Is tarot a woman's domain?

[ferrous]

I have a question for you all. I've not been involved with tarot long enough to get a good idea of who or what types of people are interested in it & drawn to it, so I want to ask you all what you think.

Is tarot a woman's domain? Are there just as many men interested in it or only a few compared to the number of women? I went to the Time Out for Tarot meeting today (which was wonderful. Thank you CreativeFire for organising it!) & there was only one man amongst ten or so women.

Generally speaking, more women tend to be intuitive & in touch with their spirituality & emotions than men (I'm not men bashing at all, I'm just giving generalisations) so does this mean that women tend to be more attracted to tarot since it is quite an intuitive thing?

In your experience, mixing with other tarot enthusiasts, have you found just as many men as women, or far less men?

[katie_here]

but I bet there are as many men who would like their cards read. I once mentioned that I liked to do horoscope profiles in the pub and three men asked me immediately to draw up their horoscopes for them. I've not mentioned the Tarot to them, but I did it once for my nephew and his friend and they had a queue of their mates to have their cards read (mostly boys!).

I think more men would be interested if they weren't as bothered of what other men might say. (men are renowned for teasing each other!). :-)

[jmd]

I was recently invited to give a talk on Tarot to a men-only Masonically restricted Rosicrucian Society (SRIA) - to which I will again give a different but open talk in August. The first had only men (as it was restricted), the second will have, I presume, far more men than women.

At Melbourne's Tarot Café, however, there are generally far more women than men (only, on average, four of five men).

I do not think it is the interest in Tarot per se, but the ways in which it may be talked about and communicated. Both the titles 'Tarot Café' and 'Time Out for Tarot' have a far more feminine aspect to them.

If I look at the (Tarot) books on my shelves, I note that there are more masculine authors than feminine - again, undoubtedly partly a reflection of myself as man...

[hedgecub]

At the Beltane Bash in London, 3 out of the 4 readers there were men.

Just judging from my overall impression, there are probably more women than men interested in tarot, but there are still plenty of men. Male tarot readers are not an endangered species ;)

. o O (If they were an endangered species, would we female tarot readers have to round them up and start an emergency breeding program? }) )

[SongDeva]

Yes, it is a woman's domain.
All men should stop reading, now.

JMD, hand over ALL your decks, immediately.
I'll pm you with my address.

[contrascarpe]

Originally posted by ferrous

Generally speaking, more women tend to be intuitive & in touch with their spirituality & emotions than men (I'm not men bashing at all, I'm just giving generalisations) so does this mean that women tend to be more attracted to tarot since it is quite an intuitive thing?


Hmmm, if a man were to make a generalization about a woman, we would be in deep doodoo. Hehe.

I don't think women are any more intuitive than men, but I believe they choose to tap into it more than men do. Personally, I find myself very much in touch with all the things you list, but I do know that I am an exception. That is probably why most of my best friends throughout life have been women (and yes, I am straight .... ask Gardener).

Oh, and there is another thread about male readers:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22452

Dan

[SongDeva]

Originally posted by contrascarpe96
I don't think women are any more intuitive than men, but I believe they choose to tap into it more than men do. Personally, I find myself very much in touch with all the things you list, but I do know that I am an exception. That is probably why most of my best friends throughout life have been women (and yes, I am straight .... ask Gardener).

Dan


Contrascarpe, you'll need to hand over your decks as well,
but keep the ones I have already.

Sd

[dadsnook2000]

SongDeva, talk about being aggressive. As if you didn't have enough decks already. Hey, list, this here SongDeva is a true, has-it-bad TARAHOLIC. Either that or she is planning to open up the worlds largest tarot deck supply outlet.

So, don't send her any decks. Advise Tarot Garden and other establishments to stop filling her frequent orders for more decks. She needs help. Dave.

[Umbrae]

Try this one: It’s our perception that women are more intuitive and/or perceptive than men; fueled by a media bias, and worn-out Victorian ethics and values.

Tarot is not a woman’s domain. It is a domain of humanity – and reaches beyond gender and age.

Don’t even think about it SongDeva…

[DarkElectric]

I think tarot is for everybody.

It used to be the domain of Hippies, Gypsies and those known as as "Odd People"; At least around here. (These so called "Odd People" were both male and female, and is the way folks with alternative beliefs have been traditionally referred to in my small, provincial city for as long as I can remember. I'm an "Odd People". I'm very proud of that.)

I think it's merely a question of the information concerning what tarot is about becoming common knowledge.
As more people learn about it, I think more people of both genders will be attracted to it.

When I mention the fact that I read to the guys I know, every one so far has expressed interest in what I have to say about it, and some of them ask for a reading!

I also think that many men might be selling their own intuitive capacities short, and believing that they have less intuition than women, less sensitivity, stuff like that, which I think is a myth.
Maybe some men are less sensitive or intuitive. But I've met women who are like that too. I think our culture tries to impress false standards of "gender appropriate" behaviour on people, but that is breaking down now (thank the Gods) and men as well as women are freeing themselves from the damage of a sexist paradigm~ ie: what women and men are "SUPPOSED" to be. You are what you is.

But Deva, that's a great way of getting some new decks...If it works! (Some of them may be onto the grand scheme already...)

[mercenary30]

It is interesting because the book Tarot of the Bohemians, by Papus spends a HUGE amount of time going through the formulas which Papus believed forms the basis of tarot. After hundreds of pages of these mathmatical and philosophical details, he has a section for divination using tarot. Which he immediatly dedicates to the women, which he, in his Victorian age of thinking, thinks simplifiys the use of tarot cards to something they may understand.........

I am so glad I that those thought patterns don't exist in TOO many places in this world any more..........

[DeLani]

I agree - men and women both have the capacity for intuition and empathy, but our cultural bias is more encoraging (or at least more tolerant) of women intuitives. Of course, thanks to sexism, a male Tarot reader/psychic/whatever is often given much more respect (and money) than a female one.
Here in the South, there are a LOT more female readers than male ones. Again, I put this squarely at the feet of gender bias.

[tao51]

there tends to be more women readers than men. But, I do not think there should be a difference based on gender. --Tao

[SongDeva]

Originally posted by dadsnook2000
SongDeva, talk about being aggressive. As if you didn't have enough decks already. Hey, list, this here SongDeva is a true, has-it-bad TARAHOLIC. Either that or she is planning to open up the worlds largest tarot deck supply outlet.

So, don't send her any decks. Advise Tarot Garden and other establishments to stop filling her frequent orders for more decks. She needs help. Dave.


I have never ordered from Tarot Garden, but I'm sorry to be cut off now. This means I'll simply have to sneak into your house, and then Umbrae's, to steal your decks.

The plane fares are gonna be killer. I better take up a collection.

[ferrous]

Originally posted by DarkElectric
I think tarot is for everybody.
[.. snip ..]
I also think that many men might be selling their own intuitive capacities short, and believing that they have less intuition than women, less sensitivity, stuff like that, which I think is a myth.
Maybe some men are less sensitive or intuitive. But I've met women who are like that too. I think our culture tries to impress false standards of "gender appropriate" behaviour on people, but that is breaking down now (thank the Gods) and men as well as women are freeing themselves from the damage of a sexist paradigm~ ie: what women and men are "SUPPOSED" to be. You are what you is.
Thank you, everyone, for not thinking I was men-bashing. I appreciate it. DarkElectric, I think you make a very valid point. Our current 'westernised' culture often does bill men as the insentitive oaf & a lot of men seem to buy into that.
Originally posted by DeLani
I agree - men and women both have the capacity for intuition and empathy, but our cultural bias is more encoraging (or at least more tolerant) of women intuitives. Of course, thanks to sexism, a male Tarot reader/psychic/whatever is often given much more respect (and money) than a female one.
Who 'sets' these damn biases & rules, anyway, is what I'd like to know?! Let's take them out & lynch them! ;)
Originally posted by DeLani
Here in the South, there are a LOT more female readers than male ones. Again, I put this squarely at the feet of gender bias.
Interesting. Not that I've been to many tarot readers (or clairvoyants, etc) myself, but I was under the impression that most around here (Australia) were female. Then again, maybe that's the impression given to me by the mass media. :confused:

[Sillanza]

I haven't been to any tarot gatherings of any kind yet (just haven't looked one up), but most other tarot readers I have met are women. However, just as many men as women ask me to read for them, and are just as interested in the interpretations of the cards.

I'm pretty sure they're not just looking at my rack ...

[ferrous]

Originally posted by Sillanza
I'm pretty sure they're not just looking at my rack ...
rotfl!!!!! :D

[tao51]

Originally posted by Sillanza
I haven't been to any tarot gatherings of any kind yet (just haven't looked one up), but most other tarot readers I have met are women. However, just as many men as women ask me to read for them, and are just as interested in the interpretations of the cards.

I'm pretty sure they're not just looking at my rack ...

Thanks for my morning dose of humor! Best wishes--Tao

[DarkElectric]

If I read at a festival or faire, I make sure there's lots of jewelery on my rack. That way I know what they're looking at. :P

[mercenary30]

I pay much more attention to the spread than I do the rack....hehehe :)

[DarkElectric]

Oh Merc!
Are you by any chance a Rorhig or Voyager man? There's just something about a big deck.....

[WolfSpirit]

Originally posted by jmd
I do not think it is the interest in Tarot per se, but the ways in which it may be talked about and communicated. Both the titles 'Tarot Café' and 'Time Out for Tarot' have a far more feminine aspect to them.


Maybe you should have a tarot pub, have some beer mats with images of tarot cards etc. to make tarot more attractive to men - and I would like it too, and I'm female.

[purple_scorp]

Originally posted by hedgecub
(If they were an endangered species, would we female tarot readers have to round them up and start an emergency breeding program? }) )

*would all available females of child-bearing age, please move to the front of the queue? (and line up behind hedgecub???)*

You were volunteering, I take it???? If you lived in Australia, at least you'd be eligible for the $3,000 baby grant that came in on 1 July.

BTW, Ferrous, I went to a psychic fair that was on the Mornington Peninsula and there were male readers there (well there was at least one). Hey, JMD, was that you by any chance? If so, I know what you look like. LOL.

Cheers

purple_scorp

[AmbitiousMind]

I'm male.

And none of my male friends are interested in learning tarot and think its odd that I read. And for the most part, we, as a group of guys, don't talk intimately about anything other than the newest upgrade we got for our paintgun or how the Lakers are doing or what new stock to add to our portfolio... you know... 'manly' things.

Am I saying tarot isn't manly? Well, maybe it isn't considering the straight sensitive, metro-sexual man has or is finding his 'feminine side'. But its not gender based. Just prefered by a specific gender.

Tarot is a sensitive activity. The High Priestess alone represents this characteristic. Unless a man wants to find his intuitive side, he probably won't be interested in tarot.

This is far from saying a 'manly man' cannot read tarot. They can. And can probably find that 'feminine side' if they did learn. But do they want to? Probably not.

Any single women out there looking to find that perfect man? Find one that can read tarot.

[SongDeva]

Originally posted by DarkElectric
Oh Merc!
Are you by any chance a Rorhig or Voyager man? There's just something about a big deck.....


DE, you slay me!
But remember, men with little decks can frequently read just as well, if not better.

[contrascarpe]

Originally posted by DarkElectric
Oh Merc!
Are you by any chance a Rorhig or Voyager man? There's just something about a big deck.....

Hehe ...

Truth be told, I am a Rohrig man (and enjoy the Voyager as well).

Advancing this discussion, I noticed something on Friday.....

I did three readings on Friday at the metaphysical shop I work at ..... during one of the readings, I had a "Eureka" moment. I realized that all of my readings thus far except for one have been for women (and the odd one out was for a baby, but that is another story). I found a pattern to all my readings - most are more concerned with relationship issues.

