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isthmus nekoi
31-03-2005, 08:42
I was reading excerpts from Lilly's Christian Astrology where he writes that Saturn "joys" in the 12th house. By this, does he consider 12th to be a good placement for Saturn, or that Saturn can be extra nasty in 12th?.... I ask b/c I have seen this placement play out in very difficult ways for people. I don't really go for the whole reincarnation bit, but these Saturn/12th people really seem to attract the bad karma.

Rusty Neon
31-03-2005, 12:15
Anthony Louis, p. 146, _Horary Astrology Plain & Simple_, on the 12th House:

Joy: Saturn (because Saturn delights in misery, obstruction, and undoing.)

...

Maternus connected the 12th to Saturn because Saturn is the greater malefic that naturally rules the misfortunes of the 12th where Saturn rejoices.

dadsnook2000
31-03-2005, 13:38
Saturn, by transit, sets up two or three complete cycles within our lifetime. We experience these transits through the "houses" of the chart -- houses are personal areas of experience unlike "signs" which are shared forms of expression.

Saturn in the 12th is preparing us for our next cycle of personal experience. This is a time to self-evaluate, consider your inner truth. consider the whole cycle or partial cycle prior to this point relative to what you have learned and how you have changed. What we have experienced in the outer world should have an effect on what we can become in the innter world. The 12th house represents this process when Saturn transits through it.

Typical feelings of those experiencing this transit include: A feeling that the weight of the world has fallen upon you, confinement without knowing "how or why" it is happening. Saturn does not bring misery or joy -- or anything inbetween. Saturn marks "time" for us, we respond differently to the march of the mortal timekeeper. Do we worry about the inevitability of something that is threatening us? Do we feel it is too late to make ammends? Or, too late for us to have a specific experience again? Saturn is time, and time seems to worry us.

Consider what we might expect when Saturn crosses the Ascendant and moves into the 1st house! What will we face at the Ascendant? Will we be plowed under, turned upside down, dominated, forced to learn through a tedious process -- what? How will Saturn transit and impact any first house planets? Will that change you? Do these questions bother you? Why? What should you be doing with Saturn in the 12th to make the later experience easier, better, helpful? Dave

Minderwiz
31-03-2005, 20:09
Lilly is rather brief in his statement - simply saying that 'Saturn doth joy in that house (twelfth), for natually Saturn is author of mischief'. Which seems to suggest that Saturn enjoys being in the twelfth because it is a house of misfortune and Saturn enjoys causing misfortune.

However, the system of joys is far more ancient than Lilly, who draws on Ptolemy's definitions. It is also clear that the system of joys also predates Ptolemy and that earlier authors had Saturn 'joying' in the fourth. A possible explanation as to why Ptolemy gave Saturn the 'joy' of the twelfth relates to it's sect - that is whether it is a diurnal (day) planet or a nocturnal (night) planet. Ptolemy lists Sun, Jupiter and Saturn as diurnal planets. The Sun and Jupiter are obviously Hot planets ruling Fire signs. However Saturn is a cold melancholic planet, which would seem more naturally introverted and nocturnal. By treating Saturn as a diurnal planet, Ptolemy was recognising that Saturn is better placed where it can do less harm - in the day sky.

By the same reasoning, Mars is assigned as a nocturnal planet, even though it is a 'hot and dry' planet. It tones down its capacity for 'mischief'.

The twelfth and sixth houses in a chart (together with the eighth) are the weakest houses in the horoscope, in the sense that planets in these houses are the least able to act effectively. Saturn joys in the twelfth and Mars joys in the sixth, because here they will find it more difficult to act (and of course when they do act they act in a 'malefic' way. Notice that Saturn in the twelfth is placed according to sect in a day chart and Mars in the sixth is nocturnally placed (again according to it's sect in a day chart).

Now there may well be times in which Saturn is highly dignified and therefore is more the teacher and the father than the mischief maker but Saturn is never a bundle of fun, much better to have it placed where at best it can provide a gentle prod in the right direction rather than where it can be the author of mischief (mainly in the shape of fear, low self esteem, melancholy and depression).

