PDA

View Full Version : famous chart exercise #6


isthmus nekoi
04-10-2005, 10:19
It's that time again! Here's another famous person's chart:

http://www.odivinorum.com/images/mysterychart06.jpg

All levels are welcome to post, we welcome cursory impressions to in depth analysis so please, don't be shy!

There are two parts to the exercise:

- First, post your impressions about what type of person you think this chart represents. This is the key part of the exercise to help you develop your natal chart reading skills, so please share all your thoughts.

- Second, try to choose the chart's identity from the following list. Post your guess or withhold it - whatever you're comfortable with - but try not let the cat out of the bag too early on so everyone can have an unbiased guess for themselves!

1) Osamu Tezuka - cited as the father of manga (Japanese comics), Tezuka created the widely successful and lovable android, Astroboy. The recently released film Metropolis was also based on Tezuka's work.

2) Marilyn Monroe - Hollywood starlet, sex symbol, and pop icon, Monroe had something of a turbulent childhood, being a ward of the state. She died an early death at 35, ODing on barbituates.

3) Michel Foucault - continental poststructural critical theorist whose discourse focused on power and social institutions (like hospitals, jails etc). You may have heard of his model of power, the "panopticon". He was also, not surprizingly, active in the SM community.

4) Maya Angelou - African American poet, actress, civil rights activist, professor... Angelou has worn many hats, but is probably most famous for her writing which won her a Pultizer prize.

5) Pol Pot - Leader of the Khmer Rouge, his violent Communist revolution caused the death of millions of Cambodians due to starvation, overwork and execution.

Bonus points
- if you'd like, try to move beyond the individual's personality using houses, their ruling planets and other influential planets. I've tried to pick very different ppl for the list this week to make this part easier on y'all. See you in a week!

prudence
04-10-2005, 11:27
hmmm, well, with the MC in Taurus, and the Asc in Leo, I almost want to say Marilyn, buuuut, something makes me think no.

The Sun is in Gemini, in 10th house and so is Mercury. This person is very quick witted, highly intelligent. Both are accidentally diginified since they are in an angular house.

Would it be completely outlandish to think this person had a mom who may have hit him/her, w/ that 4th House occupation of Saturn, Rx, in Scorpio?

Pluto cusping North Node in 12th House, this person spends a lot of time thinking about things that are deep w/in, and also hospitals/prisons/institututions (12th house stuff).

That Venus, in the 9th House, in Aries, makes me think of a person who approaches sex like a religious experience, seeking answers. Maybe a little on the rough side. (it's opposing the Saturn, Rx, in 4th House, so it seems even more important...but, this is new for me to look at the chart w/out all of the red and blue and green lines)

Moongold
04-10-2005, 22:22
I know it is Marilyn, having studied her chart before. It' s easy for us to be influenced by the popular perception of Marilyn Monroe as flighty but she was actually a very intelligent and thoughtful actress.

She has a predominance of air which can indicate quite a powerful mind but that of course can be offset by other things in the chart.

Her Sun and Mercury in the 10th House indicate something about public life, which she certainly had.

Her Moon in the 7th House square Saturn in the 4th and Mars in Pisces in the 8th House may have given her personal insecurities in relationships and the tendency to be a victim, which is sometimes how she seemed to live her life. However, that again is a huge assumption from me. She did die from an overdose, did she not, although there are lots of theories about that.

Venus and Chiron conjunct each other in the 9th House indicate a kind of vulnerability in relationships as well, a kind of disposition to emotional pain.

I realize that it is easy to analyze someone who is a known public figure and am conscious that I may be looking for evidence for assumptions I already have.

Definitely, Marilyn had a stronger intellect and talent than the media emphasis on her sexuality indicated. Possible she was more clever about her life and what she wanted than anyone realized. She lived in the 50ís and 60ís where the role of women, especially Hollywood women, was fairly well predetermined.

Moongold

Leo62
05-10-2005, 00:18
I know it is Marilyn, having studied her chart before.
Moongold - you party pooper!!!

Just as I was working up my argument in favour of Maya Angelou.;)

isthmus nekoi
05-10-2005, 02:29
LOL, Moongold - I'm supposed to reveal the mystery identity! That's okay, we can still explore MM's chart and see what makes an enduring pop icon...

