Aeclectic Tarot Forum - Tarot is MAGIC because...

Kahlie

01-07-2004, 08:40

Tarot is not magic...

because magic gives people a negative idea while Tarot is positive

because magic gives people the idea that it does not require work to gain understanding...

because magic gives people the idea that they do not have to work themselves for the change they want...

because magic implies the responsibility lies not with the reader, but with some unknown force...

because magic is an concept that has lots of misconceptions around it, and I don't wish to have even more around Tarot then there are already are...

I got to 5 :)

Alta

01-07-2004, 08:42

Tarot is magic because:
~ it puts you in touch with that which you might not otherwise be able to touch
~ sorry, that's it. I don't have ten.

firemaiden

01-07-2004, 10:03

Fun! Thanks, I'm enjoying your answers. :D

Kahlie - I didn't define magic, I sort of left that up to the all of you.You see magic as negative?. Perhaps if I changed the word to "magical" - would that make you change your answer?

Diana - Why isn't it magic? I thought you of all people would see the most magic in it. Hmmm...

Diana

01-07-2004, 10:08

Originally posted by firemaiden
Diana - Why isn't it magic? I thought you of all people would see the most magic in it. Hmmm...

Definition of the word Magic, from the Webster-Merriam on-line dictionary:

Main Entry: 1mag·ic
Pronunciation: 'ma-jik
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English magique, from Middle French, from Latin magice, from Greek magikE, feminine of magikos Magian, magical, from magos magus, sorcerer, of Iranian origin; akin to Old Persian magus sorcerer
1 a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces b : magic rites or incantations
2 a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source b : something that seems to cast a spell : ENCHANTMENT
3 : the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand

-------------

I find no charms or spells in Tarot, no rites nor incantations.
I find no supernatural source, nor anything that seems to cast a spell.
And definitely no illusions.

firemaiden: Are you very angry with me that I have messed up your thread? Is there anything I can do to make up for it? Some chocolate ambrosia perhaps?

dolphinprincess

01-07-2004, 10:15

Tarot is magic because:

... I feel like a magical being when I shuffle and lay out the cards
.. and there is no logic or reason as to how or why they work - they just DO.

mercenary30

01-07-2004, 10:21

I see the magic in the way Firemaiden does a reading, but the magic isn't in the reading, it is in her writing.

I see the magic in the way Aeclectic deck creators depict a card. Like Baba, Chronata, Major Tom, Cirom and others.....

I see the magic in how tarot has brought us all together her on Aeclectic, and the bonds of friendship it has created, thanks to Solandia and all the moderators hard work and dedication.

I see (feel) the magic that is knowledge, gained while exploring these wonderful cards.

I see the magic in sharing our tarot experiences.

I see the magic in our group readings and the insites gained by those led by members like Lunalafey, Sulis and others......

I see the magic of discovery as people explore the depths and history of tarot with guidance and inspiration from people like Diana and jmd.

Gee...I need three more...HELP!!!

lunakasha

01-07-2004, 12:41

Originally posted by mercenary30
Gee...I need three more...HELP!!!

OK merc....you are a tough act to follow ;) (great list)
but....here are three more:

Tarot is magic because it has helped me to rediscover some personal truths and hidden qualities in myself that I never noticed before....

Tarot is magic because it has opened the door for me to learn from and appreciate the knowledge and experience of some very talented people, who have also benefitted from its magic....

Tarot is magic because...it opened my eyes again to the beauty of life and the human experience...helping me to reconnect with others as well as myself.

:) Luna

firemaiden

01-07-2004, 13:15

Originally posted by Diana
Definition of the word Magic, from the Webster-Merriam on-line dictionary:

Main Entry: 1mag·ic
Pronunciation: 'ma-jik
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English magique, from Middle French, from Latin magice, from Greek magikE, feminine of magikos Magian, magical, from magos magus, sorcerer, of Iranian origin; akin to Old Persian magus sorcerer
1 a : the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces b : magic rites or incantations
2 a : an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source b : something that seems to cast a spell : ENCHANTMENT
3 : the art of producing illusions by sleight of hand

-------------

I find no charms or spells in Tarot, no rites nor incantations.
I find no supernatural source, nor anything that seems to cast a spell.
And definitely no illusions.

firemaiden: Are you very angry with me that I have messed up your thread? Is there anything I can do to make up for it? Some chocolate ambrosia perhaps?

My dearest Diana, is not shuffling a magic rite?
Is there not perhaps another definition of magic that includes the sense of wonder - and amazement?
Nothing supernatural in tarot? No spirit?

It is all just logic and order?

Diana

01-07-2004, 13:25

Originally posted by firemaiden
My dearest Diana, is not shuffling a magic rite?
Is there not perhaps another definition of magic that includes the sense of wonder - and amazement?
Nothing supernatural in tarot? No spirit?

It is all just logic and order?

Is shuffling a magic rite? No. It is a means of picking up on energy. It has nothing to do with magic. I think one could do a reading without shuffling. It is no more magical than when you mix water with flour to make pastry.

Yes, I suppose there is a definition somewhere that includes a sense of wonder and amazement. The universe is wonderful. You are right. Right, in a poetic sense.

There is nothing supernatural in tarot. I have come to believe that it is scientific. (See my mention of energy further above.)

Spirit? Is spirit supernatural?

I suppose Tarot is supernatural for those who believe it transcends the laws of nature. I believe that Tarot works through natural laws.

One can superimpose spirit, magic, even magick with a k, on Tarot if one wants to. But that is not what Tarot is.... Fundamentally.

You didn't say whether you want some chocolate ambrosia.

firemaiden

01-07-2004, 13:51

Ah, the chocolate? no, the stimulating conversation is its own ambrosia :)

Is Spirit Supernatural? Absolutely, if you believe that spirit is something that rises above the natural world.

