sweet_intuition
Let the debate begin!
Waite v/s Crowley
Gayla
Crowley appears to have been a bit darker in spirit that Waite.
Also, in my brief study of the two..Crowley appears to be the more domineering, charasmatic type...he demanded attention and he got it. He was a the higher profile figure of the two during their time.
I for one, relate to concepts of AEW much easier...but find the writing of Crowley to be fascinating.
For example,
"The joy of life consists in the exercise of one's energies, continual growth, constant change, the enjoyment of every new experience. To stop means simply to die. The eternal mistake of mankind is to set up an attainable ideal." - The Confessions of Aleister Crowley, ch. 65
Crowley was obviously brilliant, but perhaps a bit 'mad'.
Also, in my brief study of the two..Crowley appears to be the more domineering, charasmatic type...he demanded attention and he got it. He was a the higher profile figure of the two during their time.
I for one, relate to concepts of AEW much easier...but find the writing of Crowley to be fascinating.
For example,
"The joy of life consists in the exercise of one's energies, continual growth, constant change, the enjoyment of every new experience. To stop means simply to die. The eternal mistake of mankind is to set up an attainable ideal." - The Confessions of Aleister Crowley, ch. 65
Crowley was obviously brilliant, but perhaps a bit 'mad'.
LixiPixi
Gayla said:
My study on the two has been fairly brief as well. I'm very turned off by that "madness" of Crowley and I can totally feel that madness in his cards. I just don't like them at all and can't seem to connect with them no matter how I try. I had the Quest Deck for awhile, and the only thing I did like about it was the keywords at the bottom of the cards. His artistry seems so alien-like, so unrealistic.
Waite seems to have a much more down-to-earth personality to him in comparison to Crowley and I'm able to connect with that much better.
LP~
Gregorio
Both were members of the Golden Dawn and both their decks are descendants of the Golden Dawn tradition. The Crowley approach remains much closer to the description of the original Golden Dawn cards than does Waite. Crowley made significant changes in the major Arcana with Temperance becoming Art, Strength becoming Lust and Judgement becoming the Aeon. All these changes are quite in keeping with Crowley's thelemic philosophy after his reception of the Book of the Law in 1904ev. Crowley made an interesting innovation (that continues to this day) with his pip cards (which follow the Golden Dawn almost exactly) in adding one word descriptions that provide an initial "meaning" for the cards. The Crowley Thoth deck is essentially a Golden Dawn deck drawn in a neo-cubist/art deco style by Lady Frieda Harris, with a healthy dose of Thelemic tradition thrown in. It is a beautiful, dense, thoughtful masterwork by one of the greatest occult thinkers of all time. / Now turning to the Waite deck, we can again say that it is also a masterwork by a great occult philosopher. The Waite deck breaks away a bit from the esoteric tradition of the Golden Dawn pips, since it provides an actual drawing for each pip card to convey the meaning of the card. The deck follows the Marseille tradition in much of it's greater Arcana imagery and also contains a hefty dose of Christian and Masonic symbolism. Certainly Tarot lovers must acknowlege the impact this deck has had in the popularity of Tarot in the last century. It remains the most readable, understandable and (in my estimation) one of the most beautiful decks ever created. As for the two great books written on the Tarot, Crowley is responsible for THE BOOK OF THOTH and Waite is responsible for THE PICTORIAL KEY TO THE TAROT. Again, both gentlemen have created very different masterworks. Waite's book is perfect (although these days the writing style may seem a bit archaic) for the beginner and Crowley's book will provide much insight and many new ideas for the experienced tarot reader. To sum up: Both men are equal in terms of their contribution to the Tarot. Both are invaluable. Both were genuises to whom we, who read the Tarot in the 21st century, owe a profound debt.
kwaw
Personally I prefer the art of Frieda Harris. Both sets find much of their inspiration from the GD: take for example the GD description of Temperance from the Ritual of the Portal:
"The more ancient form shows a female figure .... chained to her waist are a lion and an eagle, between which is a large cauldron....
"The latter form is the usual figure of Temperance... an Angel with the Solar emblem of Tiphareth on her brow, and wings of the aerial and volatising nature, pouring together the fluidic fire and the fiery water - thus combining, harmonising and temperating those opposing elements. One foot rests on dry and volcanic land, in the background of which is a volcano whence issues an eruption. The other foot is in the water by whose border springs fresh vegetation, contrasting strongly with the dry and arid nature of the distant land. On her breast is a square, the emblem of rectitude..."
Kwaw
"The more ancient form shows a female figure .... chained to her waist are a lion and an eagle, between which is a large cauldron....
