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Belatrix
09-12-2006, 11:53
Do you think that outer planets can be combust in the same way as inner planets,under the wing of powerful Sun?

Fulgour
09-12-2006, 13:11
This is NEW to me...

Combust

A planet placed within 8 degrees 30 minutes (but not within 17 minutes) of the Sun. Meaning "burnt", this is not a favourable condition, especially for the Moon and inner planets when direct in motion and applying to the corporeal conjunction.

http://www.astrologycom.com/glossc.html

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Combustion - Definition from Christian Astrology (1847, W.Lilly)

A Planet is said to be Combust of the Sun, when in the same Sign where the Sun is in, he is not distant from the Sun eight degrees and thirty minutes, either before or after the Sun; as Jupiter in the tenth degree of Aries, and Sun in the eighteenth of Aries; here Jupiter is Combust.

Also: You must observe a Planet is more afflicted when the Sun hastens to conjunction of him, then when the Sun recedes from him.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/special-horary/combust.php

dadsnook2000
09-12-2006, 13:45
I'd like to add some comments to Fulgour's excellent presentation of information on astrological combustion.

For all of the outer planets, Mars outward, combustion occurs when that planet is on the other side of the Sun from Earth. This opposite of the inner planets, Venus and Mercruy, and our Moon being positioned between us and the Sun. In all these cases the astrological body cannot be seen.

This is similar to just before a new Moon when the Moon is dark. What is really different is that the outer planets take longer to move "free" of the Sun. Eight degrees equates to a range of actual days before the proscribed seperation is reached. If we looked at the recent Mars-conjunct-Sun event in Sept.-Nov. of this year we see that Mars reached a point 8.5 degrees from the Sun on Sept. 27th (3:45 Libra and 12:15 Libra, exact in the following day). Later the two seperated from "combustion" on Nov. 20th (27:30 and 16:40 Scorpio, exact in the following day). This period lasted 23 days.

If we look at Pluto, this "combust period began on Dec. 10th and ended on Dec. 26th -- just 16 days. In any case, these dark periods might be said to negate the ability of the combusted planet to express its normal energies. It simply disappears from your chart, so to speak.

Obviously, a transit to a natal period during this combust period might be seen as having no impact. Rather the shorter applying-seperating period of the Sun over that planet would have a likely impact. Something to consider!
Dave

Belatrix
09-12-2006, 19:55
Thanks for your explainations Fulgour and Dave.
I asked the question,because I got an impression that in astrological literature term combust is more used for inner planets,when placed so close
to Sun.
I pointed to Uranus,Neptune and Pluto here.So can we discuss this just a little bit more?Lets take one of them as an example.Pluto.Lest say that we find Pluto no more then three degrees away from Sun.If we use the rule for combustion,we can say that this distance fits to that rule.But is there any difference here if we compare Pluto Sun combustion to combustion to any of inner planets?
If a planet is placed so close to Sun,then it is less productive,and eventually debilitated.Then if we find small and so distant Pluto combust Sun,then what do we get here?How would it be manifested in a chart?What would be less productive in that person`s chart?What do we expect here in general?And can we find Pluto`s aspects to other planets and personal points in charts less important and less
strong here?
Thank you.I just want to clarify things here.

dadsnook2000
09-12-2006, 23:37
In the example I gave, I had suggested that a planet (Pluto is a good to use) that is combust the Sun essentially loses its ability to be seen. Lets look at this a little deeper.

If Mercury or Venus were close to the Sun, say eight degrees away, you could not see them with the naked eye. Why? Two reasons. First, because dawn and twilight periods are considered to span some 30 to 35 minutes of time. At the Earth's rotation rate of 1 degree every 4 minutes, this period of time equates to about 8 degrees. Second, when Mercury and Venus are making a conjunction-combust position on our side of the Sun then we can't see their dark sides. We can see their mostly full disks when they are on the other side of the Sun and about 8 degrees or more from the Sun. The viewing period may be short because they fall below the western horizon within minutes, sometimes, of sunset or are lost in the morning sun light if seen on the eastern horizon.

