View Full Version : Bâtons in English?
What's the best English translation for Bâtons?
I just get tired of typing â (that makes â) all the time.
"Wands," I know, is right out, though it's familiar enough to me that I find it slipping in by mistake.
"Sticks", "Poles", "Staffs", "Quarterstaffs", "Clubs", and "Bludgeons" all seem to come close, but none of them are exactly right.
The English word baton refers either to a metal stick with rubber ends that drum majors wave about and toss in connection with marching bands; or to an orchestral conductor's stick, neither of which is spot on either.
I have wondered this too ihcoyc.
In my Grimaud LWB (it has both French and English) the Batons are refered to as clubs.
However, my French-English dictionary says that baton translates as stick.
Neither of these feel quite right.
Rusty Neon
24-10-2004, 02:39
Personally, I use Batons (without the circumflex over the â) as the English rendition for the Marseilles Bâtons. (In English, my personal preference is to call the Marseilles suits Batons, Swords, Coins, and Cups in English.)
I personally don't like calling the suit 'Wands' as it puts a magical twist on the Batons suit. 'Rods' or 'Staves' or ''Clubs' could work for me. Rods, Staves or Clubs seem to me to be more neutral English words than Wands -- and they sound more elegant than 'Sticks'. By the way, in some of the Golden Dawn's materials, I've actually seen Sticks used as an alternate name for the suit.
If I were to use a traditional English suit name rather than Batons, I'd personally opt for Rods.
I have to admit that Batons in English makes sense only to someone who understands that it's a borrowing from the French word Bâtons. On the other hand, someone unfamiliar with the Marseilles might find that the Batons appellation in English reminds him of the batons that cheerleaders carry. :)
fyreflye
24-10-2004, 06:22
-delete-
One of the defining qualities when considering what to call
a suit might be along comparative lines in terms of limits:
Cups as vessels or symbols
Coins if given or received
Swords in unity or opposition
Batons as intentions or abilities
How their active nature, by name, is embodied and applied?
DollieAnna
24-10-2004, 08:48
How 'bout a Poll (for the poles...LOL)
Wow, apparently, I missed something in translation! If a Bâton isn't a baton, what indeed is it? I mean, I get that it's not a cheerleader thing...
(Another example of why I need a Marseille for Morons guide...)
(PS: Personally, I have a higher tolerance for "Wands" for Bastons than "Pentacles" for Deniers...although I see yer point, Rusty...)
B & a c i r c ; a t o n s
without any spaces, reads...
Bâtons
HA! I guess I left out the semi colon. I'd never even tried to put that little accent mark in before....
Oo oo oo, I went in and fixed it and it worked...
fyreflye
24-10-2004, 11:29
-delete-
Rusty Neon
24-10-2004, 11:45
Originally posted by ihcoyc
I just get tired of typing â (that makes â) all the time.
I guess I've been lucky to have a bilingual English-French keyboard all this time. In fact, I've never heard about HTML codes for international accent marks until today.
http://www.starr.net/is/type/htmlcodes.html
By the way, I've previously been puzzled by the code   that comes up on other people's posts on yahoo groups and didn't know, until today, that that was HTML code for "no break space".
ë ü ß Æ
Rock on!
Rusty Neon
24-10-2004, 11:56
[delete]
I'd vote for Rods. I always liked the Aquarian and Morgan-Greer decks for that very reason, 'cause they use Rods.
-- Lee
Perhaps they should not be translated....
I mean, Deniers aren't Coins either.
There are a lot of French words used in the English language and vice-versa. Why not Tarot words as well?
Major Tom
24-10-2004, 18:35
Originally posted by Diana
Perhaps they should not be translated....
I mean, Deniers aren't Coins either.
There are a lot of French words used in the English language and vice-versa. Why not Tarot words as well?
Perhaps they shouldn't be translated but to reach the single language native English speaker all around the planet, then they will need to be anglicised.
I call this suite batons. Think also of the conductor's baton. Don't forget the policeman's baton. The cheerleader's baton is quite fetching. ;) The Drum Major also carries a baton. Remember General Patton's baton? In school, we might have called it the teacher's pointer, but it was a baton. Batons are in use throughout the world.
Indeed, I agree with RustyNeon.
Originally posted by RustyNeon(In English, my personal preference is to call the Marseilles suits Batons, Swords, Coins, and Cups in English.)
Unless someone can suggest something better. ;)
I suppose we could try Deniers as Dollars or Pounds or Euros? :joke: Most won't make the connection to a recognised currency. :laugh: Coins is close enough. :) Though, in some places, I have heard deniers used as the word for money...