"The latter form is the usual figure of Temperance... an Angel with the Solar emblem of Tiphareth on her brow, and wings of the aerial and volatising nature, pouring together the fluidic fire and the fiery water - thus combining, harmonising and temperating those opposing elements. One foot rests on dry and volcanic land, in the background of which is a volcano whence issues an eruption. The other foot is in the water by whose border springs fresh vegetation, contrasting strongly with the dry and arid nature of the distant land. On her breast is a square, the emblem of rectitude..."
Kwaw
ravenest
Since this thread subject is Waite Vs Crowley (and not Thoth vs Rider -Waite ):
Crowley was a stuffed shirt that joked about it, Waite WAS a stuffed shirt.
Waite the wanker, I reckon, check out some of his books, what a joke! But he appears to take himself seriously! Crowley often derided everyone including himself and pointed out how important this was in magick as a weapon against the ego. Waite didnt even seem to be aware of the rediculousness of his ego.
have a look at Waites book The Book of Black Magic and Spells - absolutly rediculous (unless you want to know how to make your neighbours cows sick or other useless nasty spells of 18c. rural life)
Now compare that to some of Crowleys writings on magick.
As far as history goes and the fame and work done and good books published on the subject AC absolutly ****s on Waite.
Waite wanted to be a magician, Crowley was a magician.
Waite was so self rightuos and self assured. Back (in ancient history) when I was about 16 I read my first Waite book, I started to get interested until he alluded to some secret that he was in possesion of and certaintly would not be revealing to the like of his readers. Crowley did the same but left multiple analogies and hints and symbols so one could penetrate the mystery if one was not lazy. It makes one think that Waites style was to cover the fact he knew rather little at all and was just rehashing what he was taught or read.
Crowley was deffinatly an individual, Waite was boring and turgid.
Crowley dressed excitingly and flamboyantly, Waite dressed posed in his frock coat as a Horlicks milk delivery man.
Crowley inagurated a New Aeon, bought us the Book of the Law, and predicted many things that have now come to pass, he had vision, his banner was Life, Light, Love and Liberty.
And Waite ... ? Well he did write a book on Rosicrucianism, which basically dissed it and said it didnt exists. At the same time he was lobbying the GD to be advanced to the next stages which were, unknown to him, Rosicrucian degrees
then couldnt figure out why he didnt get invited to advance after his peers read his book ... oh dear!
Crowley was a stuffed shirt that joked about it, Waite WAS a stuffed shirt.
Waite the wanker, I reckon, check out some of his books, what a joke! But he appears to take himself seriously! Crowley often derided everyone including himself and pointed out how important this was in magick as a weapon against the ego. Waite didnt even seem to be aware of the rediculousness of his ego.
have a look at Waites book The Book of Black Magic and Spells - absolutly rediculous (unless you want to know how to make your neighbours cows sick or other useless nasty spells of 18c. rural life)
Now compare that to some of Crowleys writings on magick.
As far as history goes and the fame and work done and good books published on the subject AC absolutly ****s on Waite.
Waite wanted to be a magician, Crowley was a magician.
Waite was so self rightuos and self assured. Back (in ancient history) when I was about 16 I read my first Waite book, I started to get interested until he alluded to some secret that he was in possesion of and certaintly would not be revealing to the like of his readers. Crowley did the same but left multiple analogies and hints and symbols so one could penetrate the mystery if one was not lazy. It makes one think that Waites style was to cover the fact he knew rather little at all and was just rehashing what he was taught or read.
Crowley was deffinatly an individual, Waite was boring and turgid.
Crowley dressed excitingly and flamboyantly, Waite dressed posed in his frock coat as a Horlicks milk delivery man.
Crowley inagurated a New Aeon, bought us the Book of the Law, and predicted many things that have now come to pass, he had vision, his banner was Life, Light, Love and Liberty.
And Waite ... ? Well he did write a book on Rosicrucianism, which basically dissed it and said it didnt exists. At the same time he was lobbying the GD to be advanced to the next stages which were, unknown to him, Rosicrucian degrees
then couldnt figure out why he didnt get invited to advance after his peers read his book ... oh dear!Gayla
LixiPixi said:
Yes LixiPixi..I had the same experience...he is an interesting character to say the least, but I cannot connect at all with the Thoth deck...it's dark.
But...I think it was really Crowley who propelled the tarot into the 21st century...he was hardcore....I suspect he consiously knew he was making a significant mark in history.
Waite, on the other hand.. (with the lovely Pixie along for the ride) just softened it up a bit for those of us lighter hearted folks.
I can honestly say I would probably not be so interested in the tarot if not for the RWS.
Crowley and Waite are the Ying/Yang of tarot...no doubt.
MeeWah
If this discussion about the individuals of Waite & Crowley, I think in some ways they much alike. & that may be the root of their mutual 'dislike'.
Both driven, both competitive, both complex personalities. In their individual way, geniuses & ahead of their time. & sort of like 'geek' versus 'goth'.
