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Sophie
15-06-2005, 00:24
I have a couple of questions concerning nodes:

- how can I determine my south and north node? On astro.com I am given my true node, but not the south and north;

- does the south node/past-present north node/present-future work the same way in the Southern Hemisphere? Shouldn't people born in the S Hemisphere reverse that?

- what's the true node (symbolically) in relation to the South and North nodes?

Thanks!

Leo62
15-06-2005, 01:41
As far as I understand it, the true node is your north node. You can work out your south node from this, as it's 180 degrees opposed to the north e.g. if your true node is 5 degrees Gemini, then your north node is 5 deg Gemini and your south node is 5 deg Sagittarius - hope this makes sense :)

Minderwiz
15-06-2005, 03:00
The Nodes are the points where a planet's orbit (the Moon's in this particular case) cross the ecliptic. The ecliptic is the apparant path of the Sun around the Earth. The North Node of the Moon (or any planet) is the point where it crosses the ecliptic from South moving North. The South Node is it's polar opposite (as explained in the post above), with the Moon crossing the ecliptic from North moving South.

All planets have nodes but only the Moon's nodes are used regularly - mainly because they progress around the zodiac much more quickly than those for other planets. In the Moon's case they take some 18 yeas to complete a circle of the zodiac.

Now because of the wobble of the Earth on it's axis (caused by the proximity of the Moon) the nodes actually vary slightly as seen from Earth on a day to day basis. the 'True Node' is the node that's actually observed. The Mean node averages out the wobble effect.

You will find that there is a fair amount of discussion as to which of these is the best measure to use. The main difference, apart from the variation in position, is that the Mean Node is always retrograde, but the True Node can move in direct motion for some days and such periods can be taken as significant (usually as stressful periods).

tonto
15-06-2005, 07:26
The Nodes are the points where a planet's orbit
~
, but the True Node can move in direct motion for some days and such periods can be taken as significant (usually as stressful periods).

Minderwiz,

You said a lot but what did you say?

I take it the True Node does roughly coincide (close enough for government work?) with the North Node and the South Node is 180 degrees opposed to the North?

Namaste

Minderwiz
15-06-2005, 08:29
Ah Tonto - I'll try again,

There are two nodes North and South.

You can measure these as either 'True' (for both) or 'Mean' (also for both).

So, 'True' is a way of measuring the North node and the South node - it incorporates the fluctuations in the nodes (which are points on the ecliptic) due to the 'wobble' in the Earth's rotation. Remember the Nodes are positions relative to Earth and if the Earth wobbles then their position appears also to wobble. Averaging their position makes life easier (though possibly at the cost of important Astrological information).

'Mean' North and South nodes are the average position of the nodes - that is the position averaging out the effect of the Earth's wobble.

As The North node can be measured either way you can have both a True North node and a Mean North node. 'True' has no separate existence from either 'True North' or 'True South' node. Refering to 'True node' simple means that the measurement of both nodes includes the effect of the Earth's wobble

Now most ephemerides (books of Astrological tables of day to day positions of planets and points) and websites will give either True North node (the True South node being 180 degrees away) or the Mean North node (the Mean South node being 180 degrees away). There is no point in listing both North and South nodes (whichever measurement is used) because once one is known then so is the other.

if you're OK on that I'll try and answer the question about any differences if you live in the Southern hemisphere.

Pipkin
15-06-2005, 08:40
True Node is another way of saying 'North Node' from astro.com. The south node is always the same degree as the north node but in the opposite sign and house.

I think the reason the south node is not shown in astro.com could be to do with the associations of the north node (or true node as it can otherwise be called). The north node is said to be a 'getting to' point in the chart, an area of the chart we should be paying close attention to, to incorporate into our life - the north node could be the challenge laid down to us if you like, as the south node is often considered to have a past connection, something that, if you believe in past life, you may already have an understanding or experience of. There is much more to the nodes.

I don't know about reversing this for SH, haven't researched this.

Astraea
15-06-2005, 08:51
The best book on the nodes that I have ever seen, bar none, is Jan Spiller's Astrology for the Soul. You can read more about it here: http://www.janspiller.com/books.php (scroll down a bit; it's the second book listed).

Minderwiz
15-06-2005, 09:08
Hi Pipkin

The reason why Astrocom and all programs and ephemerides don't bother listing the South node is that it's a redundant exercise - once you have the North node, you automatically know the position of the South node. It has nothing to do with interpretational meanings, though traditionally the North node has been seen as benevolent - so it's a more friendly approach to the listing :)

As I tried to point out in the previous posts, True node is not the same as North node - 'True' is simply a definition of the measuring system used (for both nodes).