During my second reading, I realized that the women I was reading for actually were enjoying the fact that I could bring the male perspective to their reading .... in other words, they were being counselled by someone who actually understood the gender that so confused them. I actually became so bold as to mention this to the seeker - that I bring a male's perspective to her dilemma and she agreed that it was what she needed.

I used to think that women would be uncomfortable with a man reading for them, but I do not feel that way anymore. I am finding if I bring a calm, caring attitude to their reading (which is my style anyway), it can lead to positive results.

Dan

[DarkElectric]

I have had several readings from guys, and was delighted by their perspective on things. I can't describe the way in which the readings were different, it was subtle. However, I did notice that both of the local gentlemen who read for me used the Thoth deck (interesting) and gave awesome readings. In my experience, many (but not all) of the men who read use the Thoth. I wonder if that could be considered a "Manly" deck, being developed by Crowley and all? Even though Lady Frieda drew it, apparently every card was either approved,(or not,) by Crowley.
Given the stories as to his temperment and legendary vicissitudes, I'm sure that must have been quite a challenge for Lady Frieda. Great Work indeed.
However, I own a Thoth too. I absolutely love it :)

Dan, I hope you would be amenable to reading for me sometime. I think that would be really cool!
Maybe if we all can get together for the tarot group? Please, please? :P

And Deva, you are absolutely right! The skill those men have with their decks is amazing! It goes to prove that a deck in the hand is worth two on the shelf. Or something like that. (Oooooo...)

[Cerulean]

...some of the supposed Italian tarocchi poetry about courtly love and the assignment of ladies names with card virtues and vanities (before 1500) were composed by men for the pleasure of their mixed company (women and men) card games...in a few texts, one gets the idea that Maria Bianca was the mother of all tarots from early on...

It's true the more published writers and artists of those past days were men, so the poetic outbursts were recorded by men...but early paintings show women also playing cards.

The beginning of a mixed tarot interaction included men and women...but over hundreds of years, the gaming and divination aspects fell into different spheres of interest. I better not stretch this out any farther--I just welcome the interest of the individual soul who likes to combine their tarot with their life path these days.

Best wishes,

Cerulean Mari

[contrascarpe]

Originally posted by DarkElectric
Dan, I hope you would be amenable to reading for me sometime. I think that would be really cool!
Maybe if we all can get together for the tarot group? Please, please? :P

DarkElectric -

Anytime!!!! Hopefully Ms. SongDeva has some ideas when the next meeting will be (although I have been rather difficult on her, with the days she has chosen butting heads with my schedule).

Dan

[BoPeep]

Originally posted by AmbitiousMind

Am I saying tarot isn't manly? Well, maybe it isn't considering the straight sensitive, metro-sexual man has or is finding his 'feminine side'. But its not gender based. Just prefered by a specific gender.
Are you saying that women PREFER tarot? I'm not sure that this is entirely true. I know several men - who don't read, but are very interested in the readings. In fact, I'm pretty sure that if anyone ever asked them about it they would say that they are just 'humoring' me or something. They keep coming to me with questions though.


Any single women out there looking to find that perfect man? Find one that can read tarot.

And there's the rub. Single women looking for the perfect man. Women tend to want that 'sensitive' man in their fantasies, but in reality women tend toward the 'manly men'.

I think that this forces men into trying to be more 'manly' for the sake of getting a woman. Please don't take this to be any kind of pontification about how men are only after one thing - that isn't the point. My point is that human beings yearn for companionship - we are social creatures and physically need that interraction [did you know that we can and do become sick if we don't have 'touch'?] - and our genetics dictate 'survival of the species'. Both men and women 'show' different aspects of their personalities. Men believe they should be manly, and women believe they should be 'feminine'. That's just the way we are.

Did I make a point or just ramble? :) In any case.. off my soapbox now.
Bo

[Red Emma]

Originally posted by hedgecub
. o O (If they were an endangered species, would we female tarot readers have to round them up and start an emergency breeding program? }) )

Sounds like fun. Where do we sign up?

[Umbrae]

Not only is Tarot a Manly domain for Manly Men, finally there are decks that sway away from the ‘female cards are good, male cards are bad, earth goddess don’t have a penis’ scene.ROFLPP

A couple examples of decks for Manly Men.

The Alcohol Tarot (http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/alcohol/): Although not strictly a Man’s deck, it does lean into the masculine (which incorporates the High Priestess just fine, doan-cha know).

The Tarot of Baseball (http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/baseball/): To this day, one of the best readings I’ve ever had came from HOLMES, who used this deck (perhaps he knows my love of Baseball). Thanks again buddy…you rock.

Then there is the very Manly, Tarocco dei Giardini di Priapo ( http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/giardini-di-priapo/).

Further, Voyager is sized for a man’s hands (LOL), and does not contain overtly feminist overtones. Love it, use it. BTW: Size does matter…

:smoker:

[Cerulean]

Primal or Prime Male...so that is why the Knapp-Hall Tarot in its original form is so sought after, it's the original size....that explains his book also, the "Secret of All Ages".

By the way, I do have many tarot gentlemen friends who will agree with you about it being "...a Manly domain for Manly Men." They adore the oversize Cosmic Tribe Tarot as well.

Thanks for the giggles...

Cerulean Mari

[Diana]

As far as I can figure out from all the studies on the left brain/right brain... it seems that women do use their right brain (intuititive) side more than men do. And men seem to use their left brain (rational) more.

Which obviously doesn't mean that Tarot is a woman's domain or a man's domain. It does explain though why there are more women readers... and so many men who write books, or design cards and study it from a more logical rational point of view.

All the seminars I have gone to have as participants (ie. those in the audience) between 90 and 100% female, .... and the speakers have been about 90% male.

The books I have on Tarot that I find really interesting, the majority are written by men.

[Moongold]

Is tarot a woman's domain?
I have a question for you all. I've not been involved with tarot long enough to get a good idea of who or what types of people are interested in it & drawn to it, so I want to ask you all what you think.

Is tarot a woman's domain? Are there just as many men interested in it or only a few compared to the number of women?

Generally speaking, more women tend to be intuitive & in touch with their spirituality & emotions than men (I'm not men bashing at all, I'm just giving generalisations) so does this mean that women tend to be more attracted to tarot since it is quite an intuitive thing?

In your experience, mixing with other tarot enthusiasts, have you found just as many men as women, or far less men?
Greetings Ferrous, and welcome to another Australian. I’m curious about the name and wonder whether you work in the minerals or geological industries… Haha! If people knew Northern Australia, that’s not such an odd question.

You seem to be asking a few questions here. How to sift them, and how to answer?

My experience has been that women do tend to be more intuitive than men but whether this is a consequence of biological or culturally constructed difference, I don’t know. It is probably a little of both. In the West we tend to separate religion, spirituality and the more abstract qualities of being from ordinary life.

My understanding is that Tarot is primarily a western practice at the moment and not a very large one at that. I guess that in other cultures, and even other parts of our own communities that we may not know about, there are most interesting and different spiritual and divining practices occurring quite naturally. Tarot is a very small part of all this. I have a sense that men and women in cultures very different to our own have their own very real sense and practice of spirituality. And there are many men in this culture who do as well - maybe just not in Tarot.

While Australian society is as it is I think you are going to come across more women actively pursuing an interest in the Tarot. Probably the same cultural, social and economic values that make us who we are predominate in most western countries. You’d probably find fewer men interested in Tarot in the USA, UK and Europe as well. At least at the moment.. Look at Aeclectic, for example. Almost certainly most of the registered and active members are women. I’m not attaching any value to that but simply saying that’s how it is.

Some of our best and most creative contemporary Tarot scholars and artists have been women, and I think it is just great that this one milieu in which women are freely celebrated and have the opportunity to excel. There seems to be lots of space for creative exploration for all genders and all kinds of people in the world of tarot. Deo gratias :)

It certainly has not always been the case. Pixie Colman Smith of Rider Wait Smith fame is a good example of one distinguished Tarot artist and mystic who received little contemporary recognition for her work.

[lawguy51]

I was just at a Tarot seminar with about 18 people attending. There were 4 men in the crowd, which included the seminar organizer. That ratio works for me! So I say, manly men, stay away....you'll hate it, you really, really will....;)


Lawguy51

[jmd]

Lawguy52 (;)), I concur... absolutely, without reservation... :)

[laura_borealis]

Originally posted by WolfSpirit
Maybe you should have a tarot pub, have some beer mats with images of tarot cards etc. to make tarot more attractive to men - and I would like it too, and I'm female.

Yes, the Tarot Pub! I'd love that.

Though in my college town, it would probably the Tarot Sports Bar.... :P

[Eco74]

"Hey, did you SEE the way he scored that goal? He absolutely broke their defences down! It was like they were nothing but moths or something.."

"Yeah, this guy is like The Tower you know, just breaking down the defences of the opposite team and BAM they're scattered like the stoneblocks on that card, you know the one with the lightningbolt.."

"I so see it dude.. And that goalie, he like totally missed it cause he's just seeing things he wants to see. It's like he's moonstruck and can't see where the ball is really going so he just hopes he's going in the right direction.."

"Yeah dude.. That is a totally awsome way of putting it.."

"Hey, want another beer?"

"Sure, lets have another couple of those Emperor ales. They sure make you feel good, don't they?"

"Yup, like your on top of the world.. See that World-card over there? I'd sure like to be on top of her..."

"Duuuude, that's just Fools-talk. Like that would ever happen.."

[lawguy51]

Originally posted by Eco74
"Hey, did you SEE the way he scored that goal? He absolutely broke their defences down! It was like they were nothing but moths or something.."


Two minutes for high sticking....errr...5 of Wanding!

Lawguy51

[lawguy51]

Originally posted by jmd
Lawguy52 (;)), I concur... absolutely, without reservation... :)
53 now :(

Lawgeezer

[Shalott]

quote:Originally posted by jmd
Lawguy52 (), I concur... absolutely, without reservation...


53 now

Lawgeezer
(Even jmd is allowed 1 mistake a year...;) )

I think western society puts a LOT of pressure on men to fit into a very specific little mold, one that doesn't allow for much exploration of emotions, intuition, etc., basically the internal realm. I was pleasantly surprised to find that there's a healthy number of men here on the board.

I've also had very involved conversations with a male friend who was studying to be a psychologist, specifically family therapy, and there was a lot of emphasis on the differences between men and women. There are differences between the way our brains are constructed, neither is better or worse, just different. It doesn't preclude men from Tarot, but it does make it easy to see how it may be more initially attractive to women.

I would love to be at a Tarot ConventioConExpoFestORama with 18 ppl and only one or two fellow femmes. :D :D :D

[CreativeFire]

Originally posted by ferrous
I have a question for you all. I've not been involved with tarot long enough to get a good idea of who or what types of people are interested in it & drawn to it, so I want to ask you all what you think.

Is tarot a woman's domain? Are there just as many men interested in it or only a few compared to the number of women? I went to the Time Out for Tarot meeting today (which was wonderful. Thank you CreativeFire for organising it!) & there was only one man amongst ten or so women.

Had to post to let you know that the male ratio is increasing in our little corner of the globe!

At our get together last Saturday there were TWO men in the group of 17. So instead of 10:1 now 8.5:1 :D

I sometimes think that it may be 'easier' in a way for women to get involved in tarot, in that it may come up as a general topic in female conversations more than perhaps with guys (unless they know someone who is involved in it). Probably not something the guys stand around the BBQ, with beers in hand, talking about with each other (not that I have seen here in Queensland anyway! LOL). Maybe if they came out with a Rugby Tarot or Tri-Nations Tarot it would get the ball rolling. })

CreativeFire

[kryztyna]

Hi CreativeFire,
Having a giggle at your reference to a tri-nations deck. I was doing a reading while the final was being played and recieved a mouthful from the men in the house to come and watch the game and LEAVE THE FLIPPIN' CARDS ALONE. The men watched the game and we had a great time with our various decks...
and Im in search of the Osho Zen, SongDeva if you have an extra :)

blessings
Christine

[anubis]

i m a man... sobs, i dun want to be a transexual... just kidding
how can u gals have all the fun with tarot and leave the men out?

