PET PEEVE!!!! ARGH.

[New2Tarot]

Hey guys,

I'm hopefully making a trip to the occult bookstore this weekend to buy one or two decks... and as I've been looking at three decks over and over to narrow it down, after looking at tonnes of decks.. I've discovered a major pet peeve of mine. Before it was somewhat annoying, now it's just a huge annoyance.

NON-REVERSIBLE CARD BACKS. What the hell is wrong with the people at the publishing houses?! Dammit. Some of the decks I've liked SO much have turned out to have non-reversible backs which just really angers me.

I.E. Crowley Thoth.. Since I bought it I've used it maybe 4 times and have given up on it for now, because as difficult as it is to work with, having non-reversible card backs just adds to my frustration.

I read with reversals, and I feel they're important to any reading.. I think any system that doesn't use reversals is just dumb. Matter of personal opinion I guess.

But I think EVERY deck should be made with a reversible card back so that people who use reversals can use them and people who don't, can not use them. ARGH.. once again. lol

EXAMPLES..

Right now, there are three decks I'm stuck on.. Morgan Greer, World Spirit, Celtic Wisdom. Morgan Greer.. I can't really tell if those stars look different reversed, but I think they do. So that makes all three with non-reversible backs.

Whoever made the card back for the World Spirit deck ... I'll leave it there. Stupid, stupid card back. The deck is so awesome, but to me that back just takes so much away from it.

The Celtic Wisdom back is nice, but again.. non reversible.
What is the point of reading a spread with all upright cards.. I mean, where's the negative aspects?? The whole ill-dignified thing makes no sense to me. I definitely prefer the reversal system.

BKJSEOKJFRPIOEWJFK:LDfvb.f.

What are your feelings about this?

Later,
New2Tarot

[Luned]

I don't actually read with reversals, but I agree with you, I don't think you should be able to tell what's going on before you reveal the cards.

Luned

[Original Destiny]

Tell you the truth I have never thought of it till you mentioned it. Personally I dont do reversals. The front is all I have been interested in. I will look at the backs now.

[Logiatrix]

:D
my "pet" has the opposite "peeve" from yours, new!
i like non-reversible backs!
i don't do reversals, i do elementals (or, at least, i TRY).
i also don't "riffle" my cards, so, when i mix them on the table (by "swishing"), i like to gather them up, face down and none reversed. i need to know which way is up, when i do it this way (that could mean many things! :D ).
in your other post, about your new deck(s) decision, you also mentioned that you are interested in the universal waite. that one definitely has a reversible back. the original RW does not, but it is subtle. i like this kind the best, where you really have to know what to look for in the design to see that the card is reversed. that kind of card-back is a good compromise for the both of us, hmmm? ;)

[New2Tarot]

metaz (01 Mar, 2002 12:41):
:D
my "pet" has the opposite "peeve" from yours, new!
i like non-reversible backs!
i don't do reversals, i do elementals (or, at least, i TRY).
i also don't "riffle" my cards, so, when i mix them on the table (by "swishing"), i like to gather them up, face down and none reversed. i need to know which way is up, when i do it this way (that could mean many things! :D ).
in your other post, about your new deck(s) decision, you also mentioned that you are interested in the universal waite. that one definitely has a reversible back. the original RW does not, but it is subtle. i like this kind the best, where you really have to know what to look for in the design to see that the card is reversed. that kind of card-back is a good compromise for the both of us, hmmm? ;)


That's totally cool, I think it's totally up to the person using the deck to decide whether to use reversals or not, and I agree that kind of card back is a great compromise!!

The obvious backs, like the World Spirit one, or the Thoth one bother me. And, I didn't think that those who don't use reversals need a card back that is non-reversible for when they shuffle. Hmm.

It's just that every deck I really like has a non-reversible back, kind of disappointing.

Later,
New2Tarot :)

[Kiama]

That's another thing I like about my Robin Wood deck (Everyone should go out and get this deck! ;p ) It has reversible card backs, so if someone wants me to use reversed cards in a reading, I can. I usually don't, but that's not the point. Robin Wood is a great deck! Let me think.... Celtic Dragon also has reversible backs, and Rider Waite, Universal Waite.... I can't think of any more. But the World Spirit is kinda reversible, its just that the Sun and Moon are the other way round... Ah well. But otherwise, this deck is wonderful!

