Rider Waite 7 of Cups

[isthmus nekoi]

Has anyone ever noticed a little skull on the cup that holds the wreath? Was that image intentionally drawn?

Here's a link to the image:
http://www.learntarot.com/bigjpgs/cups07.jpg

TIA!

[HudsonGray]

I wonder if that means glory is fleeting? It's on the cup with the laurels.

[Thirteen]

Originally posted by isthmus nekoi
Has anyone ever noticed a little skull on the cup that holds the wreath? Was that image intentionally drawn?

Here's a link to the image:
http://www.learntarot.com/bigjpgs/cups07.jpg

TIA!

Kinda cool, actually. I think it emphasizes the warning of the card--that of illusion. The laurel lures, it's all about victory and fame and such. But that skull is waiting there, like a hungry animal, to pounce. The cup promises instant fame--but clearly it holds poison as well. Drink from it at your peril.

I'd say it was intentional by the way. The artist was way too careful with these cards to do something like that accidently. And it's very insightful. We see famous people, victorious people, and we think they're happy. But this is VERY much an illusion (the poem "Richard Cory" by Edward Arlington Robinson comes to mind). All you have to do is watch one of those "behind the music" biographies to see how getting exactly what you thought you wanted--overnight fame, riches, world-wide attention, international stardom--can very quickly lead to paranoia, misery, divorse, depression and death.

[Kiama]

I read somwhere that the cup which has the Skull and Laurel Wreath represents the dream of victory of death. The wreath is traditionally a symbol of victory and teh Skull a symbol of death....

Kiama

[Laurel]

I remember reading somewhere once that particular cup supposedly held the waters of Lethe, representing a spiritual death or death of consciousness brought on by over-indulgence in the material and a lack of awareness of consequences of one's actions.

Laurel

[Starfish]

Great thread, you guys! I love the details we can pick up in the cards. I'm adding the various ideas into my journal.

Blessings -

:TDEAT Starfish

[isthmus nekoi]

Wow, thanks!! I think all these ideas about the relationship b/w death and victory is interesting since 7 belongs to the Chariot. Gives the card a new level of meaning...

Does anyone know where I can read about the symbols in the other cups? I have to admit, I never gave them much thought before.

[divinerguy]

A mini-symbol dictionary can be found in "Tarot Companion" by Tracy Porter, published by Llewellyn, ISBN 1-56718-574-6.

[Val]

Originally posted by isthmus nekoi
Does anyone know where I can read about the symbols in the other cups? I have to admit, I never gave them much thought before.
From my notes, I have this on the symbolism in the 7 of Cups:

Mastering the Tarot by Eden Gray:
wreath of victory
red dragon of temptation (book says red dragon, not blue, no idea why)
serpent of jealousy
"The head with the curling hair might be a woman - or his ideal of himself. In the center is a draped figure, his own divinity waiting to be uncovered."

From Rachel Pollack's Seventy-Eight Degrees of Wisdom:
Jewels - wealth
Wreath - victory
Dragon - fear
Castle - adventure
Snake - universal symbol of psychic wisdom

A Touch of Tarot by Patricia Darrow:
(I have this web page in a bookmark, but can't seem to locate it in my sea of Tarot sites!)
Head - perfection of body
Castle - worldly power
Jewels - wealth
Wreath - fame (Skull - fame after death)
Dragon - power through the black arts
Snake - wisdom, knowledge
Veiled fortune - development of the Spirit, potential for profound realization

In her book, The Complete Book of Tarot Reversals, Mary K. Greer states:
"The apparitions arising from the cups in the RWS card could represent the seven deadly sins, fatal to spiritual progress, or they can represent the visions of a mystic or an artist."

[Yodes]

Hmm this is very interesting.

I read somewhere that it can be interpreted as an unachievable goal, something you want above all else. Must say that in light of all this information, i may have to look at this again.

[Thirteen]

Originally posted by Val

Wreath - fame (Skull - fame after death)

Hm. Gotta disagree with Patricia there. I can understand the notion--to want fame that will live on after you, but why bother putting that on the cup in the form of a creepy skull? I mean, why put the skull on there to distinguish wanting "Fame" after death as well as during life? Most people who want fame want both, period. Famous during their lifetime and forever after.

I just don't buy it.

Also, the skull is pretty creepy--waiting for someone to take the bait. At least, that's how it looks to me. Like a warning that the pretty laurel wreath is, indeed, an illusion. Or, put it another way, that--among other interpetations--fame isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[isthmus nekoi]

Thanks again for the info!

The 'veiled fortune' is interesting. Why is it veiled, and everything else revealed?...