[isthmus nekoi]

I have a more negative opinion.... I think the reason why there are more women in the tarot world is b/c tarot is a marginalized study. It's not taken seriously - it's party tricks and all girls sleepover material to most ppl. It's OK for women to take an interest in such frivilous things.

In Western culture at least, women have always been categorized as less rational and less conscious. More in touch w/nature, animals, children (who either lack consciousness or are less developed in that aspect). The objectivity of science is too complicated for women; leave them to their tarot, their astrology columns, their hoaxes and superstitions...

Let the children play with their cards....

What makes a human an animal? The breasts (mammalia) even though only 1/2 the population could potentially have lactating breasts. Ah, but what separates such from the dumb beasts? Logic (Homo sapiens) of which, women are deficient.

btw, ferrous, you asked: who the heck came up w/these lousy biases? That is a HUGE question, but if you want to put the time into tapping into the answer, I would suggest looking into poststructuralist theory and identity politics which examine the construction of these beliefs. If you want any specific names or a specific area you're curious about, just PM :)

[TheLovers2]

Originally posted by Eco74

"Hey, want another beer?"

"Sure, lets have another couple of those Emperor ales. They sure make you feel good, don't they?"

"Yup, like your on top of the world.. See that World-card over there? I'd sure like to be on top of her..."

"Duuuude, that's just Fools-talk. Like that would ever happen.." [/B]

Eco74:

Waaayyy Funny! So apropos. Enjoyed it. :D :D

TL2

[SongDeva]

Originally posted by kryztyna

and Im in search of the Osho Zen, SongDeva if you have an extra :)


Alright, who's been spreading the rumor that I have extra decks?!
Lies, LIES, Lies. :)

And Umbrae, re: Tarot of Baseball: the Baseball does NOT make it a man's deck, or my name isn't Jonny Damon. hmmm....well, I may not be the big JD, but baseball is still for girls. Just like tarot.



heheheehehehehehe

[kryztyna]

AWWWWWWWWWWW SongDeva:)
and that should teach me to listen to gossip!
Still would like it though *wink*

[purple_scorp]

Make sure you drop by the OZ Daily Reading thread in Your Reading section when you get it. :)

purple_scorp

[telcontar]

Originally posted by WolfSpirit
Maybe you should have a tarot pub, have some beer mats with images of tarot cards etc. to make tarot more attractive to men - and I would like it too, and I'm female.

I'd love that!! :D

Everything else I could say on the topic is already said, I'm afraid. Just a few days ago I had a discussion with a friend of mine who doesn't understand at all why a MAN could be messing with cards. But he doesn't understand why a man could do astrology, meditation, yoga or anything like that. Jogging, Iron-Man, pubs ( ;) ) are for men.

I think we are just not ALLOWED to do the Tarot. Not by women (apart from SongDeva, of course *g*) but by our fellow men.

And: I still consider it strange, why a lot of women cry for a sensitive men and then go around the corner to round up some blockheaded chauvinist. Maybe I should have a reading by a female reader once to understand ...

[Shalott]

LOL, I don't get it either. I'm a woman and nothing turns me off faster than idiotic macho behavior.

This is an interesting topic. There was a time when all things were man's domain. Things that nowdays are considered effeminate, like poetry, art, and Tarot. Yet, somehow, these "sensitive" things have now been labeled effeminate. And, like isthmus nekoi said, less rational.

Of course, this doesn't preclude men, but these stereotypes probably do make it more difficult for men to discover something like Tarot.

[Angel Star]

I think anyone who is truly interested in the tarot can learn it. I have bought alot of decks and my husband is drawn to the pictures of certain ones, but when it comes to truly sitting down and learning them he does not seem that interested. This is just him of course. I have had alot of men like a reading and are very interested in the tarot but from my experience to sit down and study the tarot and learn it seems to be a completely different story. Maybe they don't feel they have the time or again not gender downing but learning the hard stuff on the tarot seems to better left to us women. LOL! My cousin bought a deck and was really excited about it but when it came down to really getting into the deck he seemed to lose interest real fast. This is just what I have seen. I have also seen some women like readings but again seem to not want to go very deep into studying the tarot but are more open to trying to learn the deck and take sometime to do it. Maybe the 78 cards for some seems to be just too much to deal with. It is a committment to learn the tarot. Maybe its more of a question who is more committed?

[TheLovers2]

Originally posted by Angel Star
I have had alot of men like a reading and are very interested in the tarot but from my experience to sit down and study the tarot and learn it seems to be a completely different story.

I believe there is certainly a difference between "a man wanting a Reading," and "a man doing a Reading." The latter is in the minority.

I think that men desire Readings because they are people and people are curious and want answers for their lives. Life can be confusing and tough and will make people step outside their comfort zones to seek answers - EVEN MEN. However, when it comes to purchasing, studying, Reading the Tarot -- that's another matter altogether. I really wish more men, ok, in particular, straight men, would get involved in Tarot. I say, "in particular, straight men," for the obvious reason . . . I am a straight woman. Ha. I think that guys can stand to benefit from what Tarot could provide them; it would certainly make them more interesting and add a whole new dimension to whatever they've already got working for them. In my opinion, they need to expand their horizons. Need I say more? :D

Ok, I will. Well, just this one other thing . . . I am never surprised when a gay man comes to Tarot . . . and that, too is for obvious reasons. Straight men need to get a clue . . . and women have been saying that forever, but, on AT I'm rather preaching to the choir, now, aren't I? The straight men on AT already know what I'm talking about and more than likely, so do the women in their lives. :) Hey, it's a good thing. How could it not be? :)

IMNSHO :)

"I'll get off my soapbox now," she said, jumping off of it.

TL2

[Angel Star]

Yes I can totally agree with you TL2 you are so right on! Yes it could really add some depth to straight men to learn from the tarot. MY husband does love to pull cards and then ask me what they mean sometimes he comes up with his own interpretation so he is not a total gonner to learning it i guess lol! Everyone IMNSHO learn the tarot, if you want to, it is worth it!

[TheLovers2]

Originally posted by Angel Star
Yes I can totally agree with you TL2 you are so right on! Yes it could really add some depth to straight men to learn from the tarot. MY husband does love to pull cards and then ask me what they mean sometimes he comes up with his own interpretation so he is not a total gonner to learning it i guess lol! Everyone IMNSHO learn the tarot, if you want to, it is worth it!

Posted 3:11 a.m. / Is there any wonder?

GO TAROT, GO TAROT, GO TAROT . . . Hey! What can I say? Tarot is soooo cooolll. Straight men! Can I get an Amen?? Let it not be said that it's a woman's domain -- this ship is sailing . . . who's on board? GO TAROT! :D

Ha.

TL2

[Strange2]

Originally posted by TheLovers2
Tarot is soooo cooolll. Straight men! Can I get an Amen?? Let it not be said that it's a woman's domain -- this ship is sailing . . . who's on board? GO TAROT!

Amen, TL2! I'm a (straight) man who is definitely on the Tarot ship for the neverending journey. And hey, my initials are G.O., so with me it's G.O. TAROT for sure!

[SongDeva]

For once and for all, people, Tarot is for girls.

[Umbrae]

Originally posted by SongDeva
Tarot is for girls.

I must wholeheartedly agree. ONLY women can be good, valid readers. Men need not apply.

I for myself am a lesbian trapped in a man’s body.

Runs away...ducks...roflmoa

[diane drizzy]

Tarot is universal! But ever notice that The Magician in most decks is always male? :D

[ladymermaid]

i think tarot can be for man and women. i do think more women are into tarot then men. i have had told some of my male friend's that i am into tarot and stuff like oh belive in bs. i can't belive you piss your money on that stuff. i not met a man yet that is into tarot like as much as i am. my girlfriend's they think it's cool that i am into tarot they always me to read the tarot they ask me what deck should they get and stuff.

[Angel Star]

Originally posted by diane drizzy
Tarot is universal! But ever notice that The Magician in most decks is always male? :D

Hey that is kind of weird I am trying to think of a deck. Oh the Goddess tarot the Magician is a woman. I can't remember what Goddess at the moment but its a woman. Ya see their is a woman magician.

[floracove]

Rolls on the floor dying of laughter @ Songdeva!
(and other comics hereabouts)

*whispers in SongDeva's ear*
Hey, I'm female. I know you got extra decks.
*points*
See there a few peeking out from under the edge of that dresser, and couch.
Don't hoard to many...

I'll be more than happy to ease your burden a bit, just a few will be fine with me. I promise I won't give any to any feller's, but I might read for a few.
;)

Besides, we gals have to stick together. *wink, wink*

:D

[Sulis]

Tarot is universal! But ever notice that The Magician in most decks is always male?

The Magician in the Witches Tarot by Elen Cannon-Reed looks either like a man in drag or a very ugly woman })

Love

Sulis xx

[Mesara]

There are two men in my life (both very close friends) who like tarot cards, own a deck or two, and that I can talk tarot things with; but neither of them seem comfortable doing readings with their cards. In fact, they avoid it all together and have me do readings for them.

They have the interest, and the knowledge of the tarot, they just don't seem to enjoy applying it to anything other than discussions. They love to come with me to look at new decks and stuff, but as far as I can tell neither of them has ever read their cards. Their decks are more like collectors items that they take out and admire and show off, then put back in their honored place on the shelf or whatever.

[ladymermaid]

the tarot of the witches has a women magican. i also think the tarot of mermaids has a merwomen magican also.

[OakDragon]

Originally posted by SongDeva
For once and for all, people, Tarot is for girls.


I absolutely agree, dahlink! <bends wrist and flutters eyelids>

[OakDragon]

Originally posted by Umbrae

I for myself am a lesbian trapped in a man’s body.

Runs away...ducks...roflmoa [/B]

Me, too!

Hahaha! (or should I say "Heeheehee"?)

;)

[ferrous]

Originally posted by Moongold
Greetings Ferrous, and welcome to another Australian. I’m curious about the name and wonder whether you work in the minerals or geological industries… Haha! If people knew Northern Australia, that’s not such an odd question.
Hmm, somehow I missed this post, Moongold. Apologies. :)

Just to quickly address your question about my username since it's a bit off topic. It started out many years ago as 'ferrous angel' but has since been shortened to just 'ferrous'. It does have to do with metallurgy, since I have a few piercings. Although I probably wouldn't really want ferrous metals in my piercings, it had a catchier ring to it than 'surgical steel angel'. :D

[tmgrl2]

Originally posted by ferrous

Is tarot a woman's domain?

No...

terri

[contrascarpe]

Originally posted by SongDeva
For once and for all, people, Tarot is for girls.

Hmm, I know a few single men in a local coffee shop who were accosted by someone wanting to read for them who would refute that comment ;)

Dan

[Angel Star]

[i]Originally posted by Mesara

They have the interest, and the knowledge of the tarot, they just don't seem to enjoy applying it to anything other than discussions. They love to come with me to look at new decks and stuff, but as far as I can tell neither of them has ever read their cards. Their decks are more like collectors items that they take out and admire and show off, then put back in their honored place on the shelf or whatever. [/B]

I have to agree with Mesara. I do not believe that the tarot is just for women but i have noticed that men like to collect decks and not really do many readings or do more indepth studying. Not to say that no man does readings but more women seems to be doing them than men and applying the knowledge for readings. I men a man once at a magical store who said he liked collecting tarot decks and did not do any readings with them. I even asked why and he said he just liked to collect them and no he didn't do readings at all.