Incidentally, in terms of 'natural' rulerships of houses, from a traditional standpoint, Saturn naturally rules the first and the eighth (planets being assigned in Chaldean order) The 'natural' ruler of the twelfth is Venus.

Minderwiz
31-03-2005, 20:58
I went looking for some other comments on Saturn and the twelftth and found these thoughts in Frawley's 'Real Astrology'

He starts from proposition that the malign affects of Saturn and Mars are nothing to do with us and are part of a 'malign conspiracy' against us. In this sense, he says the joy of Saturn in the twelfth (and Mars in the sixth) would seem to be appropriately where they can do most harm.

He then reminds his readers that the twelfth is the house of self undoing, of our own sins and failings. This is the area of life that we need most restraint and therefore most need for Saturn - which restrains us from sin and therefore frees us from it.

Frawley is a rather idiosychratic 'traditionalist' but his comments are interesting. I doubt very much that these are the reasons for Ptolemy's joys, as the need to restrain 'sin' is very much a judeao-Christian one and post dates Ptolemy

isthmus nekoi
01-04-2005, 00:44
Thanks for the replies!

The twelfth and sixth houses in a chart (together with the eighth) are the weakest houses in the horoscope, in the sense that planets in these houses are the least able to act effectively. Saturn joys in the twelfth and Mars joys in the sixth, because here they will find it more difficult to act (and of course when they do act they act in a 'malefic' way.

Hm... I haven't really found this to be the case. It seems to me that Saturn in 12th makes it function in a more insiduous way that makes it more difficult to consciously come to terms with the energy. But I can see why you'd want a malific somewhere it will do the least damage!! Hm, but Frawley's "malign conspiracy" (and Dave's description of the transit) sounds a bit like bad karma doesn't it? Or at least feeling like you believe in it!...

(p.s. so by the reasoning of putting the malific where it can't hurt, Mars rules the water triplicity b/c he's a bit "cooled down" in them? I always wondered about that water thing b/c I've found Mars in water to be challenging for people. In water, all of Mars' accidents and rashness turn to steam! Perhaps the ancients favoured a different type of personality. We seem to like the rash and accidental these days.)

Minderwiz
01-04-2005, 05:59
Thanks for the replies!


Hm... I haven't really found this to be the case. It seems to me that Saturn in 12th makes it function in a more insiduous way that makes it more difficult to consciously come to terms with the energy. But I can see why you'd want a malific somewhere it will do the least damage!! Hm, but Frawley's "malign conspiracy" (and Dave's description of the transit) sounds a bit like bad karma doesn't it? Or at least feeling like you believe in it!...

(p.s. so by the reasoning of putting the malific where it can't hurt, Mars rules the water triplicity b/c he's a bit "cooled down" in them? I always wondered about that water thing b/c I've found Mars in water to be challenging for people. In water, all of Mars' accidents and rashness turn to steam! Perhaps the ancients favoured a different type of personality. We seem to like the rash and accidental these days.)

It's not a question of no effect it's a question of mitigation. Mars is always challenging to action, the argument is not that it would stop Mars but that it would slow him down enough to make better use of the energy - it's the basic principle of lubricating highly frictional surfaces. No lubrication - it's all action for a while and then seizes up. Add lubrication and the action lasts longer at a rather lower temperature.

'Insidious' implies that Saturn is not acting directly but that any effect is subtle and partly hidden or obscured. Again I don't think that the original idea was that Saturn was 'neutered' but that the worst effects are mitigated. In Lee Lehman's book on Horary Astrology she says that Saturn is at it's 'worst' when placed at an Angle -especially the first, tenth and seventh houses.

As for the personality types, I think you are right - have a read of Lee Lehman's article on the humors and lifestyle changes -

http://web.infinito.it/utenti/a/astrologica/humors.htm

isthmus nekoi
02-04-2005, 03:03
Thanks for clarifying, Minderwiz. This hot/cold dry/wet system is actually pretty logical. Here's a great article w/a picture to aid one's understanding of Ptolemy's planetary humours: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/ptolemy.html