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Kit
24-08-2004, 13:46
On the thrones of the King and Queen of Wands, lizards and lions are prominent. Wands are associated with fire, so I could understand the connection with lions but didn't understand the lizards.
The other day it occured to me that they *might* be salamanders (lizards of the fire) but I can't find much info about this or find anything to back this theory up. Any help/other ideas?
Raeven

Rusty Neon
24-08-2004, 13:58
Yes, they'd be salamanders. The Golden Dawn, of which Waite was once a member, associated the element Fire with the suit of Wands and the salamander (traditional elemental creature of fire) with that suit.

Kit
24-08-2004, 15:48
Yay! Thankyou.

Fulgour
28-08-2004, 22:02
Secret Teachings of All Ages: The Elements and Their Inhabitants

1928 by Manly P. Hall

The third group of elementals is the salamanders, or spirits of fire, who live in that attenuated, spiritual ether which is the invisible fire element of Nature. Without them material fire cannot exist; a match cannot be struck nor will flint and steel give off their spark without the assistance of a salamander, who immediately appears (so the mediŠval mystics believed), evoked by friction. Man is unable to communicate successfully with the salamanders, owing to the fiery element in which they dwell, for everything is resolved to ashes that comes into their presence. By specially prepared compounds of herbs and perfumes the philosophers of the ancient world manufactured many kinds of incense. When incense was burned, the vapors which arose were especially suitable as a medium for the expression of these elementals, who, by borrowing the ethereal effluvium from the incense smoke, were able to make their presence felt.


http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta25.htm

Rusty Neon
28-08-2004, 23:31
Raeven's initial question raised the issue of the association of salamanders with the tarot suit Wands. In my first post, that's what I addressed.

However, being aware of the traditional association of salamanders with the element Fire, I was careful (while writing my first post) to describe the salamander as "... (traditional elemental creature of fire) ...".

In my first post, because of the parallelism of construction, a second placement of the word 'associated' -- as if placed immediately before the words 'the salamander' - is implied.

The RWS deck is Golden Dawn inspired, as Waite was a former GD member. The Golden Dawn associated the element Fire with the tarot suit of Wands. Therefore, because of the ancient association of Fire and salamanders, the Golden Dawn's association of the suit Wands to salamanders follows. The Golden Dawn literature is full of references of salamanders to Wands.

Fulgour
29-08-2004, 00:18
Originally posted by Rusty Neon
Yes, they'd be salamanders. The Golden Dawn, of which Waite was once a member, associated the element Fire with the suit of Wands and the salamander (traditional elemental creature of fire) with that suit. Well said! An excellent point, and a very helpful observation.
Have you noticed The Page's tunic, how they swim around?
She is the only one whose tunic features this design element.

Kit
30-08-2004, 13:53
They are featured on the knight's tunic also. I guess you'd say they are more circling than swimming.

Fulgour
02-09-2004, 08:44
Originally posted by Raeven
They are featured on the knight's tunic also. I guess you'd say they are more circling than swimming. Ah, you will have to look closely ~ and pay attention...
The Page's go clockwise and counter-clockwise!
(not so on the Knight)

Kit
03-09-2004, 12:31
Originally posted by Fulgour
Ah, you will have to look closely ~ and pay attention...
The Page's go clockwise and counter-clockwise!
(not so on the Knight)

Now I look at it closely...I begin to grow dizzy! Interesting! But what do the swimming salamanders mean? Swimming would imply water, the opposite of fire.

Fulgour
03-09-2004, 12:46
"Swimming" was a poor choice of words by me.
Swirling is better ~ going in every which way!

Here's another clue:
only The Page of Wands and King of Pentacles show any armour...
(her helmet and his boot) ~ plus, Pages were non-family members.

Fulgour
03-09-2004, 13:02
Much has been made of the armoured boot of
The KING of PENTACLES
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/img/peki.jpg

But few have noted the metal helmet of
The PAGE of WANDS
http://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/pkt/img/wapa.jpg

Could her 'difficulty' with matching her tunic to the strange
House of Fire reflect her Earthy origins? After all, she's holding
that Wand like a tree, as if she's thinking of planting it!


:)

Kit
03-09-2004, 13:35
I initially thought the page of wands was leaning on the staff but closer inspection has shown she is lifting it as if to plant it. A strange place to plant a tree~ in the middle of a desert. I doubt her "earthy" tree will take root in this firey land. A page of wands is still a wand, whether of the family or not.

Fulgour
03-09-2004, 13:57
:)

True. Still though, look at The Page of Pentacles and
see if she isn't the very picture of a Sun Worshiper...

SeraphSarah
30-10-2004, 07:12
For me, the lizards / salamanders (from a totems perspective) signifies Dream world. So I see them as a person who has a goal or dream that they need to start on, lista of creativity.