I like the 7 vices vs 7 visions interpretation - it gives all the symbols a meaningful connection... It seems the only 2 symbols that are agreed upon are the jewels (wealth) and the wreath (fame/victory) :) I guess in reading for the other symbols, your own projections (or the querent's) would be very important then, since there seems to be no 'definitive' meanings.
ie. when I see the castle, I think of stones, stability, old age and possible decay. And for some reason, the head reminds me of a Greek sculpture (?!) and the veiled person, Jesus Christ, even though I am not Christian...

[the hermit]

If you look at Waite's book "The Pictorial Key to the Tarot" originally published in 1910 at the same time as the deck, you will notice that the skull is very visible in the uncolored plates that show the line drawings. I have an original deck and book, which are much cruder (especially compared with the Universal Waite and it's thinner lines and pastel coloring) than the versions available now

And the "classical-traditional" meaning often assigned to the card is, as others have pointed out, illusion.

Waite writes: "Fairy favours, images of reflection, sentiment, imagination, things seen in the glass of contemplation; some attainment in these degrees, but nothing permanent or substantial is suggested."

Whenever this card shows up, I think of illusionary rewards and always wonder what it is that the querent wants or thinks they want. I think of the old saw "better be careful what you ask for, you just might get it" and often say so out loud. The universe has always seemed to me to have a somewhat... peculiar sense of humor. It is often manifested (from my small point of view) in giving us what we think we want rather than what we need.

[Thirteen]

Originally posted by the hermit
Whenever this card shows up, I think of illusionary rewards and always wonder what it is that the querent wants or thinks they want. I think of the old saw "better be careful what you ask for, you just might get it" and often say so out loud. The universe has always seemed to me to have a somewhat... peculiar sense of humor. It is often manifested (from my small point of view) in giving us what we think we want rather than what we need.

Wow. Good call, Hermit. By the way, I was sent this by Lupo and thought I'd post my answer here as the "reply" won't let me send this long a post back. Also it's a very good point to share. Hope you don't mind Lupo--


lupo138 wrote on 08-08-2002 22:17:
With regard to fame and the skull, the following thought might be of interest for you: The ancient Romans believed that a person´s soul would be "alive" as long as it was remembered. So fame after death was pretty important and for many of them a main goal. Fame during a lifetime was not that important. Remember the person that was put near every victorious warlord, who was granted a triumph in Rome. The person had always to say: "Remember, you are just a human" to prevent the warlord from becomin a megalomaniac.


There are two points made here, and though you mix them, they are not one in the same:

1) The allure of fame after death--which I have no problem seeing as an allure. Absolutely people have and still do see fame after death as desirable, and often as far more important than fame in life. The Romans were hardly exclusive in that belief.

2) The reminder that fame, in life, is fleeting--which is the man whispering to the General--the Rennissance carried on this practice with "momento Mori" jewelry and art.

These are two different things. If the General wants fame AFTER DEATH and is lured by this, lusts after it, then, as any marytr will tell you, he should have died in battle rather than returning to be in that victory parade. As he is in the victory parade, he is now REMINDED that this fame is fleeting, illusory, not as good as fame after death. Afterall, if he was dead and his fame living on after, he'd need no reminder ;)

Which does the cup signify? I can buy #2--that it's a LURE to men wanting victory, but once they've got it in hand that ghostly skull appears, whispering them that they're "only human!" and such fame is all ILLUSION. What I DON'T buy is that it could be #1--that it symbolizes the allure of fame after death.

Put it another way, if this image--the skull-cup with the wreath in it--was really intended to mean the allure of "Fame after death", then it is poorly indicated. You don't create something as creepy and chilling as that eerie, ghostly skull unless you want to KILL the positive. A person will reach for that laurel wreath, no question. But they won't reach for that skull cup unless they've a maryter complex. Which, alas, we know far too many people have. But in most of my readings, I'd say that the person I'm reading for would rather reach for those laurels in hope of a victory parade. Yes, they want a big funeral, too, but they want the parade first.

My belief, if they saw that skull on the cup, they'd reject the cup--the skull is too scary, it does not, as you suggest, indicate that "fame after death...pretty important and...a main goal." Besides, how does such a belief work with the card which is about a person going after ILLUSIONS, not something real?

In short, if your point is that the cup reminds the person who grabs for that wreath that they're only human, that victory parades are all illusion, then I'm in total agreement with you. But if your point is that the cup could be the allure of "fame after Death" then no, I still don't buy it. Just IMHO, there.

[the hermit]

Originally posted by Thirteen
In short, if your point is that the cup reminds the person who grabs for that wreath that they're only human, that victory parades are all illusion, then I'm in total agreement with you. But if your point is that the cup could be the allure of "fame after Death" then no, I still don't buy it. Just IMHO, there.
I'd have to agree with Thirteen too.
The entire card has definite transitory, illusionary, fleeting imagery for me too.
But thought I might disagree, "fame after Death" is certainly an interesting interpretation.