Kiama

[Jewel]

Depending on how the fancy strikes me I use or don't use reversals. Basically I feel very comfortable with the messages I get from the cards in upright position as their meaining is influenced by the other cards in the spread, and the decks I read with tend to really draw my attention to what they want me to look at. Anyways ... all that to say that the backs of the cards whether reversible or not make no real difference to me. I just love Tarot decks period. I am too focused on what I am doing at the time for the card backs to influence anything. Again, that is me personally.

By the way I agree with Kiama, Robin Wood excellent deck with reversible backs.

Love & Light,

[raeanne]

I think I’m missing something. You folks read the BACKS of cards? What does an upright back mean or a reversed back? I’ve never heard of any anyone reading the backs of cards. I don’t get it. I use reversals, but I only read the front side of a card so it doesn’t matter to me if the back is symmetrical or not. If I do a layout face down and turn over one card at a time, I might know that an upcoming card is reversed but since I don’t know what card it is until I turn it over, it isn’t an issue for me.

[kayne]

Reanne: I don't think people read the back of the cards, they just like that element of surprise in a reading... not knowing which ones are going to be reversed and revealing it to be reversed adds a bit more suspence and excitement perhaps...

I don't read with reversals so it doesn't bother me but I see their point. The Cosmic Tribe does not have a reversable back either (but probably has one of the best backs ever!!!)

[magdalene]

[quote]raeanne (02 Mar, 2002 08:25):
I think I’m missing something. You folks read the BACKS of cards? What does an upright back mean or a reversed back? I’ve never heard of any anyone reading the backs of cards. I don’t get it.

I'm with you raeanne. Who reads the backs of cards? You can't tell when a card is upright or not?

magdalene

[WalesWoman]

I think I’m missing something. You folks read the BACKS of cards? What does an upright back mean or a reversed back? I’ve never heard of any anyone reading the backs of cards. I don’t get it. I use reversals, but I only read the front side of a card so it doesn’t matter to me if the back is symmetrical or not. If I do a layout face down and turn over one card at a time, I might know that an upcoming card is reversed but since I don’t know what card it is until I turn it over, it isn’t an issue for me.
It does make a difference knowing a card is reversed before you see what is on the other side. I'm sure it's a mental thing, but I'd rather not know before I turn the card over.
If the top card is reversed, I tend to shuffle again simply because it's a psychological thing, especially if I'm reading for someone I don't know. Who wants to start out with a reversal? I guess that is just as bad as not liking the cards that you do see and starting over.

The only benefit I can see is it makes it easier to put your decks back in an all upright state again.

[Dejavooo]

I i like the cards with reversable backs...which are not the reproduction of an actual card image!!! For example, when i got my Fey tarot deck i fell in love with the art...but the back which featured the lovers card....killed me...and so do all other decks like like that.
Crowley Thoth...i do not think that it was ment to be a reversable deck...eather he says that or just got it from somplace, not sure, and the back which features the rosy cross is really something!
All in all i think it all depends on your taste...it would be nice to be able to have the same deck but with different backs ^^

What is the point of reading a spread with all upright cards.. I mean, where's the negative aspects?? The whole ill-dignified thing makes no sense to me. I definitely prefer the reversal system.

In thoth deck there are enough "negative" cards on its own...worry, failure, disappointment and so on, "luxury" always scared me too...i mean you can just see that it never lasts....buts thats way of the topic...sorry

[Lillie]

No, the Thoth was never meant to use reversals.
It was designed not too.

With mine, they are all the right way up, and that never changes. The way I shuffle keeps them that way.
And it is easy to tell if one has got in the wrong way up so I can put it straight.

And I like it like that.
Way back when I had enough trouble remembering 78 meanings, with out having to learn another 78 reversed meanings to go with them.

And I don't think they are necessary.
The 78 cards of the tarot comprise enough ideas and concepts to cover any eventuality without turning them upside down.