That Waite seems the 'lighter' of the two rather simplistic. (That the RWS exists & bears his name we actually owe to the artistry & intuition of Pamela Colman Smith.)
That Crowley apparently the stronger personality &/or possessed of a 'darker' aspect somewhat evident in his deck, (however, his not the hand that created the paintings for the deck--so the credit goes to Lady Frieda Harris for her artistry & intuition). There is a thin line between genius & madness. His particular activities apparently contributed to the mental deterioration & status in his later years.
What is clear is that they both contributed to the structures & the traditions of Tarot as we know them now. They both have my respect.
Both driven, both competitive, both complex personalities. In their individual way, geniuses & ahead of their time. & sort of like 'geek' versus 'goth'.
That Waite seems the 'lighter' of the two rather simplistic. (That the RWS exists & bears his name we actually owe to the artistry & intuition of Pamela Colman Smith.)
That Crowley apparently the stronger personality &/or possessed of a 'darker' aspect somewhat evident in his deck, (however, his not the hand that created the paintings for the deck--so the credit goes to Lady Frieda Harris for her artistry & intuition). There is a thin line between genius & madness. His particular activities apparently contributed to the mental deterioration & status in his later years.
What is clear is that they both contributed to the structures & the traditions of Tarot as we know them now. They both have my respect.
sweet_intuition
Well, personally, I'd go for Crowley.
In my humble opinion, Waite seemed to be a bit aloof from the reader in his writings. In all of his works (including the works he translated), I feel the entire aura of self importance exuding, as well as, that he never revealed everything deliberately.
Crowley on the other hand was mysterious. He intrigued the reader, made them want for more. He revealed everything, but in a crypted poetic manner, which would only be understood by those who took the time and effort. For I feel, he believed that everyone worthy enough to understand deserved to know about the various mysteries.
An example would be, in a work of sex magick, crowley spoke of a ritual involving "eating babies"... to the uninitiated, it would sound repulsive, but to those who read between the lines, would realize that it just meant swallowing the semen during oral sex.
Perhaps I'm drawn to his controversial side, perhaps I like his dramatics, but I feel he played a major role in bringing forth magick and the mysteries out of the GD closet.
In my humble opinion, Waite seemed to be a bit aloof from the reader in his writings. In all of his works (including the works he translated), I feel the entire aura of self importance exuding, as well as, that he never revealed everything deliberately.
Crowley on the other hand was mysterious. He intrigued the reader, made them want for more. He revealed everything, but in a crypted poetic manner, which would only be understood by those who took the time and effort. For I feel, he believed that everyone worthy enough to understand deserved to know about the various mysteries.
An example would be, in a work of sex magick, crowley spoke of a ritual involving "eating babies"... to the uninitiated, it would sound repulsive, but to those who read between the lines, would realize that it just meant swallowing the semen during oral sex.
Perhaps I'm drawn to his controversial side, perhaps I like his dramatics, but I feel he played a major role in bringing forth magick and the mysteries out of the GD closet.
Rosanne
Waite versus Crowley? Well I think their main difference in regards to Tarot was marked. Crowley believed Tarot was a living intelligence in the way a Herion addict and occultist would think, and he was into eroticism and sexual Magic. He was Bizarre in dress and behaviour, nor was he generally liked. He exerted alot of influence over some years on Lady Harris's painting and would discard her card painting if he did not like it. He is thought now, to have been psychotic, whether from Herion or in spite of it.
Waite on the other hand was a pretend Catholic priest who was an occultist, he seemed to believe that Tarot told the story of Mans fall from Grace and the way to return to the Godhead. He had a ponderous way of writing and although he alludes to having exerted profound influence on Pamela Colman Smith as an Artist- it appears that was over a very short period and Pamela painted the deck mostly un-influenced by him. He also made his living from writing esoteric books.
I personally prefer the result of Waite than of Crowley. They were supposed to be in a non competitive spiritual mystery school and neither seemed to follow that precept. Thank goodness for the Artists vision in both decks.
I do not think Pamela liked Crowley either- take a look at what the Kings left leg is resting on or pushing into the mud; does it not look like the head of the God Thoth the Baboon? ~Rosanne
Waite on the other hand was a pretend Catholic priest who was an occultist, he seemed to believe that Tarot told the story of Mans fall from Grace and the way to return to the Godhead. He had a ponderous way of writing and although he alludes to having exerted profound influence on Pamela Colman Smith as an Artist- it appears that was over a very short period and Pamela painted the deck mostly un-influenced by him. He also made his living from writing esoteric books.
I personally prefer the result of Waite than of Crowley. They were supposed to be in a non competitive spiritual mystery school and neither seemed to follow that precept. Thank goodness for the Artists vision in both decks.
I do not think Pamela liked Crowley either- take a look at what the Kings left leg is resting on or pushing into the mud; does it not look like the head of the God Thoth the Baboon? ~Rosanne
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