Did Waite supervise more than four cards? [previously discussed but some posts moved]

Did Waite supervise more the whole deck? [previously discussed but some posts moved]

An another thread, it was pointed out that we do not have direct evidence of Waite supervising more than a few cards.

I suppose must of us just assume that he supervised or dictated the entire deck, however, is there fact evidence of this in the written record?

After the Facts

Seventeen years after Pamela Colman Smith created her original Tarot,
A.E. Waite again attempted to usurp her recognized creative authority.
An 1926 essay The Great Symbols Of The Tarot is elsewise forgettable.

Again, in Shadows of Life and Thought (1938) he pathetically asserted
to have been involved in the creative process unable to properly recall
even the card's names that he desperately hoped to assume credit for.

After reading your short quote from Waite's autobiogaphy - I'm not sure he's praising Pamela Coleman Smith - He speaks of Smith as having drifted into the Golden Dawn but not understanding or pretending to understand what the Golden Dawn was about. And so describing her as a 'abnormally psychic' draughtswoman.

So are we to understand that Pamela Coleman Smith drew the cards of the RWS with full instructions from Waite, being as Waite puts it 'spoonfed' with no input from herself or others?

Edited to add - 21 March :- This was in response to a letter that was written by Waite concerning Pamela Coleman smith.

Did Waite supervise more than four cards?

The thread that used to be called this is gone.
I never had a chance to read it properly.
So, unless it gets put back...

I would like to know.

Did Waite supervise more than four cards?
Which did he?
Why did he (or not)?
Does it actually matter?
Does anyone really care, if so why?

And if there is another crucifixion can we have it live on web cam so I don't miss it.

Thank you.

hmm

Did Waite supervise more than four cards?
Which did he?
Why did he (or not)?
Does it actually matter?
Does anyone really care, if so why?

i can say truthfully i do not know,
i like to think that he was concerned mainly with the major arcana trusting pamela inuition to the minor arcana. and while he didnt' directly supervise the rest of the cards he did oversee them in the sense that he gave the ok to all the cards.
and the one pamala didn't agree with was the one she didnt' sign.
heck how do we know she did that card since she didnt' sign it?

does it matter?
in this day and age,, to me ?
no for the wiate-smith deck symbolism is now close to a centuary old and so is worth studying..

but then again yes it does..
for smith deserves for the cards she totally designed herself more acclaim, respect even though she is passed.

and also
without questioning everything,, that is how stuff becomes gospels upon which people determine their universe from.
which is why we should care for 2000 year from now smith might casted aside and wiate could become the tarot prophet

Hi HOLMES
Of your favourite decks (witches, buckland, morgon greer,
robinwood, hanson-roberts, templar) do you see influence
by Waite or Colman Smith, and is it on more than 4 cards?

My fav subject

I was directed to a link, to consider the Pages of Pamela's Deck. I investigated further and have to say that I think the Pages were definitely hers alone. I have personal theories regarding her Art, but am unable,due to my limited knowledge, back them up. I am trying to gain the knowledge. Why does it matter? I started with Tarot via her deck and most of my collection is Rider Waite Smith. I would like to be able to attribute the Art work that guides me to her. In this I agree with Holmes. Give credit where credit is due.
I read that Pamela had visions so I asked a friend who is qualified in Forensic work to look at the deck and tell me if he could see an artistic signature throughout the deck. He is very busy but has had a cursory look at the Majors.He feels that Death,The Magician,the Chariot,and Wheel of Fortune are diferent from the other cards. It will be interesting to talk with him further. I am fascinated by the subject.~Rosanne PS I think Waite was a misogynist and it would have irked him to attribute to a woman..but I also need to be more informed about him as well.

Personally I always assumad the art was all hers.

I mean, if someone says draw a man walking away from 8 cups, some are tipped over, you get as many pictures as there are artists.

The cards are obviously all drawn by one person and that is Patricia Colman Smith.

So, what is the question all about?

Wether she made up the content of the pictures, or was instructed as to what to put in them?

I don't know. I missed the first thread, I just wanted to know what the argument was about.

So far I have seen neither argument nor crucifixion. I'm dissapointed.

Where's Vincent?
He's always good for a discussion.

ah

Hi HOLMES
Of your favourite decks (witches, buckland, morgon greer,
robinwood, hanson-roberts, templar) do you see influence
by Waite or Colman Smith, and is it on more than 4 cards?

hail fulgor.

well i dont' know from looking at waite deck who did what. i dont' have the artist eye. all that is for certain is all that is on the cards was done by pamela, so eve in the one that waite designed/supervised more in depth, pamela style would of been all over it for you cant change the touch of an artist right ? it is uniquely hers.

i would based on the decks you mentioned,
1 hanson roberts,
2. morgon greer
3. robin wood,
4. buckland
5. witches tarot
6. templar
these are the order in which i would say falls closest to the waite clones, though i kept putting robinwood and morgon greer interchangable between 2 and three.

as i read i put everything in my mind to an image of the waite tarot and then apply the variation.

i just can't discern with my mind whose influence is on what cards. I would suggest that with more symbols are definatly supervised by waite for he would want them place there.
so the one with the differnt shoe was also designed by wiate.

however what does supervised mean?
in the witches tarot by reed, the differences between court cards are minimal but the background. all that mattered to her was the landscape in which they were painted. and the artist said he didnt' make them much difference due to the lack of time given to him to make the cards.
so the artist was supervised in the sense given direction. but the rest came from him to do.

i think the hints would be more in wiate own books. i noticed in reviews of the book it appears he was describing a differnt cards for some of the minors
those are the one that pamela had a differnt take on for sure.
i can see it now.
yes here is the despription of the card which i sent to the book publisher.
and GOD ALMIGHTY PAMELA WHAT DID YOU DO TO THE CARD.
hmm that looks good though, umm ,
well it can't be taken back now.

(i find waite book too wordy to read , and so is crowley eheh)

I will suggest an alternate thread that lists what is known

1. We might start from an essay of Stuart Kaplan's Encyclopedia of the Tarot which names some cards that have suggested connections to designs and previous works of Pamela Colman Smith.

2. If other people come across other sources of PCS designs and card art, then they can post what is known and documented to that thread.

3. I posted a link to the Cary Yale collection of Pamela Colman Smith's artwork in the "To All Believers" thread--hopefully the look at her art will help others determine their curiousity to the PCS designs.

That's my suggestion. I'm hoping to work on a general thread listing biographical info known on PCS with general art influences--hopefully these will be interesting and a general sharing--and so we can keep things straight, shall we try to cite our book, web or art references? My first source will be Melinda Boyd Parson's art catalogue "To All Believers" and I'll be checking Holly Voley's Pamela Colman Smith website and also Stuart Kaplan's biographical essay of P.C.S. in his Encyclopedia of the Tarot.

If we all can share our resources, I think we will enjoy the learning together...hope that the above suggestions help.

Regards,

Cerulean