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dantarot
26-10-2005, 19:16
When I study the 7 of swords in tarot I tend to get a rather negative view of trickery and misinformation. The correspondence of the 7 astrologically is moon in aquarius. When I read about the moon in aquaius in astrology I get very positive traits of creative thinking etc. I don't understand why it's one interpretation in tarot and another in astrology. Any thought?

dadsnook2000
26-10-2005, 21:31
Tarot and Astrology are two different systems and any individual factor in either system has a place or context relative to other factors in that system. I find it quite distracting to associate specific cards to specific planets, signs, etc. except as a memory aid to help me remember the nuances of a card. But I personally never bring the meaning of astrological factors into a tarot reading or a tarot card meaning into an interpretation of a astrological chart. Its the oil and water thing with me. Dave

Grigori
27-10-2005, 00:52
I'm just beginning to learn astrology, but am finding the correlations very helpful to me, but I do not think that the 7 Swords is the same at Moon in Aquarius.

The Moon in Aquarius is one of the things that informs the meaning of that card. Some others are Netzach (including Venus) in Yetzirah (Air/Swords), the number 7, the Chariot card, as well as the visual details of the card and the tradition accumulated over time.

I am finding it useful to think of the Moon in Aquarius as the possible strengths of this card, and look elswhere for the cause of its weaknesses.

wizzle
27-10-2005, 01:40
I'd put it this way, the moon, astrologically is big, really big. Big even for an archetype. The 7 of swords is a card and mundane. So the moon in aqarius has many many many possible meanings, among which could be the one traditionally associated with the card. But it also has way more. Also, moon in aquarius in a chart isn't cast in stone in terms of interpretation. It's energies will be more influenced by aspects to the moon and it's placement by house than by sign.

But then, the same can be said for the 7 of swords. If placed between compatible cards, it's meaning shifts from it's rather sneaky side to something like flexibility of ideas or approach.

rainwolf
27-10-2005, 17:31
I think uranus gets too much credit for being weird. And lonely. I have my moon in aquarius and I don't think its very optimistic. It's like trying to combine emotions with a cold shoulder. Emotions and independence don't exactly mix. Others may have their own views however.

dantarot
27-10-2005, 21:32
I think rainwolf's thought about the moon in aquarius is one of the best interpretations I have seen! Having my moon in aquarius (I think in the 8th house), I have read about its meaning for years. All of them fairly "lovey-dovey and idealistic. And as I mentioned when I started this thread, almost all of the views of the 7 of swords in a tarot deck are rather dark and shady. Of course nuance and placement matter. But basically he is a darker side of the magician, both having the yellow background in the rider-waite. I go back and forth between using astrological references as helpful or looking at them as entirely different systems. Right now I see the connections and it has helped me both understand astrology better and tarot. Some cards such as this one are troubling for me. Another one I find an odd identity is the chariot as cancer. I always think of cancers as homebodies, not travelers. The devil as capricorn I can see some connections, but it's not the easiest either. I just ordered an oracle deck, forgot the name, that is made as an astrological card deck. I'm interested how I will find it after using tarot decks for so many years.

star-lover
28-10-2005, 03:29
i thought all the sword cards related to the mind, and the moon is emotion and need so i would have thought 7 of swords if anything would be mercury for instance in a certain sign or aspect if there is any correlation between tarot and astrology
just my humble novice opinion lol
personally i think the 2 systems are too different to be merged

paradoxx
28-10-2005, 07:17
I too have my moon in Aquarius (Idealisim and romantic behaviour is common for me), and the 7 of swords does show that for something to be maintained something might be taken away. Also the term "walking on swords" has been associated with this 7 quite often. (The Cosmic tarot shows a woman walking on a bare field with swords embedded into the ground and the TArot nova shows a rat walking on swords)

The moon in Aquarius is fixed and determined, a steady and fixed wind in the air, a determened cause w/o heistation. Lunar Aquarians are content to just raise the bar at their workplace, it is after all how that job becomes worth more. Once they have been shortfallen though, this placement goes into overdrive, but then ther eis the chance of overexertion. The placement is more complementry to a male than a female (aquarius being a mental sign, the moon being an emotional body.).

As for the chariot being cancer, think of the "vehicle of the mind", also Cancers are very very touchy about their vehicles as they are a part of their attached property and value.

rainwolf
28-10-2005, 08:38
Why thanks dantarot--I've been noticing that moon in my chart lately so I knew just what to say when it came up...that I didnt like it :D When I learned about the tie between cancer and the chariot, I was also confused at first. I realized however, that they both embody a central them--CONTROL, both gaining, keeping, and losing it depending on the context of the card. For the Devil, Capricorns are known as avaricious (sp?), which is what the devil implies, along with other things. I've also noticed that capricorns are very sexual once they start being, well, sexual.

