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star-lover
28-11-2005, 03:24
ive felt i was more my moon sign (sag) for ages
its my day to day self really - the moon is what you do without thinking about it

the sun (libra) is what you have to think about lol

its not as natural


think the moon/sun in combination is the strongest feature of the chart

so for ages i have been like after truth justice and fairness good times positivity, making it all ok

ascendant is important but as far as im concerned the ascedant is a block to the sun and moon

i understand my ascendant virgo but i dont like it one bit at all lol
though i know it helps me play out the sun and moon
and its pluto conjunct ascendant eek
in my case these 3 signs spell trying too hard to be good and thats true in me life

discuss


xx

dadsnook2000
28-11-2005, 04:19
star-lover, you may have taken the wrong path to reach the conclusions you have expressed. Without your chart, I may have to correct myself, but this is what I see.

Your Sun is in a middle house while your Moon is in a angular house -- you would normally, all other factors not considered, express yourself more easily through the Moon. This is basic.

Your Moon, relative to the Sun, is in a "worker" phase -- by itself this means you are in a struggle to be free of the past, to become a new person. The rest of your chart will speak to this and fill out the answer.

Your Virgo Ascendant, as such may not be the culprit in terms of being a block to the Sun. Afterall, the Ascendant is a point which when activated permits and shapes your expression -- BUT, you said it is conjunct Pluto! Pluto will provide the energy of expression. Pluto can be an isolationist, not good in some ways for someone who has to struggle to find a new/better identity and sense of self. Pluto can bring intensity, focus, a seeming "need" for power and manipulation or the drive to associate with those who have power and can manipulate -- also large groups who demand much from their members.

The question for you to answer may be, "How do I use this Pluto personality to augment and direct my Sun-Moon energy. The Sun reflects the appreciation of stability and resources (2nd house) within a peaceful and balanced sense of environment (Libra). The Moon is more adventursome and free wheeling and may actually embarass the Sun at times as a means of shaking the trees and seeing what happens. Pluto likes to have a plan, not just "see what happens." Its areas like this where you may see a "blockage" in how you live or experience events in your life.

This is about all I can constructively make of these limited factors. Hope it helps. Dave

star-lover
29-11-2005, 00:57
Wrong path to conclusions

in a nutshell probably yes LOL
when you go from one wrong to the other you end up somewhere one day and think how the heck did i get there

also a case of trying to run before you can walk when learning anything really

just wanted to say thanks for all that and i will reread and try and digest

x

carly
30-11-2005, 06:45
oh im kina new to astrology so most of that went whoosh! but i do know im more like my aquarius moon sign than my cancer sun sign :)

yes.. thats it... :rolleyes:

xx

star-lover
30-11-2005, 07:21
oh im kina new to astrology so most of that went whoosh! but i do know im more like my aquarius moon sign than my cancer sun sign :)

yes.. thats it... :rolleyes:

xx

my dads got aquaurius moon and sun cancer
he is wacky lol but emotional too
wacky emotions

nice people they are cancers and with aquarius moon bit more stable bit more thinking

carly
30-11-2005, 09:07
yay! wacky but sane, thats me :D

i should read my astrology book again, i payed attention the first half but then I gave up. *sigh* i'll try again soon

xx

wizzle
30-11-2005, 09:16
I think Dad has excellent points to consider.

You might also think about these issues. The moon is the major energy during childhood and is "ready made" so to speak, along with the ascendent. Thus, as a young person (I assume), you are more familiar with it.

The Sun in anyone's chart unfolds over a whole lifetime. As Steven Forrest would say, "you are not a Libra... you are Libra-ing." The Sun is one's fundamental goal in life, what we were put here to do, and the sign is the manner in which we do it. Most people start to get a feel for their Sun in their early 20's but I don't think it's really meaningful until the first Saturn return, at which time we take a look at whether or not we are really doing what we are meant to do in life.

wizzle - 2x saturn returns

sweetmajik
30-11-2005, 14:02
I think Dad has excellent points to consider.

You might also think about these issues. The moon is the major energy during childhood and is "ready made" so to speak, along with the ascendent. Thus, as a young person (I assume), you are more familiar with it.

