Revelations Tarot--Reversal vs. Upright

[Thirteen]

I'm finding some of the reversals interesting and wanted to chat a bit about them. Generally, reversals in tarot are the energy of the card "blocked"--but Wong has his own twist here. In some cases, the reversals are, indeed, the reverse. If the card has a positive meaning, the reverse is negative. If the card has a negative meaning, the reverse is positive--witness Two/pents for example, where upright is: you can juggle and multitask, and reversed is: you can't manage all these things, you can't keep them in the air. Very simple and straightforward reversal of meaning.

HOWEVER, in some of the cards, he seems to have taking the upright meaning and split it. For example, Five/Cups. The usually meaning of this card is that you're crying over spilled milk, focusing on what you've lost. BUT! the upright card also points out that there are two cups still standing and a wise person will focus on those. Typically, a reversal of this card might well indicate that there are no cups standing, that all had been lost (turn over the card and those up-right two cups spill out their contents, yes?).

What Wong has done, however, is split the card. Upright, has the meaning that the person is focused on the spilled cups. Reversed has the meaning that the person, while regretting the loss, has seen that there are two cups standing and is hopeful.

And then there are cards where the reversal isn't reversed. Take the Devil Card where the upright meaning is: a man driven by "material lusts and desires" and the reversed meaning is:a man who cares only for the "fulfillment of his own desires." There's very little difference between these two outside of the upright being more in control. There's certainly not a "reversal" of meaning. This is problematic as the Devil card can have positive meaning. Yet Wang ignores that giving us duo negatives, the reversed just being a worser version of the upright.

And, finally, there is the strange instance of the Page/Cups. What's strange about this card is that it can't be "reversed." the "reversed" or lower image is meant to be viewed from the upright position--as is the upright image.

Understand--I don't have any real problem with Wong playing fast and lose with his reversed meanings. I rather like what he's done. HOWEVER, I can see some objection to the fact that he isn't always consistent with how he presents reversals. They're not always "reversed" meanings--and there's little rhyme or reason as to when they are. Why, after all, is the negative 4/Cups positive when reversed (not taking action vs. taking action), but the 5/Swords isn't (failure and sorrow over failure respectively)?

[GoldenWolf]

I got this deck a few weeks. I ordinarily don't read with reversals and use other methods to determine if a card should be read with a positive/negative meaning. However, I saw some of the cards online, liked the artwork, and thought it might be interesting to experiment with reading reversed with this particular deck. So I looked them over after I bought them, checking for damaged or missing cards. This is usually a pretty cursory process. I immediately noticed that the "reversals" were often just an even more negative view of some of the cards traditionally regarded as negative. Other were outright reversed meanings. As you point out, there is little consistency to this. I thought maybe I was just being resistent to reading reversals (being old and set in my ways lol) so I showed them to my boyfriend who agreed with me.
Basically I put the deck away and haven't done anything with it since. I still think the artwork is well done, but I'd find it hard to ignore the reversals in reading with it. I know if I read for other people at fairs and so on, they are going to ask about it if only because they haven't seen a deck like it before. Maybe I should check out the study group threads. Sometimes other people can shed light on aspects of cards that I haven't seen. I suspect though that I am likely stuck with another "pretty" but useless deck for divination.

[bladeraven]

It does throw one off ALOT when dealing with a very unique deck like this...I think that with a deck like this..it helps to really....not share it with other people just yet......I can see interesting arguments as they are literally going to see the "reverse" of what your seeing and will try to go well then what about that...okay...did I lose everyone on that point yet??

What I've been trying too do when dealing with these reversals is I will read the book....get an overall idea of what it means but have been really relying more on just personal intuition versus whats written......

I think in cases like this....it sometimes help to kinda..conveniently "Lose the book" and try reading without it......

[sunflowr]

I got this deck a few weeks. I ordinarily don't read with reversals and use other methods to determine if a card should be read with a positive/negative meaning.

Can you share what some of your other methods are?