[katrananda]

Is tarot a woman's domain? Interesting that this came up, because I've just been involved in an on-line discussion as to whether belly dance is a women-only thing. Is it something in the air?
I don't think anything, apart from menstruation, is a women-only domain. I think that men and women might use the tarot for different purposes. When women come to me for a reading, I hear "Tell me about my relationships" or "Just tell me everything"(groan). When men come to me for readings, I hear, mostly "Tell me about my career" or "Can you really do this stuff? Show me." I don't like to generalise based on gender, but I have found this to be true 95% of the time, cliches though they may be.
Women bring a different focus to tarot than men. Not better, just different.
Same goes for readers. I've had useful and insightful readings from men and women, but with different slants.
For the record, I don't think belly dance is a women-only thing either. Men just do it differently.
Katrananda

[Alta]

I guess mostly we go on whatever our experience tells us. There have certainly been a fair swath of male readers here at ATF over the past few years. Men seem to write a lot of the books and I have had a reading or two from a male reader irl.
However, I must say it does seem to at least have a preponderance of women in the field.

[gyntista]

Originally posted by ferrous
Is tarot a woman's domain?

Let us say that we had a group of people who all wore little crosses around their necks, and who could regularly be seen carting around and even reading Bibles. And let us say you were not one of those people, but were observing them. You would be inclined to say that these people belonged, at least in some way expressed through the crosses and the Bibles, to a similar domain, correct? Perhaps they would be correctly identified as "Christians". But then, what if I said to you that "being a Christian" included the following expressions of faith:

1. Devoting one's life to helping the poor, and to avoiding making any value judgments about the spiritual worth of another human being, no matter what they actually do in their lives, leaving such judgments up to God. Indeed, following the Bible, you treat your enemies as loved ones.

2. Imagining that God has chosen you to be President, wherein vengeance is the driving force of your decision-making, and all enemies are demons to be destroyed by the will of God---with you as the chosen instrument of that destructive will. Your enemies are quite literally less than human.

Would you find that contradictory, odd, or just par for the course of the complexities of human beliefs and self-justifications?

I bring this up because your question invites consideration of this problem. You ask, "Is tarot a woman's domain?", which implies that there is good reason to think that it is. Otherwise, why raise the question? But in asking it in the way you did, you are also assuming that women's "domain" with respect to Tarot is in some way common ground, that their interest in Tarot shares some common features. And that this interest is so alien from that of men that whatever ground men, as a class, share in Tarot, is impertinent to determining a domain.

In fact, one might just as well ask: "Are men really necessary or desirable in Tarot?"

Indeed, that is a question that has been asked and often answered in the negative. The present condition of Tarot, or the popular manifestations of it, as a domain of practices and beliefs, has been shaped with the assumption that men are obstacles to "progress", especially the progress of selling lots of Tarot decks and books (mainly) to women. This is no accident, but rather the product of a conscious movement among the people who have contributed to making the "feminized" modern product of Tarot. It was done partly for politics and partly with the hopes of making a lot of money.

Why didn't they think men would have offered a good opportunity in this fashion? Because the men attracted to Tarot are mainly interested in its more esoteric aspects. They tend to be few in number because the number of people in general attracted to esoteria, or the occult, are few in number. They also tend to join organizations devoted to giving exclusive dispensations of the "truth" or occult knowledge, or they act independently, seeking out these things in private and without much concern to join forces in the search with some community (otherwise they would likely be attracted to the secret organizations).

The brand of Tarot that has been marketed, mainly to women, is therefore very much a de-occulted version. From a political standpoint this has been thought wise since occult Tarot dogma was largely developed by men and with a view of things that was disturbingly Victorian with respect to gender issues. Nevertheless, this very Victorian thinking seems in a way to have been validated by the marketing of popular Tarot. In other words, the Victorians who made occult Tarot, the Waite and Thoth decks being the two most popular examples, assumed for women a secondary and supportive role, even when they claimed otherwise. This was more because in the experience of men, such as Aleister Crowley, women tended not to be very interested in esoteria. Crowley determined this was because women possessed a quality, by virtue of their "natural role" in life, as baby-hatchers, that men both lacked and nevertheless required in some artificial way. In other words, women, according to this view, had no natural need to think or to look at anything very deeply because the surface of life kept them rightly occupied and fulfilled.

Now, you might say "how sexist"!! But think for a moment about the current political situation in the United States, where a whole new class of voters, something called "security moms", has been created, who supposedly care more for the perception of themselves and their children as being protected (mainly by men) from threats (real or imagined), than whether or not the alleged lead protector is a liar and a religious fanatic.

Is there really such a thing as a domain of "security moms"? Or Tarot for women only (or mainly)? And if so, are there domains for men called "esoteric", both in politics and Tarot, where the intellectual underpinnings of surface assumptions are worked out in smoke-filled rooms? Or are all these metaphors and these assumptions misleading and even dishonestly promoted?

My point here is that the very same assumptions that occultists such as Crowley and Papus and Waite had, that women are really neither interested in, nor intellectually capable of, handling the deeper aspects of Tarot occultism, has in fact been the guiding principle that has forged modern Tarot. It is why Stuart Kaplan abandoned any effort to write about or publish serious Tarot books and decks and instead opened the doors to publishing a continuous stream of pop card decks which seem often only nominally to have anything whatsoever to do with Tarot. One way this has manifested is that the occult dogma of decks such as Crowley's Thoth Tarot has been nearly negated in promotion of "intuitive" alternatives, which basically seek to validate individual readers' feelings as superior to insights one could gain from actually studying the ideas of the occultists.

This has certainly afforded more and more people the opportunity to make money in a subject where they would have otherwise been hopelessly challenged to discuss occultism, but it has led the Tarot-buying and -reading public to think they know something (and some particular things) about Tarot, when instead they have simply been sold a bill of very superficial goods.

So, one reason you ask this question "Is tarot a woman's domain?" is because the plan to make you think it is worth asking has worked so very well.

[gyntista]

Originally posted by DarkElectric I think it's merely a question of the information concerning what tarot is about becoming common knowledge.

That assumes there is some common agreement concerning "what tarot is about", and that it is actually commonly accessible, even to the group of people who claim to know what Tarot is about.

Perhaps the attraction people have to Tarot really isn't about the things they claim at all. Maybe it is more like the ideas articulated here:

Link removed by moderator

People may claim they are looking for an answer or the answer or even the truth, but generally, as we see in politics and religion, they are looking for someone, or something (like Tarot), to tell them eveything'll be alright.

[TheLovers2]

Originally posted by gyntista
That assumes there is some common agreement concerning "what tarot is about", and that it is actually commonly accessible, even to the group of people who claim to know what Tarot is about.

Perhaps the attraction people have to Tarot really isn't about the things they claim at all. Maybe it is more like the ideas articulated here:

Link removed by moderator

People may claim they are looking for an answer or the answer or even the truth, but generally, as we see in politics and religion, they are looking for someone, or something (like Tarot), to tell them eveything'll be alright.

gyntista:

And I say that Tarot is about whatever a person chooses for it to be about. There is no patent on "what Tarot is or isn't," and there are so many opinions, and ways to use the Tarot that I, personally, don't feel that any one of them is a DEFINITE. It is up to the individual. I appreciate the "opinions" of people on all sorts of things, but, it's different when someone speaks as though they are the "all-out authority" on what is or isn't and what others should or shouldn't be doing.

If people work the Tarot to get hope, what is that to you? Do as you will. Let them seek the answers their way. If some people are looking to be told things will be alright, then TO ME that's fine, it's up to them. But, I've found from reading these Threads and communicating with various people that they do want answers, but, they are also willing to look at the (sometimes hard) questions posed them, as well, to gain more INSIGHT into their lives and who they are as the grow and develop. I say, more power to them to do just that if they so choose and they don't need ANYONE'S approval or permission to do it.

TL2 :TLOVE

[gyntista]

Originally posted by TheLovers2
And I say that Tarot is about whatever a person chooses for it to be about.

Then Tarot must be about nothing much. For anything truly about something must be subject to certain rules or at least indications governing a correct understanding of what that is and what it is not.

However, Tarot is about something. And it is not about a lot of other things. And one can be wrong about Tarot. "What a person chooses" is really not a measure for what Tarot is about, any more than if a person chooses to drive his Lexus to alpha-Centauri it is correct to say that automobiles are "about" space exploration. Certainly all kinds of things can be irrationally abused according to the whims of "whatever a person chooses", but that doesn't necessarily make those things "about" the endless abuses they may suffer at the hands of the ignorant or confused.

For example, let us say a person claims Tarot is "about" life on Mars, as is indicated by its obvious Martian symbolism and the fact that Tarot was invented on Mars and brought here as a gift from Martians to humans. And let us say that this myth makes its believers feel very good about themselves, for they imagine they, and no one else, know the true mystery of Tarot. But, the problem is there is no evidence to support that myth. If the Martian-Tarot supporters intend to publicly promote their beliefs, then certainly it is reasonable, some might even say obligatory, that people skeptically challenge those claims, and, in the absence of any evidence that Tarot was in fact invented on Mars, to call the claims incorrect in plain language. If that hurts someone's feelings, that is just fine. Feelings are not a pass for promoting ignorance, which can hurt people a great deal more than some hurt feelings.

Originally posted by TheLovers2
There is no patent on "what Tarot is or isn't,"

Nor do we require a patent office to nevertheless correctly point out that there are many things Tarot simply is not and is not about. There are facts to consider, not just people's ignorant feelings.

Originally posted by TheLovers2
...and there are so many opinions...

So?

Perhaps there are so many opinions about the answer to the
following:

2+2=?

In "1984" it was important, for the purpose of demonstrating the state's power to coerce belief, that the answer to that equation be left up to "whatever a person chooses", the choice there being induced by torture, but it could have been bought with a bribe (of good feelings) just as well.

The prevalence of "opinion" does not necessarily mean many or most of those opinions are learned. Instead, in Tarot we see something quite the opposite, and generally people base their opinions on feelings about what ought to be true rather than any factual indications of what is true.

Originally posted by TheLovers2
, and ways to use the Tarot that I, personally, don't feel that any one of them is a DEFINITE.

"definite" in what respect?

Nobody is saying that people should be legally prevented from hanging Tarot decks from their nose hairs, if that is what they wish to do. But if they wish to promote that practice and to make questionable claims regarding its powers and traditional validations (in Tarot history), they will and should be challenged. And it doesn't matter how they feel about that.

Originally posted by TheLovers2
It is up to the individual.

“You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your
own facts.”

Originally posted by TheLovers2
I appreciate the "opinions" of people on all sorts of things, but, it's different when someone speaks as though they are the "all-out authority on what is or isn't and what others should or shouldn't be
doing.

That would be a confession concerning some emotional issues you have with respect to perceived authority, not an argument that Tarot is immune from fact and rectitude.

Originally posted by TheLovers2
If people work the Tarot to get hope, what is that to you?

Nothing, so long as their hopedope isn't pushed as a patent medicine, or something true about Tarot.

Originally posted by TheLovers2
Do as you will. Let them seek the answers their way. If some people are looking to be told things will be alright, then TO ME that's fine, it's up to them.

We don't live on deserted islands. One person's ignorance can negatively impact other people. In fact, ignorance can kill.

Originally posted by TheLovers2
But, I've found from reading these Threads and communicating with various people that they do want answers, but, they are also willing to look at the (sometimes hard) questions posed them

Here is a question for you then---isn't it possible that you do not know enough about Tarot to speak authoritatively about the question of authority in Tarot?

Originally posted by TheLovers2
...they don't need ANYONE'S approval or permission to do it.

That's really not saying much, is it? And if they do not need approval or permission, they should not mind critiques of their indifference or their questionable beliefs. Yet, they seem to mind these things very much.

[telcontar]

Hi gyntista.

First: this discussion has gotten quite off topic, I think. The topic is till: [b]Is Tarot a women's domain[\b] And not and what other absurd things you can do with a Tarot-deck APART from giving it to a man ;)

Second: One of the unspoken rules (or are they in fact written dwon somewhere!?) is to RESPECT the opinions of others. If you just want to spread your negative mood I'd ask you to do this somwhere else. Sentences like "Here is a question for you then---isn't it possible that you do not know enough about Tarot to speak authoritatively about the question of authority in Tarot?" and some others in your post are no good discussion style and do nothing at all to improve mutual understanding. They are just a trick below the belt to make the other feel small and unimportant.

