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dadsnook2000
02-03-2006, 01:02
I would like to digress from exploring the planets relative to the Sun and start to examine and discuss Saturn. Saturn is a rule maker, but also appears at times to be a rule breaker. There is no other planet, for some of us, whose effects upon us are as obvious and as intrusive as those abscribed to Saturn.

Saturn is a beuatiful ringed planet, often yellowish in color, and regarded as being the outermost visible planet -- although Uranus is sometimes visible in its orbit to those with exceptional eyesight and having a clear viewing location for the starry sky above us. As the "outermost" planet, and the slowest moving planet (visible), Saturn was given symbolism relating to "limits." These limits were associated with time (ones life span, which was often 30 years in ancient times), with the skin (the outer limits of our bodies), with walls (that surrounded homes and villages to keep out bandits), with rules (as laid down by "elders" in one's society), with conservatism (those who carefully nourished their resources had a better life in their old age).

All of this would have been reasonable in terms of building a set of symbols, but Saturn took us a step further. Saturn hammered home its seeming impact upon each of us by bringing marked changes into our life a predicatble times. The most obvious Saturnian change occurs for each of us around 29 years of age when Saturn returns to its natal position -- we are forced to mature and adopt new ways -- or really fight to remain in a juevenile mode, a fight that most lose sooner or later. Saturn seems to require change. "Resistance is futile." Change now, willinglly, or change later under harsher conditions, but change you must.

Once Saturn had our attention, it became easy to see other milestones in our life that were coincidental with Saturn's movements through our charts. Indeed, for astrologers, there are several Saturn cycles which can be easily observed:
** Saturn's cycle relative to its natal position in our chart.
** Saturn's cycle relative to the chart's angles and houses
** Saturn and the Moon; natal and progressed positions, relationships

It's possilbe that we may explore several "Planet Series: Saturn sub-topic" threads because Saturn is so unique, so impactful, so important in our lives. In this thread we will keep in mind the overall theme of "how we deal with Saturn's transits and activities within our charts -- and whether we see Saturn as a friend or a foe."

FIRST CONSIDERATION: Where is Saturn in our Natal Chart? What house is Saturn in? What kind of a natal imprint might this suggest on its own? Saturn aspects will, for the most part, be addressed later.

** First Quadrant of the chart **
The movement of Saturn through the first quadrant or first three houses of your chart, according to Marc Robertson, represents A PERSONAL GROWTH IN DEPTH. As you live within your life, your surroundings, and project yourself thruough your activities and presence, you will come face to face with reality. What you were is not how you are now required to be. Life will bring you opportunities to redifine your self. In fact, DEFINITION seems to be one of Saturn's more important keywords. We will keep this sense of how Saturn may be experienced in life as it transits our first quadrant while we examine the natal position of Saturn in these houses.

** Natal Saturn in the first house **
One appears cautious and reserved, especially in early life. A lack of confidence requires us to define strategies for success and acceptance. Being still and unnoticed until we map out the surroundings we find ourselves in is typical. Trying to get others to live by "the rules" often leads to frustration as we try to equate "our rules and constraints" against what others have or don't have for rules and constraints.

** Natal Saturn in the second house **
We are preoccupied with making sure that we know our basis for being, just what our personal values and preferences are. We tend to work hard to get a basis of substance put in place, to order our resources, to stake out what is important to us and about us. Do we have enough? Is our list of "enough" complete?

** Natal Saturn in the third house **
How do I understand my environment? This, for Saturn, is the house of the ordered mind. It is a library of understanding in which everything must be cataloged, indexed and summarized. When young, this is hard to do, and all that is understood often has to be relearned and re-understood again. Plan after plan may be adopted and disgarded.

** The second quadrant houses and Saturn's place there **
The second quadrant may span a different (greater or lesser) arc of degree-space than the first. This is symbolic of where your focus is. The second quadrant represents GAINING A GROWTH IN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

** Natal Saturn in the fourth house **
One seems concerned with fundamental values. Early in life, these are the family's values as taught and experienced, sometimes seen as very restrictive or dicatorial, always quite definite and structured. This may be due to an absence (in one way or another) of one parent or even both parents, as experienced by the chart-owner. In any case, one emerges from early life with the sense of having been deprived or limited. What one actualy gets is a sense of responsibility, an ability to choose one's burdens and limited areas of exploraton, a legacy of values.

** Natal Saturn in the fifth house **
One seems totally occupied in defining how one expresses oneself, what skills are needed, what structures are used, how one can creatively shape ones life. Fun tends to be along planned or structured activities but a full range of creative expression can be had. Often one plays within some constraints, be it a ball field, or with a handicap, or within differing age groups, etc.

** Natal Saturn in the sixth house **
This "taking stock of me" house suites Saturn quite well. One seems capable of accepting what Saturn offers and is able to restructure rules, legacies, and the constraints of others so as to better ones work habits, effectiveness, and ability to help others along the way. Energy levels may be down and a lack of self-discipline may signify levels of depression from time to time.

These are basic understandings, summarized here, that every early-studies student should learn and understand early in their astrological education. Just as Saturn represents structure, it is one of the primary symbols in our chart that provides a major part of our personal structure. Saturn tells us a lot about our fears, where we choose not to grow, where we accept our own or other's recstrictions and rules, where we can face challenges that are important to our growth, where we are weak and need to overcompensate.

In my next post, I'll cover Saturn in houses 7 through 12. After that we will look at the cycles of Saturn as it moves through time and through our chart, marking important growth and crises points in our lives. We will also look at the Saturn-Moon phase relationship in terms of both the natal position and the secondary progressed chart. After all of this, we will hopefully have gained a comprehensive understanding of the may ways in which this far-away planet makes such a huge impact in our lives. Dave

dadsnook2000
02-03-2006, 06:01
Continuing our FIRST CONSIDERATION theme for Saturn; Natal Saturn in the houses.

