Tarot and Numerology

I recently discovered a kind of "training course" in numerology and going through the meanings for each number, they don't seem to add up to the same kind of numerlological meaning that I've picked up through my Marseilles-studies.
Now, it's been a while since I looked through the numerical meanings so I might be a little rusty around the memorybanks..

Anyway, my question.
Is there a difference between general numerology and numerology in tarot?

The 0 is excluded from the general numerology, though 11 and 22 are still left in there as a sort of "supreme numbers". Thereby there is a link of sorts, but with some bits left out.
I also miss the 0 with its promise and open quality.

I've only just started reading up on this so there's bound to be lots I've not discovered yet and that I will find out more about, though I can't quite keep from adding this thread to the forum to see if someone else might share this discovery, or have some light to shed on the issue.

Here another beginner in numerology!

Eco74 said:

Is there a difference between general numerology and numerology in tarot?

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I'm sure there are people who can give you a better and more detailed answer, but here is my take.

What I have deduced of my few readings on this subject is that all numerology takes as starting point the idea that the numbers have a certain power because they vibrate with a kind of energy. In this asumption it is an art very close to astrology. It's also said that numbers are the hidden patern is everything, but lets focus in the vibrating energy theory. The way in how the different numerology trends develop this idea and which numbers they choose in their study vary from one to other, but all agree in the idea of the power of numbers.

Then is up to the numerologist to determine how the numbers behave in the different contexts (i.e. tarot). This explains the different values of the numbers in the birth date, in the name and so on.

In this fashion, some numerologists and numerology traditions consider the 0 as an important number and others don't. This also happens with the number 10.

I think you may like to have a look to this tread http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=44063 and to the note on the divination forum where some numbers are discussed.

I hope this helps.

Different systems, different approaches

Tarot, Numerology and Astrology all include "numbers" but a number's meaning in one system is not alway coincidental with the meaning in another system. The three systems, as well as other systems, have different strengths and weaknesses as well as different uses and applications.

Consider the "two" in Astrology. Dividing the zodiac by two gives us an aspect called the opposition -- partnership, conflict, balance needed, etc. In Numerology the "two" tends to focus more on awareness, "not-self" or perspective. In Tarot, "twoness" has struggle, decision, force applied thru some form of action (emotions, ideas, movement,etc.). We can construct a broad umbrella of common meaning but once we move to the specifics differences begin to become clear.

My sense is that we can only go so far in treating systems as having common components and that we have to maintain a clear idea of their differences. Dave

A Zero = ONE Zero

Eco74 said:

Anyway, my question. Is there a difference between general numerology and numerology in tarot?

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Many (most) books on Numerology are really brain candy,
there isn't any way to put all the amazing fun to work...
Lucky numbers, lucky everything, lucky amazing fun-fun.

*

In Tarot Numbers:

Zero is actually the same as One, which is also Ten.
Why? It's not about "quantity" but about QUALITY.
And so it goes through the 9 numbers: they vibrate.

While numbers in numerology and astrology can certainly be said to have intrinsic meanings which are particular to those disciplines, I think the same cannot be said of tarot, or at least not to the same degree.

Assigning divinatory meanings based on the cards' numbers is a relatively recent practice, which began, I believe, when the Golden Dawn correlated the numbers of the numbered Minor Arcana with Qabalistic Tree of Life numbers as one of several systems which they used simultaneously to assign meanings to the cards. Before then, divinatory meanings were arrived at based on cartomancy-derived fortune-telling meanings which didn't necessarily have any relation to the numbers on the cards.

Thus, in my opinion, assigning meanings to the cards based on number is an arbitrary process. One is perfectly free to use Qabala-based meanings (as is the current fashion), or numerology-derived meanings, or astrology-derived meanings. There isn't a "rule" on how to do it in tarot. There is only a generalized sort of tradition to use Qabala-derived meanings for the numbers, which, again in my opinion, carries less weight in tarot than the meanings used in numerology or astrology carry in their own disciplines, because the traditions in those disciplines are much older.

-- Lee

Lots of great answers already. Thankyou all!

Yes, it is a different system..
So I guess I'll either go ahead and learn a separate one or incorporate it with the marseille-numbers.

Things to think about indeed.
Better to have a clear strategy about it from the start though than to learn, waver, doubt and then relearn.. Way to timeconsuming for my taste.


TrueStar - Thankyou for the link. Some interesting reading there too.