Super-natural - could be a synonym of meta-physical -- super -- meta / natural -- phyical.

dolphinprincess

01-07-2004, 13:52

Originally posted by Diana
You didn't say whether you want some chocolate ambrosia.

I have never heard of chocolate ambrosia! Now THAT sounds like magic :D :D

HudsonGray

01-07-2004, 14:49

Magic IS energy, unless you fall for that Hollywood version of it. It's natural energy working in ways nature sets up the limits for. Which pretty much means I disagree with all the reasons Kahlie listed--hers seem to be based on the standard beginner beliefs in what magic is & how it works (sorry Kahlie, just my opinion).

lunakasha

01-07-2004, 15:09

Originally posted by HudsonGray
Magic IS energy, unless you fall for that Hollywood version of it. It's natural energy working in ways nature sets up the limits for. Which pretty much means I disagree with all the reasons Kahlie listed--hers seem to be based on the standard beginner beliefs in what magic is & how it works (sorry Kahlie, just my opinion).

I agree....I think it all depends on what your definition of "magic" is....hard to answer the question without some subjective interpretation.

I personally think that there is so much about tarot and how we interact with it, that defies logical or scientific explanation....and that is one of the most magical things about it, IMO....

:) Luna

tmgrl2

01-07-2004, 17:29

Oh dear...Too many good ones to try to come up with more. I like the idea of "magical" as in wonder. I'm a bit with Diana here.

I think that Tarot is magical for all the beautiful reasons mentioned.

But I also feel that past, present and future exist all at the same "time."

Maybe ...

Tarot is magic because we can use the cards to transcend space/time for a little while (see there's a time word).

In physics if particles can move forward and backward equally in time, or right or left in space, why does time as we know it only go in one directon?

Maybe all possibilites already exist and we tap in to some of the alternate possibilities?

Does time pass or really stay where it is and we can only understand it because we need to reference something as "passing" from somewhere to somewhere?

I always loved Dune because of the concept of "folding space."

With Tarot reading, does our perception travel along another trajectory that unfolds before us?

I like the analogy of the a plane that flies overhead that can see something below happening...a car moving from one place to another, for example. But those on the street don't see the car until it gets to them (because it was in their past), then it passes them (present), then is is gone (it is now in the future).

But from the plane, all three events can bee seen as one

tmgrl slinks off since fm is right to scold her for not coming up with ten Tarot is magic because statements....Diana, help me out here!? The scientist in me believes Tarot works because of something real that we just can't explain yet.

But Tarot is MAGICAL for all "little miracles" it gives us through
the Forums
the Readings
the friendships it brings
the fun and games
the stimulation of our mind
the meditative flow it brings
the pretty pictures
the guidance others get from readers
the sense of love the readers get from giving a reading
the discussions about why Tarot works

Good to have you back, challenging us, fm.

(Maybe science and religion are just getting ready to meet)

t

firemaiden

01-07-2004, 19:21

Well, it's a free world, says Firemaiden, however, this was not intended to be a question about "how tarot works", nor even a question about what magic is, or what spirituality is, or what is the difference between science and magic... etc.

I only meant to offer a platform for us to express the ways in which we find tarot to be magic/magical (if we do) - or, if you prefer, the ways we find it to bring wonderment and amazement into our lives. (if it does)

For me, the most magical thing about tarot is turning the cards over - I love it when the question has been asked, and the moment is ripe. Querent and reader are looking at one another, and feeling a sense of primed drama, waiting to see if the card will correspond to ones hopes, fears, and intuition. Yes, I love that moment of "revelation" when the card is first turned over...

Magical to me, is the experience of giving the question in humility and trust over to those seventy-eight pieces of paper, and allowing fate / chance / chaos / shuffling / randomness / synchronicity and/or... the deliberation of angels to intervene for a split second in our lives. We invite the "Lichtspaltung" - the "crack of light" to sear through between worlds; suddenly, laying down the card, is like opening an invisible window...

Rhiannon

01-07-2004, 20:48

The most magical thing about tarot, to me, it that it never ceases to surprise, fascinate and inspire me to learn more.

R :)

Imagemaker

01-07-2004, 21:50

Tarot works because of something real that we just can't explain yet.

Indeed, Tmgirl, your statement matched the old definition of magic in science fiction novels--technology that we don't understand yet.

Think of the native tribes who thought a camera was magic and that a photograph stole their soul. Or the stories of Merlin working magic because he knew when an eclipse would occur so he could use it to amaze the uninformed.

The magic that Firemaiden describes is that amazing play of the universe that turns up in the cards. We don't know how this works (and some would never agree on the term "technology") but I'm content to call it magic and still keep studying it at all levels to figure out what's going on.

To use a dictionary definition of magic is a sort of oxymoronic action--I, for one, can't pin down (I can only approximate) the Transcendent with words.

Ivy Rhiannon

01-07-2004, 22:58

Originally posted by Kahlie
Tarot is not magic...

because magic gives people a negative idea while Tarot is positive

because magic gives people the idea that it does not require work to gain understanding...

because magic gives people the idea that they do not have to work themselves for the change they want...

because magic implies the responsibility lies not with the reader, but with some unknown force...

because magic is an concept that has lots of misconceptions around it, and I don't wish to have even more around Tarot then there are already are...

Its sad Kahlie that you speak of misconceptions, and yet the only examples you gave have them in it. I'm glad you feel so strongly, but who taught you about magic? It is not that at all!

Hollywood magic brings about a negative image, but magic is not what movies portray it to be. Just like the negative associations of the tarot, you know them not to be true because you use the tarot. Well I practice magic, and I know from experience it isnt negative, unless you make it that way.

