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isthmus nekoi
01-10-2004, 02:17
w/societies looking quite different than the ones astrology originated in, I've often read articles arguing for changes in houses and their meanings. For example, sex is a very hotly contested one, being shunted from 5th to 8th to 11th (b/c women lovers are friends and equals now instead of being chattel?).

There are also new social elements which have no traditional equivalent. The internet, for example. What house/sign/planet gets to rule the internet?

So how does everyone feel about this?

Is it OK to just switch things up b/c you think society has changed sufficiently enough to merit such a switch?

And how do you yourself go about understanding novel social elements such as biotechnology, e-mail, atomic warfare etc?

dadsnook2000
01-10-2004, 04:18
The astrological model -- the progressive 12 zodiac signs, the personal and social hemispheres of the 12 house system and their interrelated meanings, the planet's attributes and expressions, and the aspect's dynamics -- all form an integrated system.

Change, IMHO, should first be looked at in terms of "added layers of meaning" and not in the disruption of the proven model. Only after we have shown that the basic model dosen't reflect our present cultures, behaviors and archetypes should we change the model.

Let's look at the points you have questioned as a means of generating discussion:

SEX: Sex can be measured several ways within the basic astrological model. The 5th house seems to be our personal form of expression and enjoyment. The 7th house seems to be our view of relationships and how to bargain or interact within them. The 8th house is "a house of unequal sharing" and what one gives and takes from the other to experience a "love value", perhaps. The 11th might be what we perceive our friends or lover's experiences and an outward social expression of personal relationships.

Then we have to overlay the planet's dynamics, singely (did I spell that right?) and in various combinations to see how we try to inwardly and outwardly express and experience those "house" inclinations.

INTENET: This is a tool of communication and relationship building. As such, it might be the TRINE from the 3rd (talking out), the 7th (building a bridge to another) and 11th (sharing in an outward social demonstration of shared or cared-about values). The planets, to the degree they populate or rule or aspectually condition Mercury, Venus and Jupiter/Moon combinations (as an example) would show how we use and view the Internet.

So, this is a complex question and a valued question. It is only through posing questions that push us to review and evaluate what we know and what we experience that we can grow within astrology. My views may not be an answer for everyone. Please accept them merely as my thoughts.

I look forward to hearing what other think or how others take issue with what I think. Hope we have a great discussion. Dave.

isthmus nekoi
01-10-2004, 12:56
Thanks for your reply, Dave :)

My own approach is a little uncommitted as I'd prefer to read more charts before deciding on any conclusion.

To address my own points directly, either 5th or 8th sits well w/me as I would rather err on the side of tradition. Personally, 11th as a social attitude towards sex rather than sex itself makes much sense. More sense than having it represent the act itself. At least, this is how it has played out in the chart.

As for novel elements - yes, I try to look for symbolic correlations. Perhaps looking at elements would be helpful here. The houses suggested for internet have all been air and I would wholeheartedly agree - the internet is primarily about the exchange of information and communication. However, when I try to narrow it down from there, it becomes much more difficult. Is it common for more than one house to rule over one thing?....

I wonder how the ancients decided to decide which planets would rule over what....

dadsnook2000
01-10-2004, 13:50
I've always limited my dependance upon elemental qualities for most applications. Even looking at the 3rd, 7th & 11th houses as "air" houses strikes me as a stretch. Afterall, "air" is the element of Gemini, Libra, Aquarius -- but houses have only a difused relationship to signs. In fact, there is only an infrequent match up of signs to houses in that sense -- this being due to the fact that Aries is only on the first house cusp about 1/12th of the time and house distortions often break the subsequent ordering and match up of house cusps and signs.

I personally use, and do not expect others to agree with me, planets first, planets in aspect second, planets in houses thirdly. I use signs as hosts to planets only to a faint degree -- actually I think that rulership relations might work more effectively than direct planets-in-signs meanings. I know this last statement is a little obscure but I am just going on some 30+ years of my own experience.

Again, I have found that planets in aspect and in other types of relationship are by far the most energetic and important considerations in charts. I would, as a general statement, say that the planets and their relationships to each other are so important and effective that most other chart considerations (such as signs, rulerships, elements) are at best remote secondary factors. Or on a scale of 1 to 10 with planets/aspects being high 10's, signs are 2's, rulerships 3's (?), elements 1.