But each to his own.
I'm afraid you will have to limit yourself to decks with reversible backs.

Though I tell you something. I did have the old path.
It's back was totally reversible...
Except for the copyright in the corner, which told you exactly which cards were reversed!!!
Life, eh!
What a bitch!

[ilweran]

I was looking through some of my decks today and I think it was the Sharman Caselli Tarot put the copyright notice at the top and bottom so they really are completely symmetrical.

[Arania]

I so agreed about the card backs. I currently don't do reversals, but at times, I only do reversals. When I use them, and need a deck with non reversable back, I just close my eyes with the final shuffling and then lay the cards out. I usually reveal them all at once, at least for personal use, so it makes little difference.

[Mesara]

But I think EVERY deck should be made with a reversible card back so that people who use reversals can use them and people who don't, can not use them. ARGH.. once again. lol

I know what you mean. I feel so silly closing or averting my eyes when shuffling to avoid seeing which way the top card lies.

One of the reason's I love my Halloween deck so much- the backs are not only beautiful, but reversible as well :)

[Milfoil]

Personally I find reversals to be a matter of individuality, choice and situation just like decks. Some decks I keep for personal inspiration and guidance, others for general readings. Some I never reverse because a) its not necessary and b) those decks were not designed to be read that way.

Its a personal and calculated choice therefore, the choice of the deck with a reversable back fits in with that.

Either that or you draw the cards from under a cloth.

[RaeBelle]

I don't use reversals, so I really don't understand this, but...Why is it important that you don't know that the card is reversed? It's not like you know which card is reversed, but that it is. That could have been a dumb question, but I can't help but wonder.

[Sedi]

It seems to me that there are two simple solutions to this problem - either use a black magic marker to cover over all the backs of the cards OR for those of you who don't like any connotations of black magic, use fablon or other opaque sticky backed plastic. I know it will make the cards thicker, but they will at least be waterproof on one side.


. . . and yes, I am joking.

Put those knives down. . .

:)

[Indigo Rose]

...
I read with reversals, and I feel they're important to any reading.. I think any system that doesn't use reversals is just dumb. Matter of personal opinion I guess.

What are your feelings about this?

Later,
New2Tarot

Decks with Reversable backs:
~Cosmic Tarot
~Mythic Tarot
~Russian Tarot of St. Petersburg
~Sacred Circle Tarot

I used to read with reversals, and shuffled the decks in a fashion to allow for them. I agree reversals can offer a view that is different from the upright, and so I still do read them and find them important. However, now they are a rarity as I don't shuffle specifically to allow for them. Oddly enough, I still get them...and when I do I feel very strongly their appearance is making an important statement in the reading.

:heart:

[Mesara]

I believe you are mistaken about The Russian Tarot of St Petersburg. The backs of my favorite deck are not, unfortunately, reversible. :)

[Barbaras Ahajusts]

I use reversals. I don't with all my different cartomancy decks. Some reading styles use them, some don't. Oh well.

But you don't like Thoths ill digs? EEEKKK! :eek: I think that ith a Thoth Thin, I mean a itz a Soth Sin. Damn it, I mean its a Thoth Sin! :laugh:Hee heee heeee!
(I didn't either in the beginning! :D) I perfer the Thoth now. I blame it on Boliver and this list too! ;)

Many, many moons ago, I learned cards up (uprights). Not until I needed more info, did I start to do both.

To each their own! :D

Barb

[Indigo Rose]

I believe you are mistaken about The Russian Tarot of St Petersburg. The backs of my favorite deck are not, unfortunately, reversible. :)

The St. Petersburg deck I have has the following back:

Card Back (http://www.detukendtes.dk/archive/Kort/Russian%20Tarot%20of%20St.%20Petersburg%20back.jpg)

There is a sheild in the center with a club and sword crossing behind it. In addition, on top of the sheild is a helmet...but on the bottom is a cup. When the card is reversed the helmet is on the bottom and the cup is on top. You also see the handles of both the club and sword, when it is reversed.

I know it is not a really distinct reversal, but it is can be seen.

