Elemental Dignities and the Majors

[thinbuddha]

So I keep looking and looking into elemental dignities, and I can't seem to get a straight answer as to how to attribute the Majors. Basically, what I'm hearing is that I should apply the elements as they are applied in astrology.....

guess what?

I don't know anything about astrology!

(help!)

[rainwolf]

That's where learning a bit of astrology comes in ;)

There is also kaballah in thoth too, but that isn't brought up as much; is it unimportant? No, but people don't really want to learn it because its complex. Can you read without it? Yes, but if you take the time to study it, it will make readings more insightful.

So maybe you don't want to learn about the astrology because it would take too much time....well after a while, you will have the basics of tarot down, and to fill your "tarot time gap", you will want to learn a different area as to improve on the other. So is this case.

I'm guessing you have a basic understanding of elemental dignities, so I'll just type out attributions.

Fool--uranus, air
Mag--mercury, air
HP--moon, water
Empre--venus, air
Emper--aries, fire
Hier--taurus, earth
Lover--gemini, air
Char--cancer, water
Adjust--libra, air
Hermit--virgo, earth
Wheel--jupiter, fire
Lust--leo, fire
Hang--neptune, water
Death--scorpio, water
Temp--sagittarius, fire
Dev--capricorn, earth
Tow--mars, fire
Star--aquarius, air
Moon--pisces, water
Sun--sun, fire
Aeon--pluto, water/fire
World--saturn, earth

To remember this, the Thoth deck has the illustrations of the planets and signs on the cards, and I believe they are on the majors too as a quick reference. For instance, the hierophant is seated on a bull, taurus.

[Grigori]

I always thought of Venus as Earth, I guess cause of my history with the RWS and Mythic with Empress = Ceres etc. Is Venus ever thought of as Earth in astrology because she rules Taurus as well as Libra, or am I just making it up to suit my ignorance about astrology things? :D

For the Aeon in the Thoth, I would go with fire rather than water. Crowey doesn't actually include the modern planets (even though they fit very well as given by Rainwolf, and I like to think of them). Instead the Fool (air), Hanged Man (water) and Judgement (fire) are attributed to the pure element (as mother letters in the Hebrew letter, they are different than the others).

The scene depicted on the Aeon card in from the Stele of Revealing, which for Crowley signified the destruction of the world by fire; i.e. the New Aeon, which is the basis of his thelema philosophy, and the reason a totally different design was needed than the previous one based on Revelations.

One of the really cool things in the Thoth and other similar decks, is that the qabalah is a mediator between the cards and the astrology. If you learn a little bit about one of them, you'll realise you accidentally learned a bit about the other also :)

[thinbuddha]

It's funny- my confusion initially came with Venus- The Empress. I have a book that says water, a website (that the author of the book operates) that says Earth.... and now air..... Do I hear Fire, anyone?

Actually, I thought that it prettymuch would have to be a passive element from what I know about the card, so I was surprised to see you say air....

[rainwolf]

I always thought of Venus as Earth, I guess cause of my history with the RWS and Mythic with Empress = Ceres etc. Is Venus ever thought of as Earth in astrology because she rules Taurus as well as Libra, or am I just making it up to suit my ignorance about astrology things? :D
It might be, I was kinda using intuition because of past experience with venus. It might be both since earth and air are polar and venus sometimes behaves like that....? Probably more earth.

For the Aeon in the Thoth, I would go with fire rather than water. Crowey doesn't actually include the modern planets (even though they fit very well as given by Rainwolf, and I like to think of them). Instead the Fool (air), Hanged Man (water) and Judgement (fire) are attributed to the pure element (as mother letters in the Hebrew letter, they are different than the others). Yes I have those in my notes :D I always wondered why I had two things next to the hanged man. The important thing is that of their element.

The scene depicted on the Aeon card in from the Stele of Revealing, which for Crowley signified the destruction of the world by fire; i.e. the New Aeon, which is the basis of his thelema philosophy, and the reason a totally different design was needed than the previous one based on Revelations.

One of the really cool things in the Thoth and other similar decks, is that the qabalah is a mediator between the cards and the astrology. If you learn a little bit about one of them, you'll realise you accidentally learned a bit about the other also :)
Isn't that great :D :laugh:

[Grigori]

It might be, I was kinda using intuition because of past experience with venus. It might be both since earth and air are polar and venus sometimes behaves like that....? Probably more earth.


