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isthmus nekoi
29-08-2002, 03:57
I've another inquiry - again, all help is appreciated :) ...

I know that there's a lot written about Saturn returns, but what would the significance of other Saturn-Saturn aspects be?

I ask b/c I have a Saturn-Saturn square coming up and it doesn't look very pretty. I wouldn't think much of this except that I've been in the midst of some serious psychic overhauling for a long time (since '99) and I'm expecting the end result to be *major*. I feel like I'm waiting for the end of the world (or more accurately, working and working and working towards it!!)....

lunalafey
29-08-2002, 07:14
the astro experts here at AT have changed my opinion of squares. I was one to think that all squares are difficult. But this is not the case. Some are the little nudge that is needed to accomplish. The houses these aspects are in have alot to say about how you can use this transit to your advantage. I'm just learning about houses, so someone else will have to give more detail.
you say "working towards it" which is what Saturn does....work towards....

AquarianGoddess
29-08-2002, 09:10
Hi Isthmus,

Oh that Saturn again!! He just bugs mostly everybody!

Before I give you my opinion, please tell me the sign and degree of your Saturn. From one of your previous posts, you stated that you have Saturn in Libra, thus, you should be (or did) experiencing the Saturn trine Saturn. Saturn doesn't enter Cancer (the sign that squares Libra) until June, 2003.

Regards,
AG

PS....also, if you don't mind, tell me what house Saturn rules in your chart (meaning the house where Capricorn is on the cusp.)

isthmus nekoi
29-08-2002, 14:20
Wow, thanks for the quick replies!

lunalafey,

I've only dabbled in astrology, but I agree that the aspects can't be pigeon holed into 'good' aspect or 'bad' aspect :) So many symbols in our time have been treated this way, it's hard not to get swayed into either the positives or negatives of a symbol!

AG,

*lol* Saturn's such a party pooper sometimes :P I was researching about Saturn transits and they seemed to be significant. (Plus, if a Saturn-Saturn opposition can cause so much trouble, what about the others!)

Thanks so much for offering to look into my Saturn... I really value your insight and knowledge. Having said that, please don't trouble yourself if this sort of thing is time consuming. (And if you're wanting any info regarding dreams or old/new school psychology in the future, just PM me anytime...)

You remembered correctly: my Saturn is 9 Libra 32'19", and Libra's w/the 8th house (plus Saturn's conj Jupiter 9 Libra 41'7")
My Cap rules the 12th. I have a Sun conj Mercury there if that affects anything. Oh ho ho these psychologically troublesome houses are *packed* in my chart ^_^

And yes, I've been looking waaaay ahead. The times of most psychic activity in my life happen to coincide w/the equinoxes/solstices (Jun 22) so they're life altering periods (not sure why!). As a Capricorn, I figure Saturn must be important too... so I decided to look at these 2 factors together.

Again, thanks guys for your help...

lunalafey
30-08-2002, 01:44
GEEZ!!!!
the recient astrology posts regarding Saturn are being over run by US Capi's!!!(which we capi's are ruled by Saturn)
WHAT'S UP WITH THAT??

isthmus nekoi
30-08-2002, 07:58
*lol* I noticed that too! I guess us hard working Caps like to do our research ^_~

Minderwiz
30-08-2002, 08:20
Erin Sullivan said that the theme of Saturn transits was a wake up call - a time to re-examine your life and the structures that you have created around it

In order to attempt an interpretation I would ask you to also tell us your age - Saturn squares occur roughly every seven years (give or take three or four months). I am guessing that your square is either around age 22 (towards the end of your first Saturn cycle) or age 36 (early in your second Saturn cycle). There is a difference in interpretation depending on which of these two (or any earlier or later square) is happening.

If you can indicate which square is the one that is happening I'll have a go at an interpretation.

Minderwiz

isthmus nekoi
31-08-2002, 01:21
Minderwiz,

That's very kind of you to offer a personal interpretation. Of course my offer to AG (fielding any questions about dreams and psychology) stands w/you ^_^

This will be my 2nd square (I'm 21). If it took this much work just to get to the first square of a cycle, I think I'd keel over comatose by the end :P

lunalafey
31-08-2002, 01:42
isthmus nekoi, you think squares are tough, just wait for the saturn return!!!be prepared for alot of changes and challenges. Mine was a doosie.....
and it will go on for almost 3 years....

isthmus nekoi
31-08-2002, 01:54
lunalafey, :D I can't imagine where I'll be at that point! Granted, since my first square should've been about 7yrs, I don't really recall it at all. The opposition is a different story though :P

AquarianGoddess
31-08-2002, 04:49
Isthmus,

The Saturn squares/oppositions aren't as dreadful as you may think....look at ALL of us on this planet who are over 30! We've all survived and you will too!