:heart:

[connegrl]

The following decks have backs that allow for reversals: Sheridan-Douglas, Medieval Scapini, International Icon, Old English, Polish Drogi (has a longer name, but Drogi Tarot will pull it up), Grimaud Tdm and Hadar TdM. There are certainly more. Forget the vast majority of the LS decks. Their backs don't allow for reversals, but are also in poor taste. That's it for my meager collection.

I kind of have a thing for nicely designed backs. Love the backs on the Sheridan-Douglas and the Hadar TdM. The Design on the Old English is very pleasant also.

I don't use reversals. I go on the surrounding cards and the position. Sometimes, its just my gut.

Jen

[greycats]

I started out using reversals, quit for a long time, started again and am currently using them with decks that are appropriate for their use. Nevertheless, I am not bothered by the card backs (though I do appreciate nice ones). Reason: I'm no longer dismayed by the sight of a reversed back because I've worked out my issues with reversals.

That said, there are decks like the Thoth (already mentioned) that were not designed for reversals. Some of these indicate as much by their non-reversible backs, but it's not a reliable indicator. Sometimes non-reversible backs are used for aesthetic reasons, or because of laziness, or who knows? I haven't found a deck that was impossible to read with reversals, but with decks that are designed for meditation, for example, reversals seem awkward or even beside the point. :)

[euripides]

Some cards have backs that look the same if the card is the right-way-up or not, like normal playing cards. That way, if you read with some of your cards reversed (so wen you look at the fronts, some of them are upside-down), you can't tell which are the reversed cards by looking at the backs.

With non-reversible backs, they have an image printed on the back that means you can tell that the card is upside down, so as you are shuffling and dealing, you can tell that it is a reversed card.

The Rohrig is Thoth based and I've read it with reversals, just basically trying to ignore the differences in the backs (subtle enough not to be too in-your-faces) but I actually find it really hard to read with reversals, so I don't now. With a full deck of well designed cards, all the bases are pretty much covered and you don't need them. You also use elemental dignities (ie the elements of the adjacent card affecting it) and I also tend to read the more negative aspect if it is a negative position (ie a blockage or problem).

That said, I totally understand the thing about reversible backs... since most people do read with reversals... or maybe, the designer really doesn't want you to use reversals and they do it deliberately? Which I think they have the right to do so long as you are aware of it at purchase. Like an abstract painting being meant to hang a certain way up.

Euri

[Mesara]

There is a sheild in the center with a club and sword crossing behind it. In addition, on top of the sheild is a helmet...but on the bottom is a cup. When the card is reversed the helmet is on the bottom and the cup is on top. You also see the handles of both the club and sword, when it is reversed.

I know it is not a really distinct reversal, but it is can be seen.


Maybe, but I guess my eyes have just been trained to hope for the helmet on top and the cup on the bottom :)

But I agree that the other elements lend themselves to reversibility.

Thats why I can't look at the cards while I'm shuffling this one- I'm afraid seeing the cup on top will deter me from stopping when I should :)

[Indigo Rose]

Maybe, but I guess my eyes have just been trained to hope for the helmet on top and the cup on the bottom :)


I can relate to that. It is also a very subtle difference, so easy not to see unless you are trying.

As I said before, I do read with reversals. However, I am not sure if I like having a reversible backing. To some degree, I like the element of not knowing until the card is overturned.

:heart:

[WalesWoman]

I don't use reversals, so I really don't understand this, but...Why is it important that you don't know that the card is reversed? It's not like you know which card is reversed, but that it is. That could have been a dumb question, but I can't help but wonder.
Not dumb at all, I think it's that instant.. oh no... bad news or something, so your objectivity could be slanted before you even turn the card over to find out what it is.

It doesn't matter that deep down we know reversals aren't neccessarily bad, it simply makes me start looking for negatives in the reading before I even begin it.
Loss of objectivity is not the best way to begin a reading.

[Fudugazi]

It doesn't matter that deep down we know reversals aren't neccessarily bad, it simply makes me start looking for negatives in the reading before I even begin it. Loss of objectivity is not the best way to begin a reading.ummm, but then it can be 8 of Swords Rx, or 3 of Swords Rx, or Devil Rx, LOL.