Thanks RW! It occured to me after posting that Earth and Air are opposites, so the poor Empress/Venus could be a bit conflicted. I guess then a bit of Libra would really help her out. Oh! and I just remembered your old user title, which would explain why you prefer Air to Earth for Venus. :D

It's funny- my confusion initially came with Venus- The Empress. I have a book that says water, a website (that the author of the book operates) that says Earth.... and now air..... Do I hear Fire, anyone?

Maybe they choose Water based on the relationship between mother and water. Although I think the High Priestess fits that part of the achetype better than the Empress. The Empress is the alchemical trump for salt however, so she is also tied into the water/ocean/mother themes.

[rainwolf]

LOL yes I certainly do crush on libras! LOL Free Flight PM'd me about that a few days ago :laugh:

Venus is attributed to libra AND taurus, so there is a little earth, and a little air in there. Libra takes the social part of venus, and taurus takes the pleasure and lazy part of venus. What I should really do is link the hierophant to venus also, as there is some of that in that card also.

Venus is high maintainance also....that might relate to the Empress POSSIBLY because she is sitting on satin/velvet/silk and eating. She's also knocked up in some decks I might add....and she's not even exercising!

So:
Empress--venus-->air/earth-->neutral around fire and water, negative around air/earth (2 drama queens/high maintainance freaks cant get along together!)

Hierophant--Taurus-->venus-->earth

[Grigori]

So:
Empress--venus-->air/earth-->neutral around fire and water, negative around air/earth (2 drama queens/high maintainance freaks cant get along together!)

Hierophant--Taurus-->venus-->earth

Oh I like that a lot!

I sat down on my bed the other day and layed out the cards in their astrological rulerships. It was so interesting and helpful for a non astrolger to think in terms of Empress rules Heirophant, High Priestess is Exhalted in Heirophant etc. Maybe it will be helpful to you thinbuddha to try the same. The combinations were very revealing, and a little removed (at least in appearance) from the scary web of astrology :D

Fool rules the Star
Magician rules The Lovers and The Hermit
High Priestess rules The Chariot
The Empress rules The Heirophant and Adjustment
Wheel of Fortune rules Art
The Hanged Man rules the Moon
The Tower rules The Emperor
The Sun rules Lust
The Aeon rules Death
The Universe rules The Devil

[thinbuddha]

Maybe it will be helpful to you thinbuddha to try the same. The combinations were very revealing, and a little removed (at least in appearance) from the scary web of astrology :D

Hmmmm--- What exactly does it mean when you say the Empress "rules" the Heirophant? How would one apply that to a reading? The scary web of astrology is, I know, something I'll have to tangle with at soem point or another....

[Grigori]

Hmmmm--- What exactly does it mean when you say the Empress "rules" the Heirophant? How would one apply that to a reading? The scary web of astrology is, I know, something I'll have to tangle with at soem point or another....

Sorry, I used an astrolgy word :(

Think of it like they are very similiar, and are about the same sort of things.

For example: The Empress (venus)is similiar to Adjustment (libra) because they both like balance and harmony and relationships. The Empress (venus) is also similiar to The Heirophant (taurus) because they both like nice things to pamper themselves with, are kinda lazy etc..

The best thing IMO, is look at the pairs and see what they have in common or how the re-inforce or complement each other. You will also notice that the cards are the same element as each other (with the exception of Empress/venus and Magician/mercury who have two signs each).

e.g. From Rainwolfs list:
Lust (Leo) = Fire
The Sun (sun) = Fire
The Sun/sun rules Leo/Lust and they are similar and you could apply the same ideas for working out dignities with both cards.

Then you may wonder why the children in the Sun card are so happy, and you realise they are thinking about what is happening on the Lust card (and then you should send them to detention for being dirty little children :D )

[thinbuddha]

So- would saying that "The Empress rules The Heirophant" be a different thing than saying "The Heirophant rules The Empress"? From your description, it seems that these two statements are interchangable(?)

[Grigori]

So- would saying that "The Empress rules The Heirophant" be a different thing than saying "The Heirophant rules The Empress"? From your description, it seems that these two statements are interchangable(?)

Well I think the general approach is that the planet rules the sign (in this case The Empress/the planet Venus, rules The Heirophant and Adjustement/the signs Taurus and Libra.

Venus is not the same as Taurus or Libra, so they are not 100% interchangable, but they are very cloesly related so you can think of them together often. I don't know enough about astrolgy to comment more, but hopefully RW will be back soon. My theory is that as the planets are a mobile object and the signs are a passive area of space, the planets may be seen as superior.

