View Full Version : The Meanings of the Minors: Who First Created Them?
When the Tarot first began to be used for anything other than gaming, it was unillustrated Minors/pips... the 4 of Pentacles didn't havethat misery lookin old man clutching those coins for all he's worth, but just 4 coins. Riveting stuff. ;) I was just wondering: In the changeover from gaming to divination, who was the first person to gve the Minors meanings? How on Earth did they get meanings from them at all???!!! Somebody somewhere must've applied meanings for the first time to the rather horrible looking cards, and somehow those meanings have been passed down to us, although they probably have differed... Who? When? Where? How? And... If one person did do this, then it kinda spoils the theory that secret knowledge is hidden in the cards by their creators...
I guess what I'm asking is where do we get our Minor Arcana meanings from? The Majors I'm not worried about: They've actually got pictures, and anybody can come along and pretty much see similar things in them... But the Minors back ages ago... How could anybody get meainings from them? Did they just sit down one day and randomly associate certain words and life events with certain cards?
"Ah! Now, lemme see... Fights... Plenty of those in real life. Now, which card to put them on? I know! The card with 5 Swords on it.. Oh... But now I have this card with 5 Staves on it left over... Ah, I'll make that one mean Fighting as well! BUT with a very subtle difference... That'll have 'em all fooled...."
Sorry for the ramble, but can anybody enlighten me here...?
Kiama
Starfish
09-06-2002, 19:46
Kiama (love your tag line, btw) -
Interesting question! I can't wait to read the responses. It's a question I've wondered about too.
Starfish
I think you are tredding on 'what's the origin of tarot" ground. Its a very dangerous place to be, fist fights can ensue lo
As for me, to quote an old beer commercial, why ask why? All I know is that its worked for hundreds of years and noone really knows the true answer. So I immerse myself in learning withthe cards,and limit my ideas of how they,and their definitions, came to be to daydreams.
Like what if aliens really DID give them to us lol
:THP
Hi, Kiama, I have the answer to your question!
Actually, I don't, but James Revak does, and if you click here (http://jwrevak.tripod.com/td/td_1.htm) and here (http://jwrevak.tripod.com/emw/emw_1.htm), you can read two long scholarly articles by him which will tell you all (or more than) you ever wanted to know. He basically starts with Etteilla, the first modern well-known cartomancer who published meanings for Tarot cards, and shows how Mathers and Waite based many of their meanings on Etteilla for their Golden Dawn system, and how Waite basically borrowed from both Etteilla and Mathers in developing his meanings for the Rider-Waite deck. It's really very interesting.
BTW, when you say "horrible looking cards," referring to antique non-illustrated decks, them's fightin' words to the many folks here who prefer reading with those decks and don't find them horrible at all! :) (My favorite deck right now is the Gill, which is sort-of semi-illustrated.)
-- Lee
Wow, Kiama,
That is a hard one! I regret still not having read the Nigel Pennick book about games, maybe there is a hint in that one too. He mentioned an Indian game in which Swords, Cups, Disc and Club appear.
I remember that 2 of my friends who do readings with simple playing cards differ in the meaning of Clubs and Spade. For Krystyna Clubs are the "bad" cards whereas for Duska the Spades are the "negative" cards.
When I do readings with playing cards I use a 78 French Tarot set which is usually used for French tarot and I translate Spades, Clubs, etc. just in "normal" Tarot symbols, eg 10 Diamonds are the same for me as 10 of pentacles.
Oh, that was a rambling post, a bit off-topic, I think.
Originally posted by Lee
BTW, when you say "horrible looking cards," referring to antique non-illustrated decks, them's fightin' words to the many folks here who prefer reading with those decks and don't find them horrible at all! :) (My favorite deck right now is the Gill, which is sort-of semi-illustrated.)
-- Lee
Thaks for the links Lee: I'm preparing myself to read them later! I know that 'them's fighting words'... Sorry.. But compared to the kind of decks around today, where we have beautifully illustrated Minors, the decks of old were pretty plain and monotonous... I sometimes makes you wonder how anybody got meanings from them...
I'm also beginnng to rebel against the guy who first wrote down those meanings... Here I am reading the cards by what he said they mean... What if he's wrong? Can he actually be wrong? And why on Earth did he make the 5 of Swords and 5 of Wands so damn similar!!!!?? }) Its bit confusing...