Coinage? :laugh: :laugh:
Originally posted by Diana
Perhaps they should not be translated....
I mean, Deniers aren't Coins either.
There are a lot of French words used in the English language and vice-versa. Why not Tarot words as well?
Well Wands are a type of Baton, but I agree with the previous poster about Denier being called Pentacles. Don't see why though you say above that Deniers aren't coins.
Denier:
NOUN: A small coin of varying composition and value current in western Europe from the eighth century until the French Revolution. b. Archaic A small, trifling sum.
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English denere, a coin, from Old French dener, from Latin dnrius. See denarius.
Denier is a perfectly good, albeit archaic, [anglo-french] English word, meaning coin; and can be found in dictionaries of Middle English from the 13th century on.
Kwaw
Originally posted by Major Tom
Perhaps they shouldn't be translated but to reach the single language native English speaker all around the planet, then they will need to be anglicised.
All cooks all over the world refer to the little snack before the meal as an "hors d'oeuvre". No-one translated it as an "outside-of-the-work." And the head cooks even call themselves "chefs". They don't call themselves "chiefs".
Diplomats call their replacement a "chargé d'affaires". They never refer to him/her as Charged Business.
Road officials have never translated "cul de sac" as "ass bag".
I don't agree that these four very specific words from the Tarot of Marseilles need to be anglisised. Why? Why can't they just keep their original names? They are charged with meaning which loses their sense in English.
It's like translating "Le Mat" into "The Fool". EEEEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even translating "Le Pendu", by the "Hanged Man"..... is wrong. There is no mention of any man in the French version.
Let's just use the words that were given to us. They are our inheritance.
10 de Batons. No need to bother about the circonflexe.
10 de Coupes
10 de Deniers
10 d'Epees. No need to bother about the accent either.
Four little words. Easy to remember, easy to spell. Surely it's not too hard, even for someone who is NOT a linguist?
Are the English speakers incapable of learning a few foreign words? Or are they just flexing their linguistic imperialistic muscles ????? (Methinks it is the latter.)
Originally posted by kwaw
Well Wands are a type of Baton, but I agree with the previous poster about Denier being called Pentacles. Don't see why though you say above that Deniers aren't coins.
Denier:
NOUN: A small coin of varying composition and value current in western Europe from the eighth century until the French Revolution. b. Archaic A small, trifling sum.
ETYMOLOGY: Middle English denere, a coin, from Old French dener, from Latin dnrius. See denarius.
Denier is a perfectly good, albeit archaic, [anglo-french] English word, meaning coin; and can be found in dictionaries of Middle English from the 13th century on.
Kwaw
Yes, I agree that Coin is not a bad translation.
But as, in the Middle Ages, even in English they used Deniers.... let's just use Denier and not bother with the translating.
I see what you mean Diana.
It would be like caling a pianoforte a "soft-loud" which would just be silly, even though it is an accurate translation (I think).
I personally find it heartening to see that there seems to be an increased desire to stick to those words that appear to cross over towards the latinate root of common European appelations...
Though I have for a long time also used 'Coins' for 'Deniers', I do not see that this is ongoingly necessary - what is of course also lost in the modernisation is the alphabetic suit order (B - C - D - E) easily otherwise retained.
As to a pole, though it too is a long Baton, I don't think it quite captures the meaning ;)
Major Tom
25-10-2004, 00:38
Originally posted by jmd
Though I have for a long time also used 'Coins' for 'Deniers', I do not see that this is ongoingly necessary - what is of course also lost in the modernisation is the alphabetic suit order (B - C - D - E) easily otherwise retained.
Ahhh - I begin to see. :eek:
So - nonetheless anglicised:
Batons
Cups
Deniers
Epees
An Epee is a type of sword...
Rusty Neon
25-10-2004, 00:47
Originally posted by Major Tom
Batons
Cups
Deniers
Epees
To complete the A to F sequence:
A = Atouts (Trumps)
F = Le Fou
** Edited to mention: Le Fou is a major arcanum but not a trump.
Originally posted by Rusty Neon
I guess I've been lucky to have a bilingual English-French keyboard all this time. In fact, I've never heard about HTML codes for international accent marks until today.
I've often þought þæt English needed a few more letters ---- we ought to use Þ instead of 'th', and we need Æ to represent þe sound of 'a' as in cæt and bæþ. When I'm writing a note to myself, I often use þe þorn character. Still, hæving an internætional keyboard would make it a lot easier. English hæs twenty-six consonants ænd anywhere from twelve to twenty separate vowels and diphþongs, depending on dialect. Þe twenty-six letters of þe Lætin ælphabet do not cover all þe bases here.