As I see it, TheLovers2 has expressed a much more mature point of view than yours and has certainly not earned to attacked in this way. In your profile, you claim you are "learning the Tarot"- how do you suppose to learn without a little respect of the perspectives of others? I don't say, one of you is right and the other is wrong, I just request a little respect for each other and the third party, the ones you're talking about. I'm not a big friend of "Tarot for fun", myself, BUT:

- Even people who do it for fun are bound to stumble about some truths doing the Tarot. I think the Tarot needs neither crusaders nor missionaries to make itself understood.

- The origins of Tarot are quite obscure. The possibility that it was invented for GAMBLING first cannot be shrugged off completely- so why not still "gamble" with it one way or the other?

- YOU are the one claiming to know the truth and judging about others- not them about you, have you realized this? If someone told me, Tarot was from Mars, I'd say, "ah, interesting, why do you think so? Why not from Venus?" and maybe we'd both learn something from our conversation.

- Hurting people is never a good way to make them realize something. Making the world a better place always implies starting with yourself- the only person you CAN change in fact.

Tarot is NOT a women's domain.
Nor a men's.
Nor a pagans', christian, scientist, historians' or sages' domain.
Tarot is a tool. A hammer can be used to break someones head or to put a nail into a wall or to carve something beautiful from wood with a chisel. I don't judge between the second and third option though I dislike the first :) And as you can't kill with a Tarot deck (or need a selfjustifying lot of creativity to find a way to do so ;) ) I agree with TheLovers2 that there are many ways with the Tarot- and whatever you do with it: the more, the better
:)

[gyntista]

Originally posted by telcontar
First: this discussion has gotten quite off topic, I think. The topic is till: [b]Is Tarot a women's domain[\b] And not and what other absurd things you can do with a Tarot-deck APART from giving it to a man ;)

Perhaps the fact you see things that way demonstrates that the discussion hasn't gotten offtopic at all. One of the principles necessarily promoted in the "women's domain" of Tarot is that the truth needed to be avoided, and people's ignorant opinions praised as a democratic impulse. Unfortunately, that impulse was not aided by an informed discussion of Tarot, its history, the origins of its myths, but was veiled under a guise of mystery. So long as people promote things like "The origins of Tarot are quite obscure.", the truth about Tarot is being relegated to a minor or no consideration. But of course, so long as people believe the origins of Tarot are "obscure", they can profess belief in all kinds of creation myths and expect, quite unreasonably of course, for their opinions to be respected.

Originally posted by telcontar
Second: One of the unspoken rules (or are they in fact written dwon somewhere!?) is to RESPECT the opinions of others. If you just want to spread your negative mood I'd ask you to do this somwhere else.

Do you not find a peculiar quality to your comments here? Something perhaps self-contradictory? As soon as you encounter an opinion you do not like, "respect" is abandoned and you instead launch a personal attack, based on your perception of my "mood". So, you do here demonstrate there are opinions you do not respect. Good.

Originally posted by telcontar
Sentences like "Here is a question for you then---isn't it possible that you do not know enough about Tarot to speak authoritatively about the question of authority in Tarot?" and some others in your post are no good discussion style and do nothing at all to improve mutual understanding. They are just a trick below the belt to make the other feel small and unimportant.

How would it do that, unless the person already feels small and unimportant? It was a simple and direct question, posed to someone who claimed "[people here] are also willing to look at the (sometimes hard) questions posed them". I guess you disagree with that opinion, and prefer that hard questions, or maybe any questions, not be asked. Since TheLovers2 offered opinions about his perception of "authority" in Tarot, it was reasonable to ask him if he had thought about the basis of his opinion, whether he really considered himself sufficiently knowledgeable about Tarot to offer an informed opinion about this subject. If that makes him feel bad, that is really his problem, and one he should consider as perhaps some kind of answer to the question. Again, and in contradiction to your point, but this undue concern for people's feelings is symptomatic of the kind of "women's domain" in Tarot that has been created, and not to the benefit of intelligent forms of Tarot.

Originally posted by telcontar
As I see it, TheLovers2 has expressed a much more mature point of view than yours and has certainly not earned to attacked in this way.

Well, he did agree with the dogma you are promoting:

"I appreciate the "opinions" of people on all sorts of things, but..."

"appreciation" and "respect" do seem to be easily qualified by a but(t).

And that is fine, so long as one does not hypocritically claim otherwise.

Originally posted by telcontar
In your profile, you claim you are "learning the Tarot"- how do you suppose to learn

First, by avoiding the opinions of people who are ignorant about the subject. Second, by listening to the opinions of people who are knowledgeable about the subject. It is reasonable to discuss how one tells the difference, and that too is relevant in a thread about "women's domain" Tarot.

Originally posted by telcontar
without a little respect of the perspectives of others? I don't say, one of you is right and the other is wrong, I just request a little respect for each other and the third party, the ones you're talking about. I'm not a big friend of "Tarot for fun", myself, BUT:

You use lots of those "buts". I am a big friend of Tarot for fun. Learning the truth is also fun.

Originally posted by telcontar
Even people who do it for fun are bound to stumble about some truths doing the Tarot. I think the Tarot needs neither crusaders nor missionaries to make itself understood.

To make itself understood as what?

This isn't about what Tarot needs, except in a metaphorical way, it is about what people need. And the argument that people need to feel good more than they need to learn the truth has been a basic assumption of "women's domain" Tarot. If the opposite, or simply an alien, approach, respecting truth over the concerns about feelings, seems like a "crusade", I will simply point out the Crusades were not all bad and helped to drag Europe out of the Dark Ages. That process is ongoing.

Originally posted by telcontar
- The origins of Tarot are quite obscure. The possibility that it was invented for GAMBLING first cannot be shrugged off completely- so why not still "gamble" with it one way or the other?

People do.

The origins of Tarot are quite well known. It was invented in northern Italy in the 15th century as a card game. There is no reason to think it was invented for any other purpose, or that it was used (mainly) for any other purpose until the 18th century. And it was only then, in 1781 specifically, that the foundation for occult Tarot was constructed.

Originally posted by telcontar
- YOU are the one claiming to know the truth and judging about others- not them about you

You are judging me to be "claiming to know the truth and judging about others".

Isn't that correct?

There are truths to know about Tarot. What that implies is that there also many false things to claim to know about Tarot. And that does refute the idea that Tarot is the sum of all (even ignorant) opinions about it.

Originally posted by telcontar
, have you realized this?

No reason to.

Originally posted by telcontar
If someone told me, Tarot was from Mars, I'd say, "ah, interesting, why do you think so? Why not from Venus?" and maybe we'd both learn something from our conversation.

No doubt, but there is no reason to think you would learn anything about the origin of Tarot, since it was not invented on Mars or Venus. If you are trying to say there are kinder ways to disabuse people of utter nonsense than simply pointing out that they are wrong, I would agree with you. On the other hand, kindness often backfires in these matters and many people take "coddling" to be an undue and unwarranted validation of their opinion as at least something to be respected---when that is simply not the case.

And, life is short.

In the end, how kind is it to suggest to people that their ignorance is in any way a good thing? Again, ignorance kills. If you do not imagine that bad ideas about Tarot can be literally dangerous, this article does detail good reasons to think otherwise:

Link removed by moderator.

Originally posted by telcontar
- Hurting people is never a good way to make them realize something.

Then what is the Tower for? If merely asking someone to question their questionable beliefs is hurtful to the person, whose fault or problem should that be? And why?

Originally posted by telcontar
Making the world a better place.

A better place according to whose perceptions of value?

None of the considerations you assume should apply here have any necessary pertinence to a quest for truth.

Originally posted by telcontar
Tarot is NOT a women's domain...Tarot is a tool.

I will simply note that you agree with me in the obviously dangerous view that Tarot is about some things, and not about all things.

On the other hand, why is Tarot a tool, and not something else?

How can you know, objectively, what Tarot is or is not?

[Alta]

Please consider your words carefully in order to avoid possible misunderstandings. Sentences can often be construed in more than one way, as we do not have the benefit of vocal intonations and facial expressions on the Internet. (If you're joking, use the smilies in order to visually 'lighten up' the tone of your post.) Please remember that we have members of varying ages, nationalities and cultures.

We also encourage you to read posts more than once before replying, especially if you strongly disagree with the said post, as it may not have been intended in the light in which you are currently interpreting it. Try to give the author of the post the benefit of the doubt.

(Don't personally insult or attack other members, or deliberately provoke negative responses in the forum or via private message. This will result in post removal and/or a ban without notice.)

[Red Emma]

What we have here is stereotyping in all its dangerous, destructive glory.

No legal, ethical activity should be labeled women's only or men's only. It should be available to everyone interested in it. Each should be left to develop their skills, or not, as they see fit, as their abilities, and intelligence permit.

This should be true of tarot, engineering, novel writing ...... all human activities.

I think Garrison Keiler said it best about one of our most humble pursuits: "Doing dishes isn't men's work. It isn't women's work either. It's just work and it has to be done."

Can reading the cards be far behind?

[TheLovers2]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by gyntista
[B]
Nobody is saying that people should be legally prevented from hanging Tarot decks from their nose hairs, if that is what they wish to do. But if they wish to promote that practice and to make questionable claims regarding its powers and traditional validations (in Tarot history), they will and should be challenged. And it doesn't matter how they feel about that.
__________________________________________________
Challenges are one thing. What you're TRYING VERY HARD to do is another. WHY you are TRYING TO CONTROL WHAT OTHERS THINK is beyond me. I really don't think anyone's "feelings" are hurt because you have an opinion . . . and that is exactly what it is to me and no more.

Quote:
__________________________________________________
That would be a confession concerning some emotional issues you have with respect to perceived authority, not an argument that Tarot is immune from fact and rectitude.
__________________________________________________

Oh . . . so, now you want to get personal and speak about my "emotional issues" because you tout yourself as some kind of authority. Ooooohhhh. I'm scared. :D I never said that "Tarot is immune from fact" did I? You seem to have something to prove; I don't need to prove anything. You may have had some good points, but, I don't personally care for your "everyone else is wrong, but, me," and "put down," attitude in conveying what you think you know.

I think you're rather rude -- but, hey that's just my opinion. You can certainly be that; but, you may have to wait in line -- there are a lot of rude people in the world way ahead of you. It's nothing special and it isn't interesting to me.

Quote:
_________________________________________________
Here is a question for you then---isn't it possible that you do not know enough about Tarot to speak authoritatively about the question of authority in Tarot?
_________________________________________________

It should be obvious, without me having to tell you: I can speak about whatever I choose. I don't have to be an authority and I'm not TRYING to be.

Let's not pretend that we don't know what this is about. You cannot control other people and what they think or do. Period. I don't agree with you (mostly the attitude), I let you know what I think, and you don't like it. Too bad. I don't know you or your "issues," nor am I concerned about all that. You are who you are and you're doing your thing.

What I do care about is Tarot and posting when I feel the desire to and that is what I did. HOWEVER, I'm not going to lower my standards of communication on this forum by engaging in "personal attacks" and "incessant, unfruitful arguments," oh yeah . . . the very nature of "argument," would imply "unfruitful," with you or anybody else. Again, I did find you to be rude based on your post, but, having said that . . . I don't claim to know anything else about you.

Regardless, of HOW I FEEL, there are plenty of people on this forum who might engage in a "discussion" with you, but, I am not interested in what you have to say, nor do I have to be. Please understand that I will not respond again to anything YOU have to say in this Thread. It is not worth it to me.

I'm done. Do your thing. I'm not in charge of posts on AT; I'm just one person with one opinion . . . have at it.