Astrid, you had some really good points this time :)

As Moongold notes, Monroe was an intelligent woman. Her dumb blonde image was really a result of the roles she had to play in films - written by men, no doubt. It might be an interesting exercise for us to examine her relationships w/men actually....

Also, you wondered if she was abused by her mother... Monroe in fact, did have a very difficult relationship w/her mother and it's likely she was hit by her mum b/c the woman was psychologically unstable (Neptune opposite moon, square Saturn!). 4th house is traditionally assigned to the father although some modern astrologers do see 4th as mother. I think in this case, can apply to both parents as I believe Monroe never knew her biological father.

Also, even though this chart isn't Foucault's - the 12th house would definetely be one of the first places I'd look w/him. Pretty misleading w/Pluto (power relations) on the cusp there too!

Back to Monroe, what struck me is Neptune in 1st, trine to Venus. For most people, she was a complete fantasy woman, a sex *symbol*. More than, but also, less than human. She also exuded a vulnerability that really endeared ppl to her.

Moongold
05-10-2005, 02:50
LOL, Moongold - I'm supposed to reveal the mystery identity! That's okay, we can still explore MM's chart and see what makes an enduring pop icon...
Oh dear, sorry!

This my first such exercise and I couldn't pretend I didn't know who it was.

Marilyn's chart is still very interesting to compare what the chart indicates with what we know of her life.

Will be more careful next time :).

Moongold

prudence
05-10-2005, 02:56
Wow, Moongold! Nice work. :D

well, let's have at it w/ poor Marilyn's chart then. All of that Taurus was an indicator then...hmmm. Maybe this is like the SAT's and we should go w/ our first gut choice? ;)

When I thought it was MM, I looked at the 7th House, I think I had just recently read somewhere that this is the house that may show our "death" so I wondered for a minute about her death, and did it show up in this chart. (my memory being somewhat siv-like, I could be wrong about which house supposedly "shows" this).

I had always heard she wasn't the dolt she played in movies, but I had no idea she was so intelligent. This chart really strikes me w/ it's brainpower.And for some reason, I had assumed that she was a 12th House Sun sign as well. She just seemed so 12th House to me, but I guess that NorthNode, w/ Pluto on top of it like that was enough.

Girseach
05-10-2005, 04:37
It isn't exactly a bucket formation (neptune peeks out a little) hwr - I think it could be interpreted as such - with retrograde saturn in the 4th hosue as the 'handle' of the bucket - it shows that much of MM's energy was focussed on the saturnian men in her life and the attempt to have a home life - the retrograde probably upsetting her attempts.

Worth noting - tho' we all know her as a blonde bombshell - MM actually was a brunette with much more Leo-rising colouring until she was 'discovered'. Her looks could be molded - (neptune in the 1st house - close to the ascend)

Also - if you keep a fairly tight orb for aspects - the ruler of the descendant, Uranus does not form any major aspects (apart from an inconjunct to Neptune in the first house). Her partnerships were unique(Miller), broke some or all of the established rules (Kennedy). If we read the Descendant as a projection of the ascendant (in other words, how you act as opposed to how you are) I think it wouldn't be too difficult to imagine that she had a hard time integrating (no aspects) her powerfully sexual (uranus conj mars in 8th) and unique (uranus, ruler of 7th in 8th house) image into her who she was.

isthmus nekoi
14-10-2005, 03:09
Thought I'd resurrect this thread so we can continue picking at MM's chart.

Astrid> I've never read of 7th being a death house - do you remember where you read it? Perhaps b/c of the symbolism of the setting sun's horizon?... 8th is most known for death, but 4th is also supposed to indicate where you die, I believe...

Girseach> I had no idea she wasn't blonde - not only is her image moldable, it is to many people, a very good illusion! Neptune also opposes her 7th house planets as well as sextile sun. It seems other ppl really related to her in that illusory way and she may very well have had trouble separating that from who she really was.... identity confusion...

Other quick observations:

- 7th house Moon conj Jupiter, opposing Neptune. So here, MM has a deep desire for relationships, but despite the Aquarian placements, that Neptune opposition means it's not exactly an area that is structured or dependable. The romantic bubble is prone to bursting here w/the Saturn square, overinflated w/Jupiter's optimism. However, moon represents public and in the public's eyes, I don't think MM's fantasy image has ever "burst".