[rainwolf]

OK, here's my little rendition on it:

We've got the planet Venus. She likes to lay around, talk, and she also likes to look nice too.

Now lets take the signs Taurus and Libra. Taurus is known to like idleness (and is easy to please, ie: shimmering stuff gets their attention :laugh:). Libra likes to socialize and look perfect.

When we say rules, we mean that one has power over the other. In astrology, planets represent various energies, and the astrological signs are how the energy is displayed. (You will just have to remember this, there is no way around it)

Now lets put it together. The planet venus (lets say) gives these signs their characteristics. Therefore it "rules" them by controling what their characteristics are.


Now lets apply it.

The Empress is seen to behave like venus (by crowley).

The Hierophant is seen to like structure and orthodoxy like taurus (also described by crowley)

Finally, Adjustment/Justice is seen to be fair and sometimes indecisive like Libra.

So what describes what? Well as said above, venus makes up both of these characteristics. Therefore we say The Empress (venus) RULES The hierophant (taurus) and Adjustment (libra).

Now that you know this system, you can also apply it (if you wish).

Sun RULES leo
Mercury RULES virgo and gemini
Venus RULES libra and taurus
Moon RULES cancer
Mars RULES aries and scorpio
Jupiter RULES sagittarius and pisces
Saturn RULES capricorn and aquarius
Uranus RULES aquarius
Neptune RULES pisces
Pluto RULES pluto and aries

**I forgot hermit on the list above of correspondances :|
Hermit--virgo, earth

If you want to make your reading really, really technical (for future reference) then you can apply some other words that describe the same action as RULES such as FALL, DETRIMENT, and EXALTED.

[thinbuddha]

OK thanks- I'm still not quite understanding all of it, but I am moving in that direction.

[rainwolf]

Which part do you not understand? I'm sure if you know which part you are confused about I can explain it again in a simpler version.

[Sophie]

Nowhere in The Book of Thoth (or in Lon Milo DuQuette, for that matter) do I see mention of Uranus, Pluto & Neptune. They are not (of course) in the Sepher Yetzirah. So why is there mention of them at all in relation to the Thoth? :confused: And if it is an attempt to update the Thoth - on what basis were these new planet attributions made?

For other discussion points - Crowley attributed XX-Aeon to Primal Fire. The Empress represents the alchemical element& principle of Salt - which must be energised by Sulfur (represented by the next Atu, The Emperor). My understanding is that Salt is an Earth element.

[thinbuddha]

I guess what it comes down to is that I don't know how to apply this knowledge to a reading.

So how would it work if both the Empress and the Heirophant (for example) show up in a thread? How would the meaning of either card be different if the other was not present.

Since Emp "rules" Heiro..... I would expect to see a difference in the reading of the Heirophant card with both present. But what would that difference be? Would the Heirophants qualities that are most like the Empress be amplified while other (less Empressy) qualities are muted?

or.....

[rainwolf]

Haha I think that is one part that we should've included right away thinbuddah, sorry about that.

Ill Dignified (not-so-good):


*Water next to fire
*Air next to earth
*Anything next to its detriment (empress--death (venus-scorpio))
*Anything next to its fall is slightly ill dignified


Neutral (doesn't matter, or may amplipfy another card)

*Water next to air or earth
*Fire next to air or earth


Well Dignified (strengthens meaning)

*Any element next to its own
*Anything next to it's ruler(empress--hierophant)
*Anything next to its exalted

[Grigori]

Nowhere in The Book of Thoth (or in Lon Milo DuQuette, for that matter) do I see mention of Uranus, Pluto & Neptune.

Actually Crowley and Duquette both refer to the modern planets. Crowley added them to tables in the Book of Thoth as well as in Magick, where earlier (in Liber 777) they were not included. There is a quote on pg 277 of the book of Thoth about how they perfect the tenfold system of the sephiroth and its relation to ceremonial magick, followed by charts. From the timeline I'd thoerize their inclusion in thelemic magick was a work still in progress.

Duquette refers to them brieflly in his discussion of the qabalah also.


And if it is an attempt to update the Thoth - on what basis were these new planet attributions made?

Of course neither of them go so far as to link the modern planets with the three mother letters/elemental trumps. This is commonly done with GD based decks however, and the attributions RW gave are the typical ones. I don't think there is an attempt to update the thoth, but rather to update the tarot tradition started by the GD, which may then be applied to the Thoth (being the most perfect example of that tradition updated :D ) I think the interpration of the cards and the planets support it very well also.