The Sun in anyone's chart unfolds over a whole lifetime. As Steven Forrest would say, "you are not a Libra... you are Libra-ing." The Sun is one's fundamental goal in life, what we were put here to do, and the sign is the manner in which we do it. Most people start to get a feel for their Sun in their early 20's but I don't think it's really meaningful until the first Saturn return, at which time we take a look at whether or not we are really doing what we are meant to do in life.

wizzle - 2x saturn returns

Very good point. I Have a question though. What about your Nodes? Doesn't your North Node also have a say in your Life Path? And what if your Sun Sign is the same as your North Node?

dadsnook2000
30-11-2005, 23:03
To talk about Nodes, the Moon's nodes specifically, we have to understand just what they are. Consider first the Earth's equinox axis and the Aries point or first day of spring. The orbital plane of the Earth around the Sun is a key astronomical and astrological reference point. The Earth's axis is tipped in one direction and as we orbit about the Sun we reach two points, half way around our orbit, where the axis tilt is in a direction that is square to the Sun and our days and nights are equal in length.

For the Moon we have a somewhat similar, but also different, situation. The Moon's orbit about the Sun is not in the same plane as the Earth-Sun plane. It is tilted. This means that the Moon, as it travels along its orbital path, cuts across the Sun-Earth plane, essentially establishing for the Moon an Aries and Libra axis. So, how does this get used by astrologers?

The Moon's nodes are points in space. They are not planets with gravitational or other energies -- although thier location is used in calculating Moon-Earth relationships such as tides and geo-physical movements in the earth's plates.

So, we could say that the Moon is in a certain lunar zodiac relative to its nodes. Today, the Moon's north node, its "Aries" point, is at 12 Aries as measured in our conventional (Earth/Sun) tropical zodiac. The Moon is passing through the middle of Scorpio. Relative to its node, it is just entering the Lunar Scorpio phase. If you had asked your question several months ago when the Node was in Taurus, then the Moon could have been in the Lunar Libra phase. This makes sense. YET, NO ASTROLOGERS USE THIS WAY OF LOOKING AT AND INTERPRETING THE MOON!

So, how do astrologers use the nodes? We are back to that question again. By long-term observation, astrologers have come to a consensus that the north and south nodes seem to be associated with making connections with others, associations, having seemingly "prior learned skills" (south node) and needing to work on relationships (north node).

Other astrologers, in a more "short term" span of time, have postulated ideas about past lives and karmic messages. You have to consider these for what they are worth to you and how they "verify" themselves in chart after chart. Me, I don't tend to use the nodes for these concepts. That is not to say those ideas don't work -- for me they seem to work at times, not at other times. I just haven't adopted them as my practice is to use only what works about 100% of the time -- I throw everything else out. Simplicity works when it is dependable. I don't make astrology into anything that it isn't. Dave

star-lover
30-11-2005, 23:24
wizzle i'm no spring chicken LOL!! mid 40s but you wouldn't think it if you met me - too immature - saturn in the 5th - arrested development lol when i was younger so i'm making up for lost time

dad - are you a professional astrologer? do you take on work online at all?



p.s.
wizzle - i've had a report done by steven forrest and was pretty amazed - i love his style

dadsnook2000
30-11-2005, 23:57
star-lover, I do not practice professionally although I have no doubt about being able to if so inclined. I have been very active since the early 1970's and was associated with Izabel Hickey of Boston and her Star Rover's association, was president of the Massachusetts Astrological Association, co-founded the Worcester Astrological Study Group (met weekly, year round for seven years), and have taught and lectured quite a bit. I also studied with Jeff Mayo of the Faculty of Astrological Studies in London and Rob Pelletier (author of Planets in Aspect and Planets in Houses). Several of my "students" have gone on to professional work -- one has a world wide private clientel, the other is engaged in Asteroids/Astrology and has the most extensive research background on that subject. Others that have now passed on have been writers.

I've done a lot of research and explored many areas of astrology. Over time, I have reduced the methods I use to only a few, throwing out all of the bunk that gets endlessly repeated, and using only that which work all of the time. There are lots of good topical areas to explore, such as the earlier-mentioned Lunar Zodiac for interpreting the Moon.

So, the point of all of this is that, yes, I can practice professionally but I chose not to. I didn't want clients that wanted me to take charge of their lives. In the 70's and 80's, there seemed to be a general immaturity in people who always wanted answers but never wanted to take the time to work on finding their own answers. By avoiding public practice I can concentrate on the things I want. Rob Pelletier once said that as a professional he always had to be ready and able to serve a client, that he never had time to do the fun stuff that I did. Work should be fun. Dave

star-lover
01-12-2005, 01:52
thats amazing - i've heard of all of those people
i understand the rationale behind the love of research and teaching as opposed to taking on personal clients