SATURN IN THE THIRD QUADRANT
With Saturn in this quadrant of your natal chart, your focus is on understanding others, how to work with or use others, how to reach out to others. Saturn is not the life of the party. This "outward" focus requires that Saturn work through a structure of some sort -- agreements, business practices, institutions, whatever -- these provide the rules and format that make Saturn more comfortable and effective

** Saturn in the 7th house **
Natal Saturn in the 7th houses asks to define our relationships with others; what is in it for me, what do I have to give "them." Through this seemingly shallow approach to understanding what others mean in our lives, we truly gain some solid perspective on ourselves, on what we have to offer, why others will or will not relate well to us. Yes, there is a lot of talk about this position meaning that we'll marry later in life or marry someone older, as well as other stuff. To some degree, that stuff may be true -- but keep in mind that there are often additional factors needed to support this "unsophisticated level of astrology" that is common in the magazines.

** Saturn in the 8th house **
This is the "house of unequal sharing" and Saturn here often accomplishes what it first thought of in the 7th house -- what's really in it for me, how much do I have to give up?" Here, Saturn seeks to understand the resources and values of others, to look beyond the surface, to mine for nuggets of gold. Saturn seems to understand reality at this point. Finances, partnership demands, dissolving partnerships and marriages, salvaging what one can from life's battles, understanding death and mortality, all of this and more is Saturn in the 8th house.

** Natal Saturn in the 9th house **
Explore and define what your ideas, ideals, and connections are to others. How do you link to society, to religion, to your personal beliefs, to the belief systems of others -- religous or philosophical or business or etc. etc. How will you explore and come to grips with the wider world? Will you follow a path of higher, formal education? Will you pursue your own education? Will you let the vagaries of life teach you your lessons? Will you seek a mentor? Saturn represents the institutions and structure that lead you outward as well as those that lock you inward. How will you use Saturn?

SATURN IN THE FOURTH QUADRANT
This placement puts your focus upon the issues that relate to how you are to function within the world and how you are going to be influential. Ready or not, you are in the position of having "just graduated" and you seem destined to be thrust out kicking and screaming into the wide, wide world. Since we are talking about natal Saturn here, this means you will be "scramble" mode to keep pace with your challenges and then succeed and lead others along the paths you are just discovering for yourself.

** Natal Saturn in the 10th house **
Define your role before others. Assume responsibility. Strategize. How will you handle pressure? What pressures did you feel as a young person, how will you deal with related pressures when you are older? Do you feel a need to economize in how you handle resources and time? "Choice" is when you make a decision on your own, to be proactive. This is one form of Saturn at work, effectively. "Response" is when you make a move due to pressures. This is a form of Saturn making you work, often not effectively. Pressure may be a recognition that you always have choices, or it may be that you will feel that choices are always being made for you.

** Saturn in the 11th house **
Saturn will likely require that you grow, mature and strengthen yourself thru cooperative associations with others -- where you work within an overall strategy, where you are rewarded within the overall strategy. Influence of others, from others, is seen here. Saturn sees influence as a refinement of reality and can work within that reality.

** Saturn in the 12th house **
Here, Saturn bestows upon you the sense that you need to prepare yourself. For what? The future. Saturn says you need to read the tea leaves and to develop a plan. Instead of Saturn representing "time" and the past, here the old man of the solar system seems to suggest a transformation into the New Years Baby -- what will you become, what will you need to become that future you, how much of your life should be devoted to preparation for yourself or for others? Saturn here often makes one think that they are "fated" for something else.

It doesn't take much immagination to see these definitions as being able to also define an ongoing cycle of experience and transformation as we cycle through our lives. But that is for another thread -- we will explore the cycle of Saturn through our lives in another thread. For now, we need to assure ourselves that we are grounded (a Saturn term) in understanding Saturn in the natal chart.

Those that wish to participate can offer their views of how they express and experience natal Saturn in one of their chart houses. I think we can all learn thru this form of sharing. Dave

dadsnook2000
02-03-2006, 06:10
My Saturn is in my 10th house, opposite Sun/Neptune, square Jupiter and at the center point of a yod (double inconjunct) with Mars and Venus/Mercury. Saturn plays a key role in my chart.

True to some of the astrological old-wives tales, I lost my dad at an early age (18) and experienced him as often absent (due to working long hours) which was typical due to the economic environment long ago. I was the oldest in our family and always had a sense of responsibility and of having to achieve -- what didn't matter -- just try hard and succeed.

Since Saturn represents "age" (another old astrological axiom), I always found older people to act as mentors, making up for the loss of a father in some ways. I always had plan A and plan B -- when A didn't work, I'd switch to B. This can be equated to the "Saturn Strategy" symbolism.

Since my Saturn is in Pisces and Neptune is in opposition (in Virgo), as is the Sun, aspects play a strong role in defining my Saturn energies. I will try to address Saturn aspects in a seperate thread -- as I'm sure there will be many questions about Saturn in aspect to another planet or two. So, hold those questions -- and hold the Saturn aspects for the most part. Dave

WhiteRaven
02-03-2006, 07:22
** Natal Saturn in the 10th house **
Define your role before others. Assume responsibility. Strategize. How will you handle pressure? What pressures did you feel as a young person, how will you deal with related pressures when you are older? Do you feel a need to economize in how you handle resources and time? "Choice" is when you make a decision on your own, to be proactive. This is one form of Saturn at work, effectively. "Response" is when you make a move due to pressures. This is a form of Saturn making you work, often not effectively. Pressure may be a recognition that you always have choices, or it may be that you will feel that choices are always being made for you.


My Saturn is also in the 10th House (Aquarius). I am an only child and do not know my biological father. I have been basically responsible for myself since the age of 16, where I quit High School to start in the work force, and lived on my own. At the age of 19 I had my first child and more responsibility came into my life. I had my second child in the year that followed. I've always seemed to find some sort of a solution to obstacles that have come my way....no matter what type of intensity they had, although it would take me a lot of time to actually move on the solution. At the age of 30, with three children in tow, I returned to school to get my Programmer Analyst Degree. Which, in the end, I found that this particular career choice was not for me....although, I do work on computers today and can put one together from scratch....it is not what fulfills me....far from it for that matter...also, I became pregnant with my twins, and for other reasons/obstacles....did not complete the course. Now, at the age of 42, I find myself starting new again, and have full intentions of returning to school once again in Psychology.....