Uranus as the ruler of Aquarius goes ideally with the Air-Fool, and the element is consistent. The myth of Ouranos also fits rather well with the Fool.

Neptune as the ruler of Pisces also fits very well with the Water-Hanged Man and the element is consistent.

Pluto would be the exception to the rule, attributed to the Fire trump Aeon, but ruling the water sign Scorpio. The meanings of Pluto support its application to the Aeon card very well though. Scorpios tradition rularship of Mars recognises the firey aspect of Scorpio, and I think would explain the association of Aeon to the water element made, although I would not agree with that one personally for the reasons you outlined.

The Empress represents the alchemical element& principle of Salt - which must be energised by Sulfur (represented by the next Atu, The Emperor). My understanding is that Salt is an Earth element.

The Empress attribution of Venus would justify relating her to Air (via it's rulership of Libra), which is also fitting with the position of Daleth/Libra/Adjustment communicating between Chockman (Knight) and Binah (Queen). I prefer to think of her as Earth, although I can see strong connections with water also, given the relationship of Water/Mother/Salt. Crowley also references both these elements in his discussion of The Empress along with Earth.

From the earlier part of this thread, I had been contemplating the difference between the separation of the qualities of "women" in the trumps II and III, compared to the separation applied to "men" in trumps I and IV. I haven't decided yet how I think about it, but it has been interesting to think about. Of course the argument from Helvetica that we should be bound by the rules of our dead patriachal founder is an intersting one to contemplate in itself ;)

[rainwolf]

Pluto would be the exception to the rule, attributed to the Fire trump Aeon, but ruling the water sign Scorpio. The meanings of Pluto support its application to the Aeon card very well though. Scorpios tradition rularship of Mars recognises the firey aspect of Scorpio, and I think would explain the association of Aeon to the water element made, although I would not agree with that one personally for the reasons you outlined.
Actually I don't think this is an exception either. Scorpio and Aries have dual planets mars and pluto. Mars is mainly aries, and pluto is mainly scorpio, but they both have some influence on the other.

So even thought aeon is a fire trump, attributed to pluto, pluto has ties to both fire and water so aeon is therefore fire. However since it IS pluto, this tie is relatively weak if instead it was attributed to mars. However, the tower (IMO) satisfactorily relates to mars.

Thanks for citing that similia, I have yet to read all of The Book of Thoth :)

[Sophie]

Thanks for taking the time to answer my crotchety old maidish questions, Similia ;)

Actually Crowley and Duquette both refer to the modern planets. Crowley added them to tables in the Book of Thoth as well as in Magick, where earlier (in Liber 777) they were not included. There is a quote on pg 277 of the book of Thoth about how they perfect the tenfold system of the sephiroth and its relation to ceremonial magick, followed by charts. Yep - found it, thanks! Very passing glance - do you think he was still working on that new system when he died?


Of course neither of them go so far as to link the modern planets with the three mother letters/elemental trumps. This is commonly done with GD based decks however, and the attributions RW gave are the typical ones. Commonly done by whom? Who started it? On what basis?

I don't think there is an attempt to update the thoth, but rather to update the tarot tradition started by the GD, which may then be applied to the Thoth (being the most perfect example of that tradition updated :D ) I think the interpration of the cards and the planets support it very well also. Well, if justified. But where are they justified? I'm not saying it ain't so..simply, I want to see the discussions & logic behind the evolution.

Uranus as the ruler of Aquarius goes ideally with the Air-Fool, and the element is consistent. The myth of Ouranos also fits rather well with the Fool. It does have merit - at least, from my superficial knowledge of astrology I can see that. From my rather less superficial knowledge of myth I see merit but also problems. But I would like to see, for instance, a discussion of aleph/Uranus. Of the possibility of linking the whole notion of Ain Soph with Uranus. Does it exist? As I said, I see there would be bridges...but I'd like to understand their engineering ;)

Neptune as the ruler of Pisces also fits very well with the Water-Hanged Man and the element is consistent. Yes. That I can see for the water - I am less convinced about the mythic resonance of Neptune in this card when set next to the Dying God - but then I was never much convinced about the astrological descriptions I read of Neptune when compared to the complex, violent & primeval sea god.

Pluto would be the exception to the rule, attributed to the Fire trump Aeon, but ruling the water sign Scorpio. The meanings of Pluto support its application to the Aeon card very well though. I think I have most trouble with that card - conceptually. Still trying to wrap my mind around it. But yes, the idea of death/rebirth fits Pluto very well.