(apart from linda goodman's sunsigns) my first book was jeff mayo's teach yourself astrology when i was a teenager - i loved that little book so much and read it so often the pages were all nearly fallen out lol - he had such a simple down to earth style - great for beginners

i did a basic course at the mayo school of astrology by correspondence back in the early 80s and got my little certificate lol - joan porter was my tutor, she was so encouraging, lovely lady

in those days you had to try and grasp the concepts behind the maths before you could cast a chart (now we have software) and although i learnt to do it i never really understood the various concepts

and the advanced course was a no go unless i was solidly grounded in the basics - so i dropped out (i was in my early 20s and just was too young and inexperienced to understand what some of the planets and houses really mean and the rest of it - i think life experience is a big advantage - i was trying to learn too much too soon - headache material) example, was trying to read that book recent advances in natal astrology - was so advanced for me but i liked reading it anyhow - found it all so fascinating

another reason being it all got so complicated the more authors you read - in this case i like your throwing out all the rubbish or what doesn't work for you almost 100% of the time - thats excellent thinking and i am going to start afresh with that guideline and make sure i am very clear in my mind what each factor means to me and keep it simple

dadsnook2000
01-12-2005, 02:11
Thanks for your reply, star-lover. I also had to drop out of the Faculty of Astrological Studies before advanced studies due to heavy traveling with my work at that time. If you care to share notes on methodologies that you like, I'll share what I have found as being workable. Some practices can be quite unsetteling to some -- like interpreting a chart without signs, houses, aspects. This is really neat. Anyways, write if you have questions or want to share notes. Dave

star-lover
01-12-2005, 02:56
thanks dave
will do


"like interpreting a chart without signs, houses, aspects"

do you mean ommiting one of those in interpretation - surely not all three - sounds intereseting

dadsnook2000
01-12-2005, 04:00
Yes, all three. Dave

star-lover
01-12-2005, 04:04
Yes, all three. Dave

ok i dont get it

if you dont have houses you dont have a chart
if you dont have aspects or signs then all you have is planets in no sign, no aspect and no house

lol what am i missing here
apart from interpreting what a certain planet represents universally i dont get it

aha
do you mean draw the chart up but remove the house lines and signs and just look at the planets in an empty circle

dadsnook2000
01-12-2005, 05:59
Not quite, but you are getting close. Actually, Minderwiz and I did this awhile back. The methodology is called Planets in Containment. Listing the planets in their zodiacal or ccw order, starting at any point, you interprete the "chart" (or non-chart) merely using each planet coupled with it's adjacent planets using the CCW order.

The central planet of any three-some has an essential general meaning. The planet before it (10 degrees, 50 degrees, 100 degrees -- whatever) brings a basic conditioning or bias that changes the meaning of the pair of planets. The planet "following" the central planet has to express that paired energy. Using this approach, you move thru the entire sequence of planets, treating each as the central planet relative to the planet preceeding it and following it. The interpretations are quite appropriate. Dave

wizzle
01-12-2005, 06:14
Not quite, but you are getting close. Actually, Minderwiz and I did this awhile back. The methodology is called Planets in Containment. Listing the planets in their zodiacal or ccw order, starting at any point, you interprete the "chart" (or non-chart) merely using each planet coupled with it's adjacent planets using the CCW order.

The central planet of any three-some has an essential general meaning. The planet before it (10 degrees, 50 degrees, 100 degrees -- whatever) brings a basic conditioning or bias that changes the meaning of the pair of planets. The planet "following" the central planet has to express that paired energy. Using this approach, you move thru the entire sequence of planets, treating each as the central planet relative to the planet preceeding it and following it. The interpretations are quite appropriate. Dave

Dad, I'd like to try this approach. Sounds like a great exercise. Was your exhange with Minderwiz in a thread here? Thanks.

SL.... sorry for jumping to unwarranted assumptions. I think you are right that some of us have a bias for our moon rather than our sun. That can be due to our circumstances in life. For example, a woman with Sun in Aries in the 10th house, who lives in a very conservative culture is not likely to be able to express this Sun out in the world. So she will either project the Sun onto her partner or lapse into her moon. Another possibility is having very strong aspects to the moon, so there is more "umph" than with the sun.

Linda Goodman's book on sun signs makes excellent material for starting fires, btw and every aspiring astrologer should make haste to use it in this fashion. It has no other uses.

dadsnook2000
01-12-2005, 07:31
The thread I did with Minderwiz may have been a year ago. "Containment" is a handy reference for doing readings when you don't have a chart available but only someones memory or an ephemeris to look up a date.

