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bladeraven
29-08-2005, 06:39
She's a Monster...that's all I can say about Katrina. I was curious what the astrological charts have had to say about her?? She's not heading here but I'm in tears and filled with fear about what the next 12 hours will bring.

dadsnook2000
29-08-2005, 07:48
The Church of Light in Los Angelos, CA has long had published material that teaches their method of calculating and interpreting weather charts. The process involves the use of three different charts; the incursion of the Sun into the cardinal signs (warmth), the change of signs by Mercury (wind) and new-moon charts (moisture). These are used in conjunction with average weather charts for the area you live in or are interested in -- the three charts are used to determine variations from seasonal weather patterns.

I have noted that some patterns are indicative of certain weather no matter what the Sun-Mercury-Moon charts look like. All in all, I've had excellent results with their system. One of the Boston astrological groups that I belonged to was planning their annual picnic -- until I related what the charts said about the weather for that day. The group was unfazed and just rescheduled for the following weekend. It did start raining the day the picnic was originally planned for, and we had a fine day the next week. If you have software that can knock out charts easily, I'd try their system. Dave

jumptothemoonyea
29-08-2005, 16:05
Here are the aspects for New Orleans, La for tonight:

Uranus (in Pisces) - Sun (virgo) --- opposition
Uranus - Moon (in cancer) --- trine
Uranus - Mercury ----inconjunct
Mars (taurus) - Mercury (Leo) - Neptune (Aquarius) ---T-square
Mars - Neptune ---square
Mars - Mercury ---- square
Mars - Black Moon ----square
Mars - Jupiter ----inconjunction
Neptune - Mercury ----opposition
Neptune - Black Moon ----opposition
Neptune - Jupiter ----trine
Neptune - Venus ---- trine
Pluto - Mercury ---- trine
Pluto - Black Moon ---- trine
Pluto - Mars ---- biquintile (144 - pentagram angle)
Pluto - Jupiter - sextile

What show the disaster?

dadsnook2000
30-08-2005, 00:11
Jumptothemoonyea, it's not so simple as a listing of planets and some general aspects. Let's look at some typical and basic astrological charting guidelines.

1) As a general rule a "chart" is for a specific moment and a specific place and is not a list of planet positions for a period of time.

2) A chart cast for a specific time and place yields "angles". The angles are the structure for illustrating which planets and patterns will be powerful and which will be weak.

3) A hurricane is a "process" that covers time. Although you can cast a chart for when the eyewall hits a particular place, such as New Orleans, you have to realize that the hurricane covers a broad span of "time". It effects start earlier and lasts longer.

4) "Cyclic" charts are often used for some studies such as weather and world events. In this case, the Church of Light system (which I mentioned in my post) uses a Sun-into-cardinal-sign chart, a Mercury-changing-signs chart, and a lunar-cycle chart. Each charting approach utilizes the angles for a location and shows the factors that make up the "weather" such as warmth (Sun), wind (Mercury) and moisture (Moon).

As far as your listing goes one could or might associate some planetary patterns with weather such as Mars-Mercury-Neptune or Uranus-Sun. But, those patterns alone without context for a time-place chart are vague at best. The bottom line is that astrology is not simplistic and can not be made into a shortcut system such as some try to do with natal charts -- there is far more to astrology than the "basics". If you are seriously interested in weather astrology there are specialized books available and some astrologers who are quite capable in those practices. Dave

jumptothemoonyea
30-08-2005, 02:26
Thanks Dave, it is very true what you said.

Minderwiz
30-08-2005, 05:19
Dave,

I'll look up the Church of Light stuff, it does look interesting, thanks for the info.

You also make some exceedingly good points about the difficulty of using event charts to deal with the hurricane. Indeed to be useful we need a chart set several hours or possibly days before such a potentially catestrophic event in order to be any use at all on deciding strategies for action.

I suppose horary might be a possible approach - a question such as 'Will New Orleans be devastated by hurricane Katrina?' - Though the actual question would need some refining from this. Even so, such a horary might work for that one location but say nothing about somewhere else. Thus the answer could be 'No' and indeed New Orleans goes largely unharmed but several miles up the coast there is severe loss of life. I don't think horary would be wide enough to give an overall situation that it is good enough for action.

As you so rightly say, planetary patterns are not enough - what matters is their relationship to the four cardinal points of the Chart - this is what geographically locates the event and anchors it to the world in which we live.

Deszroo
30-08-2005, 06:05
Hi...bladeraven. Have you considered Varuna?.