Liliana: You've got a good point, and I actually asked myself why should I ask why, when I wrote this thread.. I don't know why I should ask why... I just wanna know. Although I will never use the history or origins of Tarot when I study the cards themselves or do readings, and although the history of Tarot will not affect the way I read the cards, I still wanna know... Its a whole new section of Tarot just ripe for studying and questioning... It really interests me to see how Tarot began and evolved to what we have today... It kinda puts me in awe of it all actually! :D Tarot's GREAT
Catlin: There is alot of theory about Tarot having some of its origins in India, although I'm not up to scratch on that theory at all, so somebody else could probably talk about it better than me. Hey, that would be a cool thread: All the Tarot History theories discussed!
Kiama
I was recommended a book 'The Tarot: History, Mystery and Lore' by Cynthia Giles. I haven't finished reading it yet, but it seems to give quite a balanced account of different theories. I say 'seems to' as having read about the fist fights I have a vision of someone jumping up and down and screaming 'that's a ***** useless book you silly woman'.
What I particularly like is the way it gives references to its sources and other books. It also has an interesting account of all the Golden Dawn infighting e.g. W.B.Yeats on Crowley:
'I have had a bad time of it lately. I told you I was putting McGregor out of the Kabbala. Well last week he sent a mad person - whom we had refused to initiate - to take possession of the rooms and papers of the Society'
('mad person' = Crowley)
Aerin
Hi Aerin,
I am also reading the Giles book you mentioned. I think it is pretty interesting and I nearly laughed myself silly at the quote referring to the "mad person".
I wish I had met Crowley.
Kiama really posts two questions about the pips here. On the one hand, there is:
'How could anybody get meanings from them? Did they just sit down one day and randomly associate certain words and life events with certain cards?'
To any one working with numerals and their various correlations and manifestations in Nature and thought, the meanings are certainly not random - though two different people can focus on different aspects of those numerals. Also, as each of those numbers becomes understood through the colourings of the element, the 'meaning' becomes even more defined. One only has to look at, for example, Cornelius Agrippa to see that numbers can certainly acquire shades of esoteric meaning, which the reader could therefore quite easily apply in other fields.
Also, if you consider the I Ching, it is certainly easy to see how certain 'simple' patterns can acquire meaning outside of pictorial representation.
The second question, which seeks to address who may first have given meaning to pips is, I think, more difficult to properly answer, and any historically supported answer will need to have some kind of documentary evidence.
The proposal of linking the pips with either ancient Indian or, through the appelation as 'naipes' to Arabic sources still does not tell us, even assuming such 'correctness', why and how this was done - unless one invokes an answer similar to the first question mentioned above.
I too would be interested in reading other answers.
isthmus nekoi
10-06-2002, 10:55
I agree w/jmd about associations w/numbers. While they are partially culturally bound, I find there are also universal associations...
For example, in Cantonese (Chinese dialect), 4 is unlucky b/c it sounds like the word for death. This relates to Western notions of 4 meaning completion, rest etc.
Of course there are differences, but even looking at stuff as seemingly disparate as fairy tales, alchemy, or religion through different cultures/times, you'll begin to find common threads...
A nice article I always keep w/me is in the 2002 Llewyn (sp!) tarot calendar which details the associations we have w/numbers. I've forgotten the author, but if anyone's interested, I'll go find the name. Also, pls pm me as I don't have the time to frequent aeclectic as much as i used to :(
catboxer
11-06-2002, 08:18
Kiama:
That's an intelligent question, and in the final analysis I think it can only be partially answered.
Your observation that the suited cards originally had no intrinsic meanings is right on, since, besides their not containing any obviously symbolic pictures as the trumps do, they are not in any way peculiar to the tarot deck. Playing cards using those suit signs had been around in Europe for at least 50 years before the invention of the tarocchi deck.
So meanings assigned to the suited cards would have originated when people first started using the deck for divination, and nobody knows exactly when that was, although it was probably some time in the 18th century. The very earliest record we have of people using the cards that way comes from the memoirs of Giacomo Casanova. In 1765, when he was in Russia, he kept a teen aged mistress who was a card reader, and he tells how he returned to his apartment after a night of debauchery, and she greeted him with tears and anger. She had laid out 25 cards in which she claimed to be able to see everything he had done. The number of cards she employed tells us that she was using either a) a full tarot deck, or b) a deck of playing cards.
