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Diana
10-03-2005, 19:55
I finally decided to disable my PM option, because I just cannot get used to the idea that people are tracking my messages (in other words when I have read them). I understand completely that for some people it's no big deal, and in fact it is not a BIG deal, but due to visceral and probably inborn instincts that inhabit me, I just can't come to terms with this. It's part of my make-up and however hard I try to jump over my shadow, I just get tired because it's physically and mentally impossible to jump over one's shadow.

(It's not only the Big Deals that count in life, the Little Deals are important too.)

But I must say, I do enjoy the PM system. It is great to receive and send PMs. It's fun and friendly.

So I am wondering if it would be possible to give the option to some people to turn off this tracking system so that the PMs they receive cannot be tracked by the sender? But I suspect that this would be not allowed by the software.

ncefafn
11-03-2005, 00:37
The only time I care about tracking PMs is when I'm in the middle of a trade. I want to be able to confirm that the person I'm trading with got my message about terms, about when a package was sent, about when a package was delivered. So, I guess I'm kind of opposed to being able to turn off the PM receipt confirmation. If it is made an option, though, I think that there should be a notice to people before sending that "X has opted not to allow receipt confirmation." That would at least give people fair warning.

Kim

contradiction
11-03-2005, 21:26
I don't mind people tracking me, but I do wish there was a way to chose if you want to automatically track messages, and keep a copy in the sent file. I wasen't go to complain, It is no big deal to me either way, I will be happy doing it however the majority want it done. I would just prefer not to have to clean up the sent msg folder, and the conformination folder. And when I try to send a msg without saving or requesting read conformition, it will not send. But since the subject was brought up, I decided to put my two cents in.

Moongold
11-03-2005, 21:58
I can't see why it should be a problem worth disabling the PM system over - but I have no difficulty, either, if a choice is made possible. Couldn't we do this under the old system as well ?

Diana
11-03-2005, 23:00
Moongold: Am not sure I am understanding you correctly.

To sum up: 1) one is able to choose whether to track messages one EXPEDITES, but 2) we cannot choose whether the messages we RECEIVE are being tracked by the people who EXPEDITE them. You know, that message you get when you track messages: "Your message was read by so-and-so three minutes ago."

It reminds me a bit of that discussion we had when the forum was upgraded last time - a number of us felt uncomfortable about the "so-and-so posted 1 minute ago, or 5 minutes ago". It's sort of spooky for people who are worried about the times we live in, because it reminds us of them.(less freedom and what-not - cameras in big cities, our credit card movements tracked, our computers being hacked, etc. etc. etc.). (I am not talking politics here - I'm talking Real Life - before anyone decides to report my post or something. :( ).

The less of this tracking and monitoring I can have in my life, the better. Tiny little drops end up by filling a bath-tub.

That's why I have disabled my PM option for the moment. Only the CIA and computer hackers can track my e-mails.

(I edited this post and I see that I posted this "One minute ago." Yikes!!!)

Moongold
12-03-2005, 00:24
Hi Diana ~

I see. I rarely check. I guess you would need to weigh what mattered most on this little forum. Is it important that some people would know that you posted one minute ago or that the person sending a PM would know that you had read it or not? Or is it important that people are able to communicate with you and you with them via the PM system? Clearly for the moment you are saying that you sense of privacy is more significant to you. That is understandable.

I am sure such a sophisticated piece of software as this would be able to offer a choice about PM tracking. I don't mind one way or the other. It is handy sometimes (I remember now) to know that someone has read your PM.

There are many worse kinds of tracking. Do you know that the clothing manufactures, Beneton, invented a tracking tag for their clothing? It is indiscernible but everytime the wearer of the clothing entered certain locations, his/her presence would be registered. Now that is scary indeed.

Little Baron
12-03-2005, 00:38
One thing I don't like about this tracking is -

Occasionally, I will get a pm. I read it. Until this post, I wasn't aware that they knew that I had just read it also.

Occasionally, I do not always feel like responding straight away. I may want to contemplate my answer, find out some information. I may just want to read the boards and not respond to that pm instantly - I might want to do it tomorrow.