Now, using Pluto, if Pluto is 8 degrees from the Sun I interprete it as being a conjunction signifying an intesnification of will, of focus, of effort, along with concerns relating to Pluto (death, procreation, rebirth, irreversible change) as well as bringing in the Sun's complex meanings (based on house and aspects). I can't recall any famous people, for whom I have charts, who have Pluto conjunct the Sun within a degree or so. That would be the kind of example, for Pluto-Neptune-Uranus-Saturn-Jupiter-Mars, that would be interesting to explore. WOULD THEY EXHIBIT THAT PLANET'S BEHAVIOR, LOSE IT, OR AMPLIFY IT? Perhaps list members can relate some examples for us. Dave

Belatrix
10-12-2006, 02:31
Thanks Dave.
Yes,that is exactly where I wanted to direct our conversation related to combustions.But,yes,here we are at the point,where we might find out what kind of aspect is the aspect of Sun and Pluto when they are away from each other no more then about 2 degrees.
No doubt,this aspect is an affliction.I agree with you Dave that in cases of Sun Pluto conjuction at exactly 8 degree distance,we have power.That is very clear and undisturbed power,which can be used for either good or bad purposes(depending of sign and house placement and aspects to this conjuction).
But it looks to me that according to your comment,you`re not sure what exactly we get if Sun and Pluto are close within degree or two.You only said that you found no famous people with such an aspect(that tells us something,
no doubt).If we use logic,and we understand that in such cases Pluto becomes invisible(from our,Earth direction),that might lead us to the conclusion,that Pluto`s influence is lessened.Further,using logic,we might conclude that it can be burnt too(we don`t see Pluto from here,but anything close to Sun`s rays,looking from here,must be burnt).But how can it be burnt,when so far away?I guess that there is some difference between hopeless little Mercury and Venus-and Pluto.
What I want to accent(and ask) here is:
1. Is Pluto less productive,weaker or debilitated here?And what happens to features Pluto represents,if they are debilitated?
2. If Pluto just can`t be weak,then what happens in this case?Sun represents life and positive power(very strong-Sun just gives life).Pluto is power too,but the power which takes lives.Pluto is death(rules eight house and Scorpio).There is no doubt there is inharmony between those two(Sun and Pluto).
3. When two of them are so close(and Sun represents our deepest character),being joined forever in conjuction(which is the strongest aspect),then character of people with that kind of aspect is coloured forever.Two super powers of totally opposite qualities,and different goals.That must be the battle?
4. Also later,we might talk about the fact that Dave mentioned-Pluto becomes invisible from Earth direction,when combust Sun,and it negates Pluto`s energies to be expressed,in other words it disappears from birth charts then.(This problem we may observed like an addition to the problem I marked under the number 1.)

Are there any scientific answers to this?Something that astrology already found out here?Firstly,I would like to find out,if Pluto is somehow weakened in this position.Then,if we determine that,we might talk about other features of this problem.

Gemini Rising
10-12-2006, 12:06
Hey all!

Now, I'll be the first to say I'm in no way an experienced astrologer, but several people I know have outer planets combust the sun, and my brother has Pluto within 2 degrees of the sun. Here's his natal chart:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/una_anima/Jonnatal.jpg

Like I said, I'm in no way experienced at natal astrology, but I'll do my best here...

Pluto is death, rebirth, and change, and if there's one thing about my brother, he will NOT alter his behavior or situations he is in for ANY reason no matter HOW detrimental, ESPECIALLY in relationships, and he has the Sun and Pluto combust Libra in the 7th--super-codependency, you could say.

In other words, change in any way, shape, or form, NEVER happens with him. He's going to stay the same forever, never changing, never growing, never making himself better, forever trapped in a horrible relationship and living with mental disabilities easily solved if he decided to change...which he won't.

Also, my mom has Neptune combust the Sun. I won't post her natal chart becuase I don't have an accurate birth time, but the Sun is in 6 degrees of Scorpio and Neptune is 8 degrees. Self-delusion, thinking about it right now, is a big weakness for her. She'll play games on the computer all day telling herself she'll get to work right after the next level. She'll keep telling herself she'll change jobs, she'll go back to college, and never do it, but she thinks that because she has the intent to do it EVENTUALLY it's fine. I read Neptune is also sensitivity to emotions, which I can't judge considering her Sun is a water sign anyways.