The first published system of interpretation of suited cards was indeed by Etteilla, in 1770, but his first book was designed for use with a French piquet deck. This is a 32-card deck of regular playing cards from which the pips two through six have been removed from each suit. It's similar to a contemporary 40-card Mexican deck I have from which the sevens, eights, and nines have been removed. Starting in 1781, Etteilla published systems of divination for the tarot deck.
As for the pips of the antique decks being ugly, I'll just say that some of us prefer those decks. Setting aside that Italian oddity, the Sola-Busca deck, illustrated minors are a twentieth-century innovation, or in other words, not traditional. Also, there are nearly as many ways of interpreting suited cards as there are decks.
Just one more thing: why people still argue about the origins of tarot is a mystery to me. Tarot was an Italian invention, and all the 15th-century references to it are Italian. It spread to France and Switzerland in the 16th century as a result of regional warfare. All the pertinent primary documents have been published by Stuart Kaplan in his Encyclopedias, and have been available for some time.
(catboxer)
Starfish
11-06-2002, 09:01
Wow - what a great informative post. Thank you!
Starfish (not the original poster but wondered this ? just the same)
Another question: Were Ettiela's meanings for the Minors in any way according to the numerology system that JMD and Isthmus Nekoi suggested?
Kiama
No. The Eteilla keywords and those which have appeared on this Forum seem distinct.
Etteilla's minor meanings appear to have been independent of a clear system linking a key-word for a number and relating it to the suit. What was clear is that the words he used for the upright and reversed meanings were clearly conceptually connected (though at times, one needs to think of the connotations of the words in the French language to see how).
The copy of the deck I have, by the way, has Alliette's 'key words' printed thereon.
Also remember that, despite claims to the contrary by its author should he be living now, the Etteilla deck is not truly a Tarot, but rather a similar deck which arose from seeking to understand the Tarot. Many cards have been changed, and the whole deck is sequentially numbered from one to 78 (interestingly, this last card has two numbers upon it: 0 and 78, and is illustrated with a very similar representation to the Fool - possibly the first instance of having zero upon this card).
Originally posted by jmd
No. The Eteilla keywords and those which have appeared on this Forum seem distinct.
Etteilla's minor meanings appear to have been independent of a clear system linking a key-word for a number and relating it to the suit. What was clear is that the words he used for the upright and reversed meanings were clearly conceptually connected (though at times, one needs to think of the connotations of the words in the French language to see how).
Its early morning, so I'm pretty fuzzled... Does this mean that say, a French word which sounded like say, 2 of Diamonds, in French ended up being conceptually linked to teh meaning for that 2 of Diamonds?
Kiama
Rusty Neon
11-07-2004, 23:37
Originally posted by catboxer
So meanings assigned to the suited cards would have originated when people first started using the deck for divination, and nobody knows exactly when that was, although it was probably some time in the 18th century. The very earliest record we have of people using the cards that way comes from the memoirs of Giacomo Casanova. In 1765, when he was in Russia, he kept a teen aged mistress who was a card reader, and he tells how he returned to his apartment after a night of debauchery, and she greeted him with tears and anger. She had laid out 25 cards in which she claimed to be able to see everything he had done. The number of cards she employed tells us that she was using either a) a full tarot deck, or b) a deck of playing cards.
The first published system of interpretation of suited cards was indeed by Etteilla, in 1770, but his first book was designed for use with a French piquet deck. This is a 32-card deck of regular playing cards from which the pips two through six have been removed from each suit. It's similar to a contemporary 40-card Mexican deck I have from which the sevens, eights, and nines have been removed. Starting in 1781, Etteilla published systems of divination for the tarot deck.
I have three questions arising.
(1) Is there any evidence of tarot cards being used for fortune-telling before Etteilla's published systems of divination for the tarot deck?
(2) If so, is there any written record of divinatory meanings assigned to the suited cards of the tarot deck before Etteilla's published systems of divination for the tarot deck?
(3) Catboxer refers in his/her post to a 25-card reading. I was wondering how this could suggest a full tarot deck rather than a deck of playing cards.
Thanks.
There are only 22 Major Arcana cards in the Tarot deck, so a 25 card reading must use additional cards--possibly the court cards, or some minors.