However, it may seem rude to the sender if they are aware that I am responding to posts on the boards and not responding to the message they know I have read 'ten minutes' or whatever ago. I feel a pressure to respond sooner than I might like, so that I can continue with what I want to read and respond to in the threads. Do you understand?

For example, I am replying to this post. At the moment, I have a couple of pm's to respond to, but havn't yet. If they are from 'you', I will get round to it as soon as, I promise, lol.

LB

To add: I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with the original poster. I would like to be tracked and monitored as little as possible in life; not just on here. This is a great site with some great functions - some, maybe needed more than others, I would say. It is a bit eerie to know when people are posting; I am aware when people are online and what their last action was. It is not a big issue but the need doesn't seem justified to me. A date of the post would be enough. Just my thoughts; not a complaint. I very much appreciate the knowledge from this site and its users.

Moongold
12-03-2005, 00:47
I don't feel that pressure but understand it. I had to develop a hardnosed attitude to emails and mobile phones because one can let them simulate the same pressure. One has to surround oneself with some kind of protection against expectations of constant availability. In this world of emails SMS's mobile phones - you won't survive otherwise.

Little Baron
12-03-2005, 00:50
There are many worse kinds of tracking. Do you know that the clothing manufactures, Beneton, invented a tracking tag for their clothing? It is indiscernible but everytime the wearer of the clothing entered certain locations, his/her presence would be registered. Now that is scary indeed.

I never knew that; reminds me of those little tags and cameras they put on animals for documentaries; so you know what they are doing and where they are all the time. Yes, Moongold. I think it is scary.

LB

Moongold
12-03-2005, 00:57
One thing I don't like about this tracking is -

Occasionally, I will get a pm. I read it. Until this post, I wasn't aware that they knew that I had just read it also.

Occasionally, I do not always feel like responding straight away. I may want to contemplate my answer, find out some information. I may just want to read the boards and not respond to that pm instantly - I might want to do it tomorrow.

However, it may seem rude to the sender if they are aware that I am responding to posts on the boards and not responding to the message they know I have read 'ten minutes' or whatever ago. I feel a pressure to respond sooner than I might like, so that I can continue with what I want to read and respond to in the threads. Do you understand?

For example, I am replying to this post. At the moment, I have a couple of pm's to respond to, but havn't yet. If they are from 'you', I will get round to it as soon as, I promise, lol.

LB

To add: I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with the original poster. I would like to be tracked and monitored as little as possible in life; not just on here. This is a great site with some great functions - some, maybe needed more than others, I would say. It is a bit eerie to know when people are posting; I am aware when people are online and what their last action was. It is not a big issue but the need doesn't seem justified to me. A date of the post would be enough. Just my thoughts; not a complaint. I very much appreciate the knowledge from this site and its users.

Do you own a mobile phone? The new mobiles are being made with signals that can always be tracked, even when turned off.

Do you use a flybys card? Do you know that marketers thereby have a record of all your personal purchases. If you use one they know what deodorant you use and how much meat you, Little Buddha, eat. You may be a vegetarian but if you buy meat you'll be indentified as a meat eater. Do you know how often you are photographed in the streets - at the ATM, on the freeway, at the traffic lights?

In Victoria, Australia, every new born babe has a DNA sample taken at birth. This has happened since 1966. Veryfew people know. Does it happen in your country?

Little Baron
12-03-2005, 01:09
I do own a mobile phone. This morning, my landline went many times and I decided not to answer it. Then my mobile started going; then the answer machines and text messages came. It may seem a little extreme, but it can feel intrusive.

The only good reasons for the signals, I can imagine, is if someone is missing (not by their own choise), it is possible to find out where they have been, in the hope of helping them.

I don't buy meat so thats not a problem, hehe, but it does feel strange to be photographed so much. It is odd that if there was a need, someone could map out my whole day and journey by snippets of CCTV and stills cameras. I am not sure I like that so much. Then, when I am at home, they could continue the story by ways of monitored telephone conversations and places I have been on the internet. If you had the inclination, I am sure that reading through all the posts made by 'one user' on a board like this, that you could build up a pretty good idea of that persons lifestyle; where abouts they live, where they go and have been, what they do for a living etc etc. I keep personal details very brief but it is easy to let things slip every so often, I am sure.

