Reflections and Opinions on the Process of Reading by a Tarot (A)gnostic.

When I was brand spanking new to this site, I was also new to tarot, as well as to matters occult, or spiritual, and I posted blind, heretical questions, without fear.

I did not know enough to worry about upsetting people with subversive questions like "does tarot actually work?", or "do you have to believe in tarot in order for it to work" - (a thread I began, inadvertently starting a sort of flame war, sorry!).

But I've been poking obsessively around this site now for what, three years? And I find some of my reservations are not going away. And I thought I owed it to you all to honestly share these thoughts.


It occurred to me there is a sense in which I do not think tarot of itself does actually "work" -- at least not always.

(but what does "working” mean?)

As much as I have seen ball-busting holey-moley-yes-virginia-there-is-a-God readings, I have also seen enough readings which were completely off-the mark and irrelevant... to observe that it is *not* a given that something meaningful or relevant can be learned by simply shuffling the cards and throwing them down onto the table.

I am not one who can accept the idea that something divine "arranges" the cards meaningfully, or even that "synchronicity" is at work, in preparing exactly the perfect message. Yes, I do believe that there can be such a thing as "the wrong cards" thrown onto the table.

At the same time, I concede that it is useful to accept the premise of "synchonicity" -- otherwise one could never settle on a throw, and would be continually reshuffling, looking for the "right cards" -- or even, would just go through the deck open faced and choose them.

My personal view, is that the cards in a throw offer *possibilities* and only possibilities. When I turn over a card, I consider it to be the seed of a thought, and am interested to see what those seeds can grow into.

One of the reasons that I personally object to the notion of "static" meanings, (if there truly is such a thing) is that if I accept a pre-written meaning, the little seed might not grow into something bigger.

In fact I do think that with all cards, the possibilities are inexhaustible.

For this reason, my ideal approach would be to look at the cards drawn, each time, as if it were the very first time seeing them, and to be open to discovering not only something new in the card each time, but also a new "focal point" -- because I have noticed that depending on the question, an entirely different focal point within the card can catch my attention as representative of the sitter’s situation.

Take the nine of pentacles for example (RWS). One day it might be the snail that sticks out, and I might derive a message of patience, for example, or, say, a thought about crawling through the mud, or perhaps even a message about continuing ones course ploddingly and faithfully, even while lying at the feet of greatness, or in danger of being crushed.

Or conversely, I might find focus on the woman not noticing the snail, and suggest there is something important that is not being seen, something small, but which contains the entire world, and it is lying at your very feet...

Another day I might notice the falcon. The focal point might be fact that the bird is hooded and bonded, and I might derive a message about being tied down, and held back, restricted or somehow enslaved.

Another day, it might be the woman's hand in this relationship that catches my attention, and the fact that she is more powerful in combination with her animal partner, and derive a message about teamwork; or perhaps about chanelling ones own animal energy in order to gain strength; or a recommendation to go beyond one's human limits by engaging an outside force...

The next day I might focus on the abundance of the garden around, and think it is a recommendation to be aware that Eden is here on earth, and to open one's eyes to the bounty before you...

Truly, I do think the possibiliities are endless, especially in combination with a particular question, a particular situation, and of course in function with a spread... and OTHER CARDS.

"But Firemaiden", says the Cosmic Toaster, "if the possibilities are inexhaustible, how could you ever get the wrong cards?? Surely, if every card the entire world within it, it also contains at least the rest of the deck, and well then, each and every card would potentially be "the right card".

Ah yes, CT, that is elegantly stated. Corollary-wise, while every card has the potential to be the right card, I am not sure it is terribly important which card is pulled. More important is that it be read, that it be taken as a seed for further thought, as a point of entry to open up a line of inquiry, or the opening for a discussion (if the sitter is in front of you for example). Furthermore, if the card pulled does not lead to a fruitful line of inquiry, I would not be adverse to discarding it, and choosing a new one. I do not personally believe one should be married to the draw. It is, in my line of reasoning, only a piece of cardboard, a tool meant to serve, and if it does not do the job, I am happy to draw a different card. I ask myself, why make the task impossible? what does it prove?