A comment on the Internet example: I'd look at ones use or high dependance on the Internet as a social tool and means of gaining relevance among others as being shown by the planets in the 3rd, 7th and 11th houses. PERHAPS THOSE FOLLOWING THIS LIST MIGHT NOTE AND COMMENT ON THEIR CHARTS FOR WHICH PLANETS ARE IN THOSE HOUSES. We might then be able to assess how they use the Internet on that singular view. Dave.

isthmus nekoi
02-10-2004, 01:35
I don't have nearly as much experience but I've found signs to be particularly helpful - esp if a particular element/modality is emphasized/absent.

I actually have two planets in 11th, Sag cusping: Venus conjunct Neptune. Venus and Jupiter are in mutual reception. I primarily saw the internet as a learning place when I was younger. I remember when it came out. It was high school, and I was one of the few who was e-mailing (primitiiiiive!) and downloading/ftping right away!

I have never really enjoyed chat and didn't become extensively involved in any online community until AT. I now contribute news items to a design portal (like k10k) and have published articles online. I also have my own website now. Oh, and I have volunteered for a Flash user group - met some nice geeks that way. So art/design community play a large part of my use of the internet.

Strangely, it's not really about being close to others for me. Rare is the day I bother to use my MSN and tell all RL people that I don't have it. I think Friendster and suchlike are a waste of time. Sorry. I also don't think e-mail friendships/romances are anything close to real life ones and generally value real life social interaction far above internet interaction. Sorry about that too, I know it's harsh, but I'd like to be honest in my attitude and I think Venus-Neptune would suggest a merging w/people online... Actually, I like to keep my real life and online life more or less separate. I know I am not really "isthmus nekoi". She's just a persona.

Conclusion: Venus-Neptune describes best the content of the internet I use (art, design, music) while Sag describes my attitude - optimistic and eager. As for the ruler 7th, I don't think that really fits, but ruler of 3rd is sextile Uranus which may indicate why I had a feel for the internet. It was so familiar to me, almost like I'd done it as a child except of course, I couldn't have.

dadsnook2000
02-10-2004, 03:36
I have Mars/Leo/3rd, nothing in the 7th (although Saturn "rules" the 7th from its Pisces/10th house), and Uranus/Taurus/11th (although Aries is on the cusp of the 11th).

So, Internet-wise, that could be seen as an active, outspoken person (Mars/Leo/3rd) who utilizes the Internet for balancing or discussing with others issues of where reality and imagination meet (Saturn/Pisces/10th ruled by Neptune) and offers unique views and the value of his experiences (Uranus/Taurus/11) to others. We could contort this a lot of ways. Mars/Leo/3 rules Aries/11th with an indirect dispositing of Uranus -- but that might take us down any path.

So, this is an interesting exercise. Like you, I engage in artwork, marketing, graphics, computers, etc. and am now preparing my website which will be highly graphical. I'll be introducing a line of tarot accessories that I've designed and am producing and which are somewhat unique in the market. I appreciated your feedback. Perhaps we'll get some more Internet usage of charts shared by others. Thanks. Dave.

Minderwiz
02-10-2004, 06:22
A great discussion Isthmus and Dave.

I tend to see the houses as the 'face of the dial' against which the planets are read and the signs as modifiers of the planetary energy.

Like Dave, I'm rather suspicious of wholesale house reassignments and I agree with him that we are looking at added nuances or logical extensions of original meanings when we overlay the modern world onto the Astrological model.

I think I've commented before that the use of the eighth house for Sex is a creation of those highly psychological oriented Astrologers who like psychologists generally are rather obsessed about sex and the (supposed) link between sex and death and sex and 'abnormal' behaviour . I take the fifth as the house of romance and casual sex and the seventh as the house of marriage and long term sex (and of course other forms of partnerships).

It's clear that classical Astrologers used planets as rulers of things as well as giving house associations. I would put the Internet down as being ruled by Mercury and in a horary would tend to use Mercury and it's placement to symbolise the Internet. If you press me for a house, I'd probably go for the ninth, though I can see the obvious societal links and thus the possible use of the eleventh, in certain circumstances. Indeed the circumstances in which the internet is relevant to a question, or is the focus of a question would influence which house we may choose - for example is the issue mainly related to long distance communication or wide scale communiation, when probably the ninth would be the relevant house, or are we talking of an 'internet community', in which case the elventh may be more apporpriate. If the question is about using the internet as a leisure pursuit, then the fifth might be the appropriate house - as often is the case in Astrology, the circumstances need to be carefully thought through before a reading is done.