The Moon crossing a nodal point begins a cycle (similar in principle to the cycles of the lunations) these could be measured from a starting point of the North or South node. In fact most cyclical approaches use the lunation cycle from New Moon to Full Moon and back again. Any difference between the Northern and Southern hemispheres depends on the extent to which you feel that sign meanings should be changed to reflect the reversed seasons. The vast majority of Astrologers don't consider this a useful approach - though of course that doesn't make them right :)

There are some approaches which keep to a nodal cycle, and I'll deal with those in my next post.

Flidais
15-06-2005, 12:02
A book I have found helpful is The Astrologer's Node Book by Donna Van Toen. She offers several possible "meanings" for the Nodes in general, including "meaningless clutter," "past and future karma," "how you relate to your environment," and "points of good luck and bad luck."

She then describes implications for the locations of the Nodes in each house and planetary aspects to the nodes in the birth chart.

tonto
15-06-2005, 13:44
Ah Tonto - I'll try again,

Wow! You sound just like my wife/boss/friends! Must be some kind of theme here.

There are two nodes North and South.

You can measure these as either 'True' (for both) or 'Mean' (also for both).

So, 'True' is a way of measuring the North node and the South node - it incorporates the fluctuations in the nodes

'Mean' North and South nodes are the average position of the nodes

'True' has no separate existence from either 'True North' or 'True South' node. Refering to 'True node' simple means that the measurement of both nodes includes the effect of the Earth's wobble

Ok! I got it now, thanks. So if only one node is designated on a chart I know the other node, will be 180 degrees opposite the defined node. True or mean is just a difference in the accuracy of the measurement of the node. True takes in the earths wobble, mean is just that the mean.

Is there enough of a variance between the two (True vs. Mean) to make a significant difference in a reading?

If only one node is denoted on a chart, does that mean the other node is de-noded on this particular chart?

If only one node is denoted on a chart, how do I know if it is the North or South node? This may seem extremely simple minded (hence my handle - Tonto) but is it simply by the position of the node in the chart? North will always appear in the 7 - 12th house, South in the 1 - 6th house? (Please don't be offended by my ignorance, I am asking the question in good faith)

if you're OK on that I'll try and answer the question about any differences if you live in the Southern hemisphere.

mmmmm, maybe I'll save that one for another day!

But I do appreciate you taking the time to educate me and also your good natured willingness to let me poke you a little!

tonto
15-06-2005, 13:57
The best book on the nodes that I have ever seen, bar none, is Jan Spiller's Astrology for the Soul. You can read more about it here: http://www.janspiller.com/books.php (scroll down a bit; it's the second book listed).

Got it!
Love it!
Love Jan!

paradoxx
15-06-2005, 15:20
If only one node is denoted on a chart, how do I know if it is the North or South node? This may seem extremely simple minded (hence my handle - Tonto) but is it simply by the position of the node in the chart? North will always appear in the 7 - 12th house, South in the 1 - 6th house? (Please don't be offended by my ignorance, I am asking the question in good faith)



mmmmm, maybe I'll save that one for another day!



The north node and south node are listed here with their respective glyphs. They cycle through the zodiac like any most otehr aspects (there are some aspects that are bound to only one side of the chart).

The north node is currently in Aries and is making a trine to Pluto in Sagittarius. Time to relax into destiny.

Sophie
15-06-2005, 18:06
Thanks for the replies!

So if my True Node on astro.com is Taurus 8, that's my North Node? Which would make my South Node Scorpio 8. Have I got this right?

Pipkin
15-06-2005, 18:45
Thanks for the replies!

So if my True Node on astro.com is Taurus 8, that's my North Node? Which would make my South Node Scorpio 8. Have I got this right?

Yes that's right.

Sophie
15-06-2005, 22:08
Thank you :)

Minderwiz
16-06-2005, 21:00
Some charts generated on a website or using software only plot the North Node - which has a glyph rather like an upturned letter 'U' but with a bit of scrolling on the tails.

In these cases it is up to you to remember that the South node is 180 degrees away.

If this causes any problems, look for a website or software that also plots the South node - which has a glyph that is a upside down North node - i.e. it looks like a letter 'U' with little scrolly bits at the top of the uprights.

The House position of the North node depends entirely on the time of day when you were born and it's possible for it to be in any House. Therefore you can have a situation in which the North node appears in the Southern part of your chart (Houses 1 to 7 working clockwise around the chart).

I'll leave the post on nodal cycles till another day :)

cutiecutie
17-06-2005, 17:49
So it was interesting finding out my north and south node, but what does this say about me? Someone said mission in life?