Firemaiden, my first impulse was to resist and recoil from what you're saying here. As a fairly new reader, I need to have some sort of faith in the system I'm learning, otherwise I have nothing to hold onto. If I can't be sure I'm drawing the "right" cards every time, that the Divine Spirit (God, Goddess, collective unconscious, insert your Force here) has by some mechanism I don't understand arranged exactly the right cards in exactly the right order, then what is the point of all this? It's hard enough sometimes to divine the intended meaning without worrying about whether or not the "right" card may be still in the deck somewhere.

And yes, I do believe the meaning is intended by Somebody or Something--other than me or the querent--and it's my job to try and figure it out. Sometimes it's clear, sometimes it's not.

But your post is the second time in less than 24 hours I've been forced to consider a different theory. I signed on to post my own story about an experience I had last night that kind of shook my foundations, and now things are even shakier. I DO strongly believe in synchronicity, and the fact that you mentioned noticing little details in the pictures has an interesting parallel in my own experience. I'm wondering if I'll have to rebuild my Tower after all is said and done.

Anyway, I'm going to go post my story so you'll know what I'm talking about. The title will be "A tale of two readers". And THANK YOU. I'm learning that when I have a visceral reaction against something, it usually means I need to pay closer attention because there's an important lesson in there. I very often end up embracing what I initially reject.

Blessings,
Denise

To me, what does it prove is exactly the question.

I can't see how anyone could ever be certain that their reading was correct if they could not decide upon what their reading actually meant. So I stick to pretty rigid meanings. (Although, regardless of how fluid with the meanings the reader is- it can still be judged whether the reading is accurate. But, that can be approched "fluidly" as well. If both the meanings and the accuracy of the reading were approached fluidly- to me, that sounds like chaos, and an exercise in futility.)

I don't know if that is why I haven't gotten any "nonsense" readings, or if the reason I don't get readings which don't seem to make sense is because I only read when I really want to know something- and not for recreation and not for other people.
I do sometimes get readings which relate to something that was not asked, which I know because the events which follow directly after were described by those readings. Usually that happens when something important is about to happen.

I would not use tarot at all if I had not proved to myself early on that the readings that I did for myself were accurate.

I've seen way too many people who I know personally and who I don't know fool themselves about way too many things to allow myself the chance to do that. I am entirely capable of fooling myself, and coming up with stories, and imagining scenarios (not visually, because I'm not a visual thinker), and speculating about all and sundry. I use tarot to let me get out of my own imagination, and to see more clearly.

I've been a bit disconcerted to find among the users of tarot the same kind of (sorry, but this is how I see it) muddled imagination based thinking which I've seen in so many religious people, and so many other kinds of people.
In my experience, divination has been the one thing which I have experienced which is an actual supernatural experience that has nothing to do with my own internal workings. I've made sure of that. Again and again. It gives me the wonderful experience that there really is something deeper going on (that isn't about the magic of the imagination.) Nothing could be more sad and lonely and hopeless to me than the idea that each of our individual realities is made of nothing but our own imagination. Divination has shown me that there really is connection. There really is meaning. And I don't have to take on the impossible task of figuring it all out for myself.

If anyone really cares about proving that divination is not based only in the imagination of the reader, then they should remove their own imagination from the equation, and have real criteria about whether a reading is true.

In my experience, when I get The Tower, it is not just a possibility. Something happens. Something which I did not make happen, and which I cannot prevent happening happens.
In my experience, the Nine Of Swords does not ever mean anything remotely like The Sun.
I have chosen to set these boundaries, and it has served me very well.

Other styles suit others well, it seems. But still. I really wonder why anyone who thinks it doesn't matter which cards come up reads the cards at all.

"(A)gnostic" is a pretty good description of my spiritual state at this point. Agnostic about whatever the reality of the spiritual world really is. And Gnostic about divination working. Because I know it works for me.

I never asked anyone if it really worked, or if I needed to believe in it to work. I was not looking for a religion, or a belief system, or a teacher. Instead I used it, and discovered for myself that it worked, and that I didn't need to believe in it.

Maybe in some mystical way, everything is true. But in the practical world, it is most definite that not everything is true about every thing. For me, tarot is a tool for living practically in the world. I am very happy that I don't have to live with such ambiguity as the idea that any card or reading could mean anything a person wants it to. And I thank the theoretical spiritual realtity for letting me have some real true and clear experiences finally. Every "spiritual" thing before divination for me was an utter letdown, and, well, as I see it, a lie. I want the truth. Whatever it is. I can't just make it up. Divination gives that to me, in little manageable pieces.