That pretty much sums me up short and sweet.

stardancer
02-03-2006, 18:26
** First Quadrant of the chart **
The movement of Saturn through the first quadrant or first three houses of your chart, according to Marc Robertson, represents A PERSONAL GROWTH IN DEPTH. As you live within your life, your surroundings, and project yourself thruough your activities and presence, you will come face to face with reality. What you were is not how you are now required to be. Life will bring you opportunities to redifine your self. In fact, DEFINITION seems to be one of Saturn's more important keywords. We will keep this sense of how Saturn may be experienced in life as it transits our first quadrant while we examine the natal position of Saturn in these houses.

** Natal Saturn in the second house **
We are preoccupied with making sure that we know our basis for being, just what our personal values and preferences are. We tend to work hard to get a basis of substance put in place, to order our resources, to stake out what is important to us and about us. Do we have enough? Is our list of "enough" complete?

Dave

Hmmmm, values? Do I have enough? I love security and material things, but that doesn't necessarily mean expensive. There are certain things I like, and if I like, I collect. Books, movies, ideologies, lamps, needlepoint kits... I have always wholly supported other's preferences and especially supported my own. It's like a right of life, to make my own choices based on what makes me feel comfortable. I have been known to have near panic attacks, or become downright nasty, if something I value is threatened. This could include a loved one, myself or my favorite collected rocks.

When I was in martial arts, I was told I have a killer instinct. Yeah. You toucha my stuff, I breaka u face. :o)

WhiteRaven
02-03-2006, 22:30
I've also been thinking about how Saturn affects me in my life. Seeing it is the ruler of Capricorn and Capricorn is my Sun, Moon and Mercury sign (8th, 9th and 10th houses), I would think that even without the aspects detailed at this point, that it has a major impact on my life in general. Perhaps this is why I have always been in such a "serious" mode. I was always told that I acted older than my age and I, myself, had a hard time really letting loose so to speak...Many things that was considered "fun", that I found childish and frivolous.....even today, I find it hard to really be "silly" type thing....I do have a sense of humour but it is considered a "dry" sense of humour. The only time I did not struggle with this "serious" mode was when I would play with my kids....but even then, I found that I would hold myself back to a certain degree.....

Edited to add: Loyalty, Honesty and trust are also major keywords for me...and my expectations for others are quite high in those depts.

Crystelle
03-03-2006, 03:00
** Natal Saturn in the fourth house **
One seems concerned with fundamental values. Early in life, these are the family's values as taught and experienced, sometimes seen as very restrictive or dicatorial, always quite definite and structured. This may be due to an absence (in one way or another) of one parent or even both parents, as experienced by the chart-owner. In any case, one emerges from early life with the sense of having been deprived or limited. What one actually gets is a sense of responsibility, an ability to choose one's burdens and limited areas of exploraton, a legacy of values.Dave

Spot on. My biological mother left when I was very young and my father shied away from raising me, ultimately marrying someone to raise me who was only after his money. I often battled the feeling (and still do sometimes) that I missed out on some of the best parts of being a kid. I often discuss this with my BF as well to vent those feelings in a healthy way. I talk about not having choices and now that I have them, I am slightly overwhelmed. He said the most thoughtful thing to me the other day echoing the same "value" sentiment above. He said that he admired me though because I was so oriented with life and its options, how to make them work, and seeing them through -- he's a self-proclaimed procrastinator and activity-quitter. I never really saw myself that way -- just boringly dependable and sometimes even (yuck) predictable. But I had to be bc growing up, who else was going to do it? So I think that this is incredibly accurate.

squeakmo9
03-03-2006, 08:58
I've got Saturn in Aries in my 8th house, I find it a challenge to fearlessly put my best foot forward just go with the flow of things. I really hate being caught off-guard. I think this placement makes me somewhat aloof but really it's just being shy. Getting close to others is also another issue as well as being open. I do realize that not everybody is out to hurt me and work hard to not be hypersensitive. My Saturn is square Venus in the 11th house so I get the idea that I need to be cautious of how I extend myself with others, being clear of my motives and intentions.

** Saturn in the 8th house **
This is the "house of unequal sharing" and Saturn here often accomplishes what it first thought of in the 7th house -- what's really in it for me, how much do I have to give up?" Here, Saturn seeks to understand the resources and values of others, to look beyond the surface, to mine for nuggets of gold. Saturn seems to understand reality at this point. Finances, partnership demands, dissolving partnerships and marriages, salvaging what one can from life's battles, understanding death and mortality, all of this and more is Saturn in the 8th house.

My dad died when I was 2 so I got an early education on death/loss. As far as my finances are concerned, I also learned how NOT to manage money in my mid-twenties when I had to declare bankruptcy, but that could also be my Uranus/Pluto at work in my 2nd. I can't say I'm that interested in other's finances and am not in a partnership, with Saturn there, there may never be a "partnership", ever. But again other aspects, planets should dictate that. However as far as sharing personal "stuff" with others, I just don't do it. If I try, I do it rather poorly, can't share and play with others nicely:)

sarai21
03-03-2006, 13:49
Hello,
It is interesting to see the opinions of fold with the 10th house Saturn placement, as I have a friend struggling with her work( profession or job?- she can't make the connection) The idea of Saturn as "Age" brings in the idea of "mentor" to me.
My natal Saturn(in Gemini) is in my 5th house. I am a jeweller/artist- yet I am not the typical "free spirited" artist. I really have to work hard to accomplish anything. I am also most comfortable with assignments(commissions) where there is a time limit and a design to stick to. To be honest- my easiest time, creatively, was at school when there were assignments and evaluation by instructors.
"I struggle to create." seems to be the statement that best describes, yet I still find myself drawn to this work. Raising my son, I have found, is also often a struggle. I have to work hard at communicating with him( and hearing him!). I wonder at the ease some parents have with their kids. How can they not see parenting as anything other than hard work?( Then I look at my chart to realize what colours my perceptions!)

dadsnook2000
03-03-2006, 21:58
Thank you to those who have shared so far. There really seems to be a strong connection between Saturn and the struggle we have to deal with those aspects of our charts that Saturn touches. Saturn is indeed a taskmaster, very well symbolized by the old man, the authority figure, the cranky person who is so hard to please.

Later, we will examine some cyclic processes and hopefully gain some additional insights into how Saturn works, the pace he works at during the transits thru our charts over time, and the benefits we ultimately gain from the influence of Saturn.