Pipkin
17-06-2005, 19:39
Cutie

You would look at the sign that your nodes occupy, the south node is said to be familiar traits, the south node often being cited as the past connection node, albeit these may be latent, the north node would be the traits and area to incorporate, the houses that these node occupy is as important as this offers guidance as to the area of your life. Once you have the sign and house position of your nodes an internet search can throw up loads of information for you.

For example, you might have a south node in the 2nd house of your chart, which deals with your money and assets, material values, therefore your north node will be in the 8th - this is a more shared resources house, the house that deals with others' money...it could be, say, that with other trends within your chart you could use your money organisation skills (if you have them) to good use for others, you might make a good personal accountant. The 8th deals with taxes, inheritances, insurances as well as other things...another slant could be that you are encouraged to develop personal skills in this area, equally that you make less of 'personal' ownership of money (from the 2nd house). The 8th also has transformational qualities, letting go of outmode and outdated patterns, so a north node in the 8th could send the message to take a more spiritual approach even to money and shared resources.

Once you've got some info on this you can then look at any connections your other planets make to the nodes, this can throw further light on the function or your nodes.

Pipkin
x

Sophie
17-06-2005, 20:19
OK, from my chart on astro.com: my true (North) node is on the 8th degree of Taurus, in the 12th house. My South node would therefore be in the 8th degree of Scorpio, in the 6th house?

6th house, if I remember rightly, deals with health. Scorpio with transformation, sex and death - eros and thanatos and all that, no?

12th house is the "spiritual" house? the invisible, the mysterious, the unconscious? And Taurus deals with material things, with abundance, security, I think?

But how do I weave all that together? what does it actually mean in my life?

Pipkin
17-06-2005, 21:18
OK, from my chart on astro.com: my true (North) node is on the 8th degree of Taurus, in the 12th house. My South node would therefore be in the 8th degree of Scorpio, in the 6th house?

6th house, if I remember rightly, deals with health. Scorpio with transformation, sex and death - eros and thanatos and all that, no?

12th house is the "spiritual" house? the invisible, the mysterious, the unconscious? And Taurus deals with material things, with abundance, security, I think?

But how do I weave all that together? what does it actually mean in my life?

If you take the house positions first you are looking at 6th (south) and 12th (north). Yes, the 6th house is health, but it is also service to others, diet, hobbies and pets :) Both the 12th and 6th houses can deal with healing in different ways - the 6th being more physical body healing and the 12th more spiritual healing, with the 6th and 12th houses coming into play in your chart we could be looking at how you look after yourself, what you do when you need healing or recharging and how you help others as well as yourself. If we take your north node in 12th this suggests finding a balance by knowing when to withdraw, it is the solitary house, if you combine the associations of that house with its creative slant, photography, dance, music and clairvoyance, dreams, meditation you could look at how those features could be used to *your* good - being a participant of the AT forum has probably already found an outlet in one sense. The 12th house opposed to 6th asks you know where the balance is between putting yourself out for others and doing what you need to do for yourself, so sometimes it may be that you have to take a break for you.

If you take in the taurus energy (nn) and scorpio energy (sn) you deal with fixed energy in both cases, taurus would suggest you look after your physical body, knowing when to look for the signs that your physical self needs a break...say stress and tiredness, feeling worn out, taurus in 12th could also be the sign of the secret eater, eating in secret....you could secretly be nurturing yourself with food in private. Scorpio in 6th (sn) could see you have latent abilities with healing, helping people to transform their lives or helping them to achieve that, scorpio past connections could see you being something of a workaholic so perhaps the nn in 12th again asks you to know when to stop working, switch off.

These are just some observations, you may find many more if you choose to explore this further but you can see how the house position and sign can be woven in.

Pipkin

smleite
17-06-2005, 21:46
Helvetica, I was once told that our South and North nodes are signposts that indicate our personal path of evolution, from a karmic perspective. The South node is sometimes called “dragon’s tail”, whereas the North node is the “dragon’s head”, and someone explained me we should make, in our present life, all the way from the tail to the head. The “tail” is like the direction we come through when entering this world, and is about what we already bring with us, and the “head” is the ideal direction we should follow in this lifetime, in order to achieve equilibrium and fulfil our life’s proposes. I know virtually nothing about astrology, so I can only tell you what I was taught…

If it is so, you should learn how to move from Scorpio’s energy and lessons (using them, I suppose) into Taurus. As to me, my North node is in Pisces, which is also my Sun sign, so I suppose I really HAVE to lean something about the 12th house…

Silvia

smleite
17-06-2005, 21:51
This seems to be a clear and simple explanation.

http://karma.astrology.com/nodes.html

Sophie
17-06-2005, 22:06
Thank you Pipkin and Silvia! I like the image of the dragon...very eloquent.