A bit off topic (I am sorry, Diana) but an interesting debate.

Regards
LB

Diana
12-03-2005, 01:10
The Benetton affair can be read here:

http://www.rednova.com/news/display/?id=739

Caused quite a fuss at the time - but people get used to anything. Anyway, Benetton clothes are too expensive - who would want to spend that much money on a piece of material?

Moongold: 1984 is creeping up on us, indeed.

Little Baron
12-03-2005, 01:21
Thanks for that Diana - very interesting.

So if I walk past the sensors in Benneton everyday but still never buy anything, I can receive 'priority' to a customer that doesn't. I am not sure I would be very happy about someone reccommending what would look nice with my slacks, to be honest. I am quite sure I could make that decision for myself. Besides, I am not a Benneton fan, and agree Diana, that they are too expensive for what they are. I think I'll take the 'second hand' approach - I am sure that tagging will not exist in 'charity' shops and markets for many years to come, I hope.

So, in terms of tracking here, has anybody found a way to turn this option off?

LB

Moongold
12-03-2005, 01:31
Yes. It's somewhat ironic that we who read tarot are concerned about the ethics of our "seeing" others whilst at the same time we are being "watched" by so many others. :)

Phoenix Rising
12-03-2005, 06:19
For example, I am replying to this post. At the moment, I have a couple of pm's to respond to, but havn't yet. If they are from 'you', I will get round to it as soon as, I promise, lol.

Oh that's alright LB...no worries there buddy.;)
Oh I sent you a message to Moongold :laugh:

Hey Moongold those DNA tests, are they those foot prics they do when the babies are born, and they say it's to check for those very rare diseases? Because I did wonder about that. Now that really bugs me, because I didn't want that with my daughter!

but I agree with LB sometimes we don't always respond straight away, either in a rush or the reply requires a long thought out process!...but I do like to reply to all my pms.

But I'm not fussed on whether there's that option or not. I've given up on being paranoid about who knows what now, as I used to be, I've got nothing to hide.
But those buggers }) watching us...grrrr. But sometimes it's the best camouflage is to do it right under there noses, it's only when you look suspicious that they pay more attention to you!

Athara
14-03-2005, 04:50
It's just like with SMS's. People expect me to answer right when I get them. They sometimes act annoyed or disappointed when I don't.

When I'm somewhere and my cellphone indicates a new SMS-message, people I'm with hand my phone to me or look at me expecting I'll respond rightaway.

I like to finish my conversation, finish my meal or whatever I'm doing at the time and respond when, and if, I want to.

Diana
14-03-2005, 05:41
I would LOVE to turn off the SMS option on my mobile phone as well. You can't even turn off that dreadful BEEP BEEP ..... BEEP BEEP when you get a message. It's a plague.

Moongold
14-03-2005, 10:48
We CAN turn off our mobile phones. :)

We only really need to have them on constantly if there is an emergency or we are on call workers.

Diana
14-03-2005, 17:25
Even if you turn off your mobile phone, if someone sends you a darn SMS, as soon as you switch it on you get bombarded with "BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP". It's so sad that we don't have an option whether we want them or not.

Moongold: I use my mobile phone for professional reasons. If I switched it off all of the time, I would never have any clients because they couldn't reach me. I tried just using an answering machine for when I wasn't by the phone, but I noticed that new clients did not use the answering machine so I was losing out on a number of opportunities. My mobile phone therefore helps me to earn my daily bread. I can see who tried to phone me during my consultations as well when I put it on the "silent" option.

By the way: It is really cool to have the PM option turned off. I thought I would miss it, but it is much more enjoyable to receive e-mails. It's a lot less stressful, I find. I read them and answer them at my leisure. It's less telegraph-like. I strongly suggest trying it out for a few days just to see what it's like to live without PMs.

But I'm still waiting for Solandia to find out whether the technology allows us to choose whether we want our messages tracked or not. I suspect she's been too busy to answer up to now but will be along soon. :)

Anna
14-03-2005, 19:12
Even if you turn off your mobile phone, if someone sends you a darn SMS, as soon as you switch it on you get bombarded with "BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP". It's so sad that we don't have an option whether we want them or not.