Divination by numerology dates back to Pythagorus in Classical Greece, predating the Kabala; systems of correspondences for the numbers 1--9 could have been applied to the playing cards/minor arcana cards for fortune telling before the Golden Dawn assigned meanings for magickal development.
The Golden Dawn's system birthed at least three different decks of cards: The Waite/Smith, Crowley's Thoth, and the Golden Dawn's own esoteric deck.
Chart of Characteristics
of Numbers
1
unity, creation, independence
2
duality, emergence
3
power, generative force
4
solidity, dullness
5 (2, the female number + 3, the male number)
sensuality, pleasure
6
perfection, harmony, balance
7
mysticism, psychic, magic
8
material, success, justice
9
spiritual, mental achievement
........................................................................................
The Number Chart
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Number 1:
There is a beginning to every story. Therefore, within the number one we have many qualities that embrace LEADERSHIP and courage such as:
independence
adventure
initiative
originality
determination
individuality
direction
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Number 2:
Then light was shinned upon the subject. The vibration of two is the 'light bearer'. It's core intention is balance and PEACEMAKING, creating friendship wherever it goes. It holds such qualities as:
diplomacy
mediation
caution
kindness
sensitivity
cooperation
emotion
feeling
intuition
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Number 3:
The subject began to express with great creativity. Behold the joy of living with EXPRESSION in its many forms. The principles of the number three are:
enthusiasm
inspiration
imagination
words
vision
optimism
pleasure
creativity
ease
happiness
animation
artistic
cordial
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Number 4:
Now that we have creation let us put it into FORM and order. With practicality and determination we can create order and serve. Great achievements have been accomplished from the qualities of the four, which include:
concentration
management
application
conservation
dedication
efficiency
organization
follow-through
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Number 5:
Now that we have accomplished, let us allow FREEDOM to prevail so that we may progress and create new enterprises. With the energy behind the five, we promote new ideas and undertakings. Rewards are to be realized through such qualities as:
expansiveness
invention
promotion
variety
adventure
flexibility
movement
change
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Number 6:
Without others to love, serve, and cherish all is without purpose. Therefore, the six vibration brings with it the RESPONSIBILITY to restore humanity and remind all of us of the treasures within life. As six energy moves about in the world it embraces qualities such as:
beauty
creativity
domesticity
healing
morality
passion
harmony
trust
serving
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Number 7:
Now that I have learned how to give of myself, who and what am I really? I must have INDIVIDUALITY. Therefore, the quest for wisdom and knowledge begins. Eager to make sense of it all, the qualities of the seven are
analysis
research
calculation
understanding
perfection
the unseen
intuition
investigation
reason
vision
solitude
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Number 8:
Now that I have discovered Heaven, how do I bring it to earth? There is power behind MANIFESTATION and I want to do what it takes to attain what I want. The eight becomes very busy managing and supervising with its sense of judgment. Behind the vibration of the eight is:
power
authority
capability
organization
efficiency
skill
hard work
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Number 9:
Having universal wisdom, I embrace the principles of forgiveness and COMPASSION. The nine holds the vibration of universal love. It teaches us how to accept each other. By having such a vast overview, the nine becomes a bridge to many qualities like:
creativity
imagination
benevolence
impersonality
intuition
philanthropy
emotion
generosity
devotion
dedication
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Number 11:
Let us create ILLUMINATION of all that is before us. There is a path beyond what we know today. The eleven lives in two worlds. On practical days, it vibrates with the two. On days that it senses it’s full nature, it is of an energy that translates a world beyond. Therefore, the eleven energy is:
aware
six-sensed
creative
discerning
dreamy
inspiring
intense
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Number 22:
Let us build upon a foundation of precision and balance and we will have a master plan. On a practical day, the twenty-two becomes the four. When it senses its full capacity as a MASTER BUILDER, it can achieve what is barely imaginable. The qualities the twenty-two embraces are:
mastery of vast co-creative projects
great achievement
ingenuity
high energy
innovation
idealism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you become familiar with the principles behind the numbers, you can add to the list. Remember that each vibration can be expressed as balanced, under-balanced, or over-balanced. Here is one example for the three vibration:
Balanced = Expressive
Under-balanced = Shy
Over Balanced = Boastful
Ross G Caldwell
12-07-2004, 10:02
Originally posted by Rusty Neon
I have three questions arising.