The important point is not that this is possible, but what seems to make it work? It may go back to some really basic basics: 1) What was in the sky when you were born, 2) what was below the horizon or missing, 3) what came over the horizon next that you had to adapt to experiencing, 4) what dropped below the western horizon that you "lost", and 5) what was the time interval between these events?

If we start to consider only what these points mean, then we start to see an emerging cycle that we have to adapt to -- in other words, we learn something about our chart and how we express it. Sequence is important. What would change if you moved the Moon somewhere else, and moved Mercury to the other side of the Sun? Oh, what kind of a person might we have been if born just a few weeks earlier or later?

I think that "Containment" interpretation is somewhat built upon this type of exercise. Each of our planets followed another planet and was, in turn, followed by another planet. Interesting to consider.

If we want to do containment exploration we will need to start another thread. Some of us may even want to get the book afterwards. Dave

squeakmo9
01-12-2005, 09:14
I've heard this said about the positioning of my Sun to my Mercury...they are both side by side, the Sun(18 degrees) being in front of my Mercury(16 degrees). The effect being a "blinding" of sorts to Mercury. The thinking process is stiffled or slowed down. So, I'm thinking, if it had been the other way around (Merc-18 and Sun at 16) then perhaps Mercury's path would have been illuminated rather than blinded? Perhaps making learning easier? Also, in regards to Jupiter...I have friends who were born the same year as I. One was born in January(0 degrees Cancer) while the other in March where Jupiter was 25 degrees also in Cancer. I caught the tail end of Jupiter at 27 degrees Cancer. Now I understand that everyone is fortunate in different ways and at different times, but my March friend seems to be very fortunate, monetarily speaking, than the two of us. Would this be a proper way to interprete "containment"?

dadsnook2000
01-12-2005, 10:33
No, you are not talking containment but you seem to be refering to a mental exercise I noted wherein you imagined one or two of your planets being in a different place and how that would change you.

Containment was spelled out quite directly, involving three planets in sequential order (CCW). The first planet imposes conditions upon the central planet, the combinined meaning of the first and the central planet then has to be expressed through the third planet. You do this for every planet in a chart. We will probably devote a new thread to the subject of containment. Dave

squeakmo9
02-12-2005, 09:24
Sorry, me bad!

einhverfr
05-12-2005, 15:40
First, Pluto conjunct a Virgo ascendant should be, well, interesting. It could mean hidden pressures creating sudden changes in every aspect of your life (I have enough of this with Pluto/Moon conjunction in Libra).

Without seeing the chart, I could be *way* off base here, but assuming that the Sun is in the 1st house, in Libra (it could be in the second house), this sense of feeling more like a Sag would make sense. The first house is sort of similar to Aries, and this would have a mitigating effect on the Libra aspect. The basic issue is that the sun is in its fall in Libra but in its exaltation in the First House. This would be less of a factor if the sun was in the 2nd house as you would have a shared rulership of Venus, but even here we might see the commercial aspects of Libra becoming more heavily emphasized, so it might not be a "classic" libra. If the moon is in the third house, it would not be subject to the same exaltation/fall problem you have with the sun. If the moon was in the 4th house, however, you might see a lot of emphasis on the house, home, mother, etc, and this might overshadow some of the Sag traits.

This is not to say that the sun is not important in your chart. The sun represents the core of your being, and it is part of the three central influences on a chart: the sun, the moon, and the ascendant. However this does give you more flexibility in moving between an aries-like and libra-like solar portions of your chart-- you would have both potentials and the Aries-like (1st house) might dominate most of the time.

star-lover
05-12-2005, 22:30
that was very interesting and helpful
sent you a pm with my chart to clarify

yes sun in 1st in all house systems except with placidus it goes into the 2nd,
moon in 4th which is another strong placement with jupiter - i have studied from home half my life - thats how that ones played out in the real world

and i guess one way the pluto ascendant pressure has played out i have done course after course and never feel good enough - like not satisfied until i have lots of diplomas on the wall - no rest with pluto - like a dog with a bone. It also gives an *on edge* quality - a few people i know with pluto ascendant are like that

always been good at taking any subject i know absolutely nothing about and mastering it (well, to the best of my abilities) - thats pluto i think as well (thoroughness) as well as scorpio 3rd house

but time to do something with everything i have learnt and put to practical use - thats my next challenge - i think transiting pluto going over my jupiter now has something to do with this

anyway just a few random thoughts

paradoxx
08-12-2005, 07:50
here's the containment thread for anyone who is curious http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=17742