For now, we should stick with the thought that wherever we invest extra effort and persistance is where we might ultimately excel. With struggle comes the possibility of success. With patience comes the time and opportunity to see where other rewards can be found. Wherever Saturn is, some form of structure or regimine seems to help. I had mentioned that I have Saturn as the focal point of a yod between Mars and Venus/Mercury. This expresses itself in many ways, including writing. I can write in an automatic mode IF I FIRST DRAW A LINE DOWN THE LEFT SIDE OF THE PAPER AS A GUIDE -- and then I just let the thoughts and the words flow. This always amazed me. Now with computers, I no longer seem to need this kind of mechanism -- unless the screen and keyboard are substitute symbols. But, yes, even with Saturn in the 5th, a format or process helps to unleash the flow of creativity. Its a strange mechanism but consistent with my view that symbols always try to find as many ways as possible to express themselves. Dave

huredriel
03-03-2006, 22:49
** Natal Saturn in the sixth house **
This "taking stock of me" house suites Saturn quite well. One seems capable of accepting what Saturn offers and is able to restructure rules, legacies, and the constraints of others so as to better ones work habits, effectiveness, and ability to help others along the way. Energy levels may be down and a lack of self-discipline may signify levels of depression from time to time.
Well apart from the depression which I don't really get (though have down days like most people :P) ...... this I think is pretty accurate. I'm pretty organised and am seen as such at work ... and very determined (my Sun is trining Saturn) and quite *aggressive* (Saturn in Aries?) .... although Saturn was retrograde in my natal chart.

I also have Saturn in quincux with both Neptune and Uranus (tight degrees I believe) ..... so would this indicate a tendency to wander off into my own world from time to time (especially at work LOL)?

WhiteRaven
03-03-2006, 22:51
Would the fact that Saturn is less than 45 degrees from my MC give me more obstacles in this area too?

stardancer
03-03-2006, 23:07
I forgot to mention my Saturn is in Sagittarius. When I read about Saturn and it's need to limit and control, and then realize Sagittarius is more about freedoms and ideals, it makes me think I was more fortunate to have Sagittarius as a bearer of bad news, lol. But I think Saturn is Saturn is Saturn no matter what. I take my beliefs very seriously. Especially since Pluto is square and Mercury and the Asc are in a loose semisquare between the two (maybe my birth time is off a bit and they are closer). I always thought Saturn fought Pluto in my life. Devil against Devil, or maybe Devil's Advocate. I love playing Devil's advocate. I see it as Pluto always trying to test the limits of Saturn. Uncovering and exposing what Saturn wants to control. This comes out as rebelliousness against rules and authority, even though my mind tells me rules are necessary. I'm not a rule breaker all the time, if it's good (remember it's my reasoning) it's good. But if it violates my sense of righteousness, I start splitting hairs until the battle is won. People that are natural Saturn types (enjoy rules and enforcing them) will eventually see me as a rebel (rebel = me saying it more nicely that what they would say, lol).

dadsnook2000
04-03-2006, 01:10
White Raven
Your Saturn is in your 10th house so it is important in your chart. The fact that it is less than 45 degrees from the MC doesn't seem so relevant here. When we look at phase relationships we are looking a cyclic positions which have a meaning -- a meaning which is quite helpful when an aspect to that planet doesn't exist or when the planet is not at/near an angle. So, I would focus on "Saturn in the 10th" instead.

Stardancer
Saturn having strong aspects to other planets makes Saturn very strong and evident in a chart. The aspectual relationships often take on more meaning than sign and house positions as the conflict of energies and purposes seems to rise to the top of our personalities and attention that we give to them. I'm looking forward to the time we finally address aspects -- by then, the list as a whole will be well prepared to understand and work with them.

huredriel
Saturn in a yod with Uranus and Neptune gets a very bad review by Ebertin in his book The Combination of Stellar Influences -- a book which every single astrologer has and which every astrology student should have. He says that the key focus of Uranus/Neptune as a pair is "the elimination of the waking consciousness." And with Saturn involved, "depression, instability,pessimism. A painful loss, mourning or bereavement" when a transit occurs.

Remember that Ebertins research was conducted between World War * and World War II, and after World War II in Germany. His father has also done research in this topical area around the turn of the century when times were hard in Europe. All of this pessimism comes through. In todays world, we sometimes see a broader scope applied to these meanings, although the original meanings he gave also apply in many cases. Your observation about "wandering off into your own little world" is quite appropriate, wouldn't you say? There is also the difficult melding of meanings for these three planets: structure, demolition, idealism might be three keywords that would lead you to think about "finding new ways to improve processes and enable dreams or visionary goals to be met" or something like that. Does this suggest to you that you could write and inspire others, or be a business consultant, or express yourself thru writing as a way to influence others?

And who said Saturn couldn't be fun or interesting? Dave Wizzle?!

Elven
04-03-2006, 01:57
Just some help needed please Dave. What are my Saturns in? I put up my details but Im not making any sense of anything here. I can look them up once I know though ;) Thankyou!! :)

Blessings
Elven x

LOL!! Please dont say "Top drawer, left hand side" - I already looked - they're not there :D

Found it!! - WhiteRaven has pm'd me - thanks WR :D

prudence
04-03-2006, 04:02
** First Quadrant of the chart **
The movement of Saturn through the first quadrant or first three houses of your chart, according to Marc Robertson, represents A PERSONAL GROWTH IN DEPTH. As you live within your life, your surroundings, and project yourself thruough your activities and presence, you will come face to face with reality. What you were is not how you are now required to be. Life will bring you opportunities to redifine your self. In fact, DEFINITION seems to be one of Saturn's more important keywords. We will keep this sense of how Saturn may be experienced in life as it transits our first quadrant while we examine the natal position of Saturn in these houses.

** Natal Saturn in the second house **
We are preoccupied with making sure that we know our basis for being, just what our personal values and preferences are. We tend to work hard to get a basis of substance put in place, to order our resources, to stake out what is important to us and about us. Do we have enough? Is our list of "enough" complete?