(1) Is there any evidence of tarot cards being used for fortune-telling before Etteilla's published systems of divination for the tarot deck?
(2) If so, is there any written record of divinatory meanings assigned to the suited cards of the tarot deck before Etteilla's published systems of divination for the tarot deck?
(3) Catboxer refers in his/her post to a 25-card reading. I was wondering how this could suggest a full tarot deck rather than a deck of playing cards.
Thanks.
For (1), the earliest evidence is from the first edition of Merlini Coccai (nom-de-plume of Teofilo Folengo, an itinerant friar) "Caos del Triperuno" (1526). An account is given in Kaplan II, 8-9.
Kaplan gives the date of the 1527 edition, but I have seen this edition and the passage dealing with the card reading is missing. Cordié's edition of the "Opere di Teofilo Folengo" (Milano & Napoli, Riccardo Ricciardi, 1977) says that it reappears in the 1546 edition. The fact that one of the readings criticizes the current Pope might have something to do with the lacuna in the 1527 edition.
Folengo uses only the trumps, and deals them to four people, 5-6-5-6. He then tells their "fate" in the form of a sonnet. Kaplans's translations will give you an idea.
(2) Franco Pratesi discovered a page in Bologna with one-word divinatory meanings assigned to some cards in the tarocchi pack. He assigned the sheet to around 1750 (IIRC). Dummet et. al. published this in "Wicked Pack of Cards" (I believe), but I don't have the book to check. Would someone with the book please post them?
(3) I can't help you with this one.
lionette
12-07-2004, 11:56
PaganX: I'm curious, where did your numbers chart originate? Have you gathered this from several sources? Does this harken back to Pythagorus? Please elaborate as I'm just beginning a study of number associations to tarot.
The divinatory one-word meanings discovered by Patresi, and first published in a paper titled 'Italian Cards: New Discoveries. no 9' in The Playing Card vol XVII, 1989, pp136-45 (according to Dummett & al's note on p 269 of their A Wicked Pack of Cards) are the following (it should be noted that the authors of the book state (p50) that the 'nomenclature dates the document to before 1750'): Angel - wedding and settlement
World - long journey
Sun - day
Moon - night
Star - gift
Devil - anger
Death - death
Traitor (Hanged Man) - betrayal
Old Man (hermit) - an old man
Force - violence
Temperance - time
Chariot - journey
Love - love
[i]Bagattino - married man
Matto - madness...then also follows meanings for some court cards and the Ace and/or ten of each suit (Cf p 49).
Rusty Neon
13-07-2004, 07:27
Thanks, Ross and jmd, for the historical information.
jmd ... Could you please give us the mentioned Patresi-discovered divinatory meanings for those particular courts, Aces and Tens? It would be interesting to compare them for any similarities to Etteilla School DMs.
The other listed cards are: King of Swords - evil tongue
10 Swords - tears
Ace of Swords - letter
King of Batons - an unmarried gentleman
Queen of Batons - harlot [note this 'couple' compared to the next set of King/Queen]
Knight of Batons - door-knocker
Fante of Batons - thought of the lady
Ace of Batons - annoyances
King of Cups - an old man [same stated meaning as the Hermit card]
Queen of Cups - married lady
Knight of Cups - settlement
Fantesca of Cups - the lady
10 Cups - roof tiles
Ace of Cups - the house
King of Coins - the man
Queen of Coins - truth
Knight of Coins - thought of the man
Fantesca of Coins - young lady
10 Coins - money
Ace of Coins - table...I trust this helps further reflections and research :)
Rusty Neon
13-07-2004, 07:57
Very much appreciated. Thanks, jmd.
Page of Simon Wintle:
http://wopc.co.uk/uk/margary/lenthall.html
Fortune telling cards from 1690. Simon Wintle thinks, they are the oldest fortune telling cards.
----
John Meador in post 558 in the Yahoo-group LTarot (27th September 2003) reported about a German production of Book with Playing cards between 1506 - 1520, which fulfills somehow (in a low quality system) the definition of "divination with cards"). The base is the German playing card deck of the time with 48 cards.