I guess we can all get out of it what we're looking for. But I don't see why anyone would use such a potentially powerful tool as divination in a way which would only achieve something which can be gotten at by other means (such as meditation, or brainstorming, talking to others, or writing stories, etc. etc. etc.)
And aside from the imaginative get-you-thinking uses, there are the "psychic" uses. For the psychic uses- you don't need the cards. You don't need toothpicks. You don't need chicken bones. You don't need anything. All you need to be is a reciever.
Now, if someone was successful in triggering their own receptivity through particular exercises, then well and good for them. And good that they tell their stories. But everyone is different. Some people don't need to do such exercises to get similar effects. Some might need to do different exercises.
We have to seperate the subjective from the objective if we want to try to understand anything. Yes, in the end, maybe it's all the same. Maybe. But maybe it's only all the same from the perspective of an omnicient being. We will never be omnicient. We need to make distinctions as human beings, if we really want to understand anything.
That is, if we want to understand. Many people don't. I wish them well.

Firemaiden, I too came to tarot from a (to my mind now) "overly rational", "non occult oriented" background and became initially attracted to tarot because of surprise in that it does work and trying to figure out why. I agree with just about everything you said in your post, but I would like to put my two cents in about something you said:

firemaiden said:

"But Firemaiden", says the Cosmic Toaster, "if the possibilities are inexhaustible, how could you ever get the wrong cards?? Surely, if every card the entire world within it, it also contains at least the rest of the deck, and well then, each and every card would potentially be "the right card".

Ah yes, CT, that is elegantly stated. Corollary-wise, while every card has the potential to be the right card, I am not sure it is terribly important which card is pulled. More important is that it be read, that it be taken as a seed for further thought, as a point of entry to open up a line of inquiry, or the opening for a discussion (if the sitter is in front of you for example). Furthermore, if the card pulled does not lead to a fruitful line of inquiry, I would not be adverse to discarding it, and choosing a new one.

Click to expand...

(Prepare yourself for a few slightly more "heretical" tarot thoughts.) I believe that tarot works precisely because every card can be the "right" card, for any given situation. It does not really, in the end, matter which cards are pulled, but how the reader relates them to the situation at hand and the question posed. It is possible to pull potential wisdom from any card, in regard to any subject, at any time. To me, if ever the card seems to be the wrong one, it is a failing on the part of the reader to do so. (Something which happens to us all now and then, I'm sure.) Part of the joy of tarot reading to me, is the way tarot allows us to give thoughtful insight into our lives in an entertaining way. And one of my prerequisites for any thing like this is fulfilled by tarot: I don't have to believe in it because it works whether I believe in it or not.

Wow, what wonderful posts. Dreamer, I thank you for writing with such passion and eloquence. Your post was very moving, and certainly gives me pause to think there could be an aspect I haven't experienced yet.

Firemaiden: you said some very important things. I also read elysgrl's thread and replied on it, so I won't repeat myself.

But one thing I think is true. The cards are only little pretty pictures on cardstock, but they open up our...call it the third eye, our psychic sense, wherever, that ALL of us have. The cards are like Inkblots (and your comment on sometimes it's the snail, sometimes it's something else is very right on to me!) they help you see what is OUT THERE. but they are not magic in themselves. They are like magic wands, they help you DO magic but they are only plastic or wood.

Ace

The Dreamer said:

In my experience, divination has been the one thing which I have experienced which is an actual supernatural experience that has nothing to do with my own internal workings. I've made sure of that. Again and again. It gives me the wonderful experience that there really is something deeper going on (that isn't about the magic of the imagination.) Nothing could be more sad and lonely and hopeless to me than the idea that each of our individual realities is made of nothing but our own imagination. Divination has shown me that there really is connection. There really is meaning. And I don't have to take on the impossible task of figuring it all out for myself.

Click to expand...

You know, despite our apparently divergent approaches, I totally agree with you. My experience of reading for others, and occasionally for myself, has shown me absolutely that there is connection and there really is meaning. For me, the point of magic, lies first in the moment where the details "pop" up from the card, and then in the flood of weird thoughts that seem to flow therefrom.

