French and english interpretation of swords.

hello

Why french interpretation of swords cards are phylosophical and related to mental world while english meaning for tjis suit is more harsh?

Then, existing both different ways of interpreting swords, which to take?

Hi,

what are the french interpetations? thanxs.

Hello

with these two terms I am referring to both ways of interpreting cards:

When I say ' English' I am referring to that related to the world of Golden Dawn, and Rider Waite.

Regarding 'French' schemes, It is about the tradition of Marseille´s tarot.
Here the meaning of the 56 minor arcana is, lets say. more abstract than the other way; above all when we are speaking og swords, which in this way are seen more as mental and spiritual phenomena rather than war and violence aspects. I donñt know if I am expressing myself clearly. Perhaps anyone knows about what I am speaking and can clarify it more.

Not sure what you mean. Both french and english 'occult' schemes generally agree with each other in terms of the pip cards [the greatest disparity coming from the attribution of hebrew letters to the trumps and fool], both 'rooted' in Levi and vau, 'air', 'intellect', ect. There is an older french and english cartomanic tradition which do not see swords as 'air', 'intellectuall' or 'philosophical' terms but in largely negative terms [for example see C.de M'*** essay in Gebelin's 'Monde Primitif' which describes a cartomanic tradition in which all 'sword' cards excepting the ace are 'bad', equating as he does the french suit of spades with the italian swords]. So the disparity would seem not to be between sectarian french and english occult schools but between them and older cartomanic traditions.

Thereagain maybe French authors like Papus develop meanings from a purely sectarian cabbalistic scheme, whereas for example Waite includes meanings from numerous and often conflicting sources, including the cartomantic [for example from Chambers the English, and probably indirectly through Etteilla the French]. So that the English may seem 'harsher' because it has retained or incorporated more of the older cartomantic [French and English] meanings whereas the French 'occult' schools have been more thorough in rejected these in making DM's consistently conform to their system of 'occult' correspondences? Assuming that your observation is indeed correct.

Kwaw

I do not think there is so much as a difference between the French and the English ways of reading the sword as either from a more philosophical or 'harsh' manner, but rather depending on the style of the author.

There are some 'broader' general differences but, on the whole, there is in both francophonic and anglophonic countries a great number of descriptions that claim a sword - air - intellect connection.

Here it may therefore simply be a reflection of the materials read.

Of course, in both English and French there are also descriptions of sword with fire, between sword and water, and between sword and earth. These last two, of course, seemingly far less familiar than the other two.

I would not claim, then, that there are 'French' and 'English' interpretations of the cards, but rather various interpretations in both languages, expressed, undoubtedly, in idiosyncratic fashion.

For example:

Have you read P. Marteau´s The Tarot of Marseille? Read the sword´s meanings.

duplicate post

Hmmm, English vs French readers may agree if they are both reading Marseille cards, but if you compare common card interpretations from RWS (read "English tradition") readers vs Marseille readers, there will be quite a dichotomy in the swords department, yes. Read our "How may it be read?" thread on the "Three of swords (which I just can't find by search!!)

Hi alexev

I sometimes see Swords as relating to air and I sometimes see them as 'swords', or other cutting tools. I have also seen the Ace of Swords (Marseilles) as a celebration card. I think it depends on what is seen in the card at the time of the reading and doesn't necessarily mean that Swords have to be related back to an element.

I'm not sure you are asking about personal ways of reading though.

alexev said:

For example:

Have you read P. Marteau´s The Tarot of Marseille? Read the sword´s meanings.

Click to expand...

No i haven't.

Can you quote and compare to an English source? Personnaly I suspect your 'impression' is the result of your reading. Give us quotes and comparisons, then we might know where your coming from and answer appropriately. I suspect your impression is the result of a limited reading. There is I think a dichototamy between cartomantic and sectatian occult schools, but not in this respect between French and English.

Can you give some evidence of such? If true we can possibly follow the evidence. OK you think the English tradition is 'harsher', but upon what basis? Quote and compare please. Give us some references to go upon [translating the French if you can, this is an English site]. As I understand it most french books ignore the minors altogether and concentrate on the trumps and fool.

Kwaw