And to gain understanding does require work! you cannot wave your hand and say a chant and expect $100 dollars to fall in your lap! To practice magic you must first learn and gain understanding! And you have to work for a change, even with magic. Like I said before we're not talking about curses, or wort nosed witches...

Well magic is everywhere! But out there is just a perjection of what is inside! And that is where magic comes from!

Magic and the tarot do have lots of misconceptions. But I believe the tarot is magic, because magic is life!

Ivy Rhiannon

01-07-2004, 23:14

Originally posted by Diana
Is shuffling a magic rite? No. It is a means of picking up on energy. It has nothing to do with magic. I think one could do a reading without shuffling. It is no more magical than when you mix water with flour to make pastry.

Yes, I suppose there is a definition somewhere that includes a sense of wonder and amazement. The universe is wonderful. You are right. Right, in a poetic sense.

There is nothing supernatural in tarot. I have come to believe that it is scientific. (See my mention of energy further above.)

Spirit? Is spirit supernatural?

I suppose Tarot is supernatural for those who believe it transcends the laws of nature. I believe that Tarot works through natural laws.

One can superimpose spirit, magic, even magick with a k, on Tarot if one wants to. But that is not what Tarot is.... Fundamentally.

Your right Diana it is not a magic rite, unless you make it such. But you did say it was picking up on energy. Now energy is everywhere, and within us all. To pick up on energy to do a reading means to see the unknown about someone and tell them thier possible future. That is magical!

Sense of wonder and amazement are apart of the tarot. It makes me wonder and leaves me in amazement when I read. I do believe that the tarot is scientific, and spiritual...but supernatural? Hum...I'm not supersticious...

No spirit is not supernatural. It is who you are. It is the subconcious you connect with so that you may give a reading.

And tarot does work through the natural laws, because we are on the physical plane, and they are physical cards. but the info recieved works on another plane, and therefore is magical.

So unless one understands truley what magic is, one cannot question rather or not it is apart of the tarot or not...

Just my opinon guys. I'm glad to see we have so many view point on AT. It always helps you learn, and understand a little more...than no challange at all!

Kiama

02-07-2004, 07:27

My thoughts on this...

Maybe it is not Tarot that is magic/magical but our reactions to it that are?

(Ah, Kiama, always sitting on the metaphorical fence... Tut tut tut... }))

Blessings,

Kiama

purple_scorp

02-07-2004, 10:02

Kiama, you just beat me to it.

I'm not going to use the term "magic" but I will go with the "warm and fuzzies" term instead (FM mentioned them on page 2 of the thread, I think it was page 2.)

Anyhow, Tarot is "warm and fuzzy" because of the reactions - from the people you read for (especially when you hone in on the truth or unexpected), and your own reactions to their reactions, and your reactions to the cards themselves.

But remember, nothing is good or bad (or magical or otherwise) but thinking makes it so.

Cheers

purple_scorp

Kahlie

02-07-2004, 10:47

Its sad Kahlie that you speak of misconceptions, and yet the only examples you gave have them in it. I'm glad you feel so strongly, but who taught you about magic? It is not that at all!

As I said, there are a lot of misconceptions about magic, and what it is, and isn't...

From my point of view, that's what magic is to me. Something that people insist can change something suddenly, without any explanation, nor work. Maybe I"m too scientific.

Wonder/Amazement however is something all together different.

linabeet

02-07-2004, 11:48

Actually , In my experience magic can change things suddenly, dramatically, BUT - it's a lot of work.

The focusing of intention and will, the honing of skills, the development of knowledge of yourself and your abilities and faith. It's like prayer, or creative visualization, or goal setting with just a different container around it. A container that works with natural law - not against it.

It taps into the same force tarot does, my intuition. Intuition being a place of communication between me and all else - be that time or space or energies or friends or whatever. It's only scary when you have the fear based mainstream misinformation about it. It's all good.

Umbrae

02-07-2004, 11:55

...we make it so.

tmgrl2

02-07-2004, 12:20

Tarot is Magic(al) because...

It helps me hear my higher self
It tells me what I need to know just when I thought I "knew
it all."
It helps me get out of my "spoiled child."
It helps me find my childlike self.

t2

HudsonGray

02-07-2004, 13:53

I agree, Linabeet. It takes skill, patience & focus. Nothing comes fast, easy or predictably--one of the first things learned on that long road.... To use it you have to think of the consequences that the outcome will produce too, since cause & effect always take place. And there are limits. There are long term results. We are responsible -- just like with everything else. No quick fixes. An you ALWAYS have to accept that you might screw things up & need to fix it.

But this type of magic applied to tarot? I think it's a different kind actually. So I'll stick with the more metaphorical type when it comes to the cards!

Frequency

02-07-2004, 17:31

Aleister Crowley says:

"What is a Magical Operation? It may be defined as any event in nature which is brought to pass by Will. We must not exclude potato-growing or banking from our definition. {107} Let us take a very simple example of a Magical Act: that of a man blowing his nose."

I prefer what Anton LaVey says about magic (no k). He looks at magic in two ways. One way is greater magic and the other way is lesser magic. Lesser magic is seen as things that are done in everyday life such as exposing forbidden areas of the body to seduce men or women, ways to manipulate people without needing to go out of your way to actualy manipulate people directly if you know what I mean. Like instead of spreading rumours about your ex's girlfriend you would instead try to seduce her with certain clothing you wear or mannerisms. It's about getting ahead. Something everybody does. It's something that we need to learn in order to survive imo. It can even be applied to the workplace and doesnt even have to be sexual in it's nature. It's about the way you sit and everything. Greater magic is what you do when you create magic out of your will, so to speak. He felt that magic was the change in situations that would otherwize be unchangeable with a normaly accepted method. I think tarot would fall into both camps but lesser magic more so than greater magic.

