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Fulgour
24-09-2006, 08:30
The houses can be divided into three groups of four:

The first, fourth, seventh and tenth houses are known as
the Angular houses, and are each ruled by a Cardinal sign.

The second, fifth, eighth and eleventh houses are known as
the Succedent houses, and are each ruled by a Fixed sign.

The third, sixth, ninth and twelfth houses are known as
the Cadent houses, and are each ruled by a Mutable sign.

Just as the qualities determine a sign's mode of expression,
a given house can be particularly:

Active (Angular) Cardinal
Determined (Succedent) Fixed
Flexible (Cadent) Mutable

The Cardinal Signs are the initiators. Their common
characteristics include action and drive; they have
initiative and strong motivation.

The Fixed Signs dedicate themselves to seeing projects through to
completion. Their common characteristics include determination
and persistence; they are stable and self-reliant.

The Mutable Signs are flexible, they're happy to fill an assigned role.
Their common characteristics include adaptability and changeability;
they are flexible and versatile.


Gleaned variously from Astrology.com

dadsnook2000
24-09-2006, 09:05
The houses are divisions of local space based one of a few coordinate systems, and are determined to have boundaries relative to their type of projection upon the zodiac -- the zodiac, Tropical or Sidereal or other, is merely used as a convenient measuring tool so that we can construct a flat, two-dimensional chart.

What I disagree on:
Because of this, no house is ruled by any sign in terms of the angular houses being ruled strictly by the cardinal signs, the succedent houses by the fixed signs, and the cadent houses by the mutable signs. If any house is "ruled" by any sign then it would be logical that it be ruled by the sign that happens to be on its cusp. And sometimes, because the houses are based on a totally different system than the zodiac, two successive houses may be ruled/associated with the same cuspal sign and/or a house may have a cuspal sign that is not the successive sign to the prior house.

The rest of your post can be seen as valid in general but not everyone would agree with it in total as there are several schools of thought relative to angles and houses and the strength of planets in various areas of the chart.

To cite one major example, the French researchers, the Gauquelins, found in their life-long astrological research that planets expressed most powerfully around the angles, the power area of the MC (for example) starting some 10 degrees into the 10th house and covering the MC and into the 9th house by some 10+ degrees -- areas which you label as cadent, flexible, etc. This is not so for sport figures, doctors, musicians, businessmen, financiers and other notables who excelled in their field of endeavor.

I'm not in any way trying to be argumentative here, but we have a lot of early-studies students here and we owe it to them to be as precise as we can relative to what we know for certain, what is generally accepted, what seems to work sometimes, what doesn't work very very and what is not at all acceptable or proven in any way. Dave

Fulgour
24-09-2006, 09:43
Thanks :) Dave! The way I feel about it is The Houses
don't really exist (they are static, life has movement),
except in that they serve as imaginative CONSTRUCTS
by which we can better "define" the very active Signs.

For instance, the Encyclopaedia Britannica calls the
mutable houses "common" with NO other definition~
elsewhere, I find mutable ~ but never really defined.

dadsnook2000
24-09-2006, 10:26
Fulgour, I have strong feelings about signs (I don't like to use them as a rule) and mixed feelings about houses (I use them to a degree) but I do like the use of chart angles. Angles are areas where things happen. But, I digress. Lets consider, for the fun and interest of it, how/why angularity and houses might tend to have an impact upon us.

We are born. We have spent several dark, warm months during which we became aware of somethings, but then, we were born. A sudden experience of some consequence! Our awareness level and inputs multiply across a wide spectrum. Lets consider the consequences of experiencing just astrological inputs.

Two minutes after we are born, the Moon arises over the horizon. The "pull" and flow of feelings and basic body responses that we felt in the womb are now magnified upon our independant body. We need everything, we respond greatly to every feeling and local stimuli -- all of a sudden we are alive in a way we weren't before. Two hours later Mars pops up. Energy, the need to express ourselves and struggle against blankets. Wake up. We have three diverse inputs (I didn't mention we were born late in the afternoon, so the Sun is present); Mars, just up; Moon, which we are getting used to; and Sun, which seems to be a comforting, stabelizing thing.

Then, disaster. The Sun disappears. We are subject to needs and bodily functional happenings, everything about us, around us now takes up all our attention. The "comfort" has gone. Panic, confusion. We struggle with our new Mars energy, angry at the things that bother us.

Neptune slips into view. We don't notice. But, we find that a quietude seems to grow around us, the inputs of heat, softness, comfort, light, -- they all difuse and we rest. After a couple of sleep periods, Moon disappears and with it the flurry of responses. Jupiter pops up over the horizon, followed by Saturn. We stop, we start to grasp the idea of touch and feeling in our body, then we doubt the sensations. What is this mixture of energy, feelings?

Hours later, Sun comes back. Will it stay? It feels good. Moon goes away. We don't feel so paniced now, we rest, we enjoy. As Mars also drops from sight we sleep soundly.

So, does the rise, culmination and setting of planets provide some sort of rhythmic cycle that we respond to. Does the shifting Moon rise, almost an hour later each day, change the impact of other planetary influences as we start to get used to "our" cycle as we experience it "at our location"? Is it this early imprinting that makes our chart "real" and relevant to us as individuals?

If we pick up on these rhythms, what forms the "angles" or highly sensitive areas for us, for our "chart"? Do we recognize the relative time from when we were born relative to the Sun's regular appearance and disappearance? Do we set our personal chart angles based on when a planet rises? If we do, do we recognize the time/spacial interval from when a planet next rises -- OR DO WE JUST RESONATE WITH THE FIRST PLANET TO RISE, MAKING THAT OUR ASCENDANT! That is something to think about.

