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HOLMES
11-11-2004, 00:28
hi guys

i am asking a question here about qabbalah astrology as you can tell by my title LOL.

the questions is ,, before they started to assocate tarot with the qabbalah,,
what were the astrology assoctions with the paths ? and the sephiroths ?

i am of a mind that the astrology associated ( if it was before they associated the tarot but i think it was ) with the qabbalah was at least differnt if not radically differnt then the astrology associated now with the paths.
which would of came from trying to make everything fit in .

is you know the answer can you tell me in the form of
first sepherioth 1 to 10
then paths from 11 to 32
(which i think golden dawn at least to my knowledge tried to make the tarot fit by order of the tarot,, then the astrolgy to the tarot then to the qabbalah as a second thought yes ?)

Fulgour
11-11-2004, 01:20
This is a trick question, right? ;) The Golden Dawn's version
of almost anything requires at least knowing the basics of:
1. Tarot
2. Astrology
3. Numerology
4. Kabbalah
Then you can see how they never bothered to themselves,
since they couldn't tell a King from a Knight and thought
that the number Zero was equal to the number One... :laugh:

isthmus nekoi
11-11-2004, 01:26
lol, Fulgour... :D

HOLMES, check out this site: http://www.byzant.com/kabbalah/paths.asp.

It'll give you the planets associated w/the kaballistic paths from the GD, I believe. Let me dig up the Book of Thoth later, I believe Crowley did things a little differently, as usual.

kwaw
11-11-2004, 04:15
hi guys

the questions is ,, before they started to assocate tarot with the qabbalah,,
what were the astrology assoctions with the paths ? and the sephiroths ?



In the SY each letter is described as being ‘King Over…..’. What does it mean to be 'king over'? First or Head of like the Capital letter at the head of a sentence. As for example:
Aleph King over air is the first letter of the [male and female]
permutations of 'air'. Mem King over water is the first letter of the
[male and female] permutations of water.

Each letter is also ‘bound to a crown’, what does that mean? Keter is THE crown, but all the sephirot were known as 'crowns'; so we may read ‘bound to one of the sephiroth’.

In most kabbalistic schools of the Judaic tradition it is accepted that the three Mother letters AMSh are bound to the supernal sephiroth and the three horizontal paths. The seven Beged Kararta are bound to the lower seven sephiroth and the seven vertical paths. The 12 remaining ‘single’ letters are bound to Tiphareth and the 12 diagonal paths. However there are many schools within the Judaic tradition and beyond the common elements between them as above there are otherwise as many variations as there are schools.

However for example, the three mothers are 'crowned' by the three supernals, Aleph is connected to Keter; there is a variation in Mem/Shin to Chokmah/Binah between and within Judaic/Christian/Hermetic systems.

Then there is the Beged Kafarta; Sun/tiphareth; Mars/gevurah;
Venus/Netzach; Mercury/hod is almost universal. Chesed according to
alternate systems is either Moon or Jupiter, as is Yesod [also called
Tzadiq, which is also a name for Jupiter}. Malkuth can be Saturn,
Earth or Moon. Saturn is also attributed to Binah.

Moon chesed belongs to the Gra, 18th century, trying to make the SY
comply with the Zohar and is colour based [kindness, mercy, chesed is
colour white according to the Zohar and one of the Hebrew words for the Moon - Levanah - comes from a hebrew root meaning white]. For some reason the 18th century Gra version is called the Ari/Gra, though the only existing comment on the SY from the Ari is to say that the Raivad is the only accurate commentary on the SY, and the attributions of Raivad are totally
differerent to those of the Gra so it doesn't make sense to me to call the Gra version the Ari/Gra,when the Gra is totally different from the only version the Ari said was accurate.

In the oldest schools, before the post zoharic redactions of Luria and the Gra, Saturn is attributed to the letter Beit, and is bound to both Malkuth and Binah. Why the first of the Beged Kafarta to the last Sephiroth? Because according to the SY Malkuth is the first of the lower Sephiroth. Why? Because it is the center, without which the 6 relative extremes [front, back,
right, left, up and down] are impossible. Saturn is attributed to both Binah/Malkuth, the two 'H' of the name JHVH, the six other planets and sephiroth to the V of YHVH [V=6 and is attributed to the six directions and the six days of creation]. The six other planets 'hang from Saturn' according to Jewish tradition, as V hangs between the two H of HVH.

As the six [V] are attributed to the six days of creation, Saturn is attributed to the Sabbath, which existed before the days of creation and at the end all will be a Sabbath day [so that 'time' is placed within timeless 'eternity']. Jupiter is then Chesed and the rest follow according to the Chaldean order and tradition.