Reading his biography now by his companion until death, Blanche Barton. It was also sort of ghost written by him aswell. He talks about life as a carnie and a hoodlum etc etc... all the things people criticize him for not realizing it was an integral part of what made him who he was and played roles in the way he felt and thought. I hate it when peolpe tell me oh didnt you hear he was nothing more than a carnie and a hoodlum etc... when they dont even realize you shouldnt care. They play right into the trap his detractors set out for moronic people to fall into. Oh no, they could never criticize WHAT HE SAID, only HOW HE LIVED! As for how he lived... he couldnt have had better life experiences to support his convictions and provide examples for human foibles and hypocrisy than working as a carnie.

*rolls eyes*

Shade

02-07-2004, 19:22

Tarot IS magic beacause it is in sync with the fabric of the living universe.

Tarot IS magic beacause it has been touched by all of us but belongs to none of us.

Tarot IS magic beacause it actually works.

Tarot IS magic beacause it has been reborn with each generation to lead them home.

Tarot IS magic beacause those who would bend everyone to their will and their way of thinking fear it.

Tarot IS magic beacause it is a key to inner and outer worlds we can't normally access.

Tarot IS magic beacause it is a connection with the divine.

Red Emma

02-07-2004, 19:53

Shade,

For me, one of the best posts on the subject. It even touches me, the believer in sub-atomic particles. Much more poetic.

Blessings,

Red Emma

Shade

02-07-2004, 20:08

awww shucks thank you... and I'm a big fan of sub-atomic particals... we should all be looking out for the little guy.

lawguy51

03-07-2004, 00:54

Magic is the deliberate manipulation of matter.
Tarot Cards are matter.
The right cards always appear.
Tarot Cards are magical. :)

Lawguy51

TheLovers2

03-07-2004, 05:43

Tarot is Magic because . . .

I called, when I had no voice and it came.

Tarot is Magic because . . .

I searched, in my despair and I found.

Tarot is Magic because . . .

It can dry up my tears, a kind of rain;
Alleviate my sadness, my pain.

It is Magic because . . . it reveals it's love in it's wisdom;
Some joy wrapped up. "A Simple package?"

Charges the battery to life, helps connect our crazy dots,
It's visuals surround me . . . (no sound)
But . . . What EFFECT!!

It is Magic because . . . it brings me to myself again and again;
Even in THIS, it has shown me that I'm not alone.

Magic is as you believe . . . will show up in the heart.

It's saying: Now, go on you and laugh;
Contemplate you, a bit, then sigh;
Let your heart do the dance, DO THAT DANCE,
Find a little romance . . . by . . . and . . . by . . .

__________
TheLovers2

Diana

03-07-2004, 06:05

Originally posted by lawguy51
Magic is the deliberate manipulation of matter.

I thought that was Nanotechnology.

I once made a poll called "Is Tarot Science or Art?"

Perhaps a new one is required: Is Tarot Science or Magic?

I get a feeling of unease when people talk of Tarot as being "magic". It sounds cultish. Magical... metaphorically, I can understand. A sense of amazement - the same kind as we feel when we look up at the heavens and contemplate the concept of infinity - yes, that kind of "magical" (although I think the word is not really adequate), I can understand.

Magical yes. Magic no.

That's my point of view. And I am not bound to please anyone with my answers (sic William Shakespeare).

TemperanceAngel

03-07-2004, 07:33

*There's no place like home!*

Hmmm...nothing happened...

*There's no place like home!*

OK OK maybe I am not saying it properly :confused:

*There's no place like home!!!!*

TA mumbles to herself....*must be in the wrong place, wrong thread, what's happening here...someone did mention magic didn't they? Oh dear where is Toto and my beautiful read glittering shoes :eek: *

TA blushes :| *how embarrassment* Sorry thought I was somewhere else for a second, how did that happen?

*Ahhh yes, I remember....I was thinking about how Tarot is MAGIC because*

It appears in your dreams!

When you think about a card you can smell the smells of that card.

It enables story telling (I often think a dying art...)

It creates amazement, wonder and awe.

It works?

AAAHHHHH that's only, OK five more to go...

lawguy51

03-07-2004, 11:29

Originally posted by Diana
I thought that was Nanotechnology.

OK, how about intentional manipulation of one's environment. I don't understand why 'magic' has such a bogeyman conotation. Science's approach of, if we can't prove it, it doesn't exist bores me. Magic is about empowerment, not waiting around for someone else to tell you what is and what is not. And if people feel empowered when they lay out a spread, then call it what you will. And besides, a science that reduces matter to a billionth sounds pretty magical to me ;).

The 78th Fool

03-07-2004, 11:44

Originally posted by Shade
Tarot IS magic beacause it is in sync with the fabric of the living universe.

Tarot IS magic beacause it has been touched by all of us but belongs to none of us.

Tarot IS magic beacause it actually works.

Tarot IS magic beacause it has been reborn with each generation to lead them home.

Tarot IS magic beacause those who would bend everyone to their will and their way of thinking fear it.

Tarot IS magic beacause it is a key to inner and outer worlds we can't normally access.

Tarot IS magic beacause it is a connection with the divine.

Told you to keep rambling on another thread because I thought you talked sense - DEFINITELY KEEP RAMBLING!! That's one of the most beautiful and powerful descriptions of the cards that I've ever seen and something moved inside me when I read it.

firemaiden

03-07-2004, 12:06

Oh my goodness, what wonderful inspiring answers, enough to get me all charged up again about tarot. You all get A's. (with the possible exception of Diana, who I can see grinning defiantly on a pile of melting chocolates... :D :D)

HudsonGray

03-07-2004, 17:18

Ohh! Sticky buns!