"Varuna is also related to water and air elements. Many circumnavigations etc. began or ended when the Sun was in conjunction with Varuna. Strong Varuna goes into the charts of natural disasters (such as the air hurricanes or the tsunami) rather often".

http://astrologic.ru/english/Varuna.htm

Varuna now (Jun.01,1993 to Dec.31,2012 Cancer)
http://www.librarising.com/FWA/Ptables/varuna%20signs.html

I still have not found much in the way of Varuna and its interpretive astrological applications..e.g. Varuna through each sign,house, etc....but if the top url can be any guide I guess thats a start.

Also as always this is hurricane season for some parts of the world and as such can usually be pretty tremendous.

Desz

isthmus nekoi
30-08-2005, 11:51
Complex as astro is, we all have to start somewhere :)

Funnily enough, when I saw the Neptune-Mars-Merc T-square closing in from the last full moon, I thought of exercising caution in terms of drugs, water, and anything Neptune-Merc wise...

Deszroo
30-08-2005, 14:13
As I look at the t-square....mars and mercury capture more of my attention in that both are good contenders for dryness and heat vs air and water situation. Mercury, Mars, Aquarius...I thought of mechanical breakdowns and mishaps...perhaps even caused by water...too little or too much. Although Nep is water...Aquarius is also air (and supposed to be "astral" fluid pouring out of the bearer jug;). Following some reports on Kartina.. yes lots of water....yet there is also a shortage of drinkable water in some places, no air conditioning or electricty..and that area can get pretty hot weather wise this time of year. So with all that water damage there is a countering dry/heat drought situation building up. Other happenings in the news... related to the mars and mercury especially I think...was a dramatic situation..in NY I believe...in which a woman gave birth to triplets! by c-section!! (how fun that must have been)...before she had some kind of open heart surgery on her aorta!. There are of course terrifically wonderful and not so wonderful things happening every moment. Yet, the Chambers fellow who did 15years on account of murder charges...was back in the news due to drug charges or some drug issue.

Also found this interesting link
http://www.zodiacal.com/articles/weather/99florida.htm

Desz

dadsnook2000
30-08-2005, 23:07
Deszroo wrote . . . "As I look at the t-square....mars and mercury capture more of my attention in that both are good contenders for dryness and heat vs air and water situation. Mercury, Mars, Aquarius...I thought of mechanical breakdowns and mishaps...perhaps even caused by water...too little or too much. Although Nep is water...Aquarius is also air (and supposed to be "astral" fluid pouring out of the bearer jug. Following some reports on Kartina.. yes lots of water...."

This is precisely why charts that have a location and a time are needed for analysis. Specifically you need to have the right type of time/place chart. The system that I referred to, and use, recognizes that weather is comprised of warmth/cold, wind and moisture content -- and that this is modified by the topigraphical features of the area in question. This concept and process makes sense. It also requires a deeper level of astrological practice. Any of these special areas do, just as any investigation of development after birth and event definition or prediction, etc.

You can't tell much from a couple of planets involved in an aspect pattern. In the weather charts I noted, planets on/near the IC have the most impact on the analysis, planets on/near the ASC have some impact and planets aspecting the key-focus planet (Sun, Mercury or Moon for warmth, wind or moisture) has a lesser amount of influence. These are very specific approaches to understanding and assessing a chart and it is this type of rigorous approach that is needed. Anything less is a large waste of time.

This is why I always remind those relatively new to astrology to not focus on natal charts alone but to explore other types of charts and applications once they have the basics of natal astrology down. Dave

Minderwiz
31-08-2005, 02:02
From a traditional point of view, Dave's planetary characteristics make a lot of sense. The Sun is a Hot and Dry planet (rather obviously), Mars is a Hot and Dry planet (usually taken as the hotest in the sense that Mars heat is likely to be a negative element in a chart, whereas the Sun's heat can be positive, as it is nescessary for life)

The Moon is cold and moist (indeed the Moon is the wettest planet). Jupiter is Hot and Moist (nescessary for growth) and Saturn is Cold and Dry (Saturn is the coldest planet)

Mercury and Venus can be variable depending on phase - Venus is slightly hot and slightly moist when it is oriental (the Morning star) and is slightly cold and slightly moist when it is occidental (the Evening Star). Mercury is slightly cold and slightly dry when it is occidental and slightly hot and slightly moist when it is oriental (as it is now), as Dave says, Mercury rules the winds.

The outer planets are a little more speculative, but Uranus should be associated with erratic and changing conditions, Neptune with milder damp weather conditions and Pluto possibly with storms and tempests - though this is very very very speculative.

However to make sense of which is the most important planet(s) for local weather it is vital to have a chart set for a specific location.

For weather patterns and cycles in general, changes are probably linked to lunar cycles, the Saros cycles and the Sunspot cycle - again though location is important.