Well, that...didn't help. I just gave two conflicting results--my brother lacking Pluto's power, and my mother under under Neptune's influence.

However, regarding my mother, on the day she was born the sun moved into Pisces a little before noon, so there's a chance that may have something to do with it if that DOES happen to be her moon.

Looking through the charts I have collected, my chart is the only other with a combust planet--Mercury at 8 degrees 49 minutes Libra, Sun at 9 degrees 24 minutes Libra, and I'm a VERY intellectual person.

I hope I at least contributed SOMETHING useful!
~Nicky

dadsnook2000
10-12-2006, 12:49
~Nicky, in the light of using these wonderful examples permit me to tweak a couple of things.

You said: Pluto is death, rebirth, and change, and if there's one thing about my brother, he will NOT alter his behavior or situations he is in for ANY reason no matter HOW detrimental, ESPECIALLY in relationships . . .

Reply: Pluto is also POWER, INTENSITY. "Change" is "irrevocable, unswerving change." No going back.

You said: In other words, change in any way, shape, or form, NEVER happens with him. He's going to stay the same forever, never changing, never growing, never . . .

REPLY: Well, its his Pluto conjunct the Sun (will, self-interest, focus) so the Pluto effect will apparently be directed outward, onto others.

You said: Also, my mom has Neptune combust the Sun. . . .the Sun is in 6 degrees of Scorpio and Neptune is 8 degrees. Self-delusion, thinking about it right now, is a big weakness for her. She'll play games on the computer all day telling herself she'll get to work right after the next level. She'll keep telling herself she'll change jobs, she'll go back to college, and never do it, but she thinks that because she has the intent to do it EVENTUALLY it's fine. I read Neptune is also sensitivity to emotions, which I can't judge considering her Sun is a water sign anyways.

Well, that...didn't help. I just gave two conflicting results--my brother lacking Pluto's power, and my mother under under Neptune's influence.

REPLY: Your brother excells in applying Pluto's power onto others. Your mother applies it upon herself. This is interesting; each case of "combust" outer-planet to the Sun can individually work outward or inward. We can take this as a supposition at this point -- staying within the context of this thread.

Also, the Moon square Venus suggests challenges relating to one's devotional outlook. How one responds to affection is challenged. On the other hand, Mars conjunct Uranus suggests obstinancy, unyielding force among other things. These components seem to contribute to your brother's make-up.

Thank you very much for offering these examples, they will help further this discussion and teach us all something we can use in the future. Dave

Gemini Rising
10-12-2006, 13:14
Dadsnook--I agree with what you're saying, however, there was one thing that confused me...

You said his Plutonian energy of change would be directed outward? In what way? Such as, him bringing change to OTHERS?

Hm...thinking about it, I suppose this might be true. His ostentatiousness about his mental disabilities leads to a breakdown every few years, always causing some form of distress throughout my family, always leading to debt, frustration, etc. It's caused tons of tension between my parents. But then again (I'm a Libra, remember!), that could be true with anyone in any situation, the outward change. In the case of my brother, though, the change is ONLY to others--that is, he causes change in others' lives and NOT his.

As for my mom, since Neptune can be SELF deception (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not experienced), I don't see how it COULD be focused outward. Maybe something more like Saturn outward could be being strict and autocratic about others while being lazy themself. Who knows? Certainly an interesting thing to study! I'll definitely follow this board!

~Nicky

PS--while we're on the subject, what does my Mercury/Sun combust mean? And how do Neptune and Uranus in Cap affect them? Here's my chart:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/una_anima/natalchart.jpg

dadsnook2000
10-12-2006, 13:28
You said his Plutonian energy of change would be directed outward? In what way? Such as, him bringing change to OTHERS?

REPLY: No, POWER over others, not change. Pluto is primarily POWER.

You said: the change is ONLY to others--that is, he causes change in others' lives and NOT his.

REPLY: That is what I meant about PLUTO energy being focused outwardly in his life.

You said: As for my mom, since Neptune can be SELF deception (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not experienced), I don't see how it COULD be focused outward.

REPLY: Your mother's Neptune issues are focused inward! Not outward. She imposes deception upon herself.

You said: PS--while we're on the subject, what does my Mercury/Sun combust mean? And how do Neptune and Uranus in Cap affect them?