Hope it's dark chocolate! That's the best.

TemperanceAngel

03-07-2004, 19:02

Five more to go:

Because of its' mystery.

Because it inspires personal growth and positive energy.

Because the imagery dances and sings to me.

Because it often explains what I cannot.

Because it allows me to meet such wonderful people.

Shy Priestess

04-07-2004, 08:04

There are some great personal reasons here for tarot being magic(al) or bringing on fuzzy feelings etc. (not getting into that one!). :D

I like those last 5 mentioned by TemperanceAngel:

Because of its' mystery.

Because it inspires personal growth and positive energy.

Because the imagery dances and sings to me.

Because it often explains what I cannot.

Because it allows me to meet such wonderful people.
I relate to all of those (dancing and singing in moderation!) but if I could add anything it would just be:

... because it never ceases to amaze me!

Ivy Rhiannon

04-07-2004, 13:29

Originally posted by Kahlie
From my point of view, that's what magic is to me.
I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just tried to express how we have different view points. Like I said I know from experience. Just like the negative associations of the tarot, you know them not to be true because you use the tarot.

Everyone has made awesome view points. No matter what it is or isn't I could kiss the person who invented it!

Kahlie

04-07-2004, 13:41

Like I said I know from experience. Just like the negative associations of the tarot, you know them not to be true because you use the tarot.

I think you misunderstand me. Yes, magic for me is the wishy-washy stuff, the stuff you hear about in Hollywood productions, people burning candles and wishing on them, etc. etc.
That's what the word magic conveys to me, as a person. It does not convey the same to you. I find it offensive that when I express my viewpoint, it's immediatly taken as me not knowing from experience, or me having misconceptions.

I know the negative associations with the Tarot are true for a lot of people, which is why I would never pressure them with me claiming they are wrong. It's true for them from their personal viewpoint, which is why I leave them in peace, and respect them and hope they respect my decision.

Now, if you are talking about spirit guides, celebrating the divine, or people who truly try to understand something spiritual for them as a person, that to me is spiritual, or divine, and not magic. So what you see as magic, would probably for me means spiritual journeying. The difference is that a journey is a personal experience for me, so I cannot tell anybody their journey is wrong, nor do I hope they will tell me mine is wrong.

Ivy Rhiannon

04-07-2004, 14:03

Originally posted by Kahlie
so I cannot tell anybody their journey is wrong, nor do I hope they will tell me mine is wrong.
Your absolutely right kahlie! I never thought I was doing that. We are each intitled to our own viewpoints, and I am sorry. I should have expressed my opinon without shooting down yours.

Can you ever forgive me for an honest mistake?

Kahlie

04-07-2004, 14:07

It's easy to misunderstand each other through the internet Ivy Rhiannon, there is nothing to forgive...

I only found it odd how everybody on this forum is always so careful to leave the question on what Tarot is to each of us open, and not convince each other that only one standpoint is the correct one, but when I differ on what magic is, I suddenly get told I'm having misconceptions...

But then again, if we are for hugging and making up, I"m all yours for a hug =)

TheLovers2

04-07-2004, 14:37

Believing makes it so . . .

How people perceive Tarot is personal.

How people perceive magic and what that word means (to each of us) is personal. For some, it is the "Hollywood" version, for some others it is a word that contradicts "spiritual," for some they may mean the same thing with very little difference.

I think of magic, not in terms of black or white magic or parlor tricks, etc. when it comes to the Tarot. I adhere to a different, non-literal meaning that for ME has more to do with the "magic" (as I see it) that INFUSES one's life.

The birth of a child, therefore, or meeting the love of your life, can be magic, magical or whatever, but, you get my drift. Perhaps, because of your deep feelings for someone or something you could say that they "brought magic into your life."

If someone is desperately in need of something that will make their life better or help them get back in the game, so to speak, and be excited about that, then to ME that is magic. I guess, I feel that to one extent or another we all look for and await the magic in our lives; that next magical moment or occurrence or thing that does it for us, that helps take us where we want to be.

When I wrote about the Tarot being magic(al) that is where I was coming from, personally. It is really all subjective and no cause for offense. I'm glad we are allowing for our differences in interpretation. That's a good thing!

Shy Priestess

04-07-2004, 18:14

The birth of a child, therefore, or meeting the love of your life, can be magic, magical or whatever, but, you get my drift. Perhaps, because of your deep feelings for someone or something you could say that they "brought magic into your life."When I wrote about the Tarot being magic(al) that is where I was coming from, personally. It is really all subjective and no cause for offense. I'm glad we are allowing for our differences in interpretation. That's a good thing!
Well put, TheLovers2. I've really enjoyed this thread and everyone's contributions!

SP :)

Ivy Rhiannon

05-07-2004, 10:20

(((((Kahlie)))))

Now that's much better!

I completely agree! See that is why I love AT. I have never run across this many kind (but opinonated!) people on the net. Everything anywhere else turns into a heated debate, and gets dragged out. Ehhh!

So another hug for the creators/mangers of this site. All the hell with it, hugs for everyone!!! (((((all))))) Ok enought with the mushy stuff, I'm getting teary eyed!!!

Satori

06-07-2004, 01:14

Tarot is magic-

because of how Tarot comes to be in your life and changes you and never lets you go.

because you can be silent while speaking to Someone.

because there is stillness and beauty in my heart when finished with a reading, no matter what I have seen.

because to be contemplative is to be silent, and silence is the realm of the spirit and spirit flies to Tarot like an arrow to the mark.

and where there is magic there is hope, and Tarot is hope sprung eternal.

and magic is wonder; so much of life has lost its magic and the Tarot reminds us of how truly wonderous is life.

because tonight there is a silence inside of me and it was Tarot and the Sphinx that led me to it....and someone else, as well...

when there is no other magic to believe in.

because there is a light in the Hermit's lamp and the name of the light, is Tarot.

because so many of us think it is.

edited to add last item.
I will enter into no discussion/arguement regarding my 10 magical insights.

