View Full Version : Would you buy a 'Gay Tarot' book?
Tarotbear 2
21-04-2002, 13:47
My future collaborator and I have bantered this around this weekend. It started with an innocent suggestion of his that maybe I need a different focus for my book...need a sexy title...that kind of thing. I asked him if maybe then I should pose nude for the cover and retitle my book ' The Gay Bears ' Guide to Tarot' - especially if 'sex sells'.
8)
We both laughed about this.
He once said that he had considered writing something along the lines of 'Tarot 4 Guys' ( gay or Str8 ) but that most guys would no sooner buy a book on tarot than put their socks in a hamper... however 'Tarot for Gay Guys' could be a possibility since gay men can be more open about these things in general...and may put their socks in the hamper if their partner doesn't stuff them down their throat first.......
Most all tarot books deal with male/female relationships and don't resaerch the possiblities for same sex couples. There are Gay astrology books out there (yes, there really are), so maybe a tarot book slanted towards gay relationships...men in particular?
Would you buy this book? Do you think it would sell?
8)
(P.S.-- the hets and srt8s out there can answer this question, too!)
Definately!
Which deck would you use to help illustrate your book - The Cosmic Tribe? Because... you know... if you need an illustrator to do specific stuff relating to your book I happen to know one... ;)
Tarotbear 2
21-04-2002, 14:52
Really, Kayne? LOL!!!
There is a 'gay tarot' deck of sorts on Aeclectic; the artist lives in NYC and I've been in contact with him off and on. Not sure if his desgins are exactly what I want to write the book for, although I could write his book. A book and deck set sells better according to Llewellyn and US Games...but I'm not sure the imagery of his deck would appeal to a mainstream publisher.
Major Tom once asked me to write a book for his deck (or use his deck to illustrate my book, one of the two..), so we'll see who gets their personal project completed first.
Talisman
21-04-2002, 16:16
Tarotbear,
Is a "gay definition" different than any other definition.
If a gay guy is standing on a chair hammering a nail in the wall to hang a picture, and he drops the hammer on his toe, does it hurt less or more than it would a straight guy?
I think this idea is plumb goofy.
Probably sell like hotcakes at IHOP.
Lot'sa luck, but why slice your potential audience into sexual preference?
Maybe bunches of people are like me. I'd buy it -- just 'cause it's by Tarotbear. Been waitin' a long time for a Tarotbear book.
Talisman
hey Bear, it's not the title that makes me buy a book.
it's what's on the pages that does......
so, i don't think, speaking for me here, i would be put of or attracted either way.
dunno about the majority of people though.....
kaz
Originally posted by Talisman
I think this idea is plumb goofy.
Probably sell like hotcakes at IHOP.
*cricket nearly falls off her chair laughing*
Agreed... and agreed! I know I'd probably buy a copy, just to have and for the different point of view. Not because of sexual preference or sex (cause, well, I'm het and female) but because it would be different.
Rhiannon
21-04-2002, 23:03
IMHO: I would probably buy it (or at least LOOK at it ;) ) if it had a pretty cover and a sexy title. I've looked at plenty of books I didn't actually buy. While I agree with Kaz that it's "what's inside that counts" (is that a song cue?) attractive packaging is important.
As for the content: I'm not sure if you're talking about just a book or a deck/book set type deal. I think you could do very well calling it "Tarot Sexuality" or "Sex and the Tarot" and talk about Hetero and Gay interpretations. I would buy a book that I thought would give me more insight, and if you can compare and contrast the 2 it could definitely change the way we view some of the cards. I'm excited by this concept! :D
Rhiannon :)
Well, I'm still waiting for a Tarot book to come out about a het. sex life! To be completely honest with you, I haven't really thought of the Tarot books I see as being geared towards either hets or gays.... The Tarot for me only contains a couple of cards which could be affected by this really. (The Cosmic Tribe deck dealt with this well!) I'm wondering what you would put in your Tarot Book For Gay People...?
Kiama
Well, I would buy it in the first place because it were a book written by a certain Tarotbear who's postings and knwoledge I enjoy very much.
Strange, until now I never made a difference between gay or het. I am wondering if male gay would have a different approach to Tarot than hets.