REPLY: Its late now. Why don't you first go to my Planet Series threads and look for Sun-Mercury Relationships. Its fascinating to see all of the AT people's inputs along with my suggestions about how these two work together can provide a lot of insights.

Dave

Belatrix
11-12-2006, 08:43
Here is one detail written by Gemini Rising,that tells us something about his brother,and eventually about combust Sun and Pluto:
«His ostentatiousness about his mental disabilities leads to a breakdown every few years, always causing some form of distress throughout my family, always leading to debt, frustration, etc. It's caused tons of tension between my parents.»
Well,this situation might refer to complete condition of his brother chart,but it might has to do something with aspects to Sun-and Pluto is very close to Sun.Gemini rising mentiones frustrations,and such kind of surely unpleasant things that happen every few years in the familly,cause by actions of his brother.
Dave,could we focus this combustion problem here?I mean,not primarly with the example I mentioned here,but in general.You`ve said-Pluto when being combust,becomes invisible,then Pluto dissapears from charts then(I guess perticulary from a house where placed),then if Pluto combusted it negates his influence...What all these thoughts can tell us?That they are some frustrations in expressing things when we have this situation.Or that there is some unpleleasnt and unnatural way of expression that is present here.Some uncomfortability,when Pluto is burnt.Some negative mutation of energy.
What am I pointing at here?To find out if when closely combust,Pluto mutates,and when so wounded,becmomes even more specific,eventually unpredictable and generaly diferent.

dadsnook2000
11-12-2006, 10:23
Hi. No, I didn't say (or mean to say) that a Sun-combust-Pluto means that Pluto disappears from the chart. That statement was a hypothesis, one possiblity that we had to consider. I had no sample charts to examine relative to a person I knew. We had to consider that 1) that the combust planet was very much intensified by the Sun and became powerfully expressive, or 2) that the combust planet disappeared and was not effectively present in terms of behavior. A third possiblity, of course, is that it could work both ways, varying from one person to the next -- not a helpful thought.

That is why I asked for examples if anyone had them. From the charts we have discussed so far it looks like the presented concept of "combust" planets does not apply to the outer planets, that they are very much made effective.

Does that clear it all up for you? Dave

Voron
15-12-2006, 09:03
Now, using Pluto, if Pluto is 8 degrees from the Sun I interprete it as being a conjunction signifying an intesnification of will, of focus, of effort, along with concerns relating to Pluto (death, procreation, rebirth, irreversible change) as well as bringing in the Sun's complex meanings (based on house and aspects). I can't recall any famous people, for whom I have charts, who have Pluto conjunct the Sun within a degree or so. That would be the kind of example, for Pluto-Neptune-Uranus-Saturn-Jupiter-Mars, that would be interesting to explore. WOULD THEY EXHIBIT THAT PLANET'S BEHAVIOR, LOSE IT, OR AMPLIFY IT? Perhaps list members can relate some examples for us. Dave

I'll bite here: I have Pluto 7.5 degrees from my Sun, though it is out-of-quality, being in Libra, not Virgo. I am however, a highly intense, Scorpionic, in demeanor, dress, interests, even taste of music. There is some redundancy in my chart, given that I am a Scorpio Rising and 8th house Moon.
When I was younger I was an overacheiver (valedictorian, eagle scout, etc.), though one could say I burnt out. My brother died when I was 8.

Pluto is strongly wired into my chart, making aspects with just about everything. It is exactly square my Saturn and nodes.

Anyway, I have two friends who have Scorpio combust the Sun -- one about 7.5 degrees in Libra, and another almost exactly conjunct (in Scorpio).

From my experience, I would say that the
The first is the Black Man for a 100-yr old coven in Pennsylvania, and has had a near-death experience. He has a stronger drive, discipline and determination in his spiritual practices than anyone I've ever met. He is a Scorpio Rising, too. His does have a Capricorn Moon.

The second is in the goth subculture, and aspires to be a Suicide Girl (alternative pinup model) and is into S&M. Of course, being a Scorpio, it's hard to tell where one energy ends, and the other begins.

I realize this isn't a lot of data to go on, but my general impression is that I haven't seen any lessening of energy.