TheLovers2

06-07-2004, 01:27

Elf:

I absolutely loved it!

Thank you. Food for thought.

TL2

tmgrl2

06-07-2004, 09:11

Elf! Lovely, indeed! Silence brings a wonder of thoughts, doesn't it?

terri

Satori

13-07-2004, 10:33

okay.
I can enter into some discussion now....so thanks for the replies and this was a great idea fm. Loved the chance to just let it all go.......10 times.

Shade

15-07-2004, 04:58

Originally posted by Diana
I get a feeling of unease when people talk of Tarot as being "magic". It sounds cultish. Magical... metaphorically, I can understand. A sense of amazement - the same kind as we feel when we look up at the heavens and contemplate the concept of infinity - yes, that kind of "magical" (although I think the word is not really adequate), I can understand.

I can definately see where you are coming from here and why you and several others might get uncomfy when folks say tarot is magic. I understand it because I feel the exact same way when people separate tarot for the occult and explain it as jungian psychology and art therapy. I roll my eyes when people say that "real magic is self discovery and inner understanding" (not a reference to any particular person). I just think "well yes those are certainly good but I also wouldn't be without the wand and cauldron if I can help it."

It's funny to know that I'm frustrated by what some people say about tarot and they are probably equally as frustrated with me.

DarkElectric

15-07-2004, 11:53

Originally posted by Red Emma
Shade,

For me, one of the best posts on the subject. It even touches me, the believer in sub-atomic particles. Much more poetic.

Blessings,

Red Emma

Sub atomic particles are definitely magic!
So, if you look at it scientifically...

"If tarot cards are comprised of subatomic particles, and subatomic particles are magic, therefore tarot is magic."

(Dark's theorum of matter on matters which matter.)

firemaiden

15-07-2004, 12:44

Originally posted by TheLovers2
Believing makes it so . . .

How people perceive Tarot is personal.

How people perceive magic and what that word means (to each of us) is personal. For some, it is the "Hollywood" version, for some others it is a word that contradicts "spiritual," for some they may mean the same thing with very little difference.

I think of magic, not in terms of black or white magic or parlor tricks, etc. when it comes to the Tarot. I adhere to a different, non-literal meaning that for ME has more to do with the "magic" (as I see it) that INFUSES one's life.

The birth of a child, therefore, or meeting the love of your life, can be magic, magical or whatever, but, you get my drift. Perhaps, because of your deep feelings for someone or something you could say that they "brought magic into your life."

Yes, yes, yes, this is what I was intending when I used the word. And there have been moments of pure magic for me with tarot. (plus lots of mundane moments of hard work).

What have been some of your most magical tarot-moments? I think the moment I found most magical, was when I had the Thoth Seven of Swords Upside down, and suddenly saw the skeletal form of a ballet costume: the Snow Queen. (reading for Katrananda about the Purple Tulip)

Red Emma

15-07-2004, 15:53

With tarot, even the mundane can be magic. This is one of my Queen of Pentacle days when I have to find someone to re-roof the house. Before tarot I'd study their ads in the yellow pages, get references and hope the references weren't written by their wives and children, check their ...... and on and on.

But tarot just peers into the magic realm -- which Deepak Chopra calls the Quantum Soup -- and tells me all about them.

Of course I'll probably do some of the above as kind of a back-up just to make sure I haven't mis-interpreted the cards.

Yeah, Magic!

The Seeker

18-07-2004, 10:35

you see, what you want to see.
you hear only what you want to HEAR.
you Read only the Part that Fits what you want it to say.
and none of that is TAROT!!!
that is the Part of some one UNDER 15Years of age.
i see only a few Writers here in this thread over 15.
and it might only be 15 years of age, just in the mind-set.
the TAROT is a pictorial references to your life long experiences, and or what you might have inherited.
the TAROT is about Feelings,, not magic!!!
you feel what you see in the cards
the book with the cards gives you a start to understanding what is in the pictures of the cards and numbers.
then you draw from your feelings, on what you see.
the cards are not Fortune Cookies. they are just pictorial references,
if it is not in you,,, you cant see it at all, like here, you don't see what you want to see, so you will not, see what others tell you, no matter how right it might be.
you can use any thing for magic. a penil, a knife, a record,
a rubberband, a deck of cards ( of any kind ).
none of those things, are of magic.
just like the knife can kill, or cut up your salad.
but really was it the knife, OR,,,,,
WAS it how the knife, was used..
SAME WITH THE TAROT CARDS.

The Seeker

TheLovers2

18-07-2004, 15:45

Originally posted by The Seeker
you see, what you want to see.
you hear only what you want to HEAR.
you Read only the Part that Fits what you want it to say.
and none of that is TAROT!!!
that is the Part of some one UNDER 15Years of age.
i see only a few Writers here in this thread over 15.
and it might only be 15 years of age, just in the mind-set.
the TAROT is a pictorial references to your life long experiences, and or what you might have inherited.
the TAROT is about Feelings,, not magic!!!

The Seeker

Seeker:

Aaah. Do you know what I see? Do you know what I hear? I see and hear that this Forum is a wonderful place where opinions matter and for the most part are respected -- yours included!

Kudos to the very conscientious management and moderators of AT.

I can't think of anywhere that I've seen people come together with such harmony and support of each other as here on At. Visiting is always a pleasure. This is a bit of Tarot magic, too - if you ask me and I'm glad I know about it.