Star lover~ I see what you mean, {moon} being in an ill dignified element (or neutral in tarot), but I think thats what makes it so....7 of swords; its out of place and that makes it the uncomfortable meaning it portrays, simply because of the planet and especially because of its sign.

Paradoxx~Idealism and romantic behavior are a thing with me too; idealism being a not-so-wanted trait.

Jai1216
16-09-2013, 09:19
7 of Swords is Moon in Aquarius. I am discovering more about astrology, so this is my take on it. The astrological attribution seems to fit to me.

Aquarius is about the transmission of knowledge. The Moon is about hidden aspects . . . I see exactly how they correlate. 7 of Swords is about hidden knowledge, deception, etc.

Ronia
16-09-2013, 10:19
And a major like the Chariot *can not* be simply about travelling, ever. And Cancerians are not mainly *homebodies*. The Chariot is about control over differing emotions and powers and victory, and recognition. This is Cesar coming back with a laurel wreath! And Cancer is ruled by the Moon, emotions, public.

No one can be seduced and caught in a dirty deal (Devil) if they don't have *ambition* to be satisfied. Capricorn.

And so on. Tarot has astrology in it as many other things. I don't know what they write in tarot books these days but instead of any of them, I strongly suggest a couple of university courses, namely in the arts field, including religion, ethymology, ethnology and literature, preferably ancient.

P.S. 7 of Swords is an excellent card in diplomacy, job hunting, job getting, secrecy, investigations, research, etc. It's *clever*. It's *smart*. Innovative even. But it achieves things.

ravenest
17-09-2013, 08:22
When I study the 7 of swords in tarot I tend to get a rather negative view of trickery and misinformation. The correspondence of the 7 astrologically is moon in aquarius. When I read about the moon in aquaius in astrology I get very positive traits of creative thinking etc. I don't understand why it's one interpretation in tarot and another in astrology. Any thought?

Yes ... It is one interpretation in tarot and one in astrology because misinformation is out there. The misinformation is:

If you look deeper it isn't actually the astrological concept of 'Moon IN Aquarius', in some decks (Golden Dawn, Thoth, etc) minor cards are related to decans (10 deg segments of the ecliptic) ... each decan was annoted with a planetary symbol ... and that isn't the same as a planet in a sign. Although this has morphed into this modern meaning.

Its quiet common in deeper, esoteric or hermetic tarot to relate cards and astrology ... it works like an 'emulsion' (where water and oil are mixed), instead of seeing it as a distraction it can help to give clarity (like studying Cabbalah and associating that with cards). It is an holistic viewpoint and not a' seperationalist' one (Hermetics achieves greater vision and understanding by holistic methods ... everything is related to each other : as above so below)

So lets look at some 'astrotarot' correlations and the decan influence.

So, 3 main things then; the decan , a 7 and the Moon. Both are ‘weak’ energies and relate to the soluble, dissolving nature of Venus and that of the Moon (due to its relationship with Water).

The Moon is not altogether weak, it has a subtle and irresistible ‘persuasion’ ( like water) and can have strong influence through the unconscious and subtle realms. It could further the Aquarius energy and lead it along but the Moon can relate (in the gross world) to ‘delusion’, illusion, distorted reflection and influences effected by the deep unconscious and emotions. That coupled with the Aquarian ‘un-grounded’ aspiration and vision, with no other practical and grounding influences doesn’t seem to make a good combination.

Further; we still have the original Venus/Aquarius problem (as it is a 7 ), now it is coupled with the Moon. In the five the Venus/Aquarius energy was coupled with Mars (as it is a 5) and that provided some direction and energy (but no grounding to the Aquarian vision), however it can provide the energy to ‘put up a fight’ – but it led to defeat.
Here, in the 7, that Mars energy is absent, Moon and Venus are ‘weak’; the title is Futility, not only will one be defeated, as in the 5, here, one should not really be bothered to put up a fight in the first place … it would be futile (its tityle in the Thoth deck - futility.

Often we get these swords ( i.e. a negative mental state … in the mind = a sword.) ; these negative states of consciousness, arising to subvert our aspirations. It’s a bad way of thinking and can disrupt an aspiration … one can get past the influence of The Moon and Venus here, but first one has to sort out this mental state that brings the idea of futility in the first place.

The Moon has cycles and rhythms and pulses, many of them, about 6 major ones to start with. It moves quickly too, from one state to another; the Sun spends a month in each sign, the Moon 2 days (approx.) , the Moon’s seasons (inclinations) are again swifter than the Sun, and of course, the most obvious, the phases. All these cycles and patterns and influences can complicate the lack of grounding that is needed here.
When we translate this onto the mental plane … and it all goes on in our heads … that is what makes it futile. Those many cycles of the Moon, all those swords ( 7 ) take us a very long way from the purity of the Ace of Swords and the still, meditative mind.
So much going on in the head … and so many variant ideas clamouring for attention … and mostly negative!