Pipkin - you're not to know but what you wrote resonated like a gong. These are very much my issues - and issues I am very much dealing with now. It's no coincidence I am looking at all this stuff at this point in my life, when I am becoming aware of certain things.

A workaholic in the service of others - you could say that! I was an international red cross worker for years in war zones - forgot what days off meant...Now I am becoming aware of other needs in me - retreat, spiritual healing and the body - this is amazing stuff! I am a writer, btw.

I need to find out more about this dragon! Thanks for the link, Silvia.

Silvia - do you think they work together, your nn and your sun? Is that what you must do, get them to express the best of Pisces?

smleite
17-06-2005, 22:12
Oh Helvetica, I don’t know… My life is a mystery to me. ;D

Silvia

Sophie
17-06-2005, 22:29
Oh Helvetica, I don’t know… My life is a mystery to me. ;DWhat a very piscean/12th house answer ;) So you must turn Sherlock Holmes?

I might say the same (sun and two planets in pisces, and now I know, nn in 12th house).

I have found some other sites with the nodes:

http://members.aol.com/terriastro/nodes.htm

http://www.cafeastrology.com/nodesofthemoon.html

http://www.astrologycom.com/nodes.html

http://www.astrologyforthesoul.com/monnodz.html

The first one I find very simple and clear in defining "the lesson to learn"- and the second one too. I can start on my homework right now. Enjoy the simple things of life, artisically and with soul. A bit of melon, I think - beautifully carved and presented and eaten with spirit :)

Leo62
17-06-2005, 22:30
Oh Helvetica, I don’t know… My life is a mystery to me. ;D

Silvia
Heheh a very Piscean answer! ;)

Another slant on the nodes; from a past-life point of view (and this is useful if you believe in them or not), the south node represents "where you have come from", ie. the lessons you have learned and integrated from previous life - and also the habits you have picked up. The south node is what we are familiar with, where we feel safe. We gravitate towards it in times of stress and fear; it is home. You often find that people live out the south node in the earlier part of their lives, then at some point hear the call of the north...
The north node represents "where you are going" in this incarnation - the lessons to be learned, skills to be mastered etc. It often indicates areas where we are poorly developed, things that appear in our lives repeatedly in our lives as a challenge.
So, for example, Helvetica's north node in Taurus in the 12th might represent the "call" of a spiritual life, which might be difficult to integrate or fit into a pattern of 6th-house work-and-duty obligations. Being in Taurus, the spiritual call might come through a love of nature, or beautiful things, or music...
The challenge is to balance the old, familiar 6th house sense of duty and service with the 12th-house call to withdraw and follow a spiritual path...As it's Taurus and Scorpio, it may be about integrating the "deep water" of raging emotions, death, conflict etc, with a more grounded, earthy, self-loving way of being...

Hope this does not add to the confusion...:)

Sophie
17-06-2005, 22:40
Leo - it's not added to the confusion, quite the opposite, but of course it begs the question - how to integrate these two opposing pulls - how does the dragon learn to live with head and tail?

Very much what I am working with at the moment, this is fascinating.


I wonder, too, about the aspects to the nodes. What role do they play?

Sophie
17-06-2005, 22:50
I just looked up the Sabian Symbols for my north and south nodes.

My south node (Scorpio 8°41' in the 6th house) - Sabian Symbol Scorpio 9: A Dentist is Hard At Work. This brings together the hard work and the health/service ot others aspect.

My north node (Taurus 8° 41' in the 12th house) - Sabian Symbol Taurus 9: A Crhsitmas Tree is Decorated and Shines in the Darkness. This brings together nature, beauty, darkness (mystery) and artistic expression.

Fascinating!

Leo62
17-06-2005, 23:20
I wonder, too, about the aspects to the nodes. What role do they play?
Good question ;) And one I often ask myself, as I have the Sun conjunct my Leo north node, and Saturn conjunct my Aquarius south node...

In my experience, planets aspecting the nodes emphasise the "fatedness" of whatever energy or characteristic that planet (and its sign and house) represents. The nodes add a kind of pressure to the expression of that planet in one's life - it is the experience we meet time and time again, no matter how hard we try to avoid it. It becomes the bass note of one's life, a repeating rhythm that lies at the bottom of all our experiences. It begins to feel as if all roads lead to this one place, this one story or energy...

I think integrating the nodes is a lifetime's journey; a continuing, dynamic balancing act between habit and experience and the siren call of the unknown...