Eco74

18-07-2004, 15:54

Without having read more than the first 10 posts (there´s that number again) here is what I can come up with...

Tarot is Magic Because...

- It brings forth hidden truths seemingly from nowhere
- It uses seemingly harmless vessels (the cards) to bring out important and overwhelming truths
- It enables whomever connects with it to tap in to an inner sanctum
- It shows that even though there is so much fickleness in the world we can control our lives
- It lights up the darkness for those who are blinded by their probles
- It can give people who are not able to stand on their own the ability to walk freely (metaphorically speaking) just by showing a few symbols and saying a few words

And those 6 (darnit) are all I can muster... Why 10? If you had stopped at asking for 6 I would have made it! *mopes*
Oh well, there are lots more replies I´m sure.

Shade

19-07-2004, 17:56

Has anyone mentioned that with it you can see the future? I think it's been said subtley (sp?) many times but every once in a while I like to just break it down.

Tarot Sparrow

20-07-2004, 03:22

Tarot is MAGIC because no one really knows for sure how it works :D

Satori

20-07-2004, 06:48

TheOld

26-11-2007, 09:25

EVERYTHING is magic LOL....

Master_Margarita

26-11-2007, 10:17

I love seeing this old thread revived.

I am smiling because I think there was a particular reason that firemaiden was inviting each person to generate 10 reasons.

By the tenth reason your conscious mind typically has run out of thoughts and your subconscious mind starts hucking out interesting statements.

I do lists of 100 for this same reason on certain topics, but 100 would be too tedious to post on a board. A blog, maybe.

M_M~

The Seeker

26-11-2007, 10:52

EVERYTHING is magic LOL....

well is has been a while sense i have been here.
and i see people are still just picking out only what they want to see, and passing over the rest.
if you want to get into the Tarot, you can't be doing that.
not looking at everything, is a bad habbit to get into, you will give your self or others a bad reading, by not looking at everything.

Magic ? ? The cards are not Magic, they are just a pictorial reference, to what is in your Hart, soal, mind & spirit. the Magic comes from how you use that information. Like lifting some ones hart, with good feelings about something they seek, is good Magic. using what you get from the cards, to hurt some one, is BAD Magic. telling them something, just to make them feel bad, is like choaking the hart. remember the cards can not Talk. they are just pictures.
what you see, is in your Eyes, what you see is just the pictures on the cards.
BUT,,, what they MAKE you see and feel, is in your, Hart, Soal, Mind & Spirit. Seeing that, and putting it into WORDS, is the Magic. SEEING,,, is the Magic, not the CARDS. And Not every body can see. But telling people you can, when you can't, is bad-Magic, because it may hurt some one, in the end.

sleepingcat

26-11-2007, 11:23

...I switched up on friday night and started using my TCG deck ~.^

Seriousness.... Tarot is magic because the most blatant of things appear to be magic when they're simplified that we can understand them.

Maybe not magic like our dear friend Harry uses... But magic in the way that we can communicate with outselves and eachother in a way that supercedes language.... and Tarot quietly translates that into a language for us.

firemaiden

26-11-2007, 11:42

Right, Sleeping Cat.

This is funny re-reading the thread. I never dreamed when I used the word "magic" that people would be taking it literally as Magic with a capital M à la Harry Potter, and then -- say no it isn't. It was an error of translation from my inner French. In French you can say, "C'était magique!" and everyone will know "you mean incredibly way cool".

Also I'm really surprised at the people who don't think it is magic with a capital M too. Why not??? If tarot is not magic, what is?

Maybe people are thinking of black magic or Santeria??? .

Maybe I should repost this question as "Tarot is amazingly-way-cool because..."

Or maybe, for those who can't see the magic in it, it's time for a new deck }).

Fudugazi

26-11-2007, 13:36

The Seeker

26-11-2007, 14:13

Shadow-boxing...or should I say tunnel boxing? Lighten up, friend :). Books and tarot are indeed magic, in many ways. And playing around with words, concepts and ideas is not just for children ;). Many a truth is uncovered in jest.

Master_margarita - how interesting of you to say that! But do you think that now I know why firemaiden suggested 10 reasons, my conscious brain might hang on a bit longer? I might do this exercise off-line to see what my unconscious comes up with, and see what comes to me from - out there - whatever connection I can establish with the great sea beyond.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

The power,, The Magic, is in the Mind or Spirit of the Seeker. Not in any Book or Deck of Cards, or any other Object. They are things you see for your mind or Spirit to get it's Ideas from.
from there you make your Magic. Be it Change in your Life or some one elses Life.
the Magic comes from LIFE, not an OBJECT. you might work your MAGIC THROUGH a book or deck of cards. but it comes from the MIND or SPIRIT (Soul if you want to use that word) of the Seeker.
an object is just a tool to help the Mind focus.
any object just sits there, and does nothing. it takes the Mind or Spirit to make anything happen.
IF you put your faith in an Object, it will surely let you down at some point.
better to put Faith in ONES SELF. that is where the Strength of Lifes MAGIC lies.
the Object just helps one to Focus.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
you said
Master_margarita - how interesting of you to say that! But do you think that now I know why firemaiden suggested 10 reasons, my conscious brain might hang on a bit longer?

Do you think it might be Exercise for the Mind or Spirit to be stronger,
and not an Object Stronger??
she makes a very good point with the 10
It all comes from the Mind or Spirit of the Seeker

Master_Margarita

26-11-2007, 14:15

Master_margarita - how interesting of you to say that! But do you think that now I know why firemaiden suggested 10 reasons, my conscious brain might hang on a bit longer? I might do this exercise off-line to see what my unconscious comes up with, and see what comes to me from - out there - whatever connection I can establish with the great sea beyond.

