What makes us think------

OK here's another off-the-wall question, but keep in mind this is coming from someone who spent an awful lot of serious thought on the question of whether or not bugs have muscles.

We talk a lot about how tarot isn't for fortune telling and that people not accustomed to seeking out tarot readings have the mistaken concept that it is. My question is this: Where did we come to the conclusion that tarot is interactive counselling and NOT a fortunetelling device? First it was a game, then at some point people did start telling fortunes using the cards----but when and where did it evolve that readers decided it's a form of counselling? Now, I know lots of people are going to jump up and say they don't consider themselves counsellors because they're not qualified, but if you're not telling a fortune and you're helping others to gain insights in an interactive session then you're doing a form of counselling using cards, so I hope we won't quibble about that. I use the word "counselling" for lack of a better one. If someone can come up with a better term, I'm all ears.

So my question is----when and where did tarot evolve into NOT being fortune telling and instead into being a counselling tool? Do we have any idea?

i guess it something to do with how our culture/society has developed recently
astrology is the same
it used to be fortune telling black and white then with the birth of psychology/iatry/analysis from the beg of century it all changed
things are more grey these days

i still think the cards say what they say/planets give the weather forecast but people realise they have power over their lives/decisions and they are actually informed and can chose whereas before it was more *forces beyond their control*/*predetermined* /superstition etc

something to do with the idea that all is within and empowerment rather than all is without
i dont really know lol -the post above was absolutely rubbish andprobably nothing to do with what you asked eek


EDIT
forgot to say ithink itis also to do with wanting to bring all kinds of serious divination into some more respectability with alot of people after the science age take over and the ridiculing of it and the its not science its hogwash type beliefs
i guess the new age revival inthelast few decades means its been asuccess at least with individuals if not large organisations etc

Bugs have muscles? - Crap, now I'm thinking about it!

That is an excellent question, Lyric! I hope I don't offend anyone with my response, but in my humble opinion, I think it might have to do with "counselling" is a more politically-correct term than "fortune telling". A coworker and I don't really discuss our relationship with Tarot very openly at work or with family because of how they will react, especially with the current - ok I am going to say it - over the top, nearly fanatic, evangelical christian movements taking over our society.

Just my humble 2cents!

valeria

Bugs and muscles ?

Lyric said:

OK here's another off-the-wall question, but keep in mind this is coming from someone who spent an awful lot of serious thought on the question of whether or not bugs have muscles.

We talk a lot about how tarot isn't for fortune telling and that people not accustomed to seeking out tarot readings have the mistaken concept that it is. My question is this: Where did we come to the conclusion that tarot is interactive counselling and NOT a fortunetelling device? First it was a game, then at some point people did start telling fortunes using the cards----but when and where did it evolve that readers decided it's a form of counselling? Now, I know lots of people are going to jump up and say they don't consider themselves counsellors because they're not qualified, but if you're not telling a fortune and you're helping others to gain insights in an interactive session then you're doing a form of counselling using cards, so I hope we won't quibble about that. I use the word "counselling" for lack of a better one. If someone can come up with a better term, I'm all ears.

So my question is----when and where did tarot evolve into NOT being fortune telling and instead into being a counselling tool? Do we have any idea?

Click to expand...

Lyric,

Pretend you're wearing flouncy skirts and brightly colored scarfes, and lot'sa jewelry, gold bangles, bobbles and beads. Or, for a guy, a be-dangled vest, a sharp knife to clean your fingernails and a single golden earring. And then you see . . . mysterious inheritances . . . a tall, dark, stranger . . .

You can't get away from fortune telling, Lyric. It has followed humanity from the very beginning of recorded time. A counseling tool ? Well, whatever works. Tune in tomorrow and you'll have a whole different bunch'a experts telling us how to do counseling or to take the human psyche apart and peer at its innards.

So, maybe Tarot is about how to fit an old idea onto a modern template. And give it a new name, and call it counseling.

But you can do it better with Tarot cards.

This: In the movie "Live and Let Die" a fortune-teller named Solitaire lays out the cards. The background music is supplied by Wings, a band headed by Paul McCartney. She looks at this mess (from several different decks), taps a card, and says, "A man comes." (Appropriate chords of music . . .)

Well, hell, we knew that. What kind'a action/adventure movie would it be if the hero, in this case, James Bond, secret agent 007, didn't show up.

But what if Solitaire had said, "British intelligence is concerned about this matter and is sending an agent to investigate it?"

Total blah.

No. Instead, "A man comes."

So, methods and moods, and flavors and fancies in counseling may come and go, but story telling will always remain.

No matter how we rip apart the human psyche, there will always be a place for the storyteller. Even long after Tarot has been dismissed.

Talisman

Counseling. . . I don't know, but

Consider this - you're eating lunch with your best girlfriend, who's telling you abut a tiff with her SO. The whole thing started when she tried to talk to him about things that were bothering her at work, but her SO had his head in the TV/newspaper/auto magazine, etc.

You say, "I bet you felt like he was really ignoring you. That's so frustrating, kinda makes you feel unwanted."

OR

A woman comes to you for a reading about how to make her relationship with her SO better. You lay the spread, and for the position that indicates her current feelings about the relationship, you turn over the 5 of Pentacles. You look at her and say, "I think you are feeling rejected and ignored by your SO and sad because of that."

Is either one counseling? I don't think so - in the first example, it's empathy (or sympathy, if you've never had an SO who ignored you while you were trying to talk), and in the second, it's applying your intuition and knowledge of the cards to bring her subconscious knowledge of the problem to the surface.

I think Tarot lost its fortune-telling aspect when peole stopped believing in things like fortune, fate, destiny. Nowadays we're taught that we create our own destinies.

