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sunstallion
19-07-2006, 17:19
First of all, I dont think my knowledge is good enough to make any judgements. I dont mean to offend any astrologers in here. I just want to share with you this story.

I talked to a lady who work at a home that adopt children who dont know their parents are, like they got lost when they were young. This woman works with children came from all over the world like from Africa, India, Korean, etc... She knows astrology, tarot, and palm. She told me that of all the three disciplines. Tarot is the most practical to her. She cant use astrology to help the children because they dont have their exact birth information. Sometimes, if she does readings over telephone or emails, she cant do palm reading. But with tarot, she can use it with telephone, emails or in-person.

Lynda
19-07-2006, 20:06
There's a lot of information that can be gleaned from a chart without a time of birth. I didn't think this years ago and would turn people down when they requested readings. A lot can be seen in a chart for the day as one's Sun, Mercury, Venus, etc, don't move very far in the course of the day. There's far more information, IMHO, in doing an astrology chart than there is in employing the tarot (although I'm definitely into the tarot, don't get me wrong!!).

A chart is absolutely invaluable in conveying information that other disciplines do not. Further, I add the extra dimension of the Sabian Symbols, as they are enormously edifying about a person's life.

A simple solution to the dilemma of an unknown birthtime is to calculate the birthchart with the sun on the ascendant. This tells you reams about the life of the person...

seaweed
19-07-2006, 20:56
Excellent reply, Linda!

Sunstallion,

In addition to astrology (and almost every culture on earth has a system of astrology,) most palmists worth their salt can tell volumes about a person's early life, childhood, personality traits, potential struggles, how someone has/will deal with obstacles, potential health problems, innate gifts, areas where they will be protected from some outcome, their over-all constitution (how well do they weather situations) and they can get some perspective on a person's future.

Almost every culture has a system of reading symbols and divining a person's future/personality, typically this deals with some mark on a person's hands, feet, head or face but it can also include events that happened at the time of birth (for instance, babies born with a cowel are said to have the gift of second sight.) For instance, palmistry has its roots in India (where they have even read the dermal ridges on peoples' feet--it's said that the Buddha had a number of symbols on his feet that showed that he would be a wise man and spiritual leader.)

Tarot has a lot of flexibility, but in conjunction with other disciplines--like palmistry and astrology and even intuitive flashes--it has the potential to yield much more information. Astrology touches on all these fields.

(I'm just hoping this woman isn't placing children in homes based only on tarot info...)

Thank you for sharing your story, Sunstallion :)

leephd
19-07-2006, 22:07
What this woman's statement actually reflects is the sad ignorance of most of astrology that is so present today, even among those who profess to "know" it. Horary astrology, that portion devoted to answering questions, does not require a birth chart, and can do everything that Tarot can do. And frankly, it's been around a lot longer historically, and has at least as rich a language base as Tarot. Unfortunately, it also makes a lot of modern astrologers gag, and like the rest of astrology, requires some honest effort and time to learn. It's the latter whch s porbably why modern astrologers have dclared it a "speciality," whereas no ancient astrologer would leave home without it.

To be precise, Tarot, horary astrology and I Ching are all divinatory techniques. You get somewhat different perspectives from them, which is precisely why the study of multiple divinatory techniques can be so incredibly revealing.

Minderwiz
20-07-2006, 02:46
As someone who tried to bring Horary to these boards in the past, I cannot agree more. The problem tends to be not so much in accepting Horary as a divinatory method as in trying to get to grips with the practical application - it becomes easier to reach for the tarot deck than consult Lilly (or your own excellent 'Martial Arts'). It is. though well worth the investment of time and energy because the detail that can be gleaned from a horary chart (for me) goes well beyond anything that I have achieved with tarot.

Elven
20-07-2006, 03:53
It is possibly one of my regrets thus far, that I'm not a competant astrolger, but more Tarot, Numerology, and Sabian Oracle reader. Though I recommend to my clients the gift of getting an astrology reading and they can easily plot their readings into.
Astrology used with the other disciplines, as well as a number of other methods, you can have a rich illustration of many aspects of your life, not just a sketch.