Message 558 of 1252
From: "drdee00726" <drdee007@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat Sep 27, 2003 1:53 am
Subject: losbuch
"In einer vermutlich zu Nurnberg verfassten bearbeitung, die uns in einem Strassburger abdrucke Matthias Schurers (zwischen 1506 und 1520) vorliegt, ist das tierlosbuch 0 in ein kartenlosbuch) umgewandelt, indem die achtzeiligen spruche mit den notigen veranderungen den 48 karten eines deutschen kartenspieles in den Mund gelegt werden. " etc..
In the same message from John a second losbuch 8also related to a playing card deck) is noted as from 1543 and from an author with the name Cammerlander in cooperation with a second author named Jacob Vielfeld.
"Der aus Mainz geburtige Strassburger drucker Jacob Cammerlander veroffentlichte 1543 ein eigenartiges Kartenlosbuch), als dessen
verfasser wohl sein genosse Jacob Vielfeld anzusehen ist). Wie in M.
Schurers kartenlosbuch finden wir auf bl. iiij a eine scheibe mit den
vier farben (hertz, laub, eychel, schel) und deren zwolf karten
(kunig, fraw, oberbub, underbub, neun his zwei), die einen zeiger in
gestalt eines einhorns (wie bei Wickram) enthielt; und das vorwort
mahnt (bl. iij b):" etc.
The style of the described deck seems to have been rather similar to the Boiardo Tarocchi deck, that is, there had been a picture with poem for each card.
compare:
http://trionfi.com/0/h/
http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/boiardo/
Similar is also the deck of Johann Bussemecher (Cologne):
http://trionfi.com/0/j/d/bussemacher/index.html
, probably also others. The combination of text and picture (on playing cards) was in the course of time common, not unusual. Combinations of text and grafique are frequent in art history. Using them for a divinatory system is not very far. Using as media playing cards - why not.
Michael Hurst has composed an overview about early cartomancy:
http://www.geocities.com/cartedatrionfi/Fragments/Cartomancy.html
Ross G Caldwell
14-07-2004, 03:13
Originally posted by jmd
The other listed cards are: King of Swords - evil tongue
10 Swords - tears
Ace of Swords - letter
...I trust this helps further reflections and research :)
Thanks Jean-Michel. I've been looking for those for a while. My first impression is that they are meanings for a specific query, rather than generic meanings of the cards.
Ross
Seed Crystal
18-10-2004, 19:59
This is fascinating. I realize this is a Historical Research thread, but ... I started reading playing cards as a child (sometime before the age of 9). I used the Aces and court cards and repeating patterns in a layout somewhat like major arcana, and used my own system of numerology for the pips and single references. Suits were work, light emotions, money, dark emotions... I must have seen SOMETHING because I used a 8 or 10 card cross layout similar to Celtic Cross, but as I recall I was pretty sheltered/culturally isolated and did not see any Tarot images or anything on the occult until I was a teenager; I recall 78 cards and archetype images as being a pleasant surprise, it made everything easier. I did read a LOT of mythology and fairy tales (Greek, Roman, European, Chinese, Native American). Learning Tarot was easy; "my" numerology fit.
Now I am thinking about what I absorbed from where... and whether some universal unconsciousness or the subtle perceptional influences of culture was more an influence. Just interesting. :)
My apologies if this was too personal for this thread.
Personally speaking, I do not think your post is too personal for this thread.
Indeed, the way things often become uncovered is through a progressive discovery and 'invention' by individuals.
There is something that to me seems more like intrinsic qualities in the various numbers. For example, unity and one. Of duality, opposition and two.
Some of the higher numbers do not at first appear as clearly as these, but again it seems to me that often there comes to be some agreement precisely because of some of the basic intrinsic discoveries that may be made as numbers are investigated as numbers and as patterns.
Investigating, for example, five, inevitably leads, at some stage, to quite active reflections, to the pentagramme, and to, therefore, also Phi and golden proportions.
Six leads inevitably to a sense for harmony as one draws a hexagramme.
Some numbers also seem to lead to reflections as we connect them to common accurances in worldly bodies - whether it be four and stability (whether reflecting on human constructs such as tables or cars, or the animal realm), or the incredible unfoldment that occurs in five-petalled roses or the asymmetry exemplified in the lotus.
It is to these reflections that, ultimately, it seems that pip meaning derives - and of course, the early reflections arise very much from the playfulness of using numbers as depicted, for example, on cards.