I had never noticed that the sequence of initial letters in French for þe trumps and suits made A, B, C, D, E. That is interesting, although in Italian it would be A, B, C, D, S, which breaks the sequence.
Originally posted by ihcoyc
I had never noticed that the sequence of initial letters in French for þe trumps and suits made A, B, C, D, E. That is interesting, although in Italian it would be A, B, C, D, S, which breaks the sequence.
.... which is one more sign that the Tarot is of French origin and not of Italian origin, whatever the Historians would like to make us think.
Originally posted by Major Tom
Ahhh - I begin to see. :eek:
So - nonetheless anglicised:
Batons
Cups
Deniers
Epees
An Epee is a type of sword...
Fencers in English use épées as well; an epee is between the foil and the sabre in weight, although it usually resembles the foil more than the sabre. Epees are also used in musketeer and pirate movies when a rapier or cutlass would be more appropriate.
FWIW, denier comes from Latin denarius; in English the word has been most directly domesticated as "dinar."
Originally posted by Diana
.... which is one more sign that the Tarot is of French origin and not of Italian origin, whatever the Historians would like to make us think.
Though I agree that a French origin remains possible, the alphabetic sequence is interesting but I fail to see how it is evidence of a french origin.
When did the name fou, folle, fous first appear, is it older than Mat or Matto? . It is called fou or fous in some 17th and 18th century French decks, a bit late to claim 'origins'. Also in the Paris the card is numbered XXII, thus clearly marking it as part of the XXII emblematic figures and not viewed as seperate from them [therefore coming under 'A' [if they were called Atout at the time] and not 'f', also the sword deck is called sabres [s], not epees [e].
Also at a similar period of time [early 1700's] but in totally different geographic region, in the Piedmontesse it is numbered 0 and so is numbered among the 22 figures and so is not seperate from them. So the statement that the fool/madman is not to be considered as part of the 22 Atu needs to be qualified as to which decks and when/why it is not to be considered among the 22 atu. Though re-reading your post I see you say it is part of the 22 arcana but is not a 'trump', so the distinction is one of game play, in which case the 21 cards would be call 'trumps' [T] and not Atu[A]? Or does the name 'atout' only refer to 'trumps'?
When was the name of Atu [atout] used to distinguish the 22 [or 21] first used?
As I say the alphabetic sequence is interesting, and may be evidence of the structure being [i]adapted at some point to reflect an alphabetic sequence, but I am not aware of any evidence to suggest that it originated with such. Perhaps it may be considered as evidence of the Tarot structure being connected by some French cardmakers with the alphabetic sequence [and possibly symbolism]? In which decks does this appear to be the case, when and where did they originate? Were the major arcana called 'Atu' [or one of its variants] at the time?
Kwaw
Originally posted by kwaw
Were the major arcana called 'Atu' [or one of its variants] at the time?
My understanding is that a trump card was called atout because it could be played on any card (à tout) in the game of tarot.
Mkay...I do definitely see the lack of teaching foreign languages properly as a flaw in the American (as I don't know if or how it's done in England or Canada or Australia) edu-ma-cation system, which means that ppl like me are at a disadvantage. I applaud those who have learned a foreign language fluently, especially considering that they probably would have had to pursue it on their own at some point. BUT I have a few immediate issues:
1) If a Bâton isn't a baton, what is it? If a Denier isn't money in some form, what is it? Is a Epee a sword and a Coupe a cup?
2)If we all agree to type the French, this is fine to an extent, but if I ever meet any of you in person, I don't want to be laughed at for butchering the pronunciations! (I try and have a rough idea but I'm sure it's not perfect!)
3) We have a lot of ppl here who have chosen to stick with English language decks, and maybe part of the reason is the language, so when we're participating in the Reading Exchange, and somebody doesn't know what the flamin' hootie hoo a D'Espees or a Deniers is, shouldn't we translate? So, if what has been transmogrified to English isn't correct, should we figure out what it is? I mean, I think we risk making the Marseille ppl a little bit cliquey, at the very least keep the decks seeming intimidating. Not only the reading exchange board, where ppl are always free to ask or hang out in Marseille and learn, but in my case the idea of going pro seems closer all the time, being in America I would probably have to translate for clients.
Basically, for Americans at least, there will always be instances where some translation will be needed. (Until the education system gets restructured.) Personally, I'd rather get to the bottom of what indeed is the best possible translation.
