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Fatima
14-06-2006, 14:42
This is a spin-off of a discussion with Miss Yuko about a Brasilian version of the Lenormand deck.

This is the best I am finding. Too bad I had once links where the full deck could be seen in bigger size. Plus I think there is another one with nicer drawings even, but can't seem to find it right now.

http://www.acartomante.hpg.ig.com.br/sigcigano.htm
http://www.jampers.com/ciganos/baralho.html

Some of the cards carry symbols and meanings quite different from what the French tradition has. I'd be interested to study similarities and differences...

I find this whole talk of gypsies so fascinating, particularly because I lived one year in Spain, a country where there is an actual gypsy community and culture yet the Lenormand cards are not any more used than anywhere else, and your typical "gypsy" card reader will read you from the Baraja espanola, the spanish naipes.
Why is it that in Brasil, the whole gypsy theme got so strong?...

F.

Fatima
14-06-2006, 14:58
Other ones! Not yet the one I am thinking of but still...

http://www.sabedoriamistica.com.br/materias/oraculos/baralhos/baralhoacigano/baralhocigano.htm
http://www.anaanciaes.com/cartomancia.html (also go to bottom of page to read your cards, you'll see yet a different deck)

I once read that some pais/maes de Santo, umbandistas etc. would reference the Orishas in some of these cards and could even read who owned you.

Mensageiro: Exu
O mar: Yemanja
Os ventos: Iansan
A arvore: Oshossi
The snake/o arco-iris: Dan
etc.

[edited] Another page, with some Orisha references.

http://www.baralhocigano.pop.com.br/cartasciganas.htm

F.

catlin
14-06-2006, 19:29
I remember this deck as I was also discussing it with miss_yuko.

Would be interesting to compare that deck with Bruno Bieri's "Zigeunerlenormand" (another Gypsy Lenormand deck by AGMüller).

Fatima
15-06-2006, 01:53
I remember this deck as I was also discussing it with miss_yuko.


Which one were you guys referring to?

F.

Saturness
15-06-2006, 14:30
Why is it that in Brasil, the whole gypsy theme got so strong?...

F.

I'm not sure either, but here, as you know, it's known as Gypsy Deck or Baralho Cigano. We have gypsies here too...we actually have all kind of people, Brazil is a big mix so many cultural characteristics from many people around the world aarrive and become a part of our culture...and we don't even know why. My grandma read the Baralho Cigano, without knowing it's a Lenormand deck or anything!

This deck here: http://www.sabedoriamistica.com.br/materias/oraculos/baralhos/baralhoacigano/baralhocigano.htm
I know it. It's clearly based on Lenormand, but has a different interpretation of some cards...i don't think they are completely new meanings. Just the author's interpretations IN THIS SITE that makes us confused, because in the links you showed me, there are sites that also use the 'different names', but the meaning is almost identical to the original French.

This is not the most used deck here though. The most used one is a Lenormand deck just like the French one, without the verses, with the same names we always know.

Really, you can see here: http://www.baralhocigano.pop.com.br/cartasciganas.htm
It's just a change of nice. The site i mentioned before...the author didn't interpret very well, he took the name of the cards too literally. Many Brazilians use those Lenormand based decks with the same meanings they use a normal Lenormand deck...it's all Baralho Cigano :P


Anyway, when studying Lenormand cards, it's important to study the cards deeper because...the site show really shalloe meanings. No card is 100% positive or 100% negative, like some sites point.
If you want, post a meaning of the card you think is too weird, and we compare it with the original French and see what is similar and what is totally different. Will help us to study!

Saturness
15-06-2006, 14:31
Which one were you guys referring to?

F.

I think the Baraja Española. I sent Caitlin one in a trade ;)
I use the Baraja Española, but not much for divination...i prefer to play Truco. Hehehehehehehe.

~Yuko

Fatima
16-06-2006, 00:15
I'm not sure either, but here, as you know, it's known as Gypsy Deck or Baralho Cigano. We have gypsies here too...we actually have all kind of people, Brazil is a big mix so many cultural characteristics from many people around the world aarrive and become a part of our culture...and we don't even know why. My grandma read the Baralho Cigano, without knowing it's a Lenormand deck or anything!

This deck here: http://www.sabedoriamistica.com.br/materias/oraculos/baralhos/baralhoacigano/baralhocigano.htm
I know it. It's clearly based on Lenormand, but has a different interpretation of some cards...i don't think they are completely new meanings. Just the author's interpretations IN THIS SITE that makes us confused, because in the links you showed me, there are sites that also use the 'different names', but the meaning is almost identical to the original French.

This is not the most used deck here though. The most used one is a Lenormand deck just like the French one, without the verses, with the same names we always know.

Really, you can see here: http://www.baralhocigano.pop.com.br/cartasciganas.htm
It's just a change of nice. The site i mentioned before...the author didn't interpret very well, he took the name of the cards too literally. Many Brazilians use those Lenormand based decks with the same meanings they use a normal Lenormand deck...it's all Baralho Cigano :P


Anyway, when studying Lenormand cards, it's important to study the cards deeper because...the site show really shalloe meanings. No card is 100% positive or 100% negative, like some sites point.
If you want, post a meaning of the card you think is too weird, and we compare it with the original French and see what is similar and what is totally different. Will help us to study!


Humm...
I was under the impression that quite a bunch of people were reading the cards in this fashion (O arco-Iris, os Obstaculos etc.).
I have at least 10 printouts from different sites with all the same approach... As if it was a new school or tradition that spun off from the Lenormand...
Anyways, in a few yahoo groups I belonged to, people had meanings different enough, but consistent enough among them members that you could tell they were not confused...
I was actually looking to see if any book had these different interpretations with some bit of history or background....
I personally think it is a local evolution, an adaptation to local issues and themes.

I'll start posting on a few cards in the study group area to see how we work it out.

My 2 main references are:

- "La Divination par les cartes du petit Lenormand" Erna Droesbeke
- "Apprenez a tirer les cartes avec le jeu de Mademoiselle Lenormand" Andre Stern et Chris Delor

Plus the little booklets that came with my decks (Mystical Lenormand and Lo Scarabeo's Lenormand).

I'll contrast with the "Brasilian" meanings I have found and we'll see were it takes us.

F.