TL2 :TLOVE

[ambermoon]

Getting back to the original question posed by Ferrous, which was about our opinions and experiences on the domain of Tarot.

My opinion is that the stereotypes that have been raised and discussed are obstacles to perceiving Tarot as a gender-neutral interest. Marketing just reinforces the stereotypes--because it is very easy to market to those stereotypes rather than do original research on men as a target market for tarot.

It's certainly food for though. I'm guilty of perpetuating the stereotype, to some extent. My initial market research for <some product or another- not relevant to the topic at hand> has been completely centered on women in tarot, because that is the way I've been viewing the market.

ambermoon

[jmd]

In my personal view, and as wonderfully and better outlined by Red Emma, Tarot is neither exclusively man's nor woman's domain.

It may be that certain individuals are more interested in its historical aspect (both men and women), and that we may perhaps do a head-count to see which gender comes out in greater numbers. Likewise regarding its usage for divination. Likewise its collectability... or its attraction in myriad ways.

That there appears to be more women attracted to Tarot at the moment may simply be a reflection of current social trends, or it may be that the uses to which it is put appeals to inclinations more predominant in women. Even if the later case, this would show not an exclusive domain, but a greater preponderance of interest in one gender.

With regards to Tarot's history, of course, this may indeed be better presented in the Historical Forum - but to claim that it started in northern Italy with the implied Visconti-Sforza decks is simply a leap of faith in either accepting another's conclusion without investigating the evidence, or assuming that firstly, the Visconti decks are Tarot decks (rather than tarot-related), that, secondly, Tarot (and much of the world) is simply to be explained without reference to spiritual impulses, and that, thirdly, those decks do not arise from earlier found designs outside northern Italy (which of course they do).

But I suppose everyone already knows what they say:those who think they know everything are a real nuisance to those of us that do!

[gyntista]

Originally posted by Red Emma
What we have here is stereotyping in all its dangerous, destructive glory.

What exactly are you referring to?

Stereotypes do have roots in some kind of reality. Also, where exactly is the "danger" and the "destruction"? Are you talking about these things with respect to people thinking Tarot is the domain of women? Because many people do, understandably, think that.

Originally posted by Red Emma
No legal, ethical activity should be labeled women's only or men's only.

Why is that? Labeling is what people do.

The question is whether labeling Tarot a "women's domain" really has anything to do with Tarot. If it doesn't, then people, who are interested in a truer view of Tarot, should discuss what has actually been going on and why nobody has talked about it very much up till now.

Of course, at some point, if the label sticks well enough, Tarot (or something called that) becomes the domain of women simply because people don't know well enough to question that label.

Originally posted by Red Emma
It should be available to everyone interested in it. Each should be left to develop their skills, or not, as they see fit, as their abilities, and intelligence permit.

The problem though is if Tarot has been developed with certain false assumptions about its proper focus guiding that evolution, then what in fact is being made available? Nobody is legally prevented from "developing skills" or doing pretty much whatever they want with Tarot products. So, why then has the idea come about that Tarot is the domain of women?

Some clearly think it is an accident, or a natural occurrence, just something about Tarot cultures that is more readily attractive to women than men.

But that view ignores or denies the fact that the Tarot industry actively and consciously focused Tarot upon what they identified as the "needs" of women (or that is a certain class of women) as a marketing niche.

There is nothing illegal about that, but how well has Tarot been served by it?

Originally posted by Red Emma
This should be true of tarot, engineering, novel writing ...... all human activities.

There are certain human activities, at least two I can think of, which could not be shared by the genders wiithout there being a significant alteration of the basic meaning of those genders.

Originally posted by Red Emma
I think Garrison Keiler said it best about one of our most humble pursuits: "Doing dishes isn't men's work. It isn't women's work either. It's just work and it has to be done."

Or not. Even that imperative is one accepted by people in the face of a label and set of specific consequences. There are always alternatives, until death turns off the set.

Originally posted by Red Emma
Can reading the cards be far behind?

Tarot isn't just about reading cards.

[gyntista]

Originally posted by jmd
It may be that certain individuals are more interested in its historical aspect (both men and women), and that we may perhaps do a head-count to see which gender comes out in greater numbers.

I think that was done on TarotL a number of years ago. The assumption that began the processing of this very questionable election was the same as the one you imply---that people "more interested in [Tarot's] historical aspect" should be distinguished from people interested in the supposedly warmer, fuzzier, womenier Tarot. Now that doesn't mean these classes of people and interests actually existed, but that is how that forum decided to label what they perceived as the "problem". And what was that problem? That people like Bob O'Neill kept upsetting people like Mary K. Greer. The latter decided that the "historians", as people labeled them, were trying to dictate the fun (i.e., the Mysteria) out of Tarot. What became apparent, once again, was that the "fun" was for women, and the "history" (dull, boring) was for a handful of bloodless men who posed a serious threat to the games and the incomes of people who had been building the women's-domain Tarot. That ideological split, which was more a product of image-protecting spin than any real division, has generally guided a kind of mindless devotion to a "two-schools" dichotomy of things, ever since.

But it should be understood that this came about because there was an idea of women's-domain Tarot that (mainly) women felt needed to be protected from the harsh implications of the facts of Tarot history (whose merits were mainly promoted by men).

However, isn't it possible, maybe even likely, that there are a lot of people, men and women, who are very much interested in Tarot history because they are interested in Tarot at all? Those people's interests were never considered of course, nor was any election held to determine their number.

Originally posted by jmd
That there appears to be more women attracted to Tarot at the moment may simply be a reflection of current social trends---

What trends would you point to as particularly relevant in that respect?

Originally posted by jmd
, or it may be that the uses to which it is put appeals to inclinations more predominant in women.

Examples?

Originally posted by jmd
Even if the later case, this would show not an exclusive domain, but a greater preponderance of interest in one gender.

Yes, but is that a naturally occurring preponderance, or one carefully crafted by marketers, who really didn't care much about Tarot except as a commodity?

Originally posted by jmd
With regards to Tarot's history, of course, this may indeed be better presented in the Historical Forum -

See what I mean? As soon as someone mentions history, it gets shunted off to an austere-sounding "HISTORICAL FORUM" that two old guys with thick glasses and grim constitutions moderate. Who wants to read anything there? Tarot history is not a magical disqualifying agent that eliminates topicality. It is also Tarot, and doesn't need to be alienated from Tarot discussions.

Originally posted by jmd
but to claim that it started in northern Italy with the implied Visconti-Sforza decks

What do you mean by "implied"?

Are you saying they are not Tarots? Or may not be?

Originally posted by jmd
is simply a leap of faith in either accepting another's conclusion without investigating the evidence

Why is it necessarily that?

Originally posted by jmd
, or assuming that firstly, the Visconti decks are Tarot decks (rather than tarot-related)

What is the difference as you see it, and why should one think that the Visconti-Sforza decks are not Tarots?

Originally posted by jmd
, that, secondly, Tarot (and much of the world) is simply to be explained without reference to spiritual impulses

What kind of "spiritual impulses"?

The invention of Tarot is easily explainable without any devotion to a spiritual origin or dogma. It was and is a card game.

Originally posted by jmd
, and that, thirdly, those decks do not arise from earlier found designs outside northern Italy (which of course they do).

They may arise from such things, depending on what you mean
by that of course, but that isn't the question. The question is when
and where was Tarot likely first invented. And the evidence
so far gathered indicates that was in northern Italy in the 15th
century.

Originally posted by jmd
But I suppose everyone already knows what they say:those who think they know everything are a real nuisance to those of us that do!

The good news is that both of you have an opportunity to demonstrate your knowledge, or your lack of it.

[jmd]

gyntista, I'm really not certain I see what your point is, for you seem more intent on attempting (without seeming success, it seems) to tear down rather than to contribute and build.

Let me show you what I mean:'Stereotypes do have roots in some kind of reality.'But is the 'reality' from which they are abstracted actually reflected in the stereotype, or does the latter deform reality to the point where it becomes a lie?'Also, where exactly is the "danger" and the "destruction"? Are you talking about these things with respect to people thinking Tarot is the domain of women? Because many people do, understandably, think that.'Do many people think that? where is your evidence - has some kind of study, with properly set criteria, been established - or are you merely speaking your beliefs and seeking to present them as some kind of established and researched fact?'Labeling is what people do.'Perhaps indeed some people do label - so? isn't that part of the problem, and assists in perhaps taking away from understanding in greater depth.'The question is whether labeling Tarot a "women's domain" really has anything to do with Tarot.'Re-read the question you pose - and you'll of course see that linguistically and logically there is no question that it does have to do with Tarot... or would you like it spelled out in greater detail?

That, I hope, is sufficient. In my own destructive analysis, I have in fact contributed nothing to the discussion.

There are various ways in which the original question which heads this thread may be understood. One of these is whether Tarot is, in our culture(s), predominantly taken up by women rather than men; further, whether the way it is taken up is principally as used for divination; and finally, whether there may be either culturally determined or genetically determined predisposition to this more common in women than men.

These are, after all, significant and important questions which may be quite legitimately discussed - and a discussion needs to add to previous points importantly raised in order to become useful - but perhaps this reflects more my own personal preference, and hence also preference for this forum over e.mail based ones, in which quoting is the accepted norm.

[isthmus nekoi]

It appears a divide has arisen b/w the intuitive, personally guided approach to tarot which is marketed towards women and the historical, more esoteric approach which in the past, has been dominated by men.

Perhaps readers will be familiar w/the lobal divisions of the "intuitive" right brain and "analytical" left brain (which I ought to add, are not nearly as clean cut as previously thought in the '90s). The same questions re: nature vs nuture, gender differences etc arise. However, the question I would pose is: who, of any gender, would believe they could get around just fine w/half a brain? Even the most intuitive heavy readers are engaged in some type of study by virtue of being here and reading these threads. Even the most analytical scholars in tarot must make do w/some intuitive hypothesis(es?) when the historical nature of tarot is so mysterious!

I personally think that in order for tarot to live, there has to be an element of play. Once that is lost, once that energy is drained from a system, it stagnants and dies. And as far as I recall, all humans generally enjoy games be they intuitive/analytical types, and regardless of gender.

[telcontar]

Originally posted by gyntista

Stereotypes do have roots in some kind of reality.

It's funny that a just came across a great quote concerning this:

"Any great truth can -- and eventually will -- be expressed as a cliche -- a cliche is a sure and certain way to dilute an idea. For instance, my grandmother used to say, 'The black cat is always the last one off the fence.' I have no idea what she meant, but at one time, it was undoubtedly true." --- Solomon Short

Won't say anything else about it.

gyntista, maybe you will just plainly ignore this post again, but instead of reacting to other post in a defensively aggressive way, would you care to tell us what you think Tarot IS all about? And, to stick to the topic, if you think it is for men or women or both? Would be a good starting point for a discussion :)

@isthmus nekoi: It's true that all humans like to play, basically- but as in all other mammals, the games of the two sexes/genders are quite different ;)

[Alta]

This an interesting question, and has evoked many thoughtful replies.
It seems to me that dissecting the opinions of others, almost purely as an exercise, is barren of any fruit by way of adding to the discussion. I find it comes rather close to intellectual bullying.

[noby]

gyntista - one of the points you keep repeating is one I really don't get. Sure, a lot of tarot is marketed to women. But why would the industry want to restrict tarot to being a "women's domain"? It would seem to me that an industry wanting to profit would want to market itself to all types and people of various backgrounds. Seems it would be smart to me for a tarot printing company to crank out some esoteric decks, some intuitive decks, some novelty decks, some cute decks, some dark decks, some historical decks... etc.