Flidais
31-08-2005, 02:19
Excuse me if I'm being dense, but wouldn't it make more sense to view the positions of the planets and stars as they aspect the "birth chart" of the specific location under examination (e.g., New Orleans)? After all, the same planetary positions exist everywhere "today" -- so why would one part of the world be having a hurricane but not another?

dadsnook2000
31-08-2005, 02:28
Flidais, you are overlooking an important "non-astrological" factor -- the local topology for the area in question. If the several weather charts for the time periods and for the location of the area where Katrina struck were instead applied to a place like Saudi Arabia you wouldn't have a hurricane!

You can't get the prevailing winds and moisture from a warm-sea area (which is very remote from Saudi Arabia) to flow with the force and moisture needed. So, even if the angles of the chart and the planetary patterns and postions in the chart were identical, it just wouldn't happen.

It's like many things in astrology -- there is often more to the process than first meets the eye. That's why in my post I mentioned warmth-wind-moisture AND topology/seasonal variations as being part of the methodology.
Dave

Flidais
31-08-2005, 02:34
Flidais, you are overlooking an important "non-astrological" factor -- the local topology for the area in question.

No, I'm not. I was using "hurricane" as an example (a poor one, I suppose). What I am trying to say is that I don't think you can use current planetary placements to explain why a hurricane hit New Orleans, when areas all over the world (with topology similar to New Orleans) are having beautiful weather under those same planetary conditions.

jumptothemoonyea
31-08-2005, 03:24
Here is the chart for New Orleans, LA, born 8/29/2005 at 6:00 AM

http://imageheap.com/theheap/51175806.gif

Now we have location, angles, topology. Where is Katrina in this chart?

dadsnook2000
31-08-2005, 04:06
I believe that you are indeed missing the point. The weather charts are period charts cast for the exact time that the Sun enters the preceeding cardinal sign, when Mercury previously entered its present sign, and when the last new moon occured -- and all of these charts are also calculated for the specific area in question. In other words, each chart is time & location specific. Next, the planets that are primarily used are those that are at the angles of each time/place chart, most importantly the IC angle and less importantly the ASC angle.

These charts do not correspond to the whole world but do correspond to a particular place. On top of that, you have to take the seasonal weather for that area into account as the charts indicate the variations from the norm.

Dave

dadsnook2000
31-08-2005, 04:10
jumptothemoonyea, your chart is not reflective of a weather chart either. It does show planetary placements for the appropriate place and for a given time -- but it does not look at warmth, wind and moisture as applied in the system researched and developed by the Church of Light. It is just a "here and now" chart, not a weather chart, not a chart that shows the hurricane as an ongoing process with roots that started elsewhere and started earlier and which will finish later. Dave

Flidais
31-08-2005, 04:11
Here is the chart for New Orleans, LA, born 8/29/2005 at 6:00 AM. http://imageheap.com/theheap/51175806.gif
Now we have location, angles, topology. Where is Katrina in this chart?
New Orleans was not "born" on 8/29/2005. The "birth date" of a city is usually considered to be the date it was founded. I believe New Orleans was founded Feb. 17, 1805. You would take that chart and look at transits for the dates leading up to and including the hurricane.

The chart for 8/29/2005 would be considered an event chart. The problem I have with an event chart in this case is that it would be basically the same chart all over the globe. Why is New Orleans experiencing catastrophic weather, yet other places (even those with similar topology) are not.

edited to add: Dave, we were posting at the same time. I agree. I am missing the point. I will give this more thought, but at present, I am not following the idea of "weather charting".

Flidais
31-08-2005, 04:40
Dave,

Would this book be a good one to explain the system you are describing? Or is there a way to find out more without a $22.95 expenditure?

WEATHER PREDICTING The Hermetic System of Astrological Weather Analysis - C.C. Zain, $22.95. Contents: Table of contents; List of charts; About this book; Forward; Serial lesson key; Astrological weather predicting; Reading astrological weather charts; Astrological temperature charts; Astrological air movement charts; Astrological moisture charts; Unusual weather; Tornadoes & hurricanes.

jumptothemoonyea
31-08-2005, 04:47
Hello Flidais, you are right. This is the event chart for the particular place on Earth, New Orleans, LA, for a particular time - 6:00 AM. No historical data here. No previous events, just the NOW.

As for the The problem I have with an event chart in this case is that it would be basically the same chart all over the globe.

here is the chart for the same time for Paris. It looks different. Houses shifted, angles changed slightly, which is what location affects:

http://imageheap.com/theheap/82211230.gif

paradoxx
31-08-2005, 04:50
The chart for 8/29/2005 would be considered an event chart. The problem I have with an event chart in this case is that it would be basically the same chart all over the globe.

Except for the accendant, since a different segement of the sky would be rising in the east, however using the event chart in contrast to the birthchart might give you some insight as to the nature of how damaging Katrina has been.

also two asteroids (14258) Katrinaminck and (31240) Katrianne (the only two Katrina asteroids there are) are both in pisces retrograde @ 7 and 21 degrees. Katrinaminck is conjunct Uranus (also rx) oppose the virgo sun and Katrianne is squared to pluto.