Diana... you could set your message alert tone to silent. That way your phone would still ring when you get calls, but you won't hear messages arriving. (You would just have to remember to look at your phone from time to time to see if there had been any messages).

Diana
14-03-2005, 22:16
CharmingPixie: Am not sure that this can be done on my phone. It's a Nokia something-or-other. I will show it to you when I come and see you in a few days time. :) :) :)

Anna
15-03-2005, 02:00
I am sure that it can be done on your phone Diana. (we will probablly discover that your phone does all kinds of things you didn't know about!!)

But did you guys know that some moblie phones can track texts!!! My friend was showing me the other day - her phone tells her when her text messages have been recived. The world has become frighteningly Orwellian.

Moonbow
15-03-2005, 02:52
Oh yes!

I always have that option turned on, I know when my text messages have been received........ very useful when you have kids who swear blind that they didn't receive any message telling them to phone home!!!

In actual fact I rarely have my phone on 'sound' I have it on vibrate and silent, and I rarely use text messages......but that seems to be what my kids respond to, so I meet like with like.

As far as PM tracking though.... I cannot fathom why it bothers anyone that someone else is able to track whether a PM has been read or not. I sometimes send a message and then see that it hasn't been read. If it went on for weeks I may question myself as to whether I expressed myself the way I wanted, but I would leave it there. I also try to appreciate that some people either need time to repond or do not want to continue conversation. This doesn't make an enemy of them, it's a matter of respecting other people's privacy as well. Maybe it comes down to etiquette and how we expect others to treat us and how we treat them. (this is something I work at, it's in my upbringing).

Of course it would be a different matter if a person was causing unwanted hassle, but then we have the ignore feature. I feel as though we are well protected with what we have and if we express ourselves correctly we can divert (or ignore) unwanted attention.

Moongold
15-03-2005, 03:01
Diana ~

I think Solandia has responded to Umbrae who asked the same question as you.
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=38571. She says that she doesn't have the option to give people the options you want at present.

Moongold

ncefafn
15-03-2005, 03:01
And if you get a message from someone you don't like -- but don't have the ignore feature on -- just don't open it. As long as it stays unopened, it shows as being unread.

And finally, you can avoid PMs altogether by being hateful like me. :)

Kim

Moongold
15-03-2005, 03:24
You have raised some interesting questions, Kim, but you're not hateful :).

Forum rules suggest that one-to-one conversations should occur by PM, not in the threads.

Forum rules also suggest that if you have a disgreement with someone, sort it out by PM rather than have a "blue" in a public thread.

I guess there have been some right royal blues conducted by PM. However, it is possible, by putting someone on your ignore list, to prevent them from contacting you by PM. In the tracking system, any PM they might send you simply shows as having been unread. If your PM stays unread for some time it might be that you are on that person's ignore list. Or it might simply mean that they have not had time to read your message, which I would doubt.

I guess Pms are a good way for people to argue things out but goodwill would need to ultimately prevail. I have received and given some angry PMs in my time but like any communication you work with each issue as it comes, always with good will in the end. There is nothing wrong with a good argument, by the way. Disagreement is natural and healthy. There would be something very much the matter if people agreed all the time.

Like Moonbow* I can't see anything the matter with people knowing that a message has been read. It does not mean to say that a response is due right away. If you send a message you must know that it's usually received and read, so what is the big deal?

However, the choice between PM and email is a valid one. I get dozens of emails aday and would not want to add to that.

The instantaneous nature of communication now does place added psychological burdens on people. I am very careful with my mobile phone now. I don't have it on in meetings and sometimes I turn it off altogether. I screen phone calls at home too because you don't have to respond to everything right away. Emails worry me a great deal. I get dozens at home and scores at work. At least an hour a day is spent on just reading and sorting emails.

Majecot
15-03-2005, 03:24
And finally, you can avoid PMs altogether by being hateful like me. :)

Kim


Rolflmao!!! that was a good one Kim.

Pm tracking is no bother to me either. I care less about out if it is there or not. However, it can come in handy at times. Like when your waiting and waiting for response to something and nothing happens, then you see...oh, they haven't read it yet. I do not take offense to the feature or am I leary of it.
The feature that I do not get is invisibility... what exactly is point of that one?? It just seems sneaky to me.