Also... you could just go ahead and treat Revelations as you do any other deck. Just because the deck has reversed art doesnt neccesarily mean one HAS to read it that way. Maybe stick to one of your methods instead. Or use the deck in landscape mode and read the art both ways.

I have the Revelations. I love it. But then again, I'm not very familiar with reversed meanings. I've never done it before. Many are saying the reversed meanings arent quite what they are used to. (?????)

[Flavio]

The intention to use reversals is pretty obvious on this deck, actually I think reversals are the personality of the Revelation (Adflatus) Tarot, but as with many other things related to Tarot reading the people who doesn't want to use reversal is free and entitled to avoid them, even with this deck.

So, what to do then? my first idea is that every card on this deck can be read pretty much like the tricky 5 of Swords from the RWS, for me the intepretation of this card depends on which character relates the querent more (the winner or the loser) querents would decide which part of the card (upside/recerse) shows the situation better.

[psychicbody]

Oh, god the Five of Cups is a pain in the ass to read, as is several other cards! I was not sure if my understanding was flawed, or if he actually was being inconsistant with his reversals.
Now that I know this, I am going to make more of an effort to bring consistancy. I think the reversal should be either "blocked/subdued" or simply the opposite. A better way to do it would be to make the Minor reversals blockages and the Majors opposites. This is because the Minors are typically less profound than the Majors, so any reversal of a Minor will have less of an impact on the card's meaning.

[Flavio]

A better way to do it would be to make the Minor reversals blockages and the Majors opposites. This is because the Minors are typically less profound than the Majors, so any reversal of a Minor will have less of an impact on the card's meaning.
This sounds interesting :) I can see me doing it with the RWS deck, have you tried it before? if so I'd love to read your experiences. Thank you.

[psychicbody]

I usually do stick with the opposite, or use the card's "energy" turned against itself. For example, a Three reversed would be: lack of resources and deconstruction, but it can also mean anarchy; all depending on the suit. In Numerology, Three means "creation" and investment, so that number inverted would be something that causes those things to fall out of your grasp.
It really depends on the spread and where the card falls into position, so I cant say I always use the opposite meanings. For purposes of consistancy, it does seem to make more sense to apply that principle to the majors, more than the minors, if possible.

Mabie I'll read cards for you, sometime, so you can see.

[Flavio]

For purposes of consistancy, it does seem to make more sense to apply that principle to the majors, more than the minors, if possible.

Mabie I'll read cards for you, sometime, so you can see.
Thnak you very much for your quick answer, I understand your point better now. As for the reading that would be lovely! I'll PM you for details. Thank you.

[abarrach]

I like to think of reversals as entirely new cards with their own meaning. Of course, the meaning of a reversed card will have some relationship with meaning of the card in its upright position because they share the same imagery. But just because a card is reversed doesn't require it's meaning to be reversed as well.

I find that this deck makes good use of the realestate on the card to accentuate this concept of two cards in one. Once you think of the reverse as a different card from the upright, you lose this need for a consistent relationship between the two meanings.

A few people have told me that it's more important to honour the deck you are using in a reading that to stick to traditional meanings. This is probably a good place to repeat this advice.

I think in cases like this....it sometimes help to kinda..conveniently "Lose the book" and try reading without it......

Agreed.

[magpie9]

I got this deck recently, and didn't like it much. The "masks" on the faces of the Majors are a real turn-off for me, and the art in general is more curious than beautiful to me. I still don't like it a lot, but it reads beautifully. LOL.

I got it because I don't use reversals, much,(it's a deck-by-deck and spread-by-spread choice, and infrequent at that) and I thought it would be an interesting experience. I cruised the book, and the cards, and disagreed with a lot of his reverse interpretations, but thought I could work well enough with the pix.

I immediately misplaced the book, and couldn't find it for 2 weeks, which I think was a blessing :D since by that time I was using the deck regularly, and reading fluently with it. Now that I've found the book again, there are a (very) few cards I'll look up in it.