Then according to the Ari there is the partzufim
of the Son and bridegroom [chesed to yesod] symbolised by the Sun,
and the parzufim of the daughter and bride [malkuth] symolised by the
Moon. At Sabbath the bride [the place of conjugation, Yesod] is
invited. Saturn and Moon share the same place [malkuth] the first and
last [Saturn and Moon are the first and last planet in the Chaldean order] are united, the end is embedded in the beginning, symbol of
conjugation, the sacred marriage of Zair Anpin and the Bride. Saturn
symbol of the three supernals [and in terms of the partzufim the
never separated Mother and Father, Chokmah and Binah in the thus
concealed Daath] is reflected below in the union of the bride and
bridegroom, Saturn symbolising the union below as it is represented
in the never ending union [daath] of above, Saturn and Moon united,
the end embedded in the beginning.

Of the physical attribute there are again variations I use Malkuth as mouth [because it is first
of those below, and God's first action was to speak, God said 'let
there be light', and in the beginning was the word], then Chesed and
Gevurah [right and left] eyes, because God saw that it was good, then
nostrils [because god breathed life] tipharet and yesod , right and
left [because top is attributed to right, bottom to left, and the
middle column is attributed to air, wind, spirit, thus life, thus
tiphareth = right nostril, yesod = left nostril and malkuth = mouth,
vehicles of breath]. Netzach and Hod ears, they complete the 10, the
unity, and are connected with prayer and hearing [hear, o israel].

So if 'king over' means first in the letter permutations, what does
this mean in terms of the Beged Kafarta? Vilna Gaon [the Gra] says:

"Six letters, 720 permutations. 360 forward, 360 backward. In time
each star permutes 360 [in a] circle. Heaven six depths, six
permutations, 360 and 360. Earth the Holy Palace[Malkuth], number 7."

Each of the Beged kafarta is initial [king] to 720 combinations of
the following six letters. Each initial refers to a planet. That is
for example Gimel 'king over Jupiter', Gimel remains the 'first'
or 'king' letter and the six letters that follow can be permutated
720 times.

So each planet travels in two circles forward and
backward [360 and 360], in other words each has a diurnal motion and a yearly motion. Over the course of a day a planet rises,
reaches its zenith, descends and in a course of day comes full circle
[360]. But at the same time it is moving in the opposite direction
through the signs [aries-pisces, 360].

Thus an initial letter [Beged kafarta] and its following six
permutations refers to both a planet and its [diurnal/yearly] motion.
[By year I mean the planets year, the length each particular planet
takes to circle the sun and complete the circle of 360 zodiacal
degrees]. The total number of permutations for 7 letters, as it says in the SY, is 5040, which is 14x360 or 14 circles, the diurnal and annual cycles of each of the seven planets.

Kwaw

HOLMES
11-11-2004, 12:24
hail fulgor, and isthmus ,
I was looking for the astrology associated standard wise with the qabbalah before the golden dawn came into the picture.
sometimes i ramble as i try to get my thoughts down on post.

kwaw hial,
can you give me the most standard system of astrology associated with the qabbalah before the golden dawn influence came into the picture or know of a good book that teaches that ?
as i read your post, there was much i didn't understand,, can you give me the list .
1. first sephiroth was this,
then after done that
2. 11 path was this ? and all the way down..
it would help me to understand so much better.

Fulgour
11-11-2004, 14:30
hail fulgor, and isthmus ,
I was looking for the astrology associated standard wise with the qabbalah before the golden dawn came into the picture.
sometimes i ramble as i try to get my thoughts down on post.Aw gee ;) HOLMES ~ I kind of knew what you were getting at,
but if you really do want to discover more about the Kabbalah
it's a long journey, and once begun, it continues for all eternity.

kwaw
11-11-2004, 18:46
kwaw hial,
can you give me the most standard system of astrology associated with the qabbalah before the golden dawn influence came into the picture or know of a good book that teaches that ?
as i read your post, there was much i didn't understand,, can you give me the list .
1. first sephiroth was this,


There is no 'standard' list as even before the GD there were many variations between different schools. The oldest [pre-zoharic] is:

Saturn - Binah and Malkuth
Jupiter - Chesed
Mars - Gevurah
Sun - Tipharet
Venus - Netzach
Mercury - Hod
Moon - Yesod
Earth - Malkuth

As you can see, these pre-zoharic sephitotic/planetary attributions are very much as the GD. Where the GD differs significantly is in the attribution of the planets to the hebrew letters and the paths of the tree.

For a table/list and discussion of some of the variations [though not exhaustive] see 'The Sefer Yetzira' by Aryeh Kaplan. Be aware though that the body of Kaplan's interpretation is based upon the redaction of the Gra [18th century], which forms the basis of the most common schools of [i]modern Judaic Kabbalah.

Kwaw