[lupo138]

dear Thirteen !

it was just athought, that I wanted to tell you, nothing more. But I gained a lot out of your arguments and views, thank you. To hit the point, at least this time: I really agree to all you said and it really helped me a lot and spared me a lot of own work :) So thank you again.

[Thirteen]

Originally posted by lupo138
dear Thirteen !

it was just athought, that I wanted to tell you, nothing more. But I gained a lot out of your arguments and views, thank you. To hit the point, at least this time: I really agree to all you said and it really helped me a lot and spared me a lot of own work :) So thank you again.

Went overboard again didn't I? Sorry, sorry, I'll be good--I was on a roll last night and just couldn't shut m'self up ;)

[firemaiden]

I wish we could attach the later thread on this subjet to this one. In the later 7 of cups thread http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10354
some of us went seriously bonkers delving into the symbolism, real and imagined. Pollux wrote, the laurel and the skull are the image of Eternity and Time.

Dear Thirteen, please go overboard as much as you wish, I love it.

[rota]

Maybe the skull on the Laurel cup simply means that Fame is of the physical. Which is to say, Fame is useless after we've shucked off our bodies following 'death'.

[Pollux]

Fame to me represents the award for a soul who gains eternal life through their hard work and achievements - their name shall be remembered way after their death. Fame is what goes beyond the physical, marking our names on the tiles of history (not Sunset Boulevard, but similar *LOL*).
Probably my way to see it is just an effect of the classical anachronistic influences around here - yet that's why we love Tarot: so many things to look at and so many different ways to interpret them!!! :D

[paradoxx]

To me the wreath is symbolic of victory, and the skull is the price that must be paid. Sometimes the price of victory is death, other times it is a sacrifice of some kind. Either way, victory is not cheap so be aware.

[Dasani]

"...symbols of the gifts and tests to be handled during this life. These seven are:vanity, fame, ego illusion, jealousy, frivolity and glamour. All are nebulous(floating on clouds). They represent what the worldly person imagines are desirable, but as they are attained on by one, it is realized that they do not bring happiness or any real value in life".

This was in my notes.

I use this card for "the challenge of choosing".

Just extra info.

[inanna_tarot]

Originally posted by Laurel
I remember reading somewhere once that particular cup supposedly held the waters of Lethe, representing a spiritual death or death of consciousness brought on by over-indulgence in the material and a lack of awareness of consequences of one's actions.

Laurel

Emperors of Rome and Caesar springs to mind here!
With all their power they were stabbed in the back or just wackos like Nero. Death of the pure and victory to the not so pure?

Sezo
x

[ScarabFlight]

Another thought for the shrouded figure is that it relates to Masonry. From what I understand, it could be symbolic of De Molay being wrapped in a shroud after being beaten and questioned about Masonic secrets. It is also a part of the initiation ceremony in becoming a Mason. This could symbolize being brought into the inner circle and having access to "secret knowledge".

[gloria]

I can't believe I hadn't noticed the skull on the cup before now.
Have found these threads really interesting...but can someone tell me what the 'red fringing' around the shrouded figure symbolises?
G.

[WalesWoman]

Originally posted by ros
"...symbols of the gifts and tests to be handled during this life. These seven are:vanity, fame, ego illusion, jealousy, frivolity and glamour. All are nebulous(floating on clouds). They represent what the worldly person imagines are desirable, but as they are attained on by one, it is realized that they do not bring happiness or any real value in life".



Great quotes from your notes, Ros. It made me think of the seven deadly sins...that never seem so deadly when you are persuing them, on the surface they seem to be some of these things that seem to be worthy or have some value, but truly are feeding an ego or something empty inside that needs filled. Or maybe that is the whole point, there is an emptiness there that the person is trying to fill from the outside, rather than finding something of greater value within. And maybe that is why there is a skull, with gaining their desires comes the realization that it really isn't life at all, just a more glamourous emptiness. It reminds me of the live in the "now" concept, that sometimes we get so caught up in postponing happiness until things get just right, life will be good once this happens, or I get this or that, that we never get to enjoy what we have right now, time passed and suddenly you find yourself at Death's door, wondering where time went and why you were never satisfied, why that happiness and completion never occured, because there was always something else that needed to be attained before you could say you had it. It is the "Dream on" card. When I get it, I know I'm just having pipe dreams, usually great, unrealistic ones and need to get back to work and focus on creating attainable goals or maybe I just need to appreciate what I do have and make the most of it.

[mmajere]

"the 7 of cups"

it is usually time for choices - but probably the choices we make lead us to get near or further from the goals. the mists that hold the cups by the hands or forces that are all misery. when you get in mist you shall count on your nose, ears and touching/tasting abilities rather then the eye. (but if you have your 3rd one opened there are no mists for you.) in the second cup down from the right that has leaves of ceaser; there is a kind of reflection - a skull kind - of eyes and nose. this can mean first of all we all look the same cup or the cup is held by something old or not good.