If angles are important, why/what about houses? What would make them important or significant or meaningful. Are houses a result of social or cultural phenomena or are they a "span" of meaning behind the "meanings" given to the angles? How do you conceptually move from the ASCendant (I feel, I experience, I am here) to the MC (I am important, I have achieved, I can be seen and heard). Do you have to have a transformation from being "me focused" to recognizing that change is part of life (12th house meaning) and that friends and organizational structures (11th house meaning) will get me to the 10th house? If this is true, why do the houses go the other way to get to the 10th?

How do we account for the fact that the rising sign and degree moves quickly to the MC after we are born, about five to seven hours later? How does this fit with the way astrology and houses are taught?

A little thought can raise a lot of questions. Thanks for taking my earlier response with good grace. I think we can have more productive fun by looking at the basics and questioning them. Dave

Fulgour
26-09-2006, 00:31
"Houses" exist on paper, and work well there.
To study a Sign you basically need a House...
but any meaning the House has is of the Sign.

Adding the Houses to a chart interpretation is
just the first step down the slippery slope to~
astrological divination~ like crystal ball gazing.

That's good! It's fun! And best of all, nice. :love:

star-lover
26-09-2006, 05:34
i dont see how the houses are redundant

they are areas of life tangibly for the planets and signs in tandem to work out in - couple of examples

ie 5th house is your love life, dates, romance

9th house is your university/life learning life/ultimate beliefs

they are a tangible area in which to think about your planets and signs and how they work out? no?

etc etc

dadsnook2000
26-09-2006, 08:08
Star-lover, houses are a puzzle to some. I've tried in the past to explain them to those who confuse them with signs are just don't know what to do with them. Your reply to Fulgour post does remind me that houses probably can't be explained enough. So, if you choose to pitch in and amplify what I say, please do so and perhaps we can together help everyone out.

SIGNS are not just zones that form a circular reference in the sky. The SIGNS are defined relative to the plane of Earth's orbit about the Sun. TROPICAL SIGNS are, today, further defined (in terms of their starting point or Aries point) by the tilt of the Earth's axis away/towards the Sun in different points along the Earth's orbit. This axis tilt is (generally speaking) constant in that it points in one direction but as the Earth moves around the Sun, that northern pole of the tilted axis points more toward the Sun (the northern hemisphere's Summer) at one point and further away from at an opposite point in the orbit (the norther hemisphere's winter). Of course, inbetween those two points we have two points where the tilt is "sideways" to the Sun and therefore we experience Spring and Fall.

For SIDEREAL SIGNS we have a different situation. I had mentioned previously that the Earth's tilted axis constantly points in one direction. That is not strictly true because that axis wobbles about a small circle one every 25,000 years or so. We don't really notice this in one lifetime unless we are very observent. Both Tropical and Sidereal signs have a relationship to the constellations of similar names due to the fact that early star-sciences and star-religions used the constellations as a reference point. Once mathematics developed and astronomical measurements became known and used, those who practiced these "sciences" and "arts" migrated to the use of a carefully constructed measuring tool in which twelve 30 degree zones were defined. The constellation names were kept but their irregular locations and spans of space were dropped. The "new" method was to use the 30 degree segments and a convenient "starting point." For Tropicalists, that was the Aries point. For Siderealists, the start of various signs was measured relative to certain bright and meaningful fixed stars.

Because of the Earth's axis and its 25000 year wobble, the Tropical Aries Point appears to slide backwards against the Sidereal or fixed star backdrop, sliding about 1 degree every 72 years. Back around 213 AD the two zodiacs were aligned but are now almost a full sign apart.

THIS LEADS US TO AN EXPLANATION OF HOUSES !!!

Now that we know a bit about how signs are defined, lets look at houses. Houses are primarily a function of the Earth's daily rotation which brings the Sun into view and out of view. There are a number of mathematical constructs that determine exactly how the house divisions are arrived at. When we deal with spherical geometry we can use a number of reference schemes relative to the equator or to the Earth-Sun Plane. I won't go into these methods here as they are best described with the use of diagrams.

What we do need to know is that the several methods of house division are based on projecting semi-arcs based on the MC and/or the ASC degrees at the time of birth. The direction of the MC or of the ASC or of any of the house cusps are stated relative to the means used to project them onto the zodiac being used. The zodiac in use is just a measuring convention, a means of establishing relativity between various points.

Now, the whole set of twelve houses (and there has been other numbers used at times) is a contained set of meanings, each house having both a sequential meaning and a relative meaning within the whole circle (or set) of twelve houses. Because each culture over the course of history has seen itself as consisting of waking, working, pausing, working, eating, and resting during the day, with a night cycle consisting of sleep for some and nightly guard watches for others. All in all, each "day" cycle (of 24 hours) has a series of commonly held meanings -- and these have, over time, been coalesced into a set of experiencial meanings for each house.

SUMMARY STATEMENT

Signs are celestial measuring areas for plotting the movement of astrological bodies and astronomical points. Planets within a given sign at a given time are said, by some, to take on certain influences pertaining to that sign. What has to be kept in mind is that there are differences between what Tropicalists say about sign influence and what Siderealists say.

Houses are rotational-based zones of human/cultural experience. The only common point between them is that house boundaries are extended outward, conceptually and mathematically, so as to interect the zodiac measuring circle so that both they and signs can be plotted on a two-dimensional chart form. Planets located within a house are said to express their energies and/or influence thru an area of human experience that relates to that house.

I do hope this helps. Houses are not signs. Signs are not houses. Rulerships are not signs and are not houses. Signs don't rule houses, nor do signs rule planets. It is generally said that Planets rule signs -- many agree on this, but some either disagree or don't care.

Dave