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dadsnook2000
14-03-2005, 12:39
What happens when the Sun is conjunct by both standard degree position and declination an outer planets (Mars, Jupiter, etc., etc.)? When this occurs that planet is totally obscured by the Sun! Is its meaning lost?

Consider this example: During a lunar eclipse the Earth's shadow covers the Moon's diameter/face. There can never be, for instance, a Jupiter eclipse because the Earth's shadow essentially disappears in its smallness before it can reach Jupiter. The reverse is true when the Sun is directly between Earth and one of the outer planets -- the Sun totally obliterates the view and mass and apparent presence of the outer planet.

THE QUESTION IS -- what happens to that planet's meaning in your chart? Do you, for example, exhibit a "lack of Jupiter" or "no Saturn" or a complete "loss of Neptune's imagination or social consciousness"? Haven't you ever asked yourself this question? What might you learn in studying this type of situation? The absurd really isn't. Dave.

paradoxx
14-03-2005, 14:04
My initial reaction is that those planets have to 'work around the sun' through aspects to other planets, if there are no other aspects, other than asteroids, your interpretations just might be right on.

isthmus nekoi
15-03-2005, 00:54
Perhaps the "combust" interpretation could apply?

Minderwiz
15-03-2005, 00:56
It's a good question Dave, you're better at the spherical geometry stuff than me but I assume that the planet would have to be at or near one of its nodes - just as the Moon would have to be for an eclipse.

I think we would only treat this as something special if we took reflection of light as being important. That is Mars, Jupiter and Saturn would be debilitated to an extent when conjunct the Sun - mainly because they can't be seen - their 'light' doesn't get through and therefore their capacity is reduced. I think Paradoxx puts this well by saying that the have to work around the Sun. This debility would be a permanent feature of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto because they can't be seen at all.

Now traditional Astrology takes any planet that is obscured by the Sun as debilitated or weakened - this happens roughly 16 degrees either side of the Sun (referred to as 'under the beams'). However the traditional view is that the planet can still have dignity and still retains influence/ability to act unless their are other debilities. So we might tone down the meaning of Mars in Aries, if it happens to be under the beams or, even worse, combust (within 8 degrees of the Sun). Again Paradoxx's phrase fits this well. Mars in Libra in the Sixth might just as well pack it in and go on a recuperative holiday.

For this type of event, I don't think the parallel of declination matters - any planet that close to the Sun is obscured no matter what it's declination and this includes the Moon, which always goes 'missing' at the New Moon.

On the reverse situation, the Moon is only obscured by the Earth's shadow when it in on the eclipitc - at or near one of its nodes. So the parallel is important for the Moon. However the Earth's shadow doesn't obscure the outer planets, so on a 'reflection of light' argument there is nothing special here, the light still shines forth.

It's worth noting that the outer planets will be retrograde when they are in the situation of being in opposition to the Sun - so there is some debility or at least change in interpretation when the planets are so placed.

If you don't go with the reflection of light argument then I don't see any need to alter any of your interpretations

Minderwiz
15-03-2005, 00:59
Perhaps the "combust" interpretation could apply?

Good for you Isthmus - you beat me to it - I started on the reply before you posted but then got interrupted.

dadsnook2000
15-03-2005, 01:33
Is there anyone on this list that has any of the outer planets (Mars outward) closely conjunct the Sun such that the Sun seems to obliterate the planets in terms of its line of sight. It doesn't matter to me if the three outer planets can't be visually seen, I'm interested in any planet that is behind the Sun.

Yes, Minderwiz is correct in that the planet should technically be at/near its nodal axis. This greatly limits the number of people who would have the Sun in front of (sideways, up and down -- however you want to describe it) another planet. We would have to be aligned with the Sun and a particular planet's nodal axis AND the planet would have to be there and not somewhere else along its orbital path. So, we have a relatively rare situation. If we can find such a case or two, it might be very interesting to look at those charts and their owners in depth. Dave.

Minderwiz
15-03-2005, 02:20
I've had a look through my database and I can't find any example of Sun in opposition to an outer planet and also in parallel declination aspect. Strangely a fair number of charts have a contraparallel aspect together with the opposition.

Anyone wishing to pursue the symbolism of combust and under the beams might be interested in this article from Deb Houlding's site.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/heritage/egyptians.html

Kaylee Marie
15-03-2005, 02:24
My natal Jupiter is nine degrees from my natal Sun. Is this what you're looking for? I have no idea of Jupiter's nodal position, so I don't know whether the sun was actually blocking out Jupiter's light.

If you want to calculate my chart, here's the info:

June 28, 1978 4:56 am Wilmington, Delaware USA (daylight savings time)

I had always thought of a Sun conjunction as multiplying the effect of the two planets. That is, both planets are radiating their energy in one direction and the combination strengthens the energy.

But this interpretation of the Sun blocking the other is interesting. And it might fit my Jupiter quite well. I'm not particularly lucky or extroverted and have never strongly felt Jupiter in my personality (which is doubly odd, as it's in my 1st house). Definitely something to ponder...

dadsnook2000
15-03-2005, 02:49
No, I'd be looking for an alignment from the Earth to the Sun to the planet within a degree or so. The Sun has an apparent disk size (angle) along with its flaring of energy of about a half-degree-plus. So, I'd say a conjunction of the Sun and a outer planet within a degree or so would qualify.

My goal is not so much to cover a standard Sun-Planet conjunction or blending of energies -- but to determine if the Sun might possible totally override a Planet that it fully obscures. Thanks for replying. Dave.

Kaylee Marie
15-03-2005, 02:51
Oh, okay. Hope you find someone who fits the bill!

Kaylee

Minderwiz
15-03-2005, 03:59
On my previous search I only took oppositions to the Sun. A search involving conjuntions (to one degree orb) found a person with Mars conjunct Sun and also in parallel aspect.

This person is a forum member though they have not posted since last June and their last activity on the site was last December.

Now, my feeling is that their chart should only be used with their permission and given the period since their last post I'm not sure that this would be forthcoming. Even if I try and 'disguise' there screen name it's possible that someone might identify them from their natal details. Even worse, we have no way of testing any discussion we might have against observed behaviour.

BTW Dave, how can you have a line of sight to something that can't be seen even in perfect viewing conditions? })

dadsnook2000
15-03-2005, 04:38
"As if one had a line of sight." I take a lot of technical and conversational liberties at times. Dave.

Minderwiz
15-03-2005, 05:39
"As if one had a line of sight." I take a lot of technical and conversational liberties at times. Dave.

((((Dave))))

I'm not sure we would get much out of the chart anyway - there are five retrograde planets - Jupiter through to Pluto. Saturn and Pluto conjunc in twelfth in Libra. Jupiter and Uranus conjunct in Sagitarrius in the first (Scorpio Ascendant at 17 degrees). Neptune in second also in Sagittarius but widely separated from Jupiter/Uranus.

Mars is Conjunct Sun in the seventh in Gemini (Taurus on the Cusp).

Mercury is angular in seventh, Moon in Aries in fifth, Venus in Leo in ninth. Skewed element balance - only Water placement is the Ascendant, only Earth placement is Mercury all the rest are Fire and Air (including Leo MC)

An interesting chart as such but I'm not sure we would learn much about the contribution (or lack of it) from the Combust Mars

isthmus nekoi
16-03-2005, 04:39
Dave, I'd look at the charts I have on hand, but I'm using astro.com (yes, I admit I haven't bought software *blush*) and I don't believe they have any options that deal w/declination.

It would be interesting to see how that would play out... On that note, has anyone here found the "combust" interpretation to be a reliable factor in interpretations?