Of course, being told over and over than you create your own destiny doesn't take the uncertainty out of life, so now we consult Tarot to help us decide what and how to create our lives. Is it the same thing, worded differently? Probably none of us is really old enough to know...the popular books about creating your own life have been appearing for about 100 years, at least.

I don't believe for a moment we "create our own destiny". What we do create are opportunities to make the best (or the worst!) of whatever hand we were dealt in life. You just don't have the same start if you are born a child of the Rothschilds and to a teenage prostitute in a slum in Manila. But both will give you certain openings and room for maneuvre (probably more if you're a Rothschild).

So the tarot can be used to counsel - I use the word in its ordinary, non-professional meaning - how to take advantage of opportunities or avoid traps. But alongside that, it also continues to act as a fortune-telling, divination tool (or else, why ask for "outcome"?) - in order to give the circumstances - past, present, future - and landscape in which those opportunities and traps will present themselves.

That's why I was baffled when I read Lyric's question, because most of my readings, and all of those I have received (pro and non-pro) have had an element of fortune-telling/divination in them. To be frank, I don't take a reader seriously if all he does is waffle about not being a doormat to my boyfriend. My friends can tell me that for nothing. Assorted with some solid divination and spiritual guidance, then it does have an important place.

As to when we started with the empowering speak - well, it must have started around the time Jung, a psychoanalyst and doctor, made a wide impact with his idea of collective unconscious and archetypes, in the 1960s or 70s. The self-help movement also had a lot to do with it. I am uncomfortable with the self-help movement as a rule. Though a few fabulous books have come out of it, for the most part it seems to have encouraged people either to become whiny and see themselves as victims, or to think that they can do anything with their lives, with a bit of resolution - they can "create their destiny". Both these ideas I think are egotistical - and in the latter case megalomaniac. Most sensible people realise that they are not true and hover somewhere in the middle, ackowedging pain, looking for opportunities, and trying to live their lives as best their can.

In my reading experience, people have troubles they want to address as best they can, and they want to see if life is going to give them a break some time soon. Obviously they can help that break by a) recognizing it, and b) remaining cheerful. Discussing those two actions/attitudes takes in both aspects of tarot reading - fortune-telling and empowerment, and in many cases will include a spiritual message in the cards as well.

Interesting post, Helvetica. Lots to think about.

I don't for one minute believe we are omnipotent Creators of our own destinies (my aunt recently had a bizarre freak accident that lead to several bizarre freak complications...none of which anyone could say she created). On the other hand, we are co-creators, at least. I mean, most of our lives are the consequences of our decisions.

Where I come from, if you whine about anything, someone will tell you to get off your bum and create something different in your life. So to that effect, I think the self-help movement has reduced tolerance for whining. On the other hand, I sometimes see the "create your destiny" thing as a way to blame the victim: sometimes people really, truly are victims of things they didn't mystically draw to themselves.

But I'd venture to say that most people do not believe in fate or destiny the way they once did.

All in all, interesting thoughts to add to my understanding of a topic I've pondered off and on for several years.

(P.S. The earliest books I've come across that talk about creating our own destinies had some bizarre theories about our thoughts sending out some sort of waves similar to radio waves which were then amplified or something... and I read a 1917 book that far predated Napoleon Hill and which talked about our thoughts creating wealth.)

Hmmm....good questions. In that respect, I tend to view tarot readings more towards the "fortune telling", or what I prefer to call "focus telling", in that the Tarot can present one of many options, directions or paths.
This can be useful to the querant by revealing options that might have not be considered or even known because the querant is too close to the question or problem.

As for counciling, definately not, particularly in the respect of professional counciling unless, of course, one is a licenced professional. Personally, I'm a firm believer in "captain of our own fates", and more options allows more choices.

My personal view of Tarot is as a method and device of revealing what one might not be aware of and presenting alternative options. The final choice is up to the individual, and I would never presume or imply to make that choice for someone, or even assume what revealed in the Tarot is the only option or a fate that cannot be changed.

Maybe my question would have been better phrased as:

What's wrong with just being a tarot reader? Why do we feel the need to present ourselves as something else that's more "professional" and less esoteric than being a tarot reader, whether we believe we tell fortunes and futures or not?

Personally, I see nothing wrong with just presenting myself as a tarot reader. I think there are many facets to being what I am. There's the element of fortune telling, maybe a little "psychic" thrown in there because there always is an element of that, and some counselling because sharing wisdom with someone else in need of it is a form of counselling. But I don't see why it's anything less than honorable to be a tarot reader, whether I'm seen as a fortune teller or not.

I realise that people like Miss Cleo have given us a bad name. So what? People practicing other professions without a license have scammed and ripped people off, but lawyers, psychiatrists and medical doctors haven't started denying they're doctors, lawyers and psychiatrists because of it.

So I'm thinking that maybe we're getting a little bit uppity about all this when we try to deny we are what we are. I'd rather see us be what we are in the most honorable and professional way we know how so that we bring to the reading of tarot a pride and professional standard that seems not to be there at this point for a lot of people. I'd rather see us just say "I'm a tarot reader" with pride and not worry about Miss Cleo or the clown in the gypsy costume who charges 40'leven thousand bucks to remove a curse. Instead we could be showing the world that what we do is perfectly legitimate and honorable in spite of the charlatans. And then maybe we wouldn't feel like we have to have expensive certification to validate what we do.

If a person is a psychologist or psychiatrist who uses tarot in their practice, then those are the ones I think can make a legitimate claim to being something other than a tarot reader, if they're just using it in that way. Some may be a tarot reader on the side, having nothing to do with using the cards in their practice, but that's another thing.

So------I'm a tarot reader. I'm an ethical, honest tarot reader. I feel no need to deny it or dress it up. Not that I never did feel like denying it and hiding behind some other rationale, but I feel differently about it now.