Deszroo
31-08-2005, 05:05
Planets for Feb 17, 1805 (New Orleans founded)
http://www.astro.com/swisseph/ae/1800/ae_1805.pdf

"Katrina’s chart is cast for her first landfall on August 25, 2005 at 6:30 PM EDT just south of Fort Lauderdale <chart link>, Florida".
http://www.morganaseawalker.com/HKat.JPG

...see site of abovementioned quote for more info:
http://www.astroworld.us/archives/000526.html



Desz

Flidais
31-08-2005, 05:35
Except for the accendant...
Right, I was not taking house cusps into account. But even if you do, the ascendant would be the same in many different locales, right? Also, the ascendant would change over the course of the hurricane's passage, so I don't know how helpful it would be anyway.

Flidais
31-08-2005, 05:40
...here is the chart for the same time for Paris. It looks different. Houses shifted, angles changed slightly, which is what location affect.

LOL. Yes, I realize that location affects house cusps and angles. So Paris is different from New Orleans, but what about other cities? Wouldn't lots of cities have the same ascendant as New Orleans on a particular date? Plus, the ascendant changes during the course of a day. What do you do with that?

It seems more logical to me to take the birth chart, with its planetary placements fixed in time, and look at how transiting planets and stars affect it. As far as angles, we would need a "time of birth" for New Orleans to work with that.

edited to add: Actually, we should probably have a "time of birth" for New Orleans anyway in order to pinpoint the exact placement of "natal" planets.

dadsnook2000
31-08-2005, 05:50
The book you cited by C.C. Zain, Weather Predicting, is the book in question and is among the 300+ astrology books I disposed of a few years back in order to gain room for more new books. It is deep and written in early 1900's style like the Rosicrucian books or those by the 1800 and 1900 english authors. But it is detailed and it gives specific instructions and provides a great many worked examples. These people have done their homework. The only other thing you will need is seasonal weather charts for any of the areas you need to follow weather charting for -- these can often be found easily on the Internet or in any large library. Dave

Flidais
31-08-2005, 06:32
Thanks, Dave. It sounds fascinating -- but I probably shouldn't try to get into it too deeply right now. Where weather is concerned, the Church of Light approach certainly sounds better than event charts or examining transits to the "natal chart" of the place where the event occurs.

jumptothemoonyea
31-08-2005, 07:23
jumptothemoonyea, your chart is not reflective of a weather chart either. It does show planetary placements for the appropriate place and for a given time -- but it does not look at warmth, wind and moisture as applied in the system researched and developed by the Church of Light. It is just a "here and now" chart, not a weather chart, not a chart that shows the hurricane as an ongoing process with roots that started elsewhere and started earlier and which will finish later. Dave

True, this is not a weather chart. This is an astrological chart. Which depicts astrological forces. Like watery dreamy Neptune, or electrifying exploding Uranus, ferocious Mars, gentle Venus, etc. I was not looking for the temperature or humidity information in the chart. It is the fact (event) of destruction by Water and Wind, the power unparallel to what humans can control, the Source of it, explanation, not in terms of physical numbers, but by non-physical forces.

Minderwiz
31-08-2005, 07:56
What I think Dave was saying was that Astrology needs to be blended with sense - you don't get hurricanes and tidal waves in Saudi Arabia. Therefore when you interpret a chart you do so in the context of reality.

Natal Astrology and other forms of Astrology also need to bear the context in mind. A reading of current trends for a 10 year old would not lead to a prediction of marriage, even if Venus is lady of the seventh and is trined by transiting Jupiter (and any other seeming indicator of marriage). Nor for a 70 year old woman would we make predictions of pregnancy from the condition of the ruler of the fifth and planets in the fifth.

Astrological symbols can have many possible meanings within a chart, it's not a matter of pulling out the cookbook and saying that Venus must equal wife, or the Moon must be Mother. Much of the skill of interpretation lies in choosing between possible meanings of a planet or an aspect or aspect pattern. Thus the planetary symbology of hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico could mean something very different in another location. The question for the Astrologer is how will these planetary positions or aspect/pattern manifest in this particular set of conditions, for this particular individual or location or organisation.

I don't know whether the Church of Light approach is as good as Dave suggests, I will certainly follow it up, but I do know that one planetary formation does not manifest in the same way for everyone or every location.

Edited to add:

Short term weather conditions are notoriously chaotic (in the context of Chaos theory) I therefore do have some doubts about the application of Astrology in these circumstances and perhaps we need to be ultra careful in any such applications (though I hope I'm wrong). Long term and very long term weather conditions seem to follow cycles and therefore are a potentially excellent area for Astrological investigation.