My Saturn is in the 2nd House, at 4 degrees Taurus. This placement has always confused me. I am not sure I am "preoccupied with making sure I know my basis for being". I may not understand what that statement means. I feel that I have always known my values, and was pretty stubborn in my conviction that I was right. I have chnaged my opinions/views on many subjects as I have aged, mellowed somewhat, and have definitely lost the idea that I am "right".

Ordering my resources, this doesn't sound like me. Is this regarding financial resources? I am not into spending lots of money, but when I need to make a purchase I try to buy the best that I can afford. But mainly, I am not a "shopper" nor a collector of material things. I have also always had a strong sense of being modest, regardless of the amount of wealth one has, I do not feel it is tasteful to flaunt money, whether it is through words (i.e. bragging about one's possesions/cars/homes) or through gaudy purchases that are meant to show off one's wealth. It just seems so wrong, other than being tacky, to have something, like a hundred thousand dollar ring, when there is so much poverty in the world. Not sure if my natal Saturn has anything to do with any of this.

Also, my saturn is trine my MC, and and I think in a sextile with my Sun and Venus, a square with my mercury...and I can't recall the term for what it is doing with my Jupiter :confused: ...(jup is at 5 degrees scorp, 8th)

star-lover
04-03-2006, 04:16
i have saturn in capricorn in the 5th house - i have had few relationships and not much luck in matters of the heart - i have always been too serious in affairs of the heart - i dont flirt well or take it all lightly like you should and have fun - maybe it will all go good in my later life then

i was wise beyond my years as a child so i am told - never played with dolls but preferred books - i have in the past looked for father figures in relationships - i have never quite managed to realise my own self worth - i know it but it hasn't clicked yet - and as for children - when i gave birth i had the hardest time of my life not only in physically giving birth - had to have an emergency caesarian after i had it all PLANNED and had read every book and magazine imaginable i was more expert than some nurses (saturn yes) how i was going to have a home birth but ever since had panic attacks/depression etc thinking how on earth am i going to be a good mother and make my child's life successful

having said all that i crack a good joke and in a way im like a professional comedian in many circles - good side of saturn in the 5th - always wanted to be an actress but making people laugh will do i guess

last thing i will gass about here is i have always been too hard on myself - beat myself up too much too much - thats saturn in the 5th i guess as well as sun square saturn (though wide square - 8 degrees)

isthmus nekoi
04-03-2006, 06:07
Ordering my resources, this doesn't sound like me. Is this regarding financial resources? I am not into spending lots of money, but when I need to make a purchase I try to buy the best that I can afford. But mainly, I am not a "shopper" nor a collector of material things. I have also always had a strong sense of being modest, regardless of the amount of wealth one has, I do not feel it is tasteful to flaunt money, whether it is through words (i.e. bragging about one's possesions/cars/homes) or through gaudy purchases that are meant to show off one's wealth. It just seems so wrong, other than being tacky, to have something, like a hundred thousand dollar ring, when there is so much poverty in the world. Not sure if my natal Saturn has anything to do with any of this.

Also, my saturn is trine my MC, and and I think in a sextile with my Sun and Venus, a square with my mercury...and I can't recall the term for what it is doing with my Jupiter :confused: ...(jup is at 5 degrees scorp, 8th)

Hey Astrid - I've got something sort of similar/opposite to you. Saturn's in 8th conjunct Jupiter. My attitude is exactly the same when it comes to material value. Quality over quantity, tasteful not tacky.

** Saturn in the 8th house **
This is the "house of unequal sharing" and Saturn here often accomplishes what it first thought of in the 7th house -- what's really in it for me, how much do I have to give up?" Here, Saturn seeks to understand the resources and values of others, to look beyond the surface, to mine for nuggets of gold. Saturn seems to understand reality at this point. Finances, partnership demands, dissolving partnerships and marriages, salvaging what one can from life's battles, understanding death and mortality, all of this and more is Saturn in the 8th house.

This is pretty spot on.

Here's a funny story for a Saturnian kid (Cap sun) - I started investing money when I was 12 or 14. I think my first investment was a negligable amount and the bond matured after 3 years, but dear god, for a young girl, it was a helluva lot of money and 3 years seemed like an eternity!! Still, it was sort of a neat concept at the time to just leave your dollars lying around somewhere to go forth and multiply.

What else? I was always fascinated by death and funerals. Oh, and unlike most ppl, I don't get pissed off about taxes. Another "unequal sharing" thing. Financially priviledged folks should pay taxes out their a** is how I see it, and I'm saying this born and raised in a highly priveledged, right leaning household.

I should add though, that my Saturn experience is heavily modified by the Jupiter conjunction.

dadsnook2000
04-03-2006, 08:01
For Elven
I haven't run your chart yet as you only recently added your information on the list of participants, but your Saturn appears to be in the 10th or 11th house. This is funny because you said, "don't tell me its in the top left drawer" or something to that effect -- and, indeed, Saturn is in the top left section of your chart. Oh my. For now you can read both the 10th house and 11th house meanings for Saturn and see what fits. I'll try to run your chart and take a look at it later.

For isthmus nekoi
I'm glad you can identify digging deeper for nuggets of gold (quality, not quantity) and that the rest of the definition resonates so well. This is how the list members get to more fully understand the meanings behind the planets and the houses -- having someone you "know" share those things really helps. This, of course, is the value of AT, the willingness of the list to be open and to share so as to help others. Thank you.

For star-lover
Saturn brings some degree of discomfort and the need to prove to ourselves our worth to each of us. Perhaps thats what a good teacher does, but the methods that Saturn uses often seem harsh.

For Astrid O
Your Saturn shares the 2nd house with Mars (two opposites there) and is in opposition to Jupiter in the 8th (another type of opposite) and square Merc in the 11th (a kind of referee position). This strong T-Square pattern, by itself, suggests a need for variety and change, adjustments in what you want or need, among other thngs. I'd say that this easily overpowers the meaning of Saturn-by-itself because you have to treat this as Saturn-Jupiter-Mercury.

Saturn and Mars is a "stop and go" thing. Saturn opposite Jupiter is a "should I or shouldn't I?" and a balancing act. The pattern is asking poor Mercury to choose between the two heavyweights -- I might suspect that you often use the opinions or suggestions or even "slight inferences" of others to help you choose at times. Now, ask me where that came from!