It's always been strange to me to understand Scorpio as a water sign, its emblems being the scorpion, the snake and the eagle, neither of which are water animals (well, there are water-snakes).

Scorpio's tradition rularship of Mars recognises the firey aspect of Scorpio, and I think would explain the association of Aeon to the water element made, although I would not agree with that one personally for the reasons you outlined. Yes, I can see the Mars-Pluto-Scorpio association. I think the real problem is the attribution of Scorpio to water, which fits symmetrically, but does not fit either of its ruling planet attribution...although there is an old mythopoetic tradition that links death and water.

The Empress attribution of Venus would justify relating her to Air (via it's rulership of Libra), which is also fitting with the position of Daleth/Libra/Adjustment communicating between Chockman (Knight) and Binah (Queen). I prefer to think of her as Earth, although I can see strong connections with water also, given the relationship of Water/Mother/Salt. Crowley also references both these elements in his discussion of The Empress along with Earth. Yes, I saw that. The elemental quicksilver (mercury) was the one I always associated to water, since in alchemical lore it is said to originate on the moon (mother as well), and is said to take the shape of a half woman, half-water-serpent during transformation (as per Paracelsus). Salt is a very earthy element in alchemy. But Crowley always likes to take things at a tangeant, which makes his discussions so worthwhile!

From the earlier part of this thread, I had been contemplating the difference between the separation of the qualities of "women" in the trumps II and III, compared to the separation applied to "men" in trumps I and IV. I haven't decided yet how I think about it, but it has been interesting to think about. Of course the argument from Helvetica that we should be bound by the rules of our dead patriachal founder is an intersting one to contemplate in itself ;)LOL at the idea of Uncle Al as a dead Patriarch. I say simply - if we take the Thoth further in the Uranian fashion - and I'm all for evolution! - then let's take a leaf out of our Aquarian friends' books, and explain - be ready to back-up new attributions with logic as well as imagination ;)

Empress as Air is not that strange to me, actually, since in the Marseille tradition the Empress is the intellectual creative, who brings forth out of her mind as much as her body. And the colours of the card are not very earthy!

[Grigori]

Crotchety but not old maidish ;)

Yep - found it, thanks! Very passing glance - do you think he was still working on that new system when he died?

Although Pluto (as the last of the modern planets in this discussion at least) was discovered in 1930, none of the modern planets were considered very much in astrology till after WWII. So we have about 10years of scientific consideration of Pluto before The Book of Thoth, but none of the 3 planets were really brought into astrology/magick until after the Book of Thoth.

My feeling based on no actual fact, is that if the Book of Thoth was written 20 years later, Crowley would agree with their inclusion, largely due to his love of a perfectly balanced system. Logically I can only say that Crowley didn't really have time to consider them in a significant way, and I have been told that his knowledge on astrology was not his strongest point.

What I can find on the topic seems to imply that Pluto was not seriously considered until the 70's by astrologers, another 20 years later. I'd love to hear more from anyone who can say more on the timeline in astrology...

Given that there was little information magickally on the three planets at the time of Crowley, I assume that his incorporating them into magick or the tarot at all is somewhat revolutionary, and I think you may be asking too much of him to have written more at that time.

Commonly done by whom? Who started it? On what basis?!

The only book I have on the topic is Hazel's Tarot Decoded. She has the same system, but cites it as her own suggestions (and also falsley atribute the same ideas to Crowley from the Book of Thoth). It was published in 2004 so is very recent. Jonathon Dee (Tarot Mysteries 2003) suggests the modern planets were included into Tarot in the 80's but does not cite where he gets the date from, nor who may have started the tradition. I've read them elswhere but forget where. Lets hope someone knows and speaks up.

On a side note, I noticed in the Celestial Tarot my friend just purchased, the moderns have also been included in the minors (very differently than the GD structure). Unfortunately the LWB does not highlight the creators reasons for doing so, nor could I spot a system or correlation with the tradition meanings in GD derived decks.

It does have merit - at least, from my superficial knowledge of astrology I can see that. From my rather less superficial knowledge of myth I see merit but also problems. But I would like to see, for instance, a discussion of aleph/Uranus. Of the possibility of linking the whole notion of Ain Soph with Uranus. Does it exist? As I said, I see there would be bridges...but I'd like to understand their engineering ;)

I would like to see the same. The relationship of Aleph to Air/Fool has been rather well argued by Kwaw recently and I could do no better and shall not try :D A peeve of mine with those who argue against the merits of the GD system is that they typically consider the Qabalah removed from the Astrology, or the reverse. Considering the two simultaneously answers many of their questions in my mind. Perhaps also in this case you may consider the Fool the mediator between the two for some satisfaction on the topic.