Looking at the Thoth 7 of swords:

The Sun (handled) sword is trying, it has aspiration … it has vision … it is the symbol of the essential self and its expression through the mind, it stands upright. But the weak influences don’t support the Sun King, the mind has split into factions. conflicting clamourings and doubts. Here, the gifts given to the mind by the planets, instead of working in unison with the Sun have split off and started to manifest as ‘demons’ … concepts and complexes within us that start to develop their own ‘identity’ (daemonic becoming ‘demonic’ … sense of importance separate from the whole).

The Solar sword stands upright, it handle on the vision of Aquarius, directing the vision, it points at the Moon, ‘charging’ the Moon, conjoining it with the Sun (the Great Operation; Sun Moon conjoined). But the uncontrolled mind is casting doubts represented by the sword handles;

Saturn, Mercury, Jupiter, Mars and Venus. The Sun / Moon sword make up the 7 planets. But that only gives 6 swords, hence the 7th sword with the unusual, unidentified (?) ‘unknown’ symbol.

The sort of thoughts (doubts) these swords can generate are;

Saturn; it ( the project, idea, enterprise, undertaking, etc.) is too hard, it will require too much discipline and organisation and focus, I will be restricted from doing other things.

Mercury; it’s too much to work out, I don’t have the network or the communication skills, it’s all going too quick, by the time I work something out it will have changed into something else.

Jupiter; It’s too large, too big, growing all the time, I can’t get a handle on it.

Mars; I don’t have the energy anyway, it will require a lot of energy and direction to see it through, I feel burnt out already.

Venus; I don’t really even care about it, deep down I don’t have passion for it, I am not fixated or entranced by it.

And the mysterious symbol (the north and south nodes of the Moon?); There is an element here that I don’t understand, I am going into new and unfamiliar territory, it’s all different and will not be like I am used to.

When they all work in opposition we see the Sun / Moon sword is shattered, the project not only fails, it doesn’t even get off the ground.

Because of the mind. … the untrained or unfocused mind. All these parts of the mind (planets) should be working in unison, all those swords should be pointing at the Moon and assisting the Sun sword. Why aren’t they?

Because, like the general nature of the mind, they have not been appeased. Just as we need to appease the mind (to take its place in the 3rd elemental position) we need to appease the ‘gifts’ or qualities of the mind. These are represented by the planets.

The Hermetic texts outline a system whereby an incarnating soul approaches earth, it picks up cosmic influences (relating to its natal stellar makeup) and passes through spheres surrounding the earth for each planet and there it is given the gifts and qualitied of each planet to use in life, lastly the person incarnates on earth. We need to use these qualities in life, and also triumph over their negative manifestations – the Hermeticists saw this as passing up through the spheres and finally breaking their way out the last sphere into a type of ‘cosmic consciousness’ or level of perception.

The Sufis say to really understand something we need to understand it, not from both sides but from 7 sides. With the qualities of the 7 planets. These are gifts we are given and should use as parts of the mind - in the sword realm ( the 7 gifts or assistants operate in the other elemental levels and suits as well). If they are not appeased or considered they will throw up doubts and not join in with the overall mind. To appease or consider them is to assist them to come to unified decision in their own level, then they will willingly join in and point with the sword of the magician, and not against it.

The G.D. title is The Lord of Unstable Effort. That seems to describe the process as well.
This card is the 3rd decan of Aquarius;

Here are some classical descriptions of that decan

• Ibn Ezra: And angry and deceitful black man who has hair in his ear, and on him a crown from the leaves of a tree, and he turns from place to place.

• Picatrix: A man with his head shortened [cut off?] and who has an old woman with him. And this is a face of abundance, of the perfection of the will, and of insulting behaviour.

• Agrippa: A black and angry man; and the signification of this is in expressing insolence, and imprudence.

The Vedic image of the decan describes a dark man cooking up herbs and medicines in a pot, but he keeps continually changing the recipe. An image of the unfocused mind or plan of action where the smaller planetary swords take over and change the operation.

I don’t see any great difficulty with the energy in this card. After analysis, the remedy is also offered.

A bit of meditation brings it to light.

Often if I get stuck interpreting the WHY of a card I look at the stars within the section of the sign (decan) that the card relates to, as I believe these stars originally gave the influence to the decan.