If you are considering the content of what you are looking at or participating in, on the internet then that might be the fundamental factor to consider in terms of rulership. The internet in that case is simply a medium of 'viewing' and is no more relevant to the question than your eyes are relevant to a question about a painting, or car, or game, or other object that you see.

dadsnook2000
03-10-2004, 08:42
You are quite right to consider the houses as having specific connotations that have to be modified by how the querent or astrologer is approaching the chart. In this sense, Houses in astrology are like Questions in tarot -- you have to fully understand the context of how you are approaching the reading or the issue.

In another sense, an astrologer can adapt every house to his question about a topic, such as the Internet. Let's say that we use the Derivitive House System and peg the 3rd House as being the Internet -- the astrologer seeing the Internet as merely being a tool for him to talk to others.

The third house would be the derived first house; his/her own experience and the voice used to communicate with.
The fourth house would be the derived second house; his/her own values and life style as a support for what is expoused.
The seventh house would be the derived fifth house; the care and creative experiences of shared ideas and "group" activity on the Internet.

This approach can be explored if anyone cares to. Dave.

dadsnook2000
03-10-2004, 09:14
I had to interupt the previous post to meet a time limit.

I wanted to say that the derived 9th house of the 3rd house is the 11th house. This shouldn't sound confusing if we followed the prior posting. This is interesting because Minderwiz noted that the 9th house might be best for the "Internet" and that he didn't see much connection to the 11th house. So, now in light of this topic, we can see that the 9th is the 11th. Ha. If you'r still with me than you can laugh too.

Dave.

M-Press
09-10-2004, 08:58
Hello!
Very interesting discussion indeed.
I'm of course a bit confused, maybe due to my jet-lag, and maybe due to the complexity of the issue.

I will try to contribute as I can at the moment:

Internet: I always saw the internet as an Aquarius thing, mainly due to watching how at ease aquarians are with it, how free, comfortable and capable. But maybe that is true regarding computers in general, and maybe this is where it's coming from?
then Uranus would play his part, as the revolutioner, unpredictable, and inspiring. And let's not forget Change.

I also tend to agree with Minderwitz though about Mercury as well, and maybe this is how I can built the following. Can we say that the internet is ruled by Mercury and Uranus?

Regarding my personal 3rd, 7th and 11th: (if we decide to fit them there):
Nothing for me in the 3rd or 11th,
but I have Sun, Jupiter, Neptune AND Mercury in the 7th.
I'm not as good in making up the combined conclusions, so for a second I can hardly tell what that says. But all in all:

The first "search" I ever did on the net (in the college computer) was to find out stuff about Keanu Reeves, the actor. College crash i would call that. then, the reason that I bought a modem and connected to the internet from home, was due to a love affair that moved away. No politics, academic research, music or whatever else!!!
Online i'm not a chatter, and i try to have a life out of the screen. I don't come here to socialize, but unexpectedly find it an incredible platform of learning, AND bonding with people. I never was as involved till last year when i joined AT. I have a live journal but I hardly ever write in it. I know i could use the internet to promote my business more, but I refuse to do more typing than I already to. I feel it's not my "thing" although I use it constantly and benefit from it incredibly. I never just surf, and find posting, FTPing and downloading incredibly difficult and energy taking. maybe my headacke , maybe not, I'm not sure how to describe that astrologically.
(the only thing I can think of is the ruler of my moon in Virgo, Mercury , is in the 4th house, so it fits as some intellectualising I do from home).

Now, I also agree regarding the 'slices of life" WITHIN the internet. Yes, we have learning here, we have trade and business, social issues, services and endless sex sites too. So, it does seem to be dividable as well. But the more I think of it, i see Uranus as a ruler here. bringing new stuff, and change that is unpredictable: from the things that evolve to the unexpected viruses.

Now the Derivitive House System, is something that I didn't get to yet, and yes, i'm confused here (and maybe should go to sleep...). ;)

dadsnook2000
09-10-2004, 10:40
To quote a comment by Michael Munkasey relative to a book Planets in Houses written by an old friend and mentor Rober Pelletier ". . . houses are designed to give us a proportional representation of the space surrounding a birth or other event . . .". And, "The Derivitive House System shows how each house in turn is related to each of the other houses in the chart."

So, what we have is a simple idea which can be conveyed to others -- except that it requires a comfort level and intuitive grasp of astrological relationships to actually state an example in some detail. I would reccommend finding the above mentioned book in a book store or library -- then use it to study your own chart for added insights.

I think of derivitive houses as being somewhat like rulerships for planets in signs. It is a way of adding layers of understanding to a chart and the relationships between its components. Not all charts and inquiries require this level of detail. If you understand it you should use it. If its confusing just wait awhile and come back to it next year. Dave.