The rather interesting thing that Crowley says, is the inclusion of the modern 3 planets perfects the TENfold system of the Qabalah. But if we include the three moderns in addition to the 8 planets already present we have 11...

My first thought was to assign Uranus to the veils, and given the depicition of them on the Fool card in the Thoth it is justified IMO. I have discussed often with Wizzle her ideas of Uranus as Daath, which also bears much merit. From the Fool card this could also be visualised from the cups in the fools hands (Fire in the place of Chokmah, water in the Place of Binah (if we consider the Fool himself as Daath, and the sepiroth's relation to the Knight and Queen as Fire and Water). That leaves us with a crocodile for Geburah (perhaps..) and a tiger for Chesed (no clue on that one...)

Yes. That I can see for the water - I am less convinced about the mythic resonance of Neptune in this card when set next to the Dying God - but then I was never much convinced about the astrological descriptions I read of Neptune when compared to the complex, violent & primeval sea god.

Yes, I agree that the mythology of Neptune does not fit very well with the Hanged Man, nor with the planet astrologically either. The Hanged Man does fit very well with The Moon/Pisces however.

But yes, the idea of death/rebirth fits Pluto very well.

From my readings today it seem that in the 70's even though Pluto was acknowledged as the ruler of Scorpio, Mars was more often considered by most astrologers. Even today it seems Mars may be considered the day-to-day ruler of Scorpio, and Pluto its spiritual ruler. Perhaps Mars rules the scorpion, and Pluto rules the eagle :D

The very interesting thing to ponder, is that Aeon, the Fire Trump, shows us the key characters according to Crowley of the new Aeon, which is the Aeon of Fire. If Crowley was designing another deck for the next Aeon (not fire) would it retain the attribute of Fire in his mind?... Curious minds would like to know that!

It's always been strange to me to understand Scorpio as a water sign, its emblems being the scorpion, the snake and the eagle, neither of which are water animals (well, there are water-snakes).

Yeah me too, not to start on The Star as an Air sign :laugh: The image of Death/Scorpio underwater in the Thoth is a handy one for me when thinking about the issue, and would tie in with your own observed tradition. Also the function of the Death card in Alchemy combines both heat and damp which is useful to me to consider.


if we take the Thoth further in the Uranian fashion - and I'm all for evolution! - then let's take a leaf out of our Aquarian friends' books, and explain - be ready to back-up new attributions with logic as well as imagination ;)

Actually one of my other pet peeves in tarot books is the complete lack of referencing in most texts. Another thing to rather love Duquette for providing amply, and often with commentary ((((Lon))))

I do however think that imagination is rather of more validity than logic when it comes to divination, but that is perhaps a different thread :D The inclusion of the moderns is resonant for me, and that is more important to me than anything else. If we only used things is tarot we can find the staring point for, we'd all be reading tea leaves after all :D

Empress as Air is not that strange to me, actually, since in the Marseille tradition the Empress is the intellectual creative, who brings forth out of her mind as much as her body. And the colours of the card are not very earthy!

This card looks rather watery to me really and not much of Air or Earth. There is a strong tradition in Homeopathy to associate Chloride with Mother, which resonates with me obviously. Also the older name of chloride (Muriaticum) provides yet another M word associated with both mother and water, and supports the argument of Mem=Water=Hanged Man further in my mind. This is part of my musings on the Empress vs The High Priestess. But I think I shall not start a gender discussion with you dear lady, I would be too afraid :eek:

[Sophie]

Similia - just wanted to thank you for taking the time to walk me through all this. I still have questions, but my mind's full of bureaucracy today (sigh), so poor Crowley is having to fight for air.

I'm also interesting in musing about the HP & the Empress. To me, they are obviously two sides of the same coin - we might see them as the two fcets of Isis. Does that help with elements? Well, off to open a couple of Egyptian mythology books ;)

More later.

ps - yes, I've been following Kwaw's wonderful exposition about Aleph/Fool.

[Grigori]

Similia - just wanted to thank you for taking the time to walk me through all this. I still have questions, but my mind's full of bureaucracy today (sigh), so poor Crowley is having to fight for air.