Minderwiz
31-08-2005, 08:08
In terms of location, Ascendants and MCs.

All places with the same longitude have the same MC but the Ascendant will vary with latitude - i.e. no two places on the same meridian will share the same values for MC and ASC.

By the same token, no two places that have the same Ascendant will share the same MC. The Ascendant and MC combination are specific to one locality.

Although Astrological charts may only quote Ascendant and MC in degrees and minutes, these are rounded. The MC and ASC measured with accuracy are unique to one location and one location only.

Flidais
31-08-2005, 09:03
Although Astrological charts may only quote Ascendant and MC in degrees and minutes, these are rounded. The MC and ASC measured with accuracy are unique to one location and one location only.
Yes, this is true. But would tiny differences in the ascendant account for a catastrophe in one city but not in another? If so, how? I just don't see it.

paradoxx
31-08-2005, 10:31
I guess its a good thing that we are taking the City in to account and not the states affected, since the states were originally part of French territory, then US, and then Confederate, and then US again. However, since the storm actually pummled Biloxi and the other rural areas in Mississipi maybe we should compare the differences between Neo Orleans and the area hit the worst.

But with only 12 degree difference in longitude (90deg north as opposed to 88 north, and a .4 difference in lattitude the charts should be similar for this event, which marks the hurricane arrival. This also raises the question of does astrology act as a diviniation beacon for everything, or for the things that are more predictable? which of course a hurricane is not.

Added:

I didn't just want to make anotehr post so here is what I found out.

using a combination of the founding year of Biloxi 1838(no monthly date found) associated with the state annual admission date of Mississippi (December 10), asteroid Katrienne was at 0deg Cancer REtrograde with the accendant being Pisces with the noon time being used, a water sign moving into air, sounds like a hurricane to me.

As opposed to New Orelans, using the Feb 17, 1805 date (noon time-Gemini Accendant), Asteroid Katrienne was moving direct into pisces from aquarius, the opposite elemental sitaution as the biloxi information I just used.

I'm going to stop there becasue these divinitory waters are getting too complicated to navigate anymore.

So I guess astrology does act as a beacon, you just need to find the right "frequency".

Minderwiz
03-09-2005, 06:04
Yes, this is true. But would tiny differences in the ascendant account for a catastrophe in one city but not in another? If so, how? I just don't see it.

We need to be a little careful here. Firstly The disaster area as Paradoxx points out will have a fairly similar chart for any town or place within it. This shouldn't be surprising because they have all suffered a fairly similar (though not uniform) level of disaster and they all experienced very similar weather conditions.

Now if we are talking about weather as such - and that was what Dave was doing - we are simply confirming that an Astrological weather chart for a particular place, or places close by, will experience similar weather conditions. Places some distance away will not experience these conditions - in that sense there is catastrophe in New Orleans or Biloxi but not Atlanta or Houston. Also don't forget that shift in latitude or longitude is not the most important factor for changing Ascendants - time is! - every four minutes the Ascendant changes one degree, whatever the location.

Within the disaster area the effects are uneven - due to characteristics such as sea defences, population concentration, local variations in the weather conditions (weather is chaotic - a tornado hit Birmingham, England earlier this year but the damage was confined to two streets). If you want to examine the difference between degrees of devastation of disaster within the region then it might well be worth looking for comparisons with the mundane charts marking the founding of the city or town and comparing these to the refined (Astrological) weather chart. However, it's still quite possible that a difference of one degree or less on the Ascendant can mean that an aspect to the Ascendant is perfected or even does not form at all. For a range of places the aspects to the Ascendant might have varying intensity, in terms of closeness of orb or whether they are applying or separating. Indeed, if you look at some of the mystery charts that we've been discussing, even a few minutes on the Ascendant may well mean that the Ascendant shifts sign.

There is also clearly an issue of timing of the chart and whether this would be common for all places within a region or whether it differs from place to place - which again would almost mean a variety of Ascendants.

Now I'm not taking a position here on the accuracy or efficacy of Astrological weather forecasting - I don't know enough about it. What I am saying is that in any Astrological charting, the Ascendant is a key point and that a chart which does not explicitly or implicitly reference an Ascendant or the related MC is of little or no validity.

Lynda
03-09-2005, 06:43
Originally Posted by Flidais - you said:
Yes, this is true. But would tiny differences in the ascendant account for a catastrophe in one city but not in another? If so, how? I just don't see it.

You can find a wealth of information in very little change in a chart by looking at the Sabian Symbols for the asc/desc and mc/ic... they can tell an entirely different story, just with the movement of a few minutes or a few degrees of longitude.