Years ago when I was teaching astrology a young girl of 25 asked me (the very first night of class) if she was going to have a nervous breakdown on her Saturn return...I said what gives you that idea...she said an astrologer told her that's what would happen! I said that's absolutely crazy! I'm happy to report that she's now 32 and has not suffered anything of the kind and her life is progressing nicely.

At the time your upcoming Saturn square, Jupiter will be in Virgo and trining your Capricorn planets and giving you encouragement to grow (not knowing the rest of your chart, I'm unable to incorporate anything else.) The Saturn time will be one of "examining" your accomplishments, progress, goals and the like. Where do you wish to be at that time? Start working on those things now.

Since Saturn is natally in your 8th (conjunct Jupiter) and rules your 12th (and Jupiter rules your 11th) and Saturn will be transiting your 6th, all of those houses will figure prominitely during that time. The 8th & 12 are "deep" houses that encourage one to explore the mysteries of life and death (not in a morbid way.) The 6th is work, coworkers, health and pets and the 11th is friends (who can certainly assist you in your quest).

You may seek quiet time, but it will also be essential to your growth and development to involve and include friends and/or groups. You may during that time choose to begin a group of some kind, pertinent to your likes. 11th house also rules the Internet, hence, a good place to either start the group, or expand it.

If you currently have issues with diet, excerise, etc., I would suggest working on them NOW, before Saturn enters your 6th. That will also be a time that you will need more rest than usual.

Saturn rules fear, but it's not a planet to fear (nor are any of the others'). ALL of life is a learning experience and we each evolve at our own pace and time.

You'll do just fine!

With love,
AG

isthmus nekoi
31-08-2002, 05:50
Am I ever glad I checked this board before leaving for my labour day weekend :D

Thanks so much AG for the advice, esp about the 11th house & groups b/c I tend to like to have ppl out of my hair so to speak whenever I'm working w/uncon material. It's one of my blindspots so I'm glad you pointed that out.

I guess I gave you the impression that I'm dreading this square - I'm actually looking forward to it (although maybe not in the same way you look forward to like, a party)! Everything that I'm working w/is towards major changes downstairs, serious Tower action going on. It's like a secret project I've been working on for 3 years and I'm curious as to what I'll end up w/or where I'll be... Certainly pointing out the 6th and 11th house is helpful b/c I really wasn't thinking about the issues those houses deal w/ (it's 8 & 12 where I feel right at home :P).

Everyone lives in a subjective cognitive world order or belief system... a fantasy if you will, for better or for worse. And no matter how flexible and broad your fantasy is, it will never truly hold the reality of objective existence... To reiterate what Minderwiz wrote, I think Saturn brings a reality check: how well does your fantasy work w/the way things really are? When something brushes up against that fantasy (in psychology they call it 'cognitive dissonance') it can be potentially traumatic, therefore something to fear, but at the same time, something utterly necessary and perhaps something to look fwd to...

lunalafey
31-08-2002, 07:12
Originally posted by isthmus nekoi
To reiterate what Minderwiz wrote, I think Saturn brings a reality check: how well does your fantasy work w/the way things really are? When something brushes up against that fantasy, it can be potentially traumatic, therefore something to fear, but at the same time, something utterly necessary and perhaps something to look fwd to...
EXACTLY how I could describe my Saturn return. I fulfilled fantisy (some) but not without having to deal with some trauma. The relationship department went from one to another and from not so good to awful, to ecstacy. I see that experience(without the knowlege of astrology)as a slap in the face, where the first relationship left me lost,(the beginning of the return) the ill ways of the second woke me up, faced my fears, had to become strong, and learn to 'fight'. At the end of my return I found the path that I wanted, but was still picking up pieces and cleaning up the mess. Here I am today 3 years later and I am enjoying life more than I ever have.

Minderwiz
31-08-2002, 07:41
Some good comments above.

The only additions I'd make are that this Saturn Square marks your entry into the adult world (though arguably this is not complete till the first Saturn return) - It's a period of completing the separation of self from parents. On the one hand you are still looking for inner growth on the other society is now beginning to make demands of you, as a person, you are no longer viewed as an appendage to your parents. This can actually produce quite a strain if you don't recognise it as one of the rites of passage into adulthood. Around 21 you go through your first Uranus square to natal Uranus (if you're very lucky you will eventually have a Uranus return around the age of 84). The Uranus square creates something of an identity crisis and this is then followed very quickly by the Saturn square.

Over this two year period you are really trying to sort out what will be your purpose in life and to create the basis of what you will become (Saturn is the planet of construction and building).

Thus your challenge is to separate yourself as an individual from the family unit and to build the adult you. Unfortunately both family and society may not give you the space and time to do this easily, so you may well find conflicting needs and demands. Being truly independant for the first time does bring with it the confidence issue - will I be able to cope - but as AG points out, we all go through this and learn quickly how to behave as an adult. The basic message is don't despair, it's not only not the end of the world but in many ways its the beginning of the world!