Well you've already more than exhausted my ability to answer, but I would love some impetus to study further and would especially love it if some of the Thoth heavy weights would speak up (Yes, that means you if you are reading this!! Go on!! :thumbsup: )

I'm also interesting in musing about the HP & the Empress. To me, they are obviously two sides of the same coin - we might see them as the two fcets of Isis. Does that help with elements? Well, off to open a couple of Egyptian mythology books ;)

The rather interesting thing I have only realised today is we have two primary Male archetypes, Air and Fire (Magician and Emperor) and two primary female Archetypes, Water and Earth (High Priestess and Empress). So all four elements are accounted for, with the typical gender assignments of the elements respected. (Of course Crowley also gives us the Hermit (earth ruled by the Air/Magician) and the Star (Air) as the remaining cards in which gender is significant).

It would seem to me the Magician (air) progresses (a very carefully chosen word :D) into The Emperor (fire) and the High Priestess (water) progresses into The Empress (earth). Its a rather interesting way to look at a progression elementally, although not the same directions as we would usually in respect the courts. The thing that causes the change reflects rather a lot of gender bias perhaps.

ps - yes, I've been following Kwaw's wonderful exposition about Aleph/Fool.
Yes I realise you have been there, but rather meant to encourage others to read it also when considering this threads topic. Perhaps providing a link (http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=660229&postcount=111) to his summation may have been a good idea as it is particularly useful and to the point also, or to even the thread (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=36453) in its entirety. *hits self in head*

Have fun with your Egyptian mythology books, and may your bureaucratic drama fade away also. :)

[thinbuddha]

This has become an interesting discussion.

It has occured t me that the confusion about which element to assign to certain of the majors is that they are assigned to planets, and the planets themselves do not have elemental attributions. But the sun signs do- So, would it be completely insane to assign The Empress as being attributed to water when her planet (Venus) happens to be residing within a water sign?

I know- it means that one has to keep track of astrology... maybe it becomes too cumbersome a method for using elemental dignities, but it has a certain romance to it all the same.

[wizzle]

I think this website does a nice job in discussing ED's and has what I consider the right list for the majors:

http://tarotstudies.50webs.com/elemental_dignity_basics.shtml

[rainwolf]

And this one too:

http://www.supertarot.co.uk/lessons/14sum.htm

[thinbuddha]

And this one too:

http://www.supertarot.co.uk/lessons/14sum.htm

Yeah- Supertarot- I have his book, and that is where my original confusion came from. There is a descrepency between his book and his web site.

[wizzle]

This has become an interesting discussion.

It has occured t me that the confusion about which element to assign to certain of the majors is that they are assigned to planets, and the planets themselves do not have elemental attributions. But the sun signs do- So, would it be completely insane to assign The Empress as being attributed to water when her planet (Venus) happens to be residing within a water sign?

I know- it means that one has to keep track of astrology... maybe it becomes too cumbersome a method for using elemental dignities, but it has a certain romance to it all the same.

The answer to your question is yes, it would be insane. Venus is primarily an earthy planet and secondarily associated with air. Sun signs in the context of tarot majors are totally inappropriate.

One should not confuse an astrological sign such as Taurus or Libra with a planet, such as the sun, moon, etc. IN the sign. For the most part, the sun sign astrology so beloved of the pop press is unmitigated garbage. As Steven Forrest so correctly put it, you are not "a Capricorn" you are "Capricorning." The sun is only ONE planet in a chart. Bah, humbug.

[Grigori]

Thin buddha, do you mean that if the planet Venus where in someones natal chart in a water sign/house (e.g. Pisces) you would think of Venus in a watery way when reading for that particular person?

I think that idea has merit in a way, cause that person will express Venus in a watery way. It does of course mean you would have to study each person chart before each reading, and if you used different charts besides the natal, it would get very complex very quickly.

The system we spoke about before, with planet rulerships mostly tell you the element of a planet. e.g. Saturn rules Capricorn, and both are Earth elements. Capricorn is assigned to The Devil XV so that card is earth. Saturn is assigned to The Universe XXI so that card is also Earth. The Universe is also assigned the planet Earth itself, as well as the Element Earth (so heaps of Earthy energy there). The meanings of Saturn also suggest it is an Earthy planet.

I think this is a simpler system, especially for a non astrologer, and only requires you to learn the basics of astrology and it's elements. And if you don't go around cutting the borders of your deck right away, then most of the information is written on the card to help you remember.