Like I said before, Saturn can be fun. Star-lover would agree with that. Dave

rcb30872
04-03-2006, 11:31
Hi Dave

This is what I got from my chart:
Saturn in 5th house:

You tend to be somewhat unemotional, undemonstrative and
inhibited. The expression of father/daughter love is important
to overcome these limitations. In spite of your shyness, you
will be deep and loyal with your feelings, though you may prefer
the company of older people to those in your age bracket. Your
creativity can lean towards sciences and inventions. You will
choose as a companion a serious and responsible person but it is
probable that you will have few children because you consider
them a great responsibility. You must learn to enjoy yourself
more and to express your emotions with the intensity with which
they occur.

Saturn in Gemini:

You express yourself clearly but you can have some
difficulty thinking about indefinite, intangible or abstract
ideas. You must learn to develop your intuition and also your
emotional responses because your ability to understand others
could be limited. It is important that you learn to be flexible
in your way of thinking and more relaxed in your manner of
communication. You will demonstrate in the future a great
ability to carry abstract ideas into real practice. This
position is very good for mental, scientific or mathematical
tasks. It is important that you study because your future
success depends in great measure on your knowledge.

Saturn Trine Uranus:

You have much willpower, initiative and an endless
determination. You combine your practicality with intuition and
you possess a great common sense, much administrative ability,
and you are persistent in your objectives. Inside you maintain a
balance between the old and the new, authority and your own
freedom. You will fulfill your duties responsibly but will seek
to accentuate your own independence; you need to work freely.
You will direct your creative energy effectively and will be a
hard and tenacious worker.
It mentions that it could be a difficulty for me, in other words, can be considered a foe:
Saturn in the Fifth House

You hold yourself back and have a habit of expressing the weaker
side of your personality first. Have courage in your self
expression and you will be able to help others and build a
bigger picture of yourself by doing so.
Bec

dadsnook2000
04-03-2006, 12:29
Those are some interesting quotes, I'm not sure what the source is, but they sure are quite comprehensive. You didn't say whether they were fully correct and applicable to you or not.

Whether those quotes were fully or mostly correct, keep in mind that one of the concepts that I am trying to convey in these posts are that it is highly useful to forget about collecting a lot of detail -- some of which may be right, some of which is not helpful -- and concentrate on the few or several things in a chart that are significant.

"Significant" means planets involved in tight aspectual relationships, planets that are angular or isolated planets that are located in one part of the chart away from the other planets, etc.

What we do with the few/several significant points is to grasp a single or a couple of sentances that provide a core, simple meaning. Build upon a few simple meanings THAT ARE MEANINGFUL and then there is no doubt about which of the zillion details (that books provide) to fit with the essential character. Now we get to being more accurate. More concise, Much more understandable to the client. Simplicity work best. Dave

rcb30872
04-03-2006, 12:45
Hi Dave

I got these from FutureMinders, it is a sight on the internet, sorry, don't have the link:
Saturn in 5th house:

You tend to be somewhat unemotional, undemonstrative and
inhibited. The expression of father/daughter love is important
to overcome these limitations.
This is true, I am all of the above. Unfortunately for me there was not much expression of father/daughter love.
Your creativity can lean towards sciences and inventions. You will
choose as a companion a serious and responsible person but it is
probable that you will have few children because you consider
them a great responsibility. You must learn to enjoy yourself
more and to express your emotions with the intensity with which
they occur.
Well, I did study Science. I do tend to prefer a serious and responsible partner, but not too serious ;). I have one child, and do not intend to have any more, yes, they are a great responsibility, a responsibility that sometimes I doubt whether I can handle effectively. Yes, I can be a bit of a wet blanket at times, and have great difficulty in expressing my emotions
Saturn in Gemini:

You express yourself clearly but you can have some
difficulty thinking about indefinite, intangible or abstract
ideas. You must learn to develop your intuition and also your
emotional responses because your ability to understand others
could be limited.
Don't necessarily agree with this!
It is important that you learn to be flexible
in your way of thinking and more relaxed in your manner of
communication. You will demonstrate in the future a great
ability to carry abstract ideas into real practice. This
position is very good for mental, scientific or mathematical
tasks. It is important that you study because your future
success depends in great measure on your knowledge.
Have to agree with the above. I have learnt to be more flexible in my thinking, or at least getting there, communication can be a bit strained, as I can have difficulty relaxing when communicating with others, but that is getting easier. I think that must be the case, as this forum is a great example of that. Scientific, studied science. Agree with the last statement as well, have always liked study, so that is not a problem for me
Saturn Trine Uranus:

You have much willpower, initiative and an endless
determination. You combine your practicality with intuition and
you possess a great common sense, much administrative ability,
and you are persistent in your objectives. Inside you maintain a
balance between the old and the new, authority and your own
freedom. You will fulfill your duties responsibly but will seek
to accentuate your own independence; you need to work freely.
You will direct your creative energy effectively and will be a
hard and tenacious worker.
Willpower, initiative and endless determination, yes, as long as I don't get hit by "procrastination". Common sense, most definitely, I can explain things to others which they have difficulty with, but in my mind it is obvious and very easy to understand. Love my freedom, but at the same time respect authority. Yes, I am a hard and tenacious worker, will not stop until the work has been finished, in some cases ;)

It mentions that it could be a difficulty for me, in other words, can be considered a foe:

Saturn in the Fifth House

You hold yourself back and have a habit of expressing the weaker
side of your personality first. Have courage in your self
expression and you will be able to help others and build a
bigger picture of yourself by doing so.
True, I do hold myself back. Tend to keep my thoughts and feelings to myself, and there are a lot of things that I would have liked to try, but not have done so, because I thought that I would only fail at it anyway. Not very good with self-expression.

Sorry, Dave, should have added my bits and pieces in earlier!!!

Bec

Elven
04-03-2006, 12:52
SATURN IN THE FOURTH QUADRANT
This placement puts your focus upon the issues that relate to how you are to function within the world and how you are going to be influential.

'Function' may have much to do with how I interact in the world and with others. This may have been the reason for searching firstly to find a 'psychological structure' which could adequately support a range of endevours, and secondly, working out what 'influence' is and how it worked.