Take note of what AG says above - it's rubbish to over dramatise this and turn it into a melodrama. It's simply an important phase of life - the point at which you say 'hello world here I am - a new and independant adult able to take on responsibility and play my part without depending on others all the time. Saturn is a teacher - the lessons are sometimes hard (if we resist) sometimes reasonably easy - sometimes learning can both be demanding but also rewarding and enjoyable.

Without looking at your whole chart I can't go further and advise on which planetary influences to build on - AG gives some good pointers from what you have already disclosed and I don't think I could add anything more to her wise words.

Minderwiz

isthmus nekoi
03-09-2002, 01:23
This thread just keeps getting more interesting!

... I gather from the responses here that my 1st post has an alarmist tone which wasn't my intention at all ^_^ I tend to speak/write seriously about issues like death w/ an ease and comfort that is perhaps unexpected. But I do appreciate everyone's attempts to assauge the perceived anxiety; you guys are such a caring bunch over here :) w/o astrology, tarot etc I'd still have seen this coming so I was never like, losing any sleep over this; I've been brought to my knees enough times to understand the nature of what I'm dealing w/... So I totally agree, Minderwiz that getting riled up over inevitable change is pointless.

Having said that, I do think our society has a tendancy to downplay situations that make one vulnerable, hurt etc. Our society often undervalues these stages in the process and prefers to focus on 'moving on' or 'making lemons from lemonade'. There is this idea that the quicker a person 'deals', the stronger they are. While there is some truth in this line of thinking, I think that attempting to minimize these vulnerable stages is not particularly helpful. Which is not to say a difficult Saturn transit should focus solely on pain! Esp if your fantasy has been giving you much grief, a change is bound to feel good, no matter how trying it is!

Anyways, I must thank you for your additional input Minderwiz, it really got me thinking. If it's not too presumptuous to add to your age-specific interpretation, I think that the issue of hubris is also very pertinent to a 3rd square or even return. I know many ppl my age, totally independant from their parents (at least physically!), who rationally know they are mortal, but on an irrational level, really believe they are invincible. It's an identification of the ego w/the Self, an identification w/something eternal and infinite.

In cross cultural psychology, we touched on puberty initiation rites and these were described as barbaric and unnecessarily violent (in more PC terms of course). I had to disagree. These rituals, no matter how mild, all have a similar theme, and that is to crush the ego's hubris - it's a literalization of the act of wrenching a child's consciousness from the center of its universe, and thrusting it into objective reality. In the rites, this is often achieved through physical suffering.

In our 'civilized' society, we have no similar sanctioned rituals. In fact, instead of stressing human limitation, our rituals stress freedom; freedom to drive, drink, vote etc. We not only encourage hubris, we glorify it. Hubris is not necessarily a bad thing - w/o it, we would never dream of attempting the impossible... but I can imagine this glorification of hubris is partly the reason why a reality check can be so scary... I'm not saying we start setting fire ants on our youth or anything like that, heavens no :P Only that perhaps humility in our society would not seem so harsh if we held a greater space for our own limitations, mortality etc.

Not sure how relevant this is to Saturn transits, but this is how I see some early transits in the cultural context of industrialized Western society...

isthmus nekoi
07-09-2002, 03:48
(if anyone made it through my last long winded post ;))

Saturn-saturn transits in adulthood strike me as dealing w/the issues that you have worked/are working for (or not!): you reap what you sow. This would be contrasted w/issues that are more out of one's control. If this is an accurate assessment, that may be another reason why a reality check seems harsh b/c there is no greater misery than the misery you inflict upon yourself, consciously or unconsciously. One of my fave sayings is: you made your bed, now you'll lie in it - in other words, you cannot avoid the consequences of your actions be they ones that you've wanted or not.

isthmus nekoi
11-12-2003, 04:47
well, it's been quite some time since the square and I thought it would be helpful if I described the transit which activated Cancer/Libra, 6th/8th houses.

Natally, Saturn is very strong; he rules my ASC and sun, is exalt in Libra, is the first planet to be hit by transits in my tight line of natal planets and is conj one of my final depositors.

The Sabian symbol for my natal Saturn degree is: "A CANOE APPROACHING SAFETY THROUGH DANGEROUS WATERS."

Basically, I had a lot of very very complex dreams, the powerful symbolism of which sent me scrambling to the library only to return empty handed lol. The manifestation of this square really did feel like I was reaping something that I had worked very very hard for. Too bad I didn't understand what it was! But since the transit hit during summer vacation, I had practically no external responsibilities and perhaps this coupled w/the 8th house placement is why it was so heavily internalized, . I have to be honest though. Saturn didn't bring much of a reality check in terms of anything. Saturn brought more of an unreality check what w/the dreams! In terms of the 6th house, nothing really 6th house-y came up w/this transit...