Greetings from Phoenix, Arizona
Lynda

Lynda
03-09-2005, 06:54
Here are the aspects for New Orleans, La for tonight:

Uranus (in Pisces) - Sun (virgo) --- opposition
Uranus - Moon (in cancer) --- trine
Uranus - Mercury ----inconjunct
Mars (taurus) - Mercury (Leo) - Neptune (Aquarius) ---T-square
Mars - Neptune ---square
Mars - Mercury ---- square
Mars - Black Moon ----square
Mars - Jupiter ----inconjunction
Neptune - Mercury ----opposition
Neptune - Black Moon ----opposition
Neptune - Jupiter ----trine
Neptune - Venus ---- trine
Pluto - Mercury ---- trine
Pluto - Black Moon ---- trine
Pluto - Mars ---- biquintile (144 - pentagram angle)
Pluto - Jupiter - sextile

What show the disaster?

A lot of those configurations show the disaster IMO. But, if you look at the Sabian Symbols, you'll also get a much clearer picture.

When the hurricane hit land, Venus and the South Node were conjunct at Libra 15: Circular Paths.... this is the degree of Mercury and the ascendant on 9/11. Circular Paths can, but doesn't necessarily!, show a hurricane.

Jupiter was on Libra 19: The Gang or Robbers in Hiding with Mars on Taurus 17: A Symbolical Battle Between Swords and Torches.

As usual, hindsight serves us of course! The vast majority of astrologers (me included) would probably not have predicted such a catastrophe from the planetary placements.

As the days unfolded after the hurricane, Venus moved onto Libra 16: A Boat Landing Washed Away and then onto Libra 18: Two Men Placed Under Arrest and Libra 19: The Gang of Robbers in Hiding.

Mars moved onto Taurus 18: A Woman Airing a Bag Out of a Sunny Window... this degree shows the need to clean up to mop up and air out.

What a shocking event this is! I think Mars retrograde is going to have a lot of messages for us in the coming weeks. Mars goes retrograde on Oct 1 at Taurus 24: An Indian Warrior Riding Fiercely With Human Scalps at His Belt... it seems that people are going to want to 'take scalps' about all of this. And there is the inevitable backlash over the looting and the gun toting that's going on. The Sun-Uranus opposition shows the need for folks to take things into their own hands, to defy authority and, in some cases, to act like downright thugs... guns, rapes, bashings...

It's completely awful to contemplate, but the degree of the Sun on the day of the hurricane is interesting to observe. It's Virgo 7: The Harem - the poor folk in New Orleans are apparently seen as being rather unimportant. I can't imagine that the huge delays in bringing relief would happen if this disaster had happened in the richer areas of California, for instance.

Mars, when it goes retrograde on Oct 1, will be opposite Venus exactly. Venus on Scorpio 24: Crowds Coming Down the Mountain to Listen to One Man... people will be wanting answers.

and the oil thing seems fit to get much, much worse.

Greetings from Phoenix, Arizona
Lynda Hill

Deszroo
03-09-2005, 18:16
This observations about the Sabian Symbols was really a great idea. Given the catastophic weather related meaning of the planet Varuna and how/when it showed up in events and charts (see my earlier post for info if you like)..I took a look at the Sabian for:

Varuna *** CANCER 16 ***

# 106

A MAN STUDYING A MANDALA IN FRONT OF HIM, WITH THE HELP OF A VERY ANCIENT BOOK


You may be puzzled by the deeper meanings of the situation. The key to this is often in old knowledge and wisdom. Perhaps you feel `boxed in' by your situation. You must seek what is already known in order to understand. Knowledge is available to you. Studying `the secret mysteries' can reveal answers to life's questions. Overcoming obstacles by gaining control of one's inner and outer life. Astrology. Architecture and strategic planning. Systems of thought that are laid out.

The Caution: Ignoring old wisdom for modern rational systems. Lack of imagination

Desz

Lynda
03-09-2005, 18:24
Hi Desz

It's great that you quoted the Sabian Symbol for Varuna - how apt!! but I do get a little dismayed when people don't credit the source. I see people cutting and pasting my interpretations all over the web and very few people credit me as the author... I really want people to quote my writing, but do think people should follow basic and courteous protocol!

But, yeah, Varuna is really interesting on that degree. I've seen time and again that degree (Cancer 16) prominently in a chart where maneuvers are needed... even war games. Strategies need to be employed... sounds about right.

Greetings from Phoenix
Lynda

Deszroo
03-09-2005, 19:58
Thanks for reply. Please accept my apologies. I have quoted your site and name credited often in other places as well as this site in a recent post. In most cases I have and would have credited directly. Momentary not the norm..point taken...the fact that I was sharing the info with the author and on a board that so well knows the author work....its seems a bit redundant and overkil to have to put a credit much less to admonish over it... if it were any other time a credit would be due and helpful to everyone...no harm or disrespect was actually ment.