Luckily, (if thats how it can be viewed) - I have been given the opportunity, and 'circumstantial freedom', to find and explore such avenues. But early in the process, lack of personal boundaries did not equate to 'freedom'. Finding 'structures' helped hone my energies, and intention, build foundations, from which then, I could find focus and purpose. It helped to some degree to stop the scattered and scrambled mentality and approach.


Ready or not, you are in the position of having "just graduated" and you seem destined to be thrust out kicking and screaming into the wide, wide world.

Time seemed to be an important factor - and 'feeling' that the 'sand was running through the hourglass' often was the catalst to move on - ready or not. I feel the influence of Saturn often kicked me along here, just when I was getting cosy too :)


Since we are talking about natal Saturn here, this means you will be "scramble" mode to keep pace with your challenges and then succeed and lead others along the paths you are just discovering for yourself.

This must be conecting with me on a deeper level of consciousness - I already feel tired just reading it. "Scramble" - can sometimes feel more like 'in earnst', a keen sense of timing, and preparation prior, are necessary components to be ready to 'present' coherantly, when the time arrives - and it usually does. Theres always the fear that I will miss the boat - yet I make sure everyone is on the boat first, and Im the last one to board. Maybe this is why I am always very early - or very late LOL!!


** Saturn in the 11th house **
Saturn will likely require that you grow, mature and strengthen yourself thru cooperative associations with others -- where you work within an overall strategy, where you are rewarded within the overall strategy. Influence of others, from others, is seen here. Saturn sees influence as a refinement of reality and can work within that reality.


I find this very interesting - for a few reasons. Firstly, my preference is to be alone at this age - but after reading this, I feel as if that could be quite detremental to what Im actually trying to achieve - whatever that is - as I am aware, from past experience, that being part of a wider community helps me (and others) to achieve for a wider purpose. Often though, what I have found, what confronts me, relates to my ability to 'attract' competition and bullying to myself in light of my efforts, where I loose my sense of self and 'ownership' of my contributions. Possibly then there are other influences tied into this lesson.
'Influence' seems to be the operative word here. Influence from others, and being myself influencial - this is not something I relish, as I find there is an enormous amount of responsibility attatched to this aspect. In a 'leadership' position, or a position of responsibility, I reach a certain point and collapse in a heap. I usually give up - as I feel a 'strong conviction of self' and a 'strong mind' is necessary to see things through - Sometimes I make neither of these things available to me (at the most critical time) and find myself running for the hills - or bowing out at 'gateway' moments of my process. This only serves to find myself having to start over again in another field - I dont just burn my bridges - I blow them sky high. Though I can conclude, that is my opinion, and I have the support from 'peers' who understand my cause and endevour - and often see it clearer than I can.

Blessings
Elven x

Is Saturn relevant anywhere else in my chart?

huredriel
21-04-2006, 02:19
You know I had a thought (amazing that eh) ..... trawling through some of these threads to help me with the Saturn and Jupiter thread!!

huredriel
Saturn in a yod with Uranus and Neptune gets a very bad review by Ebertin in his book The Combination of Stellar Influences -- a book which every single astrologer has and which every astrology student should have. He says that the key focus of Uranus/Neptune as a pair is "the elimination of the waking consciousness." And with Saturn involved, "depression, instability,pessimism. A painful loss, mourning or bereavement" when a transit occurs.
The bit about elimination of the waking consciousness ...... with my Saturn in Aries (and I also have my north node in Aries) I was wondering whether perhaps this is a big step in my karmic growth/development (Saturn) ....... trying to move to the higher self ...... the more unconscious planes and getting rid of the clutter and waste that is no longer needed (Saturn)?

dadsnook2000
23-04-2006, 12:35
Elimination, definition, scrapping that which isn't needed, refining, seperation of one thing from another -- this is much of what Saturn is all about. Contrast that with what Edgar Cayce once stated about Saturn . . . "Saturn is where you choose not to grow." It's hard to reconcile everything that has been written about Saturn.

Ebertin's views, while amazingly appropriate in many, many cases were first developed, applied, tested and restated during two major wars in Europe. Some consider his interpretations to be harsh. The Siderealists also have harsh things to say about Mars, Saturn, Pluto -- so these two groups (which I feel deeply affiliated with) are really down on Saturn in many cases. We each have to define our own Saturn, our own hell.

Seeing the context that the planet has to work in, how you have used it in the past, is all part of the art of the astrologer. So, I try to find softer ways of viewing and working with Saturn. I don't see a need to eliminate one's consciousness although having experiences in which we can work without its limitations can be useful and growth stimulating. Dave

rainwolf
24-08-2006, 07:44
So much to read!! I wish I had had more time to read this all when it was being avidly discussed, but school had to come first.

** Natal Saturn in the sixth house **
This "taking stock of me" house suites Saturn quite well. One seems capable of accepting what Saturn offers and is able to restructure rules, legacies, and the constraints of others so as to better ones work habits, effectiveness, and ability to help others along the way. Energy levels may be down and a lack of self-discipline may signify levels of depression from time to time.

I have also read that when a saturn in sixth seeks work, they will be somewhat stunted for 6 years (approx.) However, if you quit to find better work, it starts the cycle over! A friend of mine I read cards for was into astrology (about the time I started learning astrology), and she told me "whenever saturn leaves a house, he leaves a present at the door."

I have to say, I only believe saturn leaves a 'present' if you have learned what it was trying to teach. She was worried at the time because it was beginning to transit her 7th house. I havent been in contact with her since, unfortunately, but if I get to talk with her I'll see how that went.

Edited to add:
WHOOPS, this makes a big difference: I have a sun-saturn conjunction which changes the interpretation.

rainwolf
24-08-2006, 07:53
I also want to add something about the first house:


** Natal Saturn in the first house **
One appears cautious and reserved, especially in early life. A lack of confidence requires us to define strategies for success and acceptance. Being still and unnoticed until we map out the surroundings we find ourselves in is typical. Trying to get others to live by "the rules" often leads to frustration as we try to equate "our rules and constraints" against what others have or don't have for rules and constraints.

I have a friend who has saturn in the first house, and I found it to be a sign that in their early childhood (early--when their surroundings define who they are in the coming year), they had a setback of some sort.