Id buy it because it was by Tarotbear too, especially if he was naked on the cover ;) Im not gay, but some of my bestfriends are (they know who theyare ;) ) and if I ever read for others who knows I may read for a gay person, so such a book may be a great help :) It may even unwittingly have some stuff that would be useful for us heteros too, or even bis! hehe
:THP
Tarotbear 2
22-04-2002, 14:43
I love input!
Truthfully, I said this all to my collaborator as a joke, but there are definate possibilites (other than selling it at IHOP) that some of you are missing...and it's called 'validation'. This is a big issue in gay communities.
By now most of your realize ( or are about to learn) that the 'bear' in tarotbear is a definition of my sexuality. Most any gay guy out there picks up on it immediately. 'Bears' are a sub-group (HATE that term!) of gay male sexuality. It was a term created about 15 years ago in retaliation for many things that are still being explored in gay life, and has spawned books such as "The Bear Book, One & Two". Bears , some feel, are a post-AIDS creation - a backlash as it were to the stereotype that all gay men are buff,suntanned, gymbunnies on acid with proxide-blonde out-of-the-bottle-hair dico queens. We are large, hairy, usually bearded gay men. We do not fit the stereotype. There are not (not until recently) images that support us. When you look at gay movies and picture books, all you see are sculpted, beautiful men that we cannot be- nor should we. The outpouring of 'Bearaphenalia' ( I can send links to 'Bear' stores) is a result of men wanting to see themselves in a positive way, working against stereotype.
so...why do we 'need' at gay tarot book?...see part 2 so I don't write too large a post.
Tarotbear 2
22-04-2002, 15:00
Why a 'gay tarot' book? What is the need?
In truth, there are only a handful of sections that would need the 'gay perspective' -- the cards that deal with relationships, and (trying NOT to giggle) the QUEENS!
It is said that the great passion that Tennessee Williams created in Streetcar (STELLA!) and other works was really about two men (Tennessee was clearly homosexual) and he changed the plots to be male/female so that the plot would be 'acceptable' to a straight audience. In Menagerie it is felt that the character Tom is really Tennessee, and his trips to 'the movies' were really Tennessee going out cruising for gay sex.
So, what does Tennessee Williams have to do with this?
The Lovers card. Two non-aroused naked men kissing each other passionately. That image bothers str8 people. Two women doesn't seem to have the same inmpact. Believe it or not, that outdated 1950s masters & johnson crap about one man being 'active- the man role' and the other being 'passive-the woman role' is a load of shit. Gay men (and gay women, for that matter) do not relate to each other in these terms. The sexual energy of the Lovers card does not translate into gay terms by the mere adding of a letter - 's/he'. It's like saying if a woman put on a false mustache that I could have sex with her---WRONG!!
All description of relationships are defined from the male/female concept. That is were a 'gay tarot' definition comes in.
Validating the 'gay experience'. Validation of gay life and gay relationships.
The Queens...well....can't you see Christopher Lowell (TV Home decorator--making a fortune telling str8 people how to design their home spaces) as the Queen of Pentacles? We all say that we all have male and female qualities -- shouldn't someone finally say something about the 'maleness' of the Queen cards?
(PS - am not posing naked on the cover of anything other than [i]American Bear Magazine, and they're not exactly breaking down my door for the opportunity!)
Tarotbear 2
22-04-2002, 15:27
Originally posted by Rhiannon
As for the content: I'm not sure ... I think you could do very well calling it "Tarot Sexuality" or "Sex and the Tarot" and talk about Hetero and Gay interpretations. I would buy a book that I thought would give me more insight, and if you can compare and contrast the 2 it could definitely change the way we view some of the cards. I'm excited by this concept! :D
Rhiannon :)
But Rhianon (and talisman) - there are books about tarot and sexuality out there,(Sexual Key to the Tarot comes to mind) but they are male/female. Male/male and female/female couples/relationships don't fall into those patterns just because the same sexual organs are involved.
The gay audience out there is bigger than you think. It's called 'finding your niche', better known as 'You gotta have a Gimmick if ya want to have a chance!' (words by Stephen Sondhiem).