Gratcie, Ciao
Desz

Lynda
03-09-2005, 20:42
No worries, as they say Down Under, Desz. Thanks for quoting the Symbols - I always appreciate it when people use them, I just like to see a credit go along with it.

Greetings from Phoenix
Lynda

MCsea
03-09-2005, 21:21
Hey Lynda,

Have you had a chance to copy paste this into your own blog or board?
its just TOO good all the symbols..

Hope you and yours are safe and happy there

MARINA

Lynda
04-09-2005, 04:04
Hi Marina

I'm posting various things up on my blog - regarding the board, we're moving the site to a new server and I'm leaving posting anything there... besides which, I've had trouble accessing the board for the last month of travelling in the States on different computers!

Thanks!

Lynda

rainwolf
04-09-2005, 06:43
How interesting that your sabian system came into play, Lynda. :)

I look forward to hearing further discussion on it and I hope I can get your book in the near future or for a birthday (cant spend excess cash right now :()

MCsea
04-09-2005, 11:09
Hey Lynda, I forgot about the new site, cant wait!!



Hey rainwolf, I have three personal copies of Lynda Hills Sabian Symbol books, one to write in, one next to the computer and one in the lounge for 'readings' and have given MANY for presents...
I reckon it is my most valued book.. by far.
I just know you will enjoy it!

take care

MARINA

bladeraven
04-09-2005, 11:50
Oh my...been busy with work and finally checking my email and catching up on posts very slowly and came here...it's really fascinating...I'm a newbie to astrology and barely cracked the "Astrology for Dummies" book due to being busy...and just reading the posts and trying to take it all in...

It was interesting about the point about New Orleans use to being a part of the French Territory....in that case...what would be consider the "right" birthdate for it...when it was owned by the French or consider as an "American" state and when it gets rebuilt...will that influence or change the "birthdate" since it will obviously become a different city..

Please forgive me if this is a silly question.

paradoxx
04-09-2005, 12:53
No, not silly at all:

Although the date for New Orleans has been mentioned, Louisiana's astro information could synchronize along with the louisiana purchase from the early United States American history, as much of the weather impacts that large midwestern/southeast area.

Likewise, the damage to the whole of Louisiana could be examined using Louisianas founding date, April 30, 1812. New Orleans was February 17, 1805 (as mentioned by Flidais).

As for your final question about "will that influence or change the "birthdate" since it will obviously become a different city..," would be more realistically referred to as a milestone, a point of no return.

I do not know
12-09-2005, 13:15
New Orleans was founded in early 1718 by Bienville. The Feb 17, 1805 date is probably used because there's a definite day associated with it, accurate legislative records a month after incorporation (whatever that was in those days) blah, blah, blah.

paradoxx
12-09-2005, 14:20
And as much as I would like to know and share, I can't access any New Oreleans websites-probably due to Katrina.

I do not know
12-09-2005, 16:34
"In the spring of 1718, at a place he had recommended – a portage between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain – Bienville was in charge of establishing a company post and a town to be known as New Orleans. He knew that silting passes at the mouth of the Mississippi River would be a problem, but he favoured dredging to maintain needed depth rather than abandoning the advantages of a river and sea port. He recognized the need of levees as a protection against flooding and proposed a canal that would link river and lake."
http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBio.asp?BioId=35608
(this site also sheds some light on the 1699 date)

"New Orleans was founded in 1718 by the French as La Nouvelle-Orléans, under the direction of Jean-Baptiste Le Moyne de Bienville. The site was selected because it was a rare bit of natural high ground along the flood-prone banks of the lower Mississippi, and was adjacent to a Native American trading route and portage between the Mississippi and Lake Pontchartrain via Bayou St. John (known to the natives as Bayou Choupique). A community of French fur trappers and traders had existed along the bayou (in what is now the middle of New Orleans) for at least a decade before the official founding of the city. Nouvelle-Orléans became the capital of French Louisiana in 1722, replacing Biloxi in that role."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans

There are other Internet sources that confirm this.

All of this becomes mute when we realize there doesn't appear to be a "day" associated with Bienville's "first" New Orleans adventures, throwing a monkey wrench into the concept of 24-hour rectification for proper angle placement. Perhaps some of the ships logs, if they're still in existence anywhere (France?), would shed light on that precise day, but the logs don't appear to be online, if they are, I haven't found them.

There is online information that suggests that Bienville first sited the area in 1699, the site that he would later decide to name New Orleans.