- I'll take traditional ruler for 7th, which is Saturn. 4th house is implicated - it may very well be that MM's absent father unconsciously drove her to pick unavailable men. Again, we're brought back to this powerful Neptune-Saturn-Jupiter/Moon T-square. Here's what Ebertin has to say about this combo:

"Pessimism... the feeling of being abandonned by one's luck... consequences issuing from false hopes, plans which come to nothing, disappointments, losses." (w/Jupiter)

"Pessimism, hopelessness and despair, the tendency to be influenced strongly by the prevailing and temporary circumstances." (w/moon although this is a very loose orb)

Perhaps the T-square was being activated during the time of her suicide?

prudence
14-10-2005, 03:17
Astrid> I've never read of 7th being a death house - do you remember where you read it? Perhaps b/c of the symbolism of the setting sun's horizon?... 8th is most known for death, but 4th is also supposed to indicate where you die, I believe...


I think I googled pluto on the DC, as mine is natally placed here. I will try to do that now, and see if I can track down the site. (This was before you had posted this exercise.)

isthmus nekoi
15-10-2005, 02:41
- Using modern rulers, Mercury is the final depositor of this chart (e.g. Neptune in Leo -> Sun in Gemini -> Mercury in Gemini). Do you think it is important to its interpretation?

- sun/Merc in 10th, Taurus on MC, Venus in 9th trine Neptune, sextile Jupiter. What does this say about MM's public image and her greater role, or calling in society? Do you think she successfully lived out these energies?

- Mars often represents the men in a female's chart. Here Mars is in Pisces/8th, in a very wide water grand trine w/Pluto and Saturn. Typically, the grand trine is viewed as a positive aspect pattern - can you describe how that might not be so in this case?

prudence
15-10-2005, 03:20
- Using modern rulers, Mercury is the final depositor of this chart (e.g. Neptune in Leo -> Sun in Gemini -> Mercury in Gemini). Do you think it is important to its interpretation?

- sun/Merc in 10th, Taurus on MC, Venus in 9th trine Neptune, sextile Jupiter. What does this say about MM's public image and her greater role, or calling in society? Do you think she successfully lived out these energies?

- Mars often represents the men in a female's chart. Here Mars is in Pisces/8th, in a very wide water grand trine w/Pluto and Saturn. Typically, the grand trine is viewed as a positive aspect pattern - can you describe how that might not be so in this case?


I will try! Yikes.

As for her public role, I see it as she was a "piece of meat" in the public eye.(taurus)It was the Taurus MC that made me think it was infact MM's chart, even though I second guessed it in the end. Almost sacrificial too. She was a focus for sexual energies/fantasies, and in the end died due to it.

The grand trine in water there, seems like the men in her life would "drown" her, not wash her in their love (watery emotions).

Very simplistic, I know, but all I am capable of at the moment!

BTW, I tried to google that "death house" stuff and can't trace my steps. When I do google searches like that, they may start a certain way, but they always end up on some tangent that is very far away from the starting point.

dadsnook2000
15-10-2005, 03:44
The 7th house has been known as the "death" house for many hundreds of years, back to antiquity. I'd have to research this but my memory tells me that Cyril Fagan and James Gleadnow (?), who wrote about ancient astrology and its practices by mid-eastern cultures, noted that the 7th angle was associated with dying as this is where the day died. In fact, those cultures often started their new day at sundown, a practice that is carried on today in various religous ceremonies and practices.

For what its worth. Dave

prudence
15-10-2005, 03:53
The 7th house has been known as the "death" house for many hundreds of years, back to antiquity. I'd have to research this but my memory tells me that Cyril Fagan and James Gleadnow (?), who wrote about ancient astrology and its practices by mid-eastern cultures, noted that the 7th angle was associated with dying as this is where the day died. In fact, those cultures often started their new day at sundown, a practice that is carried on today in various religous ceremonies and practices.

For what its worth. Dave

Thanks, Dave!! Yes, you did hit on it! I recall (very fuzzily, as it was a late night thing) that the site I found this in was using older methods and older writings.

isthmus nekoi
16-10-2005, 05:43
Oh wow, the "piece of meat" thing never really occured to me, but now that you put it that way.... what a manifestation of Taurus energy! I would also add that Neptune/Jupiter to Venus probably didn't help - they only inflated MM's body as a sexualized fantasy and eclipsed her intelligent side.