As a recent example, I asked a question about my upcoming opening night in an opera. I was Lady Macbeth. I turned over the world card - reversed from the "Estensi" tarot. (Lo Scarabeo's 78 card recreation of the so-called "Gringonneur" or "Charles VI" deck.) It shows a women in a red dress, standing on the globe. Well, I had just spent several days getting together the perfect RED dress, it looked not-unsimilar to that of the World. It showed me standing on stage - in the red dress.

Of all the ways to interpret the World card, one of my favorites is of "being on top of the world", and "all the world is a stage". This time the detail that zinged out was the RED of the red dress. I took the reversal as a message to take the stage and I would be on top of the world. (The opening went exactly as I had wished and hoped for).

It is almost impossible to explain, but I don't think that the details that pop out, or the ideas that come to mind are only the product of my imagination.

If I am in the proper space, I feel like I become sort of "hollow" - and the ideas that pop up do not feel like they are coming from me, it feels like I'm tapping into something else, like sticking my hand in a flow of electricity or something, and there is a sense of finding a vein, like a quartz vein in granite, and then mining it as far as it goes. Sometimes the vein goes very deep, and I keep on pulling more and more out. I go on until it is over.

The images on the card, as well as the ideas behind it (like the special qualities of the number and suit) all seem to feed this strange magic that does happen.

How good it is that we can recieve these messages.

I have had similar experiences of visual effects happening when looking at things- which seem to be from an entirely non imagination based intuitive faculty of some kind. I will look at a book or cd, and the color of it will glow out more than the things around it. I will pick up the object and listen to it or read it and get information or an experience that I needed at the time.

I distrusted that at first, because it followed an experience of my senses going a bit screwy- one particular color glowing in general for a while, and then another color for a while, was how it started.
And probably the things which scare me most are the ideas of hallucination and being separated from reality, and from other people.

But, after the initial variation, it never happened unless I was getting a "message". Which I tested each time, and still do, when it happens.
This process of my senses having become disorganized and then actually reorganizing into a more well functioning whole is symbolized to me by the Thoth tower card, with its eye of knowledge at the top, and its dove of hope flying off. When I get it, as opposed to other tower cards, it has meant reorganization into a better form- as well as, and not only just, upheaval.
I consider my various decks to be like one big deck. Each tower card is a bit different, but means only what it means when I draw it.

I have always had great distrust of those who claim they are recieving something by "intuition". For the majority of my life I did not have any. And a lot of what people claimed was intuition was nothing but imagination, it seemed to me. My mother is one such person. And, people would misread me all the time, so it showed that their intution was incorrect.
Then I began to recieve (after a kind of cataclysmic personal upheaval) intuition, real intuition, which I test every time it comes. I was not seeking after it, but there it is. I'm a skeptic with intuition now. Who feels compelled to test. Especially myself.

It is clear that many people can get readings which obviously turn out to be true by using less rigid methods than I use.
Probably the distinction which I want to make between the psychic function and what is found in the cards does not need to be made as clearly as I make it. For me, though, I'm really afraid of going off into some imaginary world instead of getting a real answer when I read the cards, so I don't want to do it that way. And, I think that it's always useful to seperate things out first, even if they are put back together in the end. I prefer to sort, rather than to lump. That way I know what's in the pile of ideas I'm dealing with.

I wonder if tarot automatically "speaks" to each person in the form which is most useful to them, or if we decide how it will speak to us by what we do. Perhaps a combination of the two. My experience has shown me that there is defintely an outside "force" going on when divination occurs. If I did not make distinctions in the way that I do, I would not be able to say that with certainty. Hearing twenty people say "it works this way, or because of this" about anything means absolutely nothing to me if I do not know why they think it works that way.
I am always glad to find someone who does not have a certainty about something, because that shows they are actually thinking. Even better is when someone can say something with certainty after having passed through the doubt and consequently really done some testing or examination.

It is clear that the particular world card with the red dress conveyed the message for you in a way which could have been conveyed by few other, if any other, cards. What a great thing that the right card was drawn, and that your intuitive faculty worked with it such that the message could be recieved.