My experience has been that knowing the trick does not ruin the trick. If 10 doesn't work, just try for more.

Go ahead, try 100 examples of "Tarot is MAGIC because____" and you'll see. The Lists of 100 technique is found in a Kathleen Adams book about journaling called, IIRC, Journal to the Self.

I wouldn't have posted this if I thought it would ruin things for people.

M_M~

NightQueen

26-11-2007, 20:43

Tarot is magic because..it's my best freind

Annabelle

26-11-2007, 21:01

Tarot is magic because

1. The pictures make me happy.
2. I always see something new in the pictures.
3. It gives me a way to instantly connect to others.
4. It helps me get to know my friends better.
5. It helps me become friends with people who were strangers.
6. The pictures move sometimes when I let my conscious mind go.
7. It helps me make connections that otherwise wouldn't occur to me.
8. People - friends, strangers, anybody - instantly believe in me as a fortune teller, as soon as they know I can read cards.
9. It really isn't random, though mathematically it should be. Some cards never come up when I read for myself. Etc.
10. It's cathartic - tarot can make me laugh, cry, and so on.

6 Haunted Days

26-11-2007, 23:55

well is has been a while sense i have been here.
and i see people are still just picking out only what they want to see, and passing over the rest.
if you want to get into the Tarot, you can't be doing that.
not looking at everything, is a bad habbit to get into, you will give your self or others a bad reading, by not looking at everything.

Magic ? ? The cards are not Magic, they are just a pictorial reference, to what is in your Hart, soal, mind & spirit. the Magic comes from how you use that information. Like lifting some ones hart, with good feelings about something they seek, is good Magic. using what you get from the cards, to hurt some one, is BAD Magic. telling them something, just to make them feel bad, is like choaking the hart. remember the cards can not Talk. they are just pictures.
what you see, is in your Eyes, what you see is just the pictures on the cards.
BUT,,, what they MAKE you see and feel, is in your, Hart, Soal, Mind & Spirit. Seeing that, and putting it into WORDS, is the Magic. SEEING,,, is the Magic, not the CARDS. And Not every body can see. But telling people you can, when you can't, is bad-Magic, because it may hurt some one, in the end.

What I see and read is someone telling me how to see, use, learn and understand Tarot and that it is the only way. No thanks. It's funny how you keep mentioning the age 15 , isn't that how teenagers think? "My way is the best and only way....after all I know everything there is to know!"

Danica_Nyx

27-11-2007, 01:04

tarot is magik:
-because it is the outcome of enegeries between the reading and the reader.
-for it lies within every mind, body and soul of a reader
-it lets readers connect with something that most people ignore
-the cards/ readings give us answers to help us overcome our issues, fears and worries
-they can help us through the day, when all else fails
-they give us real hope of life and death
-the cards can help us connect with other people, on emotional, mental and physical levels
-there is always truth witin the cards, an honest relationship: more than you can say about a lot of things
-a close connection can be formed between the reader and cards

the cards are magik because we say they are and that is enough

serenaserendipity

27-11-2007, 01:28

...
tarot is magic...

*because it helps to unveil the unseen forces interacting within us and around us
*because it illuminates the shadows of our paths
*because it helps us delve more deeply into questioning ourselves and our true intentions as well as the true intentions of others; the ability to "unmask" the true reality is magical in and of itself
*because it helps us to clarify our intent, because before we ask the tarot we must first clarify that which we wish to know or do, which in turn clarifies our relationship on a quantum level with the universe around us
*because it represents a relationship between the self and the higher self; or in non-metaphysical terms, it strengthens our relationship between thought, desire, action and reality; it clarifies our heart mind and soul which clarifies the air around us (on a subatomic level)
*because it allows us to communicate with the spirits of others (that we are in relationship with) as well as ancestors and spiritguides (call these "potentialities" of energy and matter if you will... or extensions of the self-- it doesn't matter!)
*because it puts us in touch with inner and outer archetypes on the journey of the soul (that ancestor traditions such as Native American and shamanic cultures talk about and Carl Jung talked about)
*because it helps us clarify what we truly desire and whether our desires are truly in alignment with the universe and with others; therefore clarifying the relationship between freewill and the interconnections amongst us all (tiposwaye as they call it in Lakota)
*because it puts us in touch with our Will and our sense of Grace
*because somehow, it works... it communicates... it is a bridge... between conscious and unconscious, seen and unseen, inner world and outer world, spirit and matter, desire and materialization, the cycle of life, birth and destruction
*because it is like a magical compass that directs us on our journey (like an altheiometer!) a tool that allows us to fine-tune, discover and hone our own inner magic!

imago= the latin word for the stage of metamorphosis where the butterfly emerges from the chrysalis.
also the root word for
MAGIC
IMAGINATION
and
IMAGE

tarot is magic because it is an agent for the process of Imago... whether it is imagination or reality--- does it really make a difference?

love,
serena

mystic mal

30-11-2007, 10:36

Tarot is magic because it unblocks blocked emotions even if its released in tears. it makes folk aware of where problems lie whereas they were blind to it before and its a spiritual advisor in itself.

OrbWeaver

30-11-2007, 12:47

Tarot is magic because...

...of each individual who uses it in their own, unique way.

inuzrule

30-11-2007, 17:19

Tarot is magic because...

~It opens an entirely different world that only seems like our own
~It brings new possibilities and decisions to the light
~It stretches the human psyche over time
~It brings weird dreams
~It affirms the impossible
~It grabs a-hold of you (even if you have a five minute attention span, like myself)
~It inspires
~It invokes
~It never bores or tires
~It brings about change

(And, as to the magic thing, I think you SHOULD change it to magical. Makes it sound less dark arts and more like the inspiring thing it is. :thumbsup:)