Originally posted by jmd
Also remember that, despite claims to the contrary by its author should he be living now, the Etteilla deck is not truly a Tarot, but rather a similar deck which arose from seeking to understand the Tarot. Many cards have been changed, and the whole deck is sequentially numbered from one to 78 (interestingly, this last card has two numbers upon it: 0 and 78, and is illustrated with a very similar representation to the Fool - possibly the first instance of having zero upon this card).
It has 40 'pips', 16 court cards, 22 emblematic figures. Why isn't it a tarot? An idiocentric, occultists redaction admittedly, but why is it less a tarot than say Waite/Smith or Crowley/Harris? How do we define what is and what isn't a tarot?
I believe the Fool is also numbered zero in the equally idiosyncratic Sola Busca. The earliest reference to the Fool being numbered Zero that I am aware of is in the late fifteenth century Steele sermon.
Kwaw
Originally posted by kwaw
The earliest reference to the Fool being numbered Zero that I am aware of is in the late fifteenth century Steele sermon.
Kwaw
In the sermon as well as being referenced as '0' it is called 'nulla'.
In arithmetic there are two 'nulla', one and zero. Zero is a 'nulla' in operations of addition and subtraction, one is a 'nulla' in operations of multiplication and division.
The combination of 'zero' and 'nulla' may imply the operation of addition, and the sum of the numbers 1-21+0=231 [as in the 231 gates of the SY].
Kwaw
It would be useful for me to have another look at the referenced versions of the Steele sermon... and so here reply as to my thoughts on the matter, which I will need to temper with later reflections.
Though the Steele sermon certainly orders the appelations, and appears to number them, there is some reason to assume that perhaps some may be inaccurate. After all, the sermon was not written in support, but rather against card play. Still, one would assume that the author did as much as possible to present the sequence with some knowledge or he may otherwise have been taken as an ignoramus with regards to that which he sought to diminish.
The positioning of the Fool is therein clearly lastly listed. That it is called 'nulla' does not indicate a numbering of zero, but of a value that adds no score in counting. Depending on the actual text, it may also indicate that 'nothing comes after' - here indicating that it is the final of the sequence, but with no numerical value (perhaps, as you and I also suggest, due to a desired totalling of 231 when the twenty-two cards' values are added).
With regards to your earlier questions, neither the Sola Busca nor the Etteilla depict the important symbolism of the Atouts of the Tarot - hence my statement that neither of these are 'truely' Tarot. They certainly each seem to have some connection - and in the case of the Etteilla, a clear historical connection.
In contradistinction, both the Waite/Colman-Smith and the Crowley/Harris, despite inversions of cards, addition of the actual numbering of the Fool, or picturesque pips, seek to emulate in various ways the central qualities of Tarot.
Originally posted by jmd
Though the Steele sermon certainly orders the appelations, and appears to number them, there is some reason to assume that perhaps some may be inaccurate. After all, the sermon was not written in support, but rather against card play. Still, one would assume that the author did as much as possible to present the sequence with some knowledge or he may otherwise have been taken as an ignoramus with regards to that which he sought to diminish.
Though it is listed last in the sequence, it is unambiguously numbered zero in the online transcription. I believe, from what I have read on this list and elsewhere, Kaplan has said it is numbered 22, however part of the relevant fool section in his reproduction of the sermon is illegible . I wonder if, the actual number in his copy of the sermon being illegible, he has made the error of assuming the number 22 because of its position in the list. As to the Sermone being inaccurate, why do you say that? I don't recall anyone ever mentioning that it was inaccurate when they believed [probably with Kaplan as source] that the fool was numbered 22 in the sermone, why does it suddenly become inaccurate when it appears that Kaplan [i]may have made an error and it is in actual fact numbered zero? may because it may not be Kaplan that has made an error, but the other sources I have referenced elsewhere].
Kwaw
My second sentence (which you quote) explains why the order may be inaccurate, and likewise why it may be so. This is not in fact an argument against it being twenty-second (which the sermon clearly shows), but rather that any part or parts may have been written in such a manner that may also have inaccuracies - though the listing suggests that the author sought to carefully follow what was probably around, including the Fou having no value.