[rainwolf]

I think if I wanted planet's elemental qualities, I would describe them as follows:

Sun: fire
Mercury: air/earth
Venus: earth/air
Moon: water
Mars: fire
Jupiter: fire/water
Saturn: earth
Neptune: water
Uranus: air

[thinbuddha]

Thin buddha, do you mean that if the planet Venus where in someones natal chart in a water sign/house (e.g. Pisces) you would think of Venus in a watery way when reading for that particular person?

Er.... yeah- if that makes it sound les insane, then that is exactly what I meant (in your face wizzle-scrooge!)

But no- seriously, I was just throwing the idea out there, because there doesn't seem to be any firm answer to the queston on which element to attribute to The Empress.

I hear Earth

I hear Air

I hear Water

Since Venus is currently in Sag, I thought maybe I could hear a call for Fire.

-tb

[rainwolf]

There are different faces of The Empress which may help you understand the element attribution.

When The Empress is loving and motherly, she is being of water. When she is being talkative and understanding in a communicative way with her children without smothering, she is being air. When she provides for her children and is also supportive, she is being earth.

This is an excellent chance to use elemental dignity to find out exactly what she is representing! If she is next to cups, she is being watery. If she is next to swords, she is problem solving--like helping her child deal with a bully. If next to pentacles she is supportive and acting like a grounding support. However if she is next to another trump, then she may go back to more traditional examples of the empress.

You mentioned the fiery part of the Empress also. When venus is in sagittarius, venus is displaying it's energy in sagittarian ways. This isn't quite the same as being "just fire". That said, I think The Empress would be Ill dignified next to fire. This is the overactive mother in my opinion, and she does best in the other 3 elements, the closest she can be to fire is by being next to a sword. However, if it is an optimistic wand card, such as the 3 or ace, then I would say she is being creative.

If next to a court, then I would say the court is being influenced by the Empress, especially if the Empress was the card AFTER the court (if the spread is a linear spread) eg: 1....2....3....court....emp

[Grigori]

There are different faces of The Empress which may help you understand the element attribution.

This method that Rainwolf described is I think very useful for the cards where they may be considered to have multiple elements. I think perhaps trying to start the explanation with a planet that may be seen to have multiple elements was a bad idea when trying to illustrate the method. Sorry 'bout that :|

The elemental/astrological/qabalah attributions given so far are those typically used in Golden Dawn based decks (and hence the Thoth). Many people however will use GD based decks (especially the RWS) with different attributions, or even multiple ones for each card.

You could infact look at any card, and see aspects of all four elements, or even any of the 12 signs, or 7-11 planets. This is a more flexible approach, although not one that currently attracts me. This (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=49525) thread has a discussion of which sign may be applied to some of the cards. While its a little away from our topic, I think it gives a good idea of the way different people may approach the application of astrology to tarot, and how it affects a reading.

The advantage of thinking this way is you can then see how a card may express itself based on its neighbours (in the way RW illustrated above). This is what elemental dignities are really all about. Its much the same as in astrology thinking of a planet within a sign or house. You can then see how they both affect each other, and how that changes the expression of the meanings of both.

In astrology you have a planet within a sign, and you base your information on that. (There is more of course, but that is leading to a discussion of charts and aspects etc) In tarot we have not got a "chart" in the same way, but we can see the interaction of cards based on their proximity to each other in a spread.

If learning a specific approach to elements/astrology etc. is too much at this time, maybe you could try to focus on how a card affects its neighbours, based on your own understanding of the cards.

[rainwolf]

If you scroll down on this page you'll find all the elements and crap we talked about above.

http://www.worldtarotnetwork.com/Astrology/astrotarot.htm

Cheers :D

[wizzle]

Nowhere in The Book of Thoth (or in Lon Milo DuQuette, for that matter) do I see mention of Uranus, Pluto & Neptune. They are not (of course) in the Sepher Yetzirah. So why is there mention of them at all in relation to the Thoth? :confused: And if it is an attempt to update the Thoth - on what basis were these new planet attributions made?

For other discussion points - Crowley attributed XX-Aeon to Primal Fire. The Empress represents the alchemical element& principle of Salt - which must be energised by Sulfur (represented by the next Atu, The Emperor). My understanding is that Salt is an Earth element.
I found mention of Pluto, Neptune and Uranus in both the Book of Thoth and in Duquette's book. In BoT it is under the discussion of XXI, Universe (page 119 in my version of the Book). BTW, Uranus used to be called Herschel and Crowley associates it with the Abyss. In Duquett's book the associations appear on the Tree of Life Diagram in Chapter 9, but he doesn't discuss the assignments of the outter planets.