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Whitestar
08-02-2006, 07:14
Hello,

I have run across conflicting dates for Scorpio vs. Sagittarius.

I've run across sources stating Sag. starts Nov.22, and a few stating the date as Nov. 23 as the start of Sag.

Which is correct???????

There's a huge difference between a Scorpio and a Sagittarius. If you are born on the 22nd of November would you have traits of both (if you are just looking at the sun sign and nothing else, that is)?

Whitestar

dadsnook2000
08-02-2006, 08:50
Your question has a simple answer. Our year is 365 and 1/4 days long. Every four years we have a leap-year to get the calendar back in sync. So, on or around the 21st, 22nd, or 23rd of a month we see the Sun changing signs. It varies from year to year as to which of these dates is the "correct" date. Dave.

Whitestar
08-02-2006, 08:52
Thank you for your reply!!!

Lillie
08-02-2006, 09:23
Yes.

You will have to look it up for anyone born round those dates.
See when the change was on the year they were born.

This is the same for anyone born on the cusp of one sign and another.
They have to look up their birth year and find out which they are.

Sometimes people are quite surprised.
They have thought all their lives they were one sign, but find out they are really another.

And some people just refuse to believe thay are something else.

einhverfr
08-02-2006, 10:18
The zoodiac signs are defined as 30 degree arcs starting from the point of the vernal equinox. Because the year is not exactly 365 days long (it is *approx* 365.25 days long) the day when the sun ingresses to any given sign will depend on the year.

dadsnook2000
08-02-2006, 11:17
And . . . to be both technical and picky, picky, picky, we have to remember that the apparent speed of the Sun's passage over any local MC point each day varies depending upon the time of the year. A 29 minute variance can occur from a date at one time of the year to a date at another time of the year, specifically between early February and late October. This is due to something called the Equation of Time. If you look on almost any globe you will see a small figure "8" diagram, typically located somewhere in the Pacific Ocean where it won't block out any land features. The changes in distance from the Sun, small changes in orbital speed, wobble about the axis by the earth, and rotational drag all contribute to these small variations.

If a combination of the current year within the leap year cycle, time of the year and effect by the Equation of Time all combine right you can move the Sun's ingress into any one Sign by many minutes of a day -- enough to move up before midnight of a calendar day or after midnight and into the next calendar day. Oh, too much. Do we really care about the calendar that much? Its more accurate to run a chart or use a computer program -- or even an ephemeris or almanac. Dave.

Whitestar
09-02-2006, 11:50
I have a further question.

The specific year I'm pondering is 1967...Nov. 22 1967.

I located an astrology book with tables in it, says it's Sag.

A friend also looked it up and her source says SCORP!!!!

HELP!!!

dadsnook2000
09-02-2006, 12:29
You live in Italy, you have an ephemeris calculated for Noon-GMT positions, you print calendars.

You live in California, you have an also have an ephemeris, its calculated for Midnight-GMT position, and you also print calendars.

So two calendars hit the market. A lady in Maine buys one. She loses it and buys another, different calendar. She finds the first one. One says the Sun will move into a sign on a given date. The other says the Sun will move into that next sign on the following date. Which is right? Both of them! Which one will you use? Who cares. Unless you have a need or accuracy or have a birthday on one of those two days, your life won't change much on such a trivial point. If you need the accuracy you'll get ahold of some software or a local almanac with a good reputation and go with what it tells you.

There are many good reasons why two sources can offer contradictory information. Those reasons typically involve issues of calculation accuracy, the type of calculation system used (tables, computers, ephemerides, etc.), the source of basic data (there are several institutions that calculate astronomical data including the US Naval Observatory, the Jet Propulsion Lab, Greenwich Observatory, a swiss firm whose name escapes me, and several more). Add to that all of the various astronomical and astrological software packages that use various sources and have their own calculation routines, and you have more variables than Carter has little liver pills. Add to that all of the confusing time zones and local exceptions -- well, there are a number of paths to in-accuracy.

If you can easily assimilate these broad ideas, then you should not be bothered by two sources of generalized data. Dave.

einhverfr
09-02-2006, 16:48
Do your self a favor.

Go to a site like Astrodienst.com and have it calculate your chart for the date, time, and place in question :-)

Whitestar
10-02-2006, 02:09
If you can easily assimilate these broad ideas, then you should not be bothered by two sources of generalized data. Dave.

As I don't believe myself to be a complete wash in the intelligence department, I CAN assimilate these broad ideas.

I can't help but feel a bit taken aback by this reply.

I have a friend with the birthdate in question, but this person doesn't know TIME of birth. I Do think it is bothersome to have conflicting data about the correct sun sign for this date!!! I know without birth time a chart can never be done, but it would at least be nice to be able to discern a correct sun sign.

I guess with out a birth time this person is up the creek without a paddle then about knowing which sun sign she was born under, since charts and tables are so inaccurate.

dadsnook2000
10-02-2006, 02:33
What you say is true. Without a birth time there is a great deal of uncertainty about what zodiac sign one may be born under in terms of the Sun's placement. Even a chart or a table will not help, even if it is accurate.

Consider this. At the time of the spring equinox it is common for radio and TV stations to announce, as they will this next month, that spring will officially arrive at 6-27 PM this Monday the 20th of March at Greenwich, England. There will be a lot of calendars that say spring arrives, and the Sun enters Aries, on the 20th of March. But in Australia, for example, the calendars will say spring arrived on the 19th of March -- due to the fact that they are more than six hours ahead of England timewise.

So, as I said, it depends upon a lot of things, chief among them being time zones, but also other things to a much lesser degree. BUT, WHO CARES! I say this to get your attention. Sign meanings don't start and end precisely and cleanly at a mathematical border! The signs are a process of unfolding social and culturally-reflective attributes shared by the whole world. They are not overly "personal" except that they link us to everyone else.

Your friend, in terms of how the Sun may or may not be affected by the sign it is in, is a combination of both signs. And as I have noted and shown many times, the signs are not that big a thing in astrology, certainly not as important as aspects and houses -- houses are personal, signs are social and world-sharing context's, aspects are energizing and seek expression. I would look to your friend's Moon to see where it was on the day of birth, to see if any great aspects were made and how your friend might express these. If you find anything in this way, it may indicate a birth earlier or later or in the middle of that day period. This type of investigation and careful consideration can help to narrow your focus on a possible time. You don't have to expect to get an exact time, just a workable time. Good luck. Dave.

wizzle
10-02-2006, 03:38
I so totally agree with Dadsnook. Sun sign astrology is VASTLY overrated. And although without a time of birth you lose some information in a chart, there is still a lot to work with in terms of the relationships between the planets. Those don't change all the much within a particular day.

You might want to check out Dad's phases of the Moon thread and consider that this type of information is available if you only know the date of birth. If you think about it, it's absurd to think that if you are born at one time you are a brooding, introverted Scorpio and an hour later you are a bouncing extroverted Sag.

I ran that birthday through my own astrology program and the odds are that your friend is a Scorpio. The Sun went into Sagittarius at about 6PM Central Standard Time, 7PM East Coast time. This information is useful for picking out jewelry with eagles on it but not much else.

Whitestar
10-02-2006, 09:09
Thanks for all of the info.

I was surprised to hear that sun signs are a little overrated :) but I am starting to understand!!!

I thought the comment "it's absurd to think that if you are born at one time you are a brooding, introverted Scorpio and an hour later you are a bouncing extroverted Sag." was extrememly funny, and sums it up for me to understand better!