Fulgour - I've read books on numerology before and always did feel they were more brain-candy than seriously written. Though this recent thing I stumbled on seemed more substantial. I'll see how it holds up as I go along..

Dadsnook and Lee - You both have good points. Mustn't lock the mind up to a certain way of thinking so soon.. I'll take a light stance on it and see where it takes me.

Eco74 said:

So I guess I'll either go ahead and learn a separate one or incorporate it with the marseille-numbers.

Better to have a clear strategy about it from the start though than to learn, waver, doubt and then relearn.. Way to timeconsuming for my taste.

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If you are only interested in numerology in relation with tarot (marseilles) and not in numerology itself then it would be easier for you to pick up a book which relates the marseilles to numerology meanings. The ones I know are the following:

- Paul Marteau's 'Le Tarot De Marseille' (1949). It relies heavily on numerology, flower ornament and traditional meaning. I haven't read this book fully yet, only looked for the meaning of particular cards, but looks like there is no kabbalah arround. Its very serious and detailed on his description of each of the 78 cards.

- Papus' 'Le Tarot Des Bohemiens' (1889). He relied very much on Eliphas Levi's works, and so they are kabbalistic based. But he also held numerology in great esteem (he also wrote a book devoted only to numerology, 'La Science Des Nombres' (1934)) and the 'TDB' has many numerological explanations. Although there is much more on mayors than on pips.

- Alejandro Jodorowsky's 'La via del tarot'/'La voie du tarot' (2004). Also relies, among other sources, on numerology.

- Emilio Salas' 'El gran libro del tarot' (2001). A book only in spanish that I have found very useful for the marseilles. The set of meanings is deduced from a mixture of kabbalah, astrology and numrelogy. He devotes an entire chapter to numerology (12 pages), and later, when explaining the set of meanings, he refers again to numerology.

- John Opsopaus' 'The Pythagorean Tarot' (2001). I don't have this one yet, but I plan to Looks like a very serious 470 page book where the author builds up a new tarot based in greek paganism and pythagorean numerology.

Fulgour said:

Many (most) books on Numerology are really brain candy

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I think that what happens with numerology is that there are much less books on the market, therefore a fewer amount of serious ones. Plus numerology doesn't looks that mystical and esoterical as tarot and astrology do; it's a more simple and straightforward discipline that has been in the bottom of many other divinatory arts, but hasn't been object of much serious study itself.

Like many other people I used to think that numerology was a fairly superficial discipline - something that you could learn in an afternoon. Then an acquaintance of mine (who is a practising intuitive numerologist) went on a numerology course which, I seem to remember, took place over a period of three weeks. It was incredibly intensive and the subject was covered from its earliest beginnings in ancient Greece up to the present day, with all the ramifications into Kabbalah etc. She was fairly shell-shocked by the end. But, as you say, there aren't that many serious books about it and material such as she was learning is not, I think, to be found in any book.

As far as tarot is concerned, I picked up a book recently called "The system of symbols: a new way to look at tarot" by Toni Allen. It's interesting because she equates the numbers with Vedic numerology which is quite different from the system we know in the West.

There's also the business of whether you separate the major arcana into two or three groups, because that makes a difference in how the cards relate to each other in terms of their numbers. I think much of it rests with the reader of the cards - whichever system you use, you'll get the right answers if you do it intuitively.

Netzach

Wow, some great tips there. Thankyou TrueStar!

It seems I'll have to get back on my french-studies for most of them though. But I have been hoping for motivation to strike, and why not in the numerological sense. *s*

I'll definately check these out and see which I have an actual chance of getting my hands on, preferrably within a not too huge timeframe.
*saves book-titles and authors to books-to-investigate-list*


Edited to add:

I'll be adding that book by Toni Allen to the list aswell.
Thankyou for the tip Netzach!

I do tend to mostly go with the intuitive approach, but also feel that I need to get a little more aquainted with the numbers before I feel confident enough to include them in my readings on a more than "touch-base-level".

TrueStar said:

John Opsopaus' 'The Pythagorean Tarot' (2001). I don't have this one yet, but I plan to Looks like a very serious 470 page book where the author builds up a new tarot based in greek paganism and pythagorean numerology.

Click to expand...

Mr. Opsopaus is an elaborate fraud... trying to find anything
in his book is pointless. Numbers? nah. It's about dice games.