Why would people in the industry want to cut out a consumer audience for the more male / esoteric approaches? I think you're wrong that they don't sell. While esoterica isn't going to sell as much as, say, mass market fiction, I think it has a sizable audience. A lot of people seek truth, a lot of people like the allure of ancient secrets, rituals, and practices. At the local Barnes and Noble, there's a selection of maybe twelve tarot decks, which includes the Rider-Waite, the Thoth, and a handful of other more "esoteric" decks. The cutesy novelty decks aren't represented, and only a couple seem geared towards women.

Actually, it seems to me that decks rooted in occult symbolism and logic are more represented by mainstream sellers than other decks. We can make arguments about "men = logical" and women = intuitive" (which I disagree with, I think it's an error of definition and perspective), but another argument is how logical Western society specifically, and modern culture in general, is. I think the average person is going to feel more comfortable with a system they can learn to some degree instead of something wholly intuitive. Hell, we're schooled to be able to learn systems and apply logic. Approaching things intuitively - such as through creative art - is much less represented in our societal systems.

Again, our local Barnes and Noble and other mainstream sellers I've seen have lots of books on tarot, and stock a good handful of quite esoteric books - including the original Book of Thoth. I think that people like to believe that their esoteric tastes are uncommon, but I actually think they're fairly common and there's quite a market for them.

Maybe I'm just not understanding your point.

[Vilyariel]

I agree with noby.

I have noticed that alot of the people who use this forum are male.
I don't know whether this is entirely correct to say, but i think part of the 'stereyotype' of tarot as a 'womens thing' comes from back in the days of witchcraft, where only women were thought to be witches. because tarot is linked to cartomancy, [used by gypsies in old times; witches if you will] thats why people get the impression that tarot is a women's only business.

Also the fact that someone else brought up; men will often tease each other about something that's not overly blokey. Having said this, a friend's father reads tarot, and another friend's [stepdad, for simplicity], reads palms.

I might also add that our local bookstore seems to stock alot more tarot related goods than i would expect for a small town. our 'new age' section stocks almost more than some of the city bookstores, which says also. Our town also holds an annual psychic fair, and it draws quite a few stall holders and curious people.

[noby]

As for the women-intuitive and men-logical links, I have to disagree. I think that seeing these correlations comes only from a cursory glance at things, and it's very based on societal stereotype.

I think that most people, of both genders, mix intuitive and logical approaches to similar degrees. I know I do. With tarot, sometimes I just look at a card and get a feel for what it means in the context in which I'm examining it, but other times, I really have to study it, learn the system, and then analyze, apply, and interpret. I can't imagine there are many tarot readers or enthusiasts who don't liberally use both approaches.

And I tend towards the latter, and think many people, male and female, probably do the same. It's how we're raised, it's how our minds function. It seems that most of even the most intuitive readers need to learn some kind of system or blueprint first to feel comfortable and to build their "intuition" upon (and then it becomes a question of whether later "study-free" approaches are intuitive, or simply reflect having learned the system well).

Let's look at an imaginary couple going to Home Depot to shop for paint and other trimmings for a room they're re-modeling. I think it's actually even more stereotypical that the male takes an intuitive approach where the female takes a logical one. How many times have we seen or heard the variation of the guy going, "I just like this one," while the woman goes, "But you aren't thinking - how will that work with the overall color scheme? And the way the sun comes in, I don't think that color will look right..." And the man kind of drifts off, and the woman sends him to go play in the tool section while she makes all the choices, because we all know who really "wears the pants" in relationships... ;)

When shopping for cars, it seems men are drawn to the cars that feel good to them, that capture the essence of some quality they like - say, a feeling of freedom or power. Women often go, "but will it fit all the kids? What's the safety rating?" And if it's a couple shopping, which approach usually wins out? ;)

Then there's the man's closet of clothes. Lots of worn, torn, and crappy-looking stuff in there. Which the man likes to keep because it evokes memories, or makes him feel connected to some arc in his life when he puts it on. And the woman who says, "We need to buy you new shirts. These are falling apart, aren't going to keep you warm, and aren't suitable for public wear - my god, this is twenty years old! Can't you get rid of this?" And the man says, "But honey, that's my favorite shirt, I was wearing it when I..." And we all know how that one tends to go too... :D

And so on. Of course these are stereotypes too, but the point is not that the above scenarios and statements are universally true or that women or men are a certain way, but the idea that most social stereotypes center on men being logical and women being intuitive really doesn't take a look at a lot of the stereotypes we have.

[noby]

One last thing - I disagree that someone who functions in a community to tear things down isn't being constructive. I think it's very positive and helpful for someone to serve the function of deconstructing and picking apart commonly held beliefs and viewpoints. It stirs up a lot of thought and discussion, in my opinion, and pushes people to look at things from different angles and examine the beliefs they cherish.

The detritus of belief and habit we all build up can serve to blind or shield us from the deeper realities of our lives. What do we really feel? What do we really want? What do we believe? What do we want to believe?

Seeing the Tower in a tarot spread recently, I didn't feel dread or apprehension - I felt relief and excitement. "Something's going to knock down some of the ego-walls I've built up! I get a chance to look deeper and get closer to the essence!"

gyntista may not be warm and cuddly, but I always welcome a different viewpoint and a little bit of controversy when it's not just rooted in childish name-calling.

[Mesara]

Gyntisia's obsession with picking apart everone's posts piece by piece and his confusing and disjointed detailed analysis of EVERYTHING and ANYTHING is frankly giving me a headache.

Whether he is destructive or constructive to the dicussion is beyond me at this point. His "intellectual bullying" as quoted by Marion does lend a destructive element to the discussion, yet his endless stream of book length posts can be seen as a constructive virtue i guess. (If you try really hard to extract anything positive about his contributions to this thread)

Im all for people breaking down walls, lending a new and enlightening insight, giving a radical point of view, etc... but I haven't been able to glean anything valuable or enlightening from Gyntsia's posts so far......

[TheLovers2]

Originally posted by Mesara
Gyntisia's obsession with picking apart everone's posts piece by piece and his confusing and disjointed detailed analysis of EVERYTHING and ANYTHING is frankly giving me a headache.
_______________________________________________

DITTO !! AHEM . . . AND SUPER DITTO !!


quote:
________________________________________________
Whether he is destructive or constructive to the dicussion is beyond me at this point. His "intellectual bullying" as quoted by Marion does lend a destructive element to the discussion, yet his endless stream of book length posts can be seen as a constructive virtue i guess. (If you try really hard to extract anything positive about his contributions to this thread)
________________________________________________

Well, Mesara, I don't personally see the "endless stream of book length posts as constructive," (good description btw) but, I agree with everything else you've said, totally. :)


quote:
_________________________________________________
Im all for people breaking down walls, lending a new and enlightening insight, giving a radical point of view, etc... but I haven't been able to glean anything valuable or enlightening from Gyntsia's posts so far......

I DON'T THINK I COULD AGREE MORE, AND NO ONE COULD MAKE ME . . . HMMM. OH, BUT, HOLD THE PHONE! NOW, OF COURSE, THERE IS THIS ONE GUY . . . HE MIGHT BE ABLE TO GET ME TO AGREE MORE THAN I ALREADY DO . . . ;) :) BUT, DARN, HE ISN'T EVEN ON ATF; AT LEAST NOT AS FAR AS I KNOW . . . WHERE WAS I . . . OH, YES, MESARA, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY CONCUR!!! :D :D

TL2 :TLOVE

[jmd]

So the question has now effectively been expanded a little wider than its original heading indicates... and one which suggests very definite views (with which I may indeed partially agree to some extant - I'll explain how a little further), that, as gyntista writes:'I don't think Tarot is for anyone until he or she learns what Tarot is. And that can take a long time. There are many veils called Tarot but they, ironically, are not for anyone at all and so are quite popular.'Of course, learning what Tarot is may indeed take quite a long time - and in some ways one may add further insights with time as unlimited as one is able to give it.

Where I would of course disagree is that Tarot is not for the person until such time as s/he learns what Tarot is - rather I would suggest that the converse is also true: that Tarot is for whomever is drawn to it, and as a consequence begins (but does not finish) to study and use it in various ways. For some, this study will begin by historical perusals, for others by divinatory usage, for others by linking it in various ways to ritualistic usage.

Will each have, as a consequence of specific usage and study, some of its veils shifted - hopefully to unveil, rather than to add further folds and veil even more.

This raises of course that other so important question which is variously answered by many: what IS TAROT? (http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/learn/what_is_tarot.shtml)

Tarot is hence for both men and women, and their specific interest will to a large extent be a reflection of their own peculiar and particular dispositions and orientation.

Is Tarot a woman's domain? no, in the sense that neither gender has exclusive claim to it - any more than either gender has exclusive claim to engineering (more stereotypically based in the West than in former Communist USSR, for example).

[anubis]

hmm... I saw a movie on a Male murderer stick tarot cards to the corpse of his victims to hint why they were killed. (eg. A dead thief would have Justice card beside him)

So I deduced that there are still males who uses tarot around (not for murder though :P )

[TheLovers2]

Originally posted by ferrous
I have a question for you all. I've not been involved with tarot long enough to get a good idea of who or what types of people are interested in it & drawn to it, so I want to ask you all what you think.

Is tarot a woman's domain? Are there just as many men interested in it or only a few compared to the number of women? I went to the Time Out for Tarot meeting today (which was wonderful. Thank you CreativeFire for organising it!) & there was only one man amongst ten or so women.
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I think that Ferrous (who posed the question and started this Thread) was wondering very simply as I was "Just how many men are there out there who are interested in Tarot?" Such a valid question that one might ponder for the myriad reasons brought out in this Thread. But, for me it was simply a question, certainly no claim on Tarot by women. It seemed rather innocuous, really, in the sense that it wasn't meant to offend anyone (the men), however, it is a stimulating question; as evidenced by the many posts to the Thread.

I, personally, was so glad to see the Thread because the men started responding and saying, "We're here" and at least here at the Forum we could get more of an idea of how many men are "drawn" to Tarot - enough to become part of a website, some really serious and some maybe just trying it out for a time. (Now the same can be said about women, ok?) I say that because I have communicated with at least one who seems to just want to awaken and get more in touch with his spiritual side. Perhaps, there was too much of the Emperor in him or the way he went about things. Why or how he came to choose Tarot to do this is a question I might ask, although, I think I tried. I am curious so I may ask again. Anyway, his interest may be fleeting, just for a time, he may never be a serious student of Tarot or even keep with it over the long term, I don't know, but, I love knowing that men enjoy, read, study, etc. Tarot.


quote:
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Generally speaking, more women tend to be intuitive & in touch with their spirituality & emotions than men (I'm not men bashing at all, I'm just giving generalisations) so does this mean that women tend to be more attracted to tarot since it is quite an intuitive thing?
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See, once again, Ferrous is not "men bashing" or suggesting that we as women have more of a right to Tarot or anything like that. It is such a worthwhile question, to me, since I have known a preponderance of less "intuitive, spiritual, emotional, sensitive," for lack of a better word, "deep" men. You know what I mean. They have tended towards the "usual" I guess you could say, stereotype of what a man is supposed to be, i.e., men don't cry or it takes someone getting sick or dying for them to feel comfortable doing it. Then they feel they have a good enough excuse that everyone will understand, especially, other men.

NOTE: I am not stating that ALL men are this way.

In my opinion, it's not that men generally COULDN'T be more intuitive, but, it's perhaps, not exercised and that may be due to conditioning.

I've met in my life as I think many women have, more of the MANLY man types, who think dealing with their feelings too much, or even spiritual things, ARE more of a woman's thing to do. They're macho, they're men, they're supposed to be tough and most of all, they are supposed to ACT as though they have it under control. Not really trying to "seek answers" let alone "more questions" in what they cannot figure out logically. Now, even in the churches we see a preponderance of women to men. Yes, we know there are men who attend church, but, there are always more women, at least in my experience, and I have been to quite a few.

Tarot, IMO, can only enhance a man's personality, character, sensitivity, intuition if he allows that to happen.

quote:
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In your experience, mixing with other tarot enthusiasts, have you found just as many men as women, or far less men?