I've just read Elysgrl's thread about the reader who uses the image based approach. I can see how that could work, although I tend to distrust imagery more than words. Words are not always clear, but I think that imagery can mean many more things potentially than words can, which makes me trust it less for something where I'm trying to get information. And, it seems like it's more about various things the reader may zero in upon in the image rather than what the card itself as a whole presents, although I do think that cards' meanings, even when interpreted purely visually, are not totally fluid or interchangeable.

It's hard to test the truth of every tarot reading, but I do think trying to do so is a worthy goal. And that is the only way which would show whether any particular approach to interpretation is really a useful one to use for any particular reader.

It's fine to say that a reader should not "tell" a sitter something. But, no matter how people try to get around it, a person getting a reading is there to get information. The person doing the reading is going to tell them. Both think that information has been recieved, and is being transmitted. If they did not, they would not be engaging in the reading. Telling will occur. Everyone is afraid of saying the wrong thing. That is appropriate. But, everyone also believes that there is a thing to say. No one thinks the reader just makes something up. Not even the most hardcore storytelling based reader really thinks that they don't need the cards. They may say they think they don't, but they use the cards anyway.

Anyone who thinks tarot cards are nothing but inkblots should use real inkblots to test that theory. Really. It might work for some people. I don't know.

Whatever strange magic occurs, it should always bring us back into engagement with reality. If it doesn't- it's not magic, it's psychosis. Sorry to be blunt, but that is my fear, and I think a well founded one.

Enough of my lengthy reflections for the moment.

The Dreamer - you are right: imagination and intuition belong together. They are both modes of expression from a non-rational part of us (or beyond). In me, they work closely together. I use my imagination very much when I read. Does that make me a bad reader? Not for me to answer. But I couldn't do without either. I really do believe Tarot reading is made up of many areas of our brain and the rational is only one small element - the one that arranges things in order to transmit to someone else or to oneself.

For me it works like writing. I have to get out of my way when I read or I get it all wrong - I mean my logic brain and my emotions must not take front seat here, though I'll allow them in at the end, when the reading is done. If I don't I project on others, or cloud myself; or become overly cerebral - it is already a fault I have.

But firemaiden: I don't believe there are wrong cards - ever. There are wrong interpretations, or there are cards turning up that have nothing to do with the question, but with another part of the querent's life. That's a tricky one to pick up!!

When I read your post firemaiden...I identified with almost all, if not all of what you said.

I was even thinking of "stealing" your former name ....Puzzled Skeptic.

I'm in a funk about Tarot now.

I question it all the time.

I do believe, though, that somehow, I am a receiver....or a "noticer" of things and I do believe that I must let my meditative reflection allow my imagination to work.

This is one of the main reason, I have shyed more and more away from discussing meanings of a card....by itself, outside a spread, outside of a reading ...

I keep thinking about how each time a card appears, I notice something else...

Today in the fun and games section where we pair a card with food...I kept seeing the two pentacles in the Two of Pents (RWS) as someone flipping pizza dough round and round till it's right to put on the baking tray.

Each time, something different and sometimes...totally weird comes to me and I start speaking and somehow, at the end, there is a message, there is some meaning and some guidance....I guess.

Possibilities....Sometimes I think of the concept of "alternate realities" and think that a given card, depending on where it is, or the cards in a spread overall...present a myriad of "alternate possibilities" for the sitter....

I haven't been reading live lately...just in a strange place with the whole idea of someone coming to me for a reading. I feel better reading for myself, and have been avoiding that as well, because I usually get what I need not what I want to see or hear .....

When I read for live sitters, while I may not pick a "different" card, I often end up pulling another whole set to cover the first set...to clarify...or sometimes, just another card for one card...sometimes, one card just doesn't seem to fit at all...and that one is one I really focus on...

I'm not sure where I am with the Tarot. I know it's in my life to stay.

I will read when someone asks me to read for them.

I no longer require or expect feedback, but I do like the reading to be an interaction, a discussion, since I believe the sitter has just as much that is of importance to the process to help us build together some meaning

from this Tower of Cards...

I can speak for myself...you have done two rather significant readings for me and in each, there was much that was of great help to me at the time...

Remember the paintbrush?? And you asked me what I thought it meant and it had clear implications for some fears that were lurking beneath the surface.

Certainly a paintbrush could mean many things to many people, but at that moment, it stood out for you and pulled from me, that which was begging to come to the surface. Isn't this what we hope to achieve when we interact in a reading???

t