The monk
13-09-2005, 10:58
I thought i would put the mundane fixed star parans and limited interpretation on thread for New Orleans/Katrina. (Sorry that it will be a limited interpretation as it can be as long as a normal natal reading!).
The background themes which can be active for several months.
Neptune on nadir when Menkar is setting
Menkar can be a very unfortunate star, it is the alpha star of Cetus the whale, and represents the human collective unconsciousness, that can erupt like a beast from the deep bearing , with equal probability , moments of great collective insight, or chaos and mayhem. With Menkar intertwinned with Neptune we could symbolically expect mayhem that is caused by the sea, or flooding.
Uranus Culminating when Alphecca is setting.
This is interesting and im copying Bernadette Brady with this, " Safety systems or security systems fail".
Pluto- on nadir when El Nath is culminating.
Destruction in a manner not previously considered.
I Have El Nath in Paran with my Mercury and i am very active with my communication against Nuclear weapons. On August 9th 1945 El-Nath was also rising with Uranus at the lattitude of Nagasaki, Japan, and you know what destruction that was caused then, so i think you get the general picture of El Naths capabilities!
Heliacal rising star- Alphard.
Emotional upheavals and distress, criminal activity.
Heliacal setting star- Sadalmelek.
A time when good planning or networking would be of great use.
Sun setting when Alpheratz is rising.
To take independent action.
Moon-the emotions of the people, on nadir when Fomalhaut is rising.
The people are moved by patriotism or other idealistic causes.
Moon setting when Diadem is culminating.
To care for victims.
Moon setting when Mirach is on Nadir.
Wanting peace, feelings of sentimentality.
Mercury rising when Zuben Elgenubi is on nadir.
The drafting of new laws for the safety of the people, or commerce.
Mercury on nadir when Alphard is on nadir.
secrets revealed, a vitriolic outburst.
Venus setting when Alhena on nadir.
Social reform issues.
Mars on nadir when pollux is setting.
The unpopular,alternative or none establishment argument wins the day.
Mars setting when Zuben Elgenubi is rising.
People helping people.
Mars setting when Alphard is culminating.
The ruthless action of an individual or group.
Jupiter on nadir when Mirach is culminating.
Greed and excesses.
Saturn on nadir when Ankaa is rising.
Strong leadership comes out of chaos....lets hope so!!!!
I thought you may find this interesting.

jumptothemoonyea
13-09-2005, 12:10
Have found this info:

http://www.infoplease.com/dayinhistory/Aug-25

August 25, 1718 New Orleans was founded by French settlers and named after the Duke of Orleans.

Is it right?

dadsnook2000
13-09-2005, 12:42
We might want to step out of our role as astrologers and consider some basic issues about New Orleans.

** New Orleans, Louisiana, the bayous -- all are part of a regional culture built around history, ethnic mixes, the land-sea-bayou interactions, etc.

** The Lousiana, Missisippi, Alabama coast area has an established network of roads, train routes, river and barge traffic. The people that run these routes are largly still there or will return there.

** The business infrastructure and interrelationships in that area and from that area to the rest of the US and Carribean area have been established and will be resurected and re-started.

** It is too much trouble to rebuild all of the above from scratch. The people have it in their minds and heritage to be part of New Orleans, Biloxi or the back-country. Those that are there or who can get back there and find a way to make a living will do so.

** The area may be different in some ways ten years from now, but the basic pattern or "imprint" of life in that area will remain, persist and grow.

The end point of all of this is that no matter what chart is right, or works, it will/may show this event and experience, but the chart and the people and the area will continue. Dave

I do not know
13-09-2005, 15:47
August 25, 1718 New Orleans was founded by French settlers and named after the Duke of Orleans.

Is it right?
There are indeed a number of websites in french that reference "Nouvelle-Orléans" "25 aout 1718". Thanks!

There are also a couple of Internet references for dates earlier than that.

"1718 Feb. 9 Three ships sent out by the Western Company arrive at Mobile with troops, supplies, and Bienville's commission as commandant-general, or governor.
About the time that Crozat gives up his grant a hurricane chokes up the harbor at Mobile with sand, making it a difficult for vessels to land. The capital of the colony is moved back to Biloxi.
One of the first official acts of Bienville upon becoming governor again is to establish a colony on the Mississippi River with the view to making it the seat of government. He selects the site where the city of New Orleans now stands, puts 50 men to work clearing the ground, and prepares to move, but the Superior Council in Biloxi objects and New Orleans remains a minor outpost for a few more years."
http://www.enlou.com/people/bienville-bio.htm

What's interesting about the Feb. 9 1718 date is the alleged synchronous occurrence of a hurricane. However the date seems specific for the first paragraph. Whether it applies to the following two paragraphs isn't clear.

It appears there's a textbook published in 1917 which suggests 1717 as the beginning.

Translation by babel fish:
"VILLIERS OF WARPING, Marc of. History of the foundation of New-Orleans (1717). National printing works. Paris. 1917."
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/milleansabouhet/html/biblio1.htm