I noticed in the reviews I read, the deck was viewed very favorably, but the book was consistantly (but politely) slammed.

[LibraMoon]

hey there.. recently bought the deck and was struck with it from the word go... reading the book that comes with it helps.. but my concern is that what you have learnt with all the other decks, differs and has even completley different meanings - some that are viewed are negative comes acrros as postive.. most confusining but still love it.. lol...

[tieduptinkerbell]

I tend to have the same view as Abarrach for the most part regarding reversals. And I also have some different thoughts about interpreting cards...well maybe not different...but not as cut and dried as some might have.

My view on reading is, that each deck reads a little differently...not all decks read with depth...not all decks are cut and dried. I find that each deck has a personality. Usually the deck brings with it the personality of the creator. SO when we buy a deck...at least when I do...I make sure that I connect with it...with the creator of the deck and with the spirit in which it was created. I don't know about anyone else but I get a vibe off some decks...won't go near them with a ten foot pole. Others I feel mixed about...one I even feel jealous of...lol...ask if you must...

I think that what I like about the Reveleations reversals is that it reads easily for the querent. Example. The other day I was doing a reading for my spouse...about us. It was a good reading, but what I thought was interesting was how involved he became in this particular reading. He usually picks up the cards and looks at them ( I allow some people to do this and yes I have cleansing rituals...) But it was good to get his feedback on what he thought the reversals meant and he seemed to connect to those cards because he could see a reversal...not just an upsidedown image. The discussions that that reading provoked were very very deep and very healing...

And ultimately it is about what the card is saying to the particular person its speaking to...to the person(s) we are reading for. We are here to guide with our insight and general knowlege and understanding of the basic meaning behind each card. But each card will have meaning for each person as they interpret the image and the information.

When I first saw this deck, what I loved about it was the slight off image of the reversal vs. the upright. And going back to reversals...I have always read with reversals and believe personally that the reversals can have meaning all their own...not just something blocked or in the future etc. I think that when we get to know our cards that we begin to see different things in them, for instance, the ace of cups in one deck as compared to the ace of cups in another deck. At least I do. To a degree. I think our own deep intuition about what a reversed card means in a particular reading is what we should stay with...but as I said..with me ...I usually connect with the creator of the cards I read ...so with Wong, I found his reversals refreshing...and thought provoking. I believe there are positives and negitives in each card...or a ying and a yang...there is balance..to everthing if we look for it. Even in the cards that give us what we want...ie the nine of cups...there is a balance that must be maintained...after the nine is always the 10...which means change...a new cycle...and cups are about emotion...so ya...careful what you wish for... There are always balances of each meaning...opposite is such a decidedly staunch and unmovable word...so is blocked...anyway I digress...Wong...yes...what I found was that He embodied the whole card with his uprights and reversals... I don't think He negated that sometimes a reversal is just a blocked upright...or just a timing issue. And because I also encourage a person to look at the upright meaning of a rx card...it makes a lot of sense to me. I think he was trying to show what the counterbalance of a particular direction or nudge might be...what might be if we do nothing...or what could be if we DON'T let something happen...

As for reading the more difficult cards... Wong is an artist...so He is creative...there were bound to be slight nuances that would be almost non visible on the first look at the card. I guess I don't find them difficult to read because as an artist I am looking for the symbolizm in what he has created... Like when I write music...sometimes I purposely use a play on words that a person would have to really think about to get...