Cerulean
01-11-2004, 14:32
Some standard, modern meanings for playing cards include:
Hearts (Cups):
Ace: love, friendship, the home and distinct happiness
King: fair haired man, affectionate, generous, impetuous, honest man, hasty in decisions, not to be relied upon for advice
Queen: fair haired woman, trustworthy, faithful loving woman, gentle & pleasing
Jack: fair haired young person, good friend, a close (or long lost) friend
10: good fortune, happiness, good news, happiness in family
9: the 'wish card', dreams and desires will come true
8: invitations, but also partings, parties or celebrations
7: someone is unreliable, broken promises by friends
6: unexpected good fortune, generosity, imposed upon by untrustworthy people
5: jealousy, inability to make a decision
4: changes, travel or postponements, marriage delayed, bachelor or spinster
3: be cautious an impulsive decision threatens good ones
2: success by careful thought, friendship
Spades (Swords):
Ace: conflicts, a difficult love affair, misfortune, bad news, tidings of death
King: dark haired man, ambitious, usually successful, his ambition overrides everything else
Queen: dark haired woman, seductive or unscrupulous, treachery, betrayal, malice, widow
Jack: dark haired young man, well meaning but lazy person, hindrance in all work
10: worry, grief, imprisonment, negation of all good
9: bad luck, can mean delays or quarrels, all kinds of unhappiness in all things
8: disappointments and opposition, be cautious, friends might turn out to be rivals
7: a warning against loss of friendship, quarrels with friends, bad things
6: an improvement in the person's life, use perseverance to make your plans work
5: anxiety, setbacks, interferences, success in business, harmony in partners
4: jealousy, business troubles, sickness, minor misfortunes delay project
3: partings due to faithlessness, lourney, bad things in love or marriage
2: scandal, gossip, danger of deceit, change, removal, loss of home, division
Diamonds (Coins):
Ace: money, a ring, important message, or a valuable gift
King: fair haired man, stubborn and powerful, vengeful, dangerous when crossed.
Queen: fair haired woman, flirt, sophisticated, witty, interferes in other's affairs
Jack: a relative, someone not really reliable, selfish or jealous, bad news
10: journey, changes usually bringing wealth, money as objective, maybe not result
9: opportunities and surprises, usually financial, taste for adventure, travel, changes
8: late marriage or new relationship, unexpected money, a journey
7: a gift, lies, rumours, unlucky gambler, criticism
6: a reconciliation, warning against a second marriage, early marriage; early end.
5: successful meetings, especially business, unexpected news; may be business success
4: an inheritance, changes for the better, unhappiness from bad friends, betrayal
3: legal or domestic battles, quarrels, domestic disagreements
2: a great love affair increases in importance, opposed by friends
Clubs (Wands):
Ace: harmony, property, achievements, love, peace of mind, professional success
King: dark haired man, honest, open, generous and faithful
Queen: dark haired woman, strong, helpful, attractive, nice woman, inclined to be temperamental
Jack: a reliable friend, sincere but impatient
10: unexpected money, good luck or a gift, unexpected good fortune with bad loss
9: a new romance, disputes with friends, bad quarrels
8: opposition, chance of recklessness, someone will use money not his own
7: prosperity, chance of romantic interference, good fortune, beware of opposite sex
6: business success, profitable business in partnership
5: help from a friend or spouse, marriage with a wealthy woman
4: bad change of fortune, failure of project due to friends
3: good marriage or partnership, long engagement, and then a fast wedding
2: disappointment and opposition from friends or associates
If I look at JMD's post of meanings taken from the P. circa 1750 historical document, I can see 'related' meanings in modern playing card cartomancy.
Even in the 10 of cups, knowing the expense of new roof tiles in the modern day and how it takes wealth to have a snug one to safeguard food, clothing and possessions--I can divine a related meaning of family and home prosperity both in playing cards and tarot! And I have seen the meanings of a 'fair woman or kindly, gentle and pleasing' in playing cards for the Queen of Hearts and some suggested meanings for tarot's Queen of Cups when one checks out old-fashioned resources.
I am thinking there is a link to playing card cartomancy, but I don't know how far back that goes...I hope this is pertinent, as playing cards have been mentioned as well.
Regards,
Cerulean
The cartomantic meanings go at least back to Eteilla - his Tarot cartomantic work, as many here are already aware, appears to be an extension from his non-tarot cartomantic tomes.
If there is a (written) earlier connection, I am not aware of it at the time of this posting.