Blessings
Elven x

Nevada
20-07-2006, 04:50
I can see where it wouldn't be as practical if all the birth data isn't available for the children she works with. (I don't know horary, so can't comment on that.) But for someone for whom the birth data is known, I'd consider astrology more practical than Tarot, because there are absolutes involved, concrete cycles that can be relied on. I find it very helpful, when I'm having problems, to spend a little time checking on my current transits, and very often find my answer there. It provides information I need to deal with the effects and move forward. I can't say I get nearly as definite an answer from Tarot, because so much depends on interpretation.

Much as I love Tarot, I find astrology to be quite practical in that it's less ambiguous.

Nevada

Minderwiz
20-07-2006, 05:03
There are unfortunately a lot of 'variables' in Astrology - planets, houses, signs at the least (OK Dave, planets and longitudes :) ). Then there are the variations in terms of application, - horary is not quite the same as natal.

For some this can seem like trying to learn a massive rule book, which is enough to put anyone off. I certainly found that the first part of my astrological career (such that it is) involved trying to sort the wood from the trees. However, relatively early on I began to find an approach which suited me - in my case a traditional approach (I keep to the traditional rulerships for example). Once an approach appeals then reading can be relatively selective and a path for self development opens up and I reached a clearer understanding of astrology and my relation to it.

One of the advantages of the traditional approach is that it still keeps open the use of horary, or the use of event charts. It tends to focus more on what happens in the real world rather than in the mind and as such it can be practically highly useful.

Horary can help an interested party (the querent) learn significant and useful information about something (the quesited) in order to make more informed decisions. And its so much more satisfying than the rather simplistic natal astrology that magazines and newspapers often seem to promote.

dadsnook2000
20-07-2006, 09:07
As Minderwiz notes, there are a lot of astrological techniques that can be used other than what many on this list think of as "classical natal astrology." I don't need a birth time to do a pretty good chart reading. Sure, it helps greatly and adds a lot of detail if you have full chart data. As someone who does both and has done so for quite some time its my opinion that astrology can do far more than tarot in many areas. Yet for some things, tarot is better. They are, after all, two different systems and are not parallel in their strengths and weaknesses.

PS, I'm back from vacation.

Dave

Minderwiz
20-07-2006, 09:22
Dave - nice to see you again, hope you had a good vacation!

tink27
20-07-2006, 10:00
As someone who tried to bring Horary to these boards in the past, I cannot agree more. The problem tends to be not so much in accepting Horary as a divinatory method as in trying to get to grips with the practical application - it becomes easier to reach for the tarot deck than consult Lilly (or your own excellent 'Martial Arts'). It is. though well worth the investment of time and energy because the detail that can be gleaned from a horary chart (for me) goes well beyond anything that I have achieved with tarot.

I couldn't agree with you more! Doing a horary chart does take patience but the rewards are worth the effort. It has never lead me astray....the truth awaits us among the heavenly spheres.

tink

sunstallion
20-07-2006, 16:14
I still dont get it. What if you dont know your birthdate at all, an expert astrology can still analyze yourself ? because I have talked to some people who grew up in that organization, who really have no idea what their birthdates are. They dont even have a clue of what month, day they were born on. One came from the poor country of Africa and the other came from Korea.

Minderwiz
20-07-2006, 19:18
I still dont get it. What if you dont know your birthdate at all, an expert astrology can still analyze yourself ?

It depends what you mean by 'analyze'. From the horary perspective there is no need to know any details of your birth to answer questions such as, 'are your parents still alive?' or 'where are your parents now?' which are the sort of questions that might have been important to the woman mentioned at the start of this thread. There are a myriad of other questions about you that could also be answered, including 'what type of person is this?' Horary requires that the question carries real importance for the person asking the question (the querent) and not simply idle speculation and also that the meaning of the question is clear to both querent and astrologer. The English Astrologer, William Lilly, claimed to be able to describe physically people from his horary charts (querents often simply asked their question by letter,so he did not physically meet them).

I'll leave Dave to explain his own approach to such circumstances and any limits on the accuracy of the natal details that he would adhere to.

Lynda
20-07-2006, 22:36
Hi Sunstallion

No, if you don't know your birthdate at all, astrology can't help you analyse yourself, you are right.... you can get a lot from no birth time, if you know the day, but if you don't know the day, there's no frame of reference to analyse your character.