She grew up in a bad neighborhood with some awkward neighbors (a foreign family was across the street, the grandma was known to come outside and proceed to urinate on the front lawn). Her family of 3 would eat fast food for meals, and sometimes they did not eat at all. Her parents had to work all the time. Her father turned out to be emotionally and somewhat physically abusive today.

So in a summary, I would think of saturn in the first house to say that it held back in an early stage (externally) that affected the core of the person. She has also had some stages of attention seeking.

dadsnook2000
24-08-2006, 11:03
Saturn is one of astrology's most important factors. We can study Saturn forever and still uncover lessons to learn and assimilate. If only one thing could be said of Saturn it is that "Saturn teaches us about life and ourselves within that life." If Saturn plays a strong role in your chart, don't fight it, go with the flow and just accept it. Doing so will reward you. Fighting against Saturn's lessons just isn't worth it. Star Trek's programs (on TV) about the alien race that always says, "resistance is futile, we will assimilate you" reminds me of Saturn's policies for us.

Its nice to see that some are still refering to prior-written material. Dave

Minderwiz
25-08-2006, 07:52
Astrologically, Saturn is as far away froom the Sun as you can get - shown by the Opposition of Aquarius, (Saturn's diurnal sign) from Leo. Traditionally Saturn is seen as Cold and Dry, which leads to it's association with structures, containers, and our bodies in general as containers for the soul and inparticular the skin and skeleton which give our bodies shape and form.

Saturn has always been seen as a more difficult planet to deal with than the rest - hence it's nickname as 'the greater malefic'. However Saturn is not always malefic - in it's diurnal sign of Aquairus it provides the impetus to scientific approaches and it's exaltation in Libra also provides Saturn with a strength that can bring success. Traditional Astrology gave several levels of strength or dignity to planets and in day charts (where the Sun is above the horizon) Saturn in Libra can be stronger and more dignified than Venus. Indeed Saturn above the horizon in your chart (houses 12 - 7) can be a lot more positive than Saturn below the horizon. The argument for this is that the sunlight warms Saturn and makes him more active and helpful. For those of you with Saturn in the tenth you might have a rather more beneficial teacher.

If you have aspects from Saturn to other planets or the ASC/MC it's well worth examining whether Saturn is dignified and therefore more inclined to be positive in your charts.

Saturn angular and direct shows an ability to act, so a First house Saturn in Libra trine to the Sun will provide you with a well disciplined and directed support for realising your aims. A poorly placed Saturn (sixth, eighth or twelfth) will weaken Saturn's ability to act and a debilitated Saturn (no positive dignity) gives you a Saturn that gets in the way.

This could show up as fear of the consequences causing you not to act on some opportunity, never being decisiive or simply procastination.

All of these can be overcome if you are aware of them. Directing and controlling your Saturn energy becomes the main feature of life after your first Saturn return.

M-Press
29-08-2006, 02:49
Glad this thread was pulled up - Thanks for everyone who shared their personal stories. it has been an amazing read...

My Saturn is in the 1st house, right on my AC, in Taurus.
It opposes pretty much everything - Sun, Jupiter and Venus (all in Scorpio).

I have felt Saturn tremendously in general, but the worst was on my Saturn return, around 29, when I was hit with both psychological but also physical problems (I had a 4 month long, violent allergic attack on my skin)--talking about Saturn having to do with skin. (and btw, i'm one fo those people that i'm never sick, but always have a rash somewhere)
After all this was gone, I rose like new, both from the inside and outside, let go of many rules (my own and imposed by others), and started a very creative time of my life, where I put a lot of structure (rules turning into structure) to my creative expression.

I like big undertakings, those that seem impossible at first, but then I break them into pieces and actually do it.

As a child, I grew up alone. My parents divorced when I was 4, and they each went off to another country to live, and I was raised by my grandparents. (I guess that has to do with "age" too). I was a happy kid for those who didn't really know me. Otherwise, I was very serious, asking always foundamental questions, and spending time with older people than kids my age.
Always quite reserved, as a teenager I totally didn't fit into the "scene" - although never really anti-social, just didn't want to give in to the trends. I had different kind of rebellions to act on...

Now, Saturn is better for me. I'm still always amazed, after a long lesson, thinking that I have "learned", then realising that I still can't graduate (life long, yes, life long...). Looking symbolically at Saturn, and being aware, really helps...
In general, I think maturity fits me and suits me. It allows me to feel better being me, than to conform to other's rules and regulations, for the sake of acceptance (a very important issue in the past).

rachnasingh
29-08-2006, 04:17
Saturn Capricorn 1348'30" 10th House retrograde

I found this for myself and i want to know if this is the reason of all the mental stress that i have been feeling since the age of 10 years . today i am 46 but i see no end to the mental tensions. i do have the "bouncing back" system in me but i have lately started feeling its getting tougher each day. i am organised and i am a constant strugler . people arround me are amazed with me but i feel i am empty inside

dadsnook2000
29-08-2006, 04:55
I also have Saturn Rx in the 10th house and can understand some of what you talk about. From time to time I first think that that is the best place for Saturn, while at other times I think its the worst place. It certainly is a position where we are always conscious of responsibility for this, duty for that, constraints that have to be considered.

I can't tell you much about your 10th house Saturn in isolation from your chart data other than what you can learn from reading the posts here in this thread. Perhaps you might want to post your data in our birth data section where any of us can review your chart layout and offer personal comments for you to consider. Dave

rachnasingh
29-08-2006, 05:11
I also have Saturn Rx in the 10th house and can understand some of what you talk about. From time to time I first think that that is the best place for Saturn, while at other times I think its the worst place. It certainly is a position where we are always conscious of responsibility for this, duty for that, constraints that have to be considered.
I can't tell you much about your 10th house Saturn in isolation from your chart data other than what you can learn from reading the posts here in this thread. Perhaps you might want to post your data in our birth data section where any of us can review your chart layout and offer personal comments for you to consider. Dave
how true any thing good to look up ?? i wonder if this will ever end . i read retrograde end with what we want ? how true or false?? thanks for telling me where to put in my birth data . i have done it there. since i am not from astrology if i have posted any thing extra there plz advice i will delete the same