{besides, what do you people think I'll be working on after I leave the forum?}
Tarotbear2: Both as a gimmick & as a Tarot book, your idea would work!! Simply because there *is*a gay audience interested in Tarot, just as they are interested in Astrology for the same reason straight people are!
More to the point: regardless of sexual orientation, the idea of gaining insight into relationships & the self (let alone others & life in general) will *always* appeal to an audience, whether it is geared for a mass audience or targetted towards a specific group.
People tend to be attracted to a user-friendly book as opposed to studying a subject in depth (present company excepted, perhaps). The success of publications & videos of the "self-help" varieties on a myriad of subjects are a testament to the market opportunities.
Personally, I find it no different to read for a gay person than for a straight person. The pursuits of love, fulfillment & understanding are universal & cross all boundaries.
As you indicated, the available Tarot material dealing with relationships is from a hetero viewpoint. Therefore, a Tarot book geared for the gay market sounds like a golden opportunity long over-due, & a potential whose response would be well worth the effort!
& yes, I would purchase a copy for me; additional for friends.
Tarotbear 2
22-04-2002, 17:05
Can we tell whom my biggest supporter on this forum is?
8) 8)
Tarotbear2: You are welcome & thank you!
You have many friends here; also potential friends, too!
I have faith in you & in your talents, so I fully expect to see you published!!
Yeah, your biggest supporter is Pollux ;) But we all luv ya, or at least all of us that matter ;)
:THP
Originally posted by Tarotbear 2
The Queens...well....can't you see Christopher Lloyd (TV Home decorator--making a fortune telling str8 people how to design their home spaces) as the Queen of Pentacles? We all say that we all have male and female qualities -- shouldn't someone finally say something about the 'maleness' of the Queen cards?
Yes! I can definitely see C.L. as the Queen of Pentacles! LOL!
Well, TB, at first, I was in agreement with the others in regards to "why a specific book?" But having several gay (male & female) friends, I also *so* understand your point about "validation". Really, when you think about it, almost any group that has felt misunderstood and maligned in society has had need for validation. The whole Women's Movement thang in the '70's comes to mind, as does "Roots" & what it did for Afro-Americans. On & on....as a hetro female, whom am *I* to talk to *you* about the need for validation. Quite simply, although I have gay friends, I cannot know the struggles gays face. I can see it. I can be angered by it. But I don't live it, and so I don't think I can truly understand.
I *would* buy a book geared towards gays, though - if it was good book, the lifestyle angle would not bother me.
P.S. Why are you leaving the forum? I've read this in other posts you made....
Tarotbear 2
22-04-2002, 23:33
8)
I am leaving the forum to let the healing begin.
8) 8)
Besides, people like Kayne are going to get lots of emails from me while I work on the gay tarot book, seeking viewpoint! And those working towards a SACT deck are going to have to listen to me comment on what I see as strengths and pitfalls in their thinking!
8) 8) 8)
...if they ask me, of course!
TB, You couldn't have explained the reason a book directed at a gay audience would be benificial in a better way! Absolutely! And I look forward to your queries TB, I think we look at these issues from very different perspectives (afterall... I am young, blonde, slim, not hairy... :P) and these should also be reflected in your book.
Amyel: I had not thought of the women's lib struggle in the 70's like that but you are right. Imagine if their were as many tarot decks available from a gay perspective as there are decks available from a feminest perspective... what a choice!
fairyhedgehog
23-04-2002, 03:21
I would be interested in a gay tarot book, although I would be even more interested if it included stuff about sexual stereotyping generally.
I've never been happy with the idea that male should be one way and female another to 'complete' each other. When I see things like 'men are from mars ....' I wonder what universe the writer comes from, as I don't feel I fit the stereotype for women at all. That is nothing to do with sexual orientation either, my friend who is lesbian is more 'feminine' than I am and I identify as straight.
I think such a book could be very enlightening and as those of us who use Tarot are perhaps more open-minded and interested in learning new things than the general population (perhaps) I think it might sell.