Leo62
17-06-2005, 23:22
My south node (Scorpio 8°41' in the 6th house) - Sabian Symbol Scorpio 9: A Dentist is Hard At Work. This brings together the hard work and the health/service ot others aspect.

My north node (Taurus 8° 41' in the 12th house) - Sabian Symbol Taurus 9: A Crhsitmas Tree is Decorated and Shines in the Darkness. This brings together nature, beauty, darkness (mystery) and artistic expression.
My god, those are perfect symbols. I particularly love the Christmas tree image - how wonderfully Taurean! And strangely, they seem to fit the houses as well as the signs...

Sophie
17-06-2005, 23:37
Leo, what you say is really making sense. You see, I have Mars in Scorpio conjunct my South Node in the 6th house. Now I understand Mars is the traditional ruler of Scorpio (some modern astrologers use Pluto). Mars is also the aggressive planet - and the god of war.

As you know - and I've mentioned on this thread - I have done my "hard work" and my "service" in warzones...

Somehow I cannot get away from war. I am fascinated by it, and sometimes I think it my "natural" work environment - which is pretty screwy when you think about it. A lot - not all, but a lot - of my writing has to do with war and that even before I went off with the red cross. And of course all the time during my service and since. (I also think of those years as "service" - like one might do military service, or fire-fighter's service). But this fascination for war goes deeper, and links with my experience of eros/thanatos - I have known my greatest experiences in those areas in war - and often quite intimately linked. That's quite a Scorpio thing, I think.

- for the Sabian Symbols - yes, I also liked the image of the Christmas tree in the dark - a blend of Taurus and 12th house. It is a good balance with war.

Pipkin
17-06-2005, 23:55
From reading your post it made me want to look up the war poet Wilfred Owen's date of birth (going back to English Lit A level) as I chose to write about him, he was a piscean (18 March 1893) and has mars in taurus. As on an initial search I have no time of birth for him I can't place his ascendant and therefore house positions for his nodes. He has the mars link through his north node in aries, sn therefore libra. He seems to have found a balance from writing about the gory, toll of war - his poems were very descriptive about the physical toll on bodies etc, perhaps that was the libran balance to the act of war he found himself in.

Pipkin

cutiecutie
18-06-2005, 04:07
If I have my north node in Pisces in the 4th house, I assume my south node is in Virgo, but what house is the south node in? Does anyone know what this means? :-)

Minderwiz
18-06-2005, 08:08
If your North Node is in the fourth it's highly probable that your South Node is in the tenth - it certainly will be if you use an equal house system and over 9 times out of 10 it will be in other systems.

The Fourth is family, parents (and your father if you need to differentiate between your parents), home, background, real estate. It can also be seen as the inner you.

The tenth is your career, social status, your employer, your mother (if you need to differentiate between your parents) - in general you in the outside world.

If you are taking a karmic view of the nodes then you bring into this world with you a rather obsessive, and perfectionist approach (possibly to the extent of being a workaholic) to your job and career and your lesson in life is to learn how to combine career with a home life that is in itself rewarding and gives you the opportunity to express something of your spirituality and growth (Pisces is ruled by Jupiter) within your family and domestic circumstances.

Vedic (Indian) Astrologers tend to see the fourth House as more to do with the past and the tenth House more to do with the future. In your case with the North node (more to do with your destiny) in the fourth, you might find it difficult to separate past and future - you might possibly be rather timerous about your future. Again, though it's how you express yourself through your family that will help you deal with your karma.

cutiecutie
18-06-2005, 14:18
Thanks for that Minderwiz. I have heard before that career will be the most important aspect of my life, but so far, I think I am too young to say, having not established myself career-wise yet. But that's fascinating. I can be a bit of a perfectionist and obsessive at times. The issues with past/future, is sooo true for me. It's always been a big issue for me, and I'm very often holding on to the past.

Minderwiz
18-06-2005, 19:47
Just one word of caution - always remember that interpreting one feature out of context of the chart as a whole is a rather dangerous thing to do.

It's always good practice to examine the chart as a whole and try to look at each feature as it relates to the overall personality as described by the chart.

Sophie
18-06-2005, 20:03
That's a good caution, Minderwiz - thanks. I am still at the stage where I can see (some of) the parts, but not yet the sum...

Sophie
18-06-2005, 20:42
On the same subject - do any of you find that different parts of the chart seem relevant at different times of life?

The South node/ North node link seems particularly relevant to my life now.

isthmus nekoi
19-06-2005, 04:02
Helvetica - most certainly different parts of the chart are activated w/transits and progressions. Even empty parts can be activated :)