So the five of cups...only because someone said they found it hard to read...
It is a 5...it is change...no matter how we look at it...thus the swirly water...upright and rx. There is tons of movement in the card...bubbles...the current against the seaweed. If anyone has ever gone scuba diving, you know that even though to the naked eye the water looks calm, the current under the surface gets stronger the deeper you get. Also...the cups...when upright they show all spilled ... Change always brings with it a new start. It has to...everything cycles. The six of cups is a happy card...and the rx side of this card...the 5 of cups...shows that some cups are still full...and she has accepted the fact she has two left and ready to take her cups and try to move forward(unlike the 4 of cups where we can't accept the cup of possibility...that change may be on the way...or accept the outcome as a positive thing...or that there might be something better) This rx of this 5 shows how we can take our sorrow and heartbreak and start again...something I am learning right now...God do I know the 5's...sighs.
As I said, the upright shows all the cups spilled...the man asleep perhaps drunk because he indulged too much trying to drown his sorrows...and the woman is upsidedown( reminding me of the hanged man)....hair everywhere...defiantly spilling the cups... OR it could be the phyche of her...the counter to her..her subcounsious...he is after all very blue...it could be that in order for her to move forward she will need to look very deep into her self to find what it is that is broken ...and spilled out...so she can pick up the pieces and move on....
The man...if you look at it like that...looks tired...and defeated...she looks determined and ready...(hmmm teary) It is a cycle...grief before healing...(really teary now) Sometimes we need to let go of all the cups...and only take back those that are worth the taking...

Also...something my spouse saw in this card is that the water is the same for her as it is for him(we had this card) and he mentioned a verse in the old testiment bible...The rain falls on the just and the unjust alike... Which means...that a person can take the glass of water and say half empty or half full...but it doesn't change the fact the the water fills only half the glass. Did that make sense. Some things just are...its what we do with them. With this card the water is moving...regardless...The change of the 5's usually happens without warning...and is usually out of our control...but again it is how she is dealing with it vs how he is...which is as I said the embodiment of the 5 of cups...for me ...and cups...emotions...crying can be positive and neg...grieving can be postitive or negitive...getting stuck in a rut of sadness can be bad... working through it is good. But its alllll hard. So ya...grins.

Anyway...thats my oppinion about these reversals...just thought I would write a few words...laffs at me...

K

early mornings and coffee...zooooooooom!

Bell

[magpie9]

Wow! Well done, Bell. You bring a lot of clarity and compassion to the 5's.

[Flavio]

As for reading the more difficult cards... Wong is an artist...so He is creative...there were bound to be slight nuances that would be almost non visible on the first look at the card. I guess I don't find them difficult to read because as an artist I am looking for the symbolizm in what he has created...I found interesting the comments this deck has received, I mean, this deck is a great introduction to the world of reversed cards, I believe a lot of people was waiting for cards like this, but as this deck is very modern in concept and not a 100% close to RWS it has dissapointed some readers, as you I like these cards and take its symbolism as it is, some reversal meanings and images are not traditional at all but they have grown on me as I spend time with this wonderful cards.

[tieduptinkerbell]

thanks magpie....and i love that name...giggles...don't know why...reminds me of a nursery rhyme...

me

[zachlost]

Wong is an artist...so He is creative...there were bound to be slight nuances that would be almost non visible on the first look at the card.
Art is a language in its ownself. Often it is a language constructed by the artist in vain hope to communicate with others on a common level. In this case the art was created on a language the artist would understand instantaneously. The language however, was created from borrowed elements of this life and the world around. It is always beautiful when some one else understands the language without having to ask why. To me, it is even more touching when they take the time to understand.

There is tons of movement in the card...bubbles...the current against the seaweed. If anyone has ever gone scuba diving, you know that even though to the naked eye the water looks calm, the current under the surface gets stronger the deeper you get.

The flow follows the "S" shape of two figures from center out. It is the subtle sensation of a motion washing past both figures urging them to move (on).

Also...the cups...when upright they show all spilled ...
The glass is never half empty or full when submerged in water ;)

mornings and coffee...zooooooooom!
I drink coke in the morning - for breakfast!

The 5 of Cups is the first card of that suit I ever drew. I did the crazy thing of randomly picking up a different card to draw and it was a good 15 cards of Swords, Suits, and Pentacles before my first cup. I poured a lot of energy into the details.

The amazing thing about details is that often you can get lost in them. But for each layer of ink and each choice of colour, a good intention lies behind.