In this argument, we've been mixing apples and oranges - I misread your post initially, thinking you meant no birthtime was available... no birth date is a very different story. In this case, using horary, as Leephd suggest, one can answer questions, just like one can with tarot, but analysing one's character is not so easy.

I hope this answers your question!

dadsnook2000
21-07-2006, 00:00
Sunstallion, astrology has its uses -- even when a birth date (as well as a birth time) are not known. As Minderwiz points out, Horary charts can be cast for the time/place a question is posed and can provide accurate and useful information.

Just as "Horary" charts are for a question, we can also use "Event" charts to help a person understand their situation and their future. What is an "Event" chart in this sense? From time to time each of us encounters a momentus event, happening or cognitive awareness that greatly impacts us. If we did know our birth chart then this event would show up relative to that chart. Since we don't know (for discussion purposes) the birth chart, we can still use the event chart to see how it can impact us. Using the event date/time as a type of birth chart, we can use Sidereal Solar Return techniques to see how that event will manifest over time.

I have done this many times. One current example is on another list that I moderate where I have been following Iraq's developing government process thru its several elections and now thru the major events that occur relative to the Dec. 15th 2005 election. These techniques are probably not for most intermediate students of astrology but they are useful and professional-level astrologers can certainly utilize them if they are familiar with the techniques that Sidereal astrologers use.

Well, thats my contribution to the discussion. I'm not looking to do work of this nature to prove a point as I have a very busy couple of months ahead of me, but I just wanted to note that astrology has its uses outside of being based on natal astrology. Dave

Minderwiz
21-07-2006, 00:34
Well, thats my contribution to the discussion. I'm not looking to do work of this nature to prove a point as I have a very busy couple of months ahead of me, but I just wanted to note that astrology has its uses outside of being based on natal astrology. Dave

I know the feeling!

But you are absolutely right to stress the main point of your post. Too often Astrology is seen to begin and end with 'natal' astrology when i'natal' work is only a small part of the tradition. Indeed the Independence Day forecast thread shows that 'mundane' Astrlogy is still alive well and this branch used to be seen as the most important branch. What happened to the country was seen to be far more important than individual people or individual questions.

leephd
21-07-2006, 22:45
I still dont get it. What if you dont know your birthdate at all, an expert astrology can still analyze yourself ? because I have talked to some people who grew up in that organization, who really have no idea what their birthdates are.

There's a line attributed to Maslow to the effect that, "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Prior to approximately 1900, astrology wasn't used to study personality at all. That's because nobody talked about it, nobody though in those terms, and nobody went to an astrologer to say, "Tell me who I am." Astrology never developed to tell anybody who she/he is: that's merely an outgrowth of Alan Leo's quest to keep from being arrested again for fortune-telling. (I'm not joking. If you want to read the history of how we got modern natal psychological astrology, then read Patrick Curry's book, Confusion of Prophets.) Notice that I'm not sayng astrology cannot or shouldn't delve into personality: I'm merely pointing out that this obsession with personality is essentially a 20th century one.

For long before that, the natal reading was a predictive affair not unlike a modern Vedic reading. Natal and horary in those days wasn't so far apart. Good natal rediction required a good time - but a good time was almost never available. Rectification was rampant. But many people stuck to horary - precisely because you could ask about whatever was bothering you in the moment.

star-lover
22-07-2006, 03:21
First of all, I dont think my knowledge is good enough to make any judgements. I dont mean to offend any astrologers in here. I just want to share with you this story.

I talked to a lady who work at a home that adopt children who dont know their parents are, like they got lost when they were young. This woman works with children came from all over the world like from Africa, India, Korean, etc... She knows astrology, tarot, and palm. She told me that of all the three disciplines. Tarot is the most practical to her. She cant use astrology to help the children because they dont have their exact birth information. Sometimes, if she does readings over telephone or emails, she cant do palm reading. But with tarot, she can use it with telephone, emails or in-person.

at the end of the day you use which ever discipline you find best, are more at ease at, get answers out of
one is not better than the other - its what works for you
some people are natural astrologers others find it too complex
some people can see tonnes of truths in the cards others struggle
just take what works for you
but you cant compare all the divinatory systems and say one is better than the other in general - they are all part and parcel of it all!!! xx its like a milk tray chocolate box - pick youre favourite lol