The Stella influences;

I can’t find a real significant star in this section of the sign, one in the decan is Situla.
There does not seem to be further significant stars in this decan of Aquarius, the ones there are not listed as having significant influence in the old astrology, however there is one on the same longitude outside of Aquarius (which can therefore give influence); Scheat

According to Ptolemy Scheat is of the nature of Mars and Mercury; to Simmonite, of Saturn; to other authors, of Saturn and Mercury; and, to Alvidas, of Neptune in square to Saturn or Mars. It causes extreme misfortune, murder, suicide, and drowning. [Robson*, p.206.]
Tied up with 'malefics', this could lead the native to lose his life in catastrophes, such as floods, shipwreck, mining accidents, airplane accidents, or maybe suicide. On the other hand, it is possible for a positive influence to emanate from Scheat, but only for some people, it can have a positive effect on their mental creativity, if these people are ready to receive such inflow [Fixed Stars and Their Interpretation, Elsbeth Ebertin, 1928, p.82.] (my emphasis)

With a malefic and the moon with Sirius (29 Leo), death by fiery cutting weapons or by beasts. If the Moon be with Vega (14 Capricorn), violent death. [Robson, p.206.]
With Sun: Danger through water and engines, liable to accidents or drowning. [Robson*, p.206.]

With Moon: Worry, loss and gain of friends through criticism, danger of accidents and by water. [Robson, p.206.]

With Mercury: Many accidents and narrow escapes especially by water, many enemies, trouble through writings, bad for health and domestic affairs. [Robson, p.206.]
With Venus: Evil environment, suffering through own acts, danger of imprisonment or restraint. [Robson, p.207.]

With Mars: Many accidents, sickness to native and relatives. [Robson, p.207.]

With Jupiter: Many voyages, losses through law, friends and relatives, danger of imprisonment. [Robson, p.207.]

With Saturn: Danger of death in infancy, domestic trouble, colds and consumption, death by drowning or accident. [Robson, p.207.]

(Here is seen a similar negative influence of each planet, similar to what we examined above,yet, as also outlined above there is a way to remedy it with correct operation of the mind or “ it is possible for a positive influence to emanate from Scheat, but only for some people, it can have a positive effect on their mental creativity" .)

I think in many case above we can see why the card has come to have the energy associated with it. You wont get that from a mundane interpretation of the decan annotation ( a planet sign and a zodiac sign) that has morphed into an astrological planet IN sign association because it was never meant to represent that (although in some cases this association seems to work - where the planet IN sign influence corresponds to the decan influence).

metareiki
24-02-2014, 04:31
Thank you for the wonderful discussion about this card. I understand the "unknown" symbol on the 6th small sword, and sometimes see this myself as the Vesica Pisces or Mandorla - representing creativity or creation. As Futility, "I don't have the creative energy/I'm not creative enough to think about it."

But what is the symbol around the main sword? - not the sun which is on the handle, but the rings that surround the base of the blade. I haven't found any mention of it in my research. What am I missing? Ideas?

Thanks

Cor serpentis
09-03-2014, 12:34
I think that after Ravenests explanation about connection between decans or "faces" and pip cards isn't much left to say :) 36 pip cards (also as some Majors, eg I really can't see connection between Pope and Taurus, Chariot and Cancer - it refers to major and basic meaning of the cards and astrological meanings of zodiacal signs) are connected with 36 zodiacal decans, and there are 2 or 3 different "versions" of that decans (Chaldean version is used in tarot), so as interpretations of each of them. Ravenest minutely explained that.

If you reflect more deeply, you might conclude quite same - many of "astrological connections" hasn't sense when you try to apply "astrological name" and its literally meaning to meanings of some card. Eg, what Venus in Aquarius has to do with 5 of swords, Mars in Pisces with 10 of Cups or Moon in Sagittarius with 9 of Wands? In my opinion - nothing. When I started to study tarot (I've already "been in astrology" for some time) that connections immediately confused me and I searched for explanation. Then I found that eg 2 of pents has hotnihg to do with astrological meaning of Jupter in Capricorn, but that is just decan for that card. Leading advice of one friend who uses tarot longer than me, but has her own way of interpretation of cards which is different than mine in many ways, for some time I tried to use that zodiacal connections to determine time of outcome (or some major event) for the question in hand. But soon I (again) foud that neither that approach doesn't work for me. 'Cause all of that, I established my own astrological explanations and connections with my cards, but only when it's needed. I don't think that will work for someone else, but I will state my opinion, hoping that maybe can be usefull clue for someone. To shorten my writing, I'll quote part of one of my post, I hope it will be (at leat part of) pith of few of my last sentences:
I believe that we establishing some kind of connnection with our decks and because of that our energy project our thouhts, desires, worries and so on, so reading tells us right that what we wish, worry about etc...

***

...our personal energy and „language“ which we using to „speak“ with our decks...


Regards,
Cor :)