Again, a very good question for those of us interested in knowing, especially, those of us who have not had the opportunity as yet, to "mix with other tarot enthusiasts," other than on ATF. Heck, some of us don't even know another PERSON, period, who shares our interest/love of Tarot. That may be redundant; oh well. :)

So, this Thread has provided a lot of insight into men re: Tarot and how they feel about it, work with it; it's even brought out that some have been made fun of by their (male) peers for it. It seems there are husbands, boyfriends, etc. who, while not particularly interested themselves, are supportive of their wives and girlfriends' interest. I'm glad about that, but, that doesn't surprise me.

Of course, another benefit to this Thread is that we women can now identify many of you guys, whereas, before we didn't know who was who. It's a good thing. I happen to like men and if it were up to me, they'd all have a deck and not just to sit on a shelf somewhere. :D

TL2 :TLOVE

[ArwenNightstar]

http://*******.com/cartofem.html

Has anyone seen this? Did you give permission for your words to be used here?

[OakDragon]

Er, that link is broken. The asterisks?

[ArwenNightstar]

Er, that link is broken. The asterisks?

Thank you. Try this (http://*******.com/cartofem.html)

If that doesn't work, ******* dot com

[Alta]

The asterisks come up because the member was banned. It is the Forum software that is doing that.

[ArwenNightstar]

The asterisks come up because the member was banned. It is the Forum software that is doing that.

That is what I came to figure out. I am happy to email to anyone, but will only do that through private email now that I know this person is banned. My concern was with their quoting of people from this forum. However, I can see (from reading this article) why this person would be banned.

[sharpchick]

Instead of clicking over to the last page. I'd have quit reading. . . I always do when I can see that someone has gotten so far afield of the purpose for the forum that the mods and admins have had to ban him/her. (Which brings me to a point that I will post more in detail somewhere else. . . I want to thank the mods and admins of this message board - they are, as far as I can tell, a knowlegeable group of folks who do their very best.)

Back to the original post. . .

What a fascinating conversation. . . I wonder if we can get this thread back on track? It's originally almost two years old, and I wonder if people who had seen fewer male readers (at least in public) have seen a change in the past two years?

Thoughts anyone? Particularly those who had posted opinions before. . .or, even if you, like I, are newer to the board than that, what has been your experience in the last two years?

[Barbaras Ahajusts]

My first experience with a reading came from an old Cherokee man, who was a distant cousin of my mothers. My Aunt and mon took me with them to get their readings. I was an innocent 17 and never knew these things took place!

He only took donations in an old vegetable can on his fireplace mantle. He never looked at how much anyone put in that old rusted can.
He read with a regular deck, not a Tarot deck. I was amazed at the way he saw the stories in the cards. I was scared but awe-struck. My Aunt hovered over him like he was a magical creature. My mother set in respect of him. (You always treat your elders like she did.)

He did my reading for free. (He liked mom and it was a gift for her!) I listen to his story for me. I watched his hands, his face and realised he did indeed have a gift. We did move acrossed a wide river...from Oklahoma into Texas.

My point, you may ask? Most men come from logic, where a woman comes from emotion. (BASICALLY!) But there are those who can mix and mingle both wonderful qualities and with the right spirit of the reader, they end up being the best of the best in gifted readers.
I don't care who has what or where, let the spirit tell the story!
Who dominates the field? Women. We always average out big time in shopping! (very big grin, here!)

Barbara

[Tabby]

To me, I think it's depends on whether the person is open-minded enough and seriously wanting to learn tarot. Not so much as a male/woman domain. Because, let's face it, tarot takes time to learn and the intuitive aspects develop along with it. Or at least in my experience with it, it seems to be going that way. Also, I think it depends on how that person applies it on the counseling side of tarot. What they see in the cards and how they intrepret it to the sitter.

[sharpchick]

So neither of you, Barbara or Tabby, see tarot as primarily a women's domain?

I don't either. . .but I know very few readers in real life. Sitting here, counting on the fingers. . .

Four - and they are evenly split along gender lines.

[levannah60]

At the Beltane Bash in London, 3 out of the 4 readers there were men.

Just judging from my overall impression, there are probably more women than men interested in tarot, but there are still plenty of men. Male tarot readers are not an endangered species ;)

. o O (If they were an endangered species, would we female tarot readers have to round them up and start an emergency breeding program? }) )


YES....Hand over ALL your decks.......

[levannah60]

Contrascarpe, you'll need to hand over your decks as well,
but keep the ones I have already.

Sd


Don't we all?

[magik-j]

Okay,Im male -

Hence since reading and tarot got passed down through the family, does that mean i ment to be a female born?LOL

But then again some of the the cards i own do come from my great great gran.

:D

Ya have me thinking now...

[TheLovers2]

Okay,Im male -

Hence since reading and tarot got passed down through the family, does that mean i ment to be a female born?LOL

But then again some of the the cards i own do come from my great great gran.

:D

Ya have me thinking now...

magik-j: Welcome! Wow, you have cards handed down from your great, great, grandmother. Pray tell, which ones are those? Just wondering.

BTW, Happy Belated Birthday! :)

TL2 :TLOVE

[Dean]

Well i live in a very small community with a load of welsh rugby players who i go out drinking on the weekends with. When they knew i was a Tarot reader it was seemed something unusuall for a bloke to be doing, not because they thought Tarot reading was only done by woman and not by men, but thought it was seen as something that was done at a circus fair ground by carnival folk. It was so funny that they all ended up having readings off me.

[lawguy51]

In my life I've now had two hobbies/sports that are dominated by women. The first was equestrain sports. The second is Tarot. And in neither is any allowance made for gender (except petite women have to put weights in their saddles when competing on an International level :) ). My point, I'm not sure what my point is other than that most men shy away from what they perceive as 'girl' stuff and I tend to gravitate towards it. I've gone to quite a few Tarot symposiums/lectures/seminars and males are in the distinct minority and few of them are heterosexual. When I tell people, male or female, that I'm 'in' to Tarot, they are surprised, excited, dubious, suspicious....and they all want a reading! I explored this issue in a post I made a couple of years ago which may amuse....

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=30970&highlight=lawguy51+gay

Lawguy51

[Sheri]

I would like to think Tarot would be equally appealing to both genders, but alot of who does it seems to be in the discovery of it (an opportunity to be introduced to it). A coworker introduced me to it (funny, I never asked her for a reading - we just started talking about it). I don't feel like I will ever be able to thank her enough for introducing me to Tarot!

Weren't the creators of the first widely available Tarots, the RWS and the Thoth men ? (please feel free to correct me on this if I am wrong!) :)

valeria

[sharpchick]

I explored this issue in a post I made a couple of years ago which may amuse....

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=30970&highlight=lawguy51+gay

Lawguy51

I got about halfway through the thread, lawguy, and was laughing so hard I was almost crying.

Are you sure you're not gay? :P

[lawguy51]

Are you sure you're not gay? :P
Pretty sure ;) . My wife is certain, however :) .

Lawguy51

[Sheri]

Lawguy51 - that thread was a hoot! ROFL!!! :laugh:

I have always been drawn to more of the traditional "guy stuff" like cars, sports, electrical engineering... :)

valeria

[catlin]

I think tarot is for both genders but of course there are more women open or curious about it than men.

I remember one straight querent who asked me when he went for his first reading if I thought him "being a sissy for coming for a tarot reading". I told him that in the origin of tarot more men expressed their interest in tarot reading and he was glad to hear so.

[gregory]

I honestly don't believe a word of any of it (except lawguy's thread which I am reading with my other eye and LMAO over.) I don't think there is a gender divide in the way suggested.

I admit I have met vanishingly few men who expressed an interest (except here of course.) BUT - a young guy at work (who BTW is not at all gay - just thought I would mention it !) who'd heard about my interest sidled up to me and asked about it - and said he had always been interested but never had the nerve to ask anyone about it because "all the people who advertise are so weird."

So I laughed at him a bit and explained a bit and then went into town. Where there are 3 A-boards advertising readings. And all belong to females. And all are worded so that I wouldn't even go in, even though I have some idea about it all - and they do indeed sound pretty weird. And I think men are less able to cope with the weird as something to leap into. It isn't very manly, is it ??? (Present company is very much excepted - but you see what I mean... ?)

[catlin]

That's why I always think twice where and how I place my advertisements.

[werdy]

hi there
i am also male and have been interested in tarot for as long as i can remember but have not really taken it up with the stigmatism that it was a female dominent area and that guys doing it would some how seem weird if that would be the right word

it has not been till i am considerably older that i am now looking into it more.

i think as well grow older we care less by what people think and start doing things for ourselves,mind you my flat mate still has no idea and has a idealism that only weirdos and devil worships witches practise this(i coped a bit of strange and your a weirdo talk when my flat mate found a few of my crystals) ,so for the time being my oracle decks stay hidden and when i get a tarot deck i imagine this would be uswell


maybe i need to meet like minded people ,i say thats something i should look into

[gregory]

That's why I always think twice where and how I place my advertisements.
It wasn't the how and the where - trust me. It was the WHAT !!!!!!! If we want to attract the less experienced, weirdness isn't going to do it !!!! ;)

(Especially not the "look into the other side" kind of thing...!)

maybe i need to meet like minded people, i say thats something i should look into
You have met us now ! Welcome ! We aren't as weird as all that. Maybe :P

(I kind of rest my case !!!)

[rcb30872]

I think that this whole idea is just plain dumb!

Look at it this way

Do women play cricket? ~ YES

Do women play hockey ~ YES

Do women play soccer/football ~ YES

Are there any female pilots? ~ YES

Are there any male hairdressers? ~ YES

Are there any male nurses? ~ YES

Are there any male teachers? ~ YES

Are there any female priests/preachers? ~ YES

See my point???? (hopefully the answer to this would also be YES)

Bec

[la-luna]

It isn't very manly, is it ??? (Present company is very much excepted - but you see what I mean... ?)

Thank you very much i feel relieved :cool:

[gregory]

Thank you very much i feel relieved :cool:
Contrary to popular belief (Rolaids, to those old enough...) relief is spelt gregory ! You are very welcome !

Yes Bec, I take your point and absolutely agree.

[la-luna]

So do i Bec (and gregory ), the simple truth is that there are no real male or female domains only preconceptions of what "real" male or female is meant to be!
It's all a question of perception but if it interests you and feels good/natural to you that's all what counts. We are living in a continually evolving world it's time to think no longer in genders or roles but in persons!

Just my 2 cents.

[brenmck]

I think that this whole idea is just plain dumb!

Not only dumb, but we'd have a lot of people to straighten out. For instance, a really short list -

Carl Jung should have become a useful dentist instead of dabbling in all this "animus and anima" stuff. Synchronicities? - women's stuff, for sure.

Instead of all this unmanly talk about raising consciousness, the Dalai Lama should be raising an army to reclaim Tibet.

Mother Teresa should have stayed home and raised a nice family instead of running off to India.

~B~

[gregory]

Mother Teresa should have stayed home and raised a nice family instead of running off to India.
:D :P LOVE IT !

[rcb30872]

Not only dumb, but we'd have a lot of people to straighten out. For instance, a really short list -

Carl Jung should have become a useful dentist instead of dabbling in all this "animus and anima" stuff. Synchronicities? - women's stuff, for sure.

Instead of all this unmanly talk about raising consciousness, the Dalai Lama should be raising an army to reclaim Tibet.

Mother Teresa should have stayed home and raised a nice family instead of running off to India.

~B~
Good point indeed

Oh, what about Joan of Arc, or to say it properly Joan d'Arc.

I could name a few more women but I really can't think of the correct name.

Margaret Thatcher and the Prime Minister in New Zealand who is also female.

This talk is just old hat, we are in the 21st century, the way that this whole thing is brought up, dividing what females and males do is so the dark ages!! Get with the program and get with the times!!

:love:

Bec