Rusty Neon
25-10-2004, 15:35
Shalott ... In English-language texts relating to tarot, the French-language Tarot de Marseille suit name Bâton has been rendered into English in various ways: Batons, Wands, Clubs, Staves. Other possibilities are Rods [my preference after Batons] and Sticks. In the end, what term to use in English is up to the individual ATF'er.
Out of curiousity, I looked up the English term 'baton' in The Canadian Oxford Dictionary to find out its etymology:
[French bâton, baston, ultimately from the Late Latin bastum stick]
Hmm, but the Petit Robert French/French dictionary indicates that 'bâton' comes from Low Latin 'bastum', from 'bastere' "to carry".
Before the specific definitions for 'bâton', the Petit Robert gives the basic meaning of 'bâton' as: "a long piece of round wood that one can hold in one's hand and that can be put to different uses".
I would translate Deniers as Coins. However, that said, Deniers has also been rendered into English as Deniers or Money (e.g., Queen of Deniers, or Queen of Money). Personally, I find Money a very unelegant rendition into English.
As for Coupes and Épées, I would translate them as Cups and Swords which is what those French words unambiguously signify in English, without loss of nuance. Those are perfectly good traditional tarot equivalents in English.
A question for those who are using 10 de Baton(s) as the English rendition. Are you pronouncing the 10 as Dix [phonetic 'Dees'] or as Ten?
Rusty Neon
25-10-2004, 16:33
By the way, there's an earlier thread "Marseilles decks: Translating French card titles?".
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25301
Originally posted by Rusty Neon
[B
I would translate Deniers as Coins. However, that said, Deniers has also been rendered into English as Deniers or Money (e.g., Queen of Deniers, or Queen of Money). Personally, I find Money a very unelegant rendition into English.
The word Denier exists as an archaic english word meaning 'coin', and I think 'coin' is the most accurate translation of the French 'Denier'. The etymological connected Italian word 'denaro' however would probably be better translated as money or cash?
Kwaw
Major Tom
25-10-2004, 18:22
Another word, beginning with the letter 'd' that I've heard used in the UK and in North America is ducat.
"Sorry mate, I haven't got the ducats". :laugh:
Originally posted by ihcoyc
My understanding is that a trump card was called atout because it could be played on any card (à tout) in the game of tarot.
Thanks ihcoyc
And could the fool be à tout as well, or not? So in our letter sequence it should be counted as seperate and last in sequence? [The Etteilla deck does this, but his ordering is 21 [Atout], Rods [Batons], Cups [Coupes], Swords [Epees], Coins [Denier] and Madman or Folly [F], so the alphabetic sequence falls down with the transposition of E and D].
Kwaw
Ross G Caldwell
25-10-2004, 19:13
I think "baton" (without the circonflex, and pronounced as an English word) is a good English word for this suit.
"Baton" is used in relay races and (I assume) is the root of "bat" (as in baseball and cricket), so it recalls the Mamluk suit of "polo sticks", as sporting implements;
it is also used in parades, which recalls the ceremonial use of batons. So I think the term "baton" as an English word covers a lot of symbolic ground quite appropriate to the suit.
Cups and Swords pose no problem, and I use "Coins" myself for the Deniers. But what do people think of "Dollars" (from Dutch "Taler")? It may seem very coarse and too blunt even, but this coarseness may reflect rather well how people regarded the "coins" suit in the beginning. Plus we get to keep the "D", without having to use an archaic or borrowed word.
For the "atouts", since there is no tradition of playing tarot in English speaking countries, none of the game words became Anglicized. "Arcanes" (or the bastardized "arcanas") reflects well their position in the English tarot tradition, which is entirely divinatory and esoteric, and it allows us to keep the "A." But
Crowley played on the sound of the French "atout" in using the Egyptian "atu" (means "house" or "abode" IIRC), and to the extent that Crowley has influenced the English tarot world, you will find the word "atu" used frequently - also has the "A" advantage.
Originally posted by Rusty Neon
A question for those who are using 10 de Baton(s) as the English rendition. Are you pronouncing the 10 as Dix [phonetic 'Dees'] or as Ten? [/B]
Personally, I have no prob with the French for the Majors, my first deck was majors-only that I drew myself based on Marseille or cousin, so that is firmly ingrained in my head, even when I only used English language decks. The minors I learned in English so I have to make a conscious effort to type them in French. The suits I'm becoming more consistent with. The numbers - English for me. But I'll pretty much always type "10" and not "dix" or "ten." I can't say that I struggle with the suit names, but I keep hearing from various ppl here that such-and-such (usually the most common) isn't a good translation, which has only left me wondering..."What is?" Coins and Batons are what I've been using, so thus I'll continue. :)