I've solved that problem anyway. I don't read reversals with decks that are meant to be read upright only. The Thoth was designed to be read with decanates and elemental dignities, not reversals. If you can't be bothered to learn that system, and you don't like to read straight with uprights only, then tough. Use another deck.

And in any case, I never read reversals for myself, because they confuse me (when I read for myself). It's hard enough to read for oneself without adding that very unstable dimension!

[AngelC]

I just don't look at the backs while shuffling, simple.
I hold the deck in my left hand with the sides up and when I feel I've shuffled enough I pick cards. I don't see whether they're reversed or not until I actually put them on the table.

Though, I've almost stopped reading with reversals altogether. I do with the Revelations obviously and the RWS but nothing else. I did with more decks initially but it just doesn't feel necessary anymore.


AngelC

[RaeBelle]

Not dumb at all, I think it's that instant.. oh no... bad news or something, so your objectivity could be slanted before you even turn the card over to find out what it is.

It doesn't matter that deep down we know reversals aren't neccessarily bad, it simply makes me start looking for negatives in the reading before I even begin it.
Loss of objectivity is not the best way to begin a reading.

WalesWoman, thank you for that explanation. It really helped me understand better...It's the anticipation that can affect you. It's rather interesting. I'll have to think on that some more. Thanks!

[WOGIT]

What I realy dislike is when they print a word on the card stateing one of its meanings.

[Esther]

I almost always read from my Art of Tarot deck. I also almost always use reversals. To be honest, it drives me nuts that with this deck, I can tell from looking at the backs if a card is reversed, or not. I'm seriously either going to have to close my eyes while I shuffle, or just not use reversals. I'll be shuffling, and I'll start thinking things like, 'Wow, a lot of reversed cards. Not good. I'll just turn these cards upright to balance it out some. Oh no! I shouldn't have done that, I shoudln't be focusing on this. I just have to let the cards be like they want to. I'll reverse some. Ugh! I don't want reversed cards! Oh no, now the first card in the reading is going to be reversed!'

Frustrating for obvious reasons.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned the Medieval Scapini deck, and it reminded me of my own experiences with that deck. I don't like using reversals with that deck at all because I have a lot of trouble telling if the aces are upright or reversed.

[MikeTheAltarboy]

I use reversals when I read with the thoth, not for any altered meaning, but because they face the opposite way. But the backs don't bother me. heh. As someone else said, I don't read the backs!

Even if I'm say doing the Celtic Cross or some layout spread, I never look at the backs. I shuffle the cards, then start dealing them out face up.

And I differ from wogit in that I also like the card titles on all of them, just because it doesn't tax my memory as much. :-) heh. I don't see a word as being any more restricting that the picture is! If we truly wanted to not be too "influenced", we'd just write "3 of Swords" in big san-serif type on the card and leave it at that. hehe.

[Marina]

Well, since i don't read with reversals i don't mind the back of the card. And since i don't read the back of the cards, i couldn't care less.

I don't think it's good to give up of some good decks like Crowley, because of such a minor thing. I don't want to sound rude, but frankly, i think that pet peeve of yours will narrow your tarot journey. You'll see most of LoScarabeo decks have reversible backs. But some AGMüller decks don't, and they have great decks. You'll give up the chance of meeting many interesting decks like
the Ancestral Path Tarot, Roots of Asia Tarot, Cosmic Tarot etc.

But that, of course, is up to you. If it bothers you so much, stick to the LS decks. Research before buying, to make sure you get only decks with reversible backs. You cannot use a deck that bothers you while reading.


~YUKO

[Fulgour]

New2Tarot (who started this thread) hasn't been around
since May of 2002, so it's very hard to say if they're still
P e e v e d...

But a carful measuring of the Thoth images will reveal
what anyone who has trimmed one soon discoverd...

The pictures on the cards are many different sizes.

I think that is the reason "James Wasserman" decided to
add the large borders, and further, because his skills are
in graphic design and typesetting ~ he added the blurbs.

Check the LWB and you'll see it's by James W. himself! :)