All the best,
FH
PS Sorry to hear that you are leaving :(
Tarotbear 2
24-04-2002, 11:22
8)
You all must realize I have posted this question of several tarot sites, and also on Yahoo!'s 'Pagan Bears (yes, there is such a place). I did get this interesting response for a bear identified as 'Mo':
On the subject of explicitly gay friendly tarot packs there isn't much that I can relate to. The Cosmic Tribe tarot is very beautiful, but it's attempts at gay-friendliness fall flat for me.
It's very well done, it has three versions of the lovers cards for different combinations of Lovers, but looking at the figures on the cards, there is not one mature male figure, nor a female crone anywhere for that matter. Just about all the characters look ultra-trendy, styled, shaved, buff, hair dyed , young, all men are slim and pretty much boyish to youthful, and almost all are very smooth.....the drift seems to be "Here's a gay friendly pack and here's the trendy, hip types you identify with"....Looking at the two lovers on the gay mens lovers card, I'd never see myself or my partner in them."
All you people out there are wondering why the gay community seeks 'validation'.
Another interesting letter took the argument into a delightful direction; the bear wanted to see an all-bear deck and came up with an entire Major Arcana of large hairy men! Interesting, but really just a parody of the Rider; it does not address the reading for a gay clientelle; it merely substitues Bears in the Rider imagery - for example:
MOON: instead of a howling dog and a wolf on both sides of the Moon, you could put a (real) grizzly bear on one side and a naked bear man on the other, both staring into the Moon.
If I could get all these concepts working at one time....boy! What busy year I'll have!
I don't know if I am the biggest supporter...
But I'd be interested... :P
GO FOR IT!
Tarotbear 2
24-04-2002, 13:31
Originally posted by fairyhedgehog
I would be interested in a gay tarot book, although I would be even more interested if it included stuff about sexual stereotyping generally.
O.K.-- what does that mean? In a positive way, or defusing negative stereotypes?
Incorrectly handled, there is not much difference between an archetype and a stereotype in most people's minds.
Although the Hitchiker in Kayne's 21st Century tarot 'works' in the concept of the youthful Fool, it is still a stereotype of the young, slim, gymbunny that most other gays call 'twinks'. (Sorry kayne, not trying to put you down here)... What differenciates it as archetype, stereotype, or charactature? And to whom?
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
fairyhedgehog
24-04-2002, 15:41
Hi tarotbear2,
I'm not sure exactly what I /do/ mean. My post was more of a though-in-progress than I realised at the time, so it isn't very coherent.
I was thinking about how I don't know what it's like to be a gay man, or a lesbian. I think I kind of have some idea of what it is like to not be validated by the culture you are part of. Then that led me to thinking about men and women generally and the roles we can be expected to play. My mind wandered from there onto sexual stereotyping - and I never quite got to the point of asking myself the question where does stereotyping end and archetypes begin.
I really don't know the answer to that. I wonder if there is a place for a new kind of Tarot, with different symbols? Can you just cut and paste two gay men (or two lesbian women) onto the Lovers and that is enough? But how much can you change the Tarot and it is still Tarot?
Sorry this is still very tentative,
Regards,
FH
Tarotbear 2
25-04-2002, 01:47
The problem is not so much the physical image of having two naked men as the lovers or two naked women. It's more of the dynamic that makes two men or two women a couple. I would not want to create yet another Rider Waite Clone deck, with images merely a parody of the same old stuff with picture pasted over the images. That is the wrong way to go entirely. I would want the book to be about what goes on in gay people's heads, why a description that only refers to the male/female dynamic falls short. I am not expecting to write this book overnight, nor rewrite my own book. This will be an entirely new manuscript.
I now also have 3 different designer/artists with three different visions of what a 'gay' deck should be vieing for my attention. Could be busy writing gay books for the next 2 years! All of them are different; all of them fill the artist's concept of what they would like to see -- Ah- Diversity!
fairyhedgehog
25-04-2002, 04:28
Originally posted by Tarotbear 2
I would want the book to be about what goes on in gay people's heads, why a description that only refers to the male/female dynamic falls short.
That is a book I would like to read :)
FH
Hello,
surely it will sell.
Not just for gays; as I have feminist tarot books, too, to learn about another point of view on tarot.
Besides, I have a proposal for you in respect to this topic; could you write me at kimon@tarotline.com?
Greetings,
Kimon