different path systems: WHY???

[rebecca-smiles]

OK here is where my confusion lies, i have looked around at various tarot as paths between sefirot systems and have felt overloaded by the information and can't seem to find a satisfactory understanding of the differences, like why? (i wont even pretend to have remembered the names of said systems).
For each of the paths there seems to be an abundance of info as to why that trump for that path; the names of the sefirot, alphabets, planets, zodiac signs, more alphabets...

OK i get the fool; i quote one such example from the forum:

"The initial impulse becoming conscious in order for the map of creation to occur. In order for the sphere of the zodiac to become manifest, thought has to take place (Air), and that which allows thought to occur is the first impulse. On a human level, the Fool allows his movements to be guided by his primal spiritual instincts, the primal spiritual energy within him and each of us. Allowing himself such movement, through reflection he becomes conscious of the same"

from 'Reflection on the golden dawn's path allocation' thread. in studying the kabbalah, top of this forum.

Well, i sort of get it. Why he is first and we start at the top of the tree. Here is where it all goes wrong for me:

I have grown up with RJ Stuarts stuff, my mum is an ardent follower of his work, so naturally the first 'tree' i come across is his 'the miracle tree' book.

Here is how i understand the tarot this way around on the tree;
(i shall just put the sefirot by the names given).

Kether: origin
Chokma: wisdom
Binah:understanding
Chesed: mercy
Geburah: severity
Tifret: beauty
Netsach: exaltation
Hod: brilliance
Yesod: foundation
Malkut: kingdom

Starting at the Bottom of the tree, we ascend it (pilar of severity) and return to our origin as the ego is broken down and decend the tree (pilar of grace) as the elements of our actual/true selves are harmonised; we return to the world. (central pilar is experienced both ways).

Fool: kingdom-brilliance
Magician: brilliance-foundation
Chariot: brilliance- beauty
Devil: brilliant -severity
Tower: severe-beauty
Death: severe-understanding
Hanged man: understanding-beauty
Hermit: understanding-origin
Hierophant: origins-wisdom
Temperance: wisdom-beauty
Emperor: wise- mercy
Strength: mercy-beauty
Empress: mercy- exaltation
The lovers: beauty-exaltation
High priestess: exaltation-foundation
World: exalted- kingdom

Moon: kingdom-foundation
Sun: foundation-beauty
Star: beauty-origin

Wheel of fortune: brillance-exaltation
Justice: severity-mercy
Judgment: understanding-wisdom

The way i undrestand these alocations is that each card reflects the nature of the sefirot. Taking the pillar of severity as the first leg of the journey, for example:

Devil: brilliant severity: Something brilliant; bright light, fire, diamond, clarity. Severity: scathing, intense, catabolic, without reserve.
Together the idea of being faced with ourselves as a warning before the journey: what we cling to, what we desire, what repulses us we shall meet on the tree and be asked to abondon it (the tower, the hanged man and death). The devil serves as mirror to ourselves, and warning about ourselves- brilliant severity.

Tower: severe-beauty: that beautiful stripping away to reveal what trully lies beneath, what is trully essential, a purging fire, being placed in a curcible to extract the metal from the ore; again a severe expereince to reveal beauty and a step towards restoring harmony.

Death: severe-understanding: what quicker or more intense way to again understanding than being faced with one's own mortality? to be reduced from something to nothing? the understanding brought by realising mortality is a sever way of gaining perspective.

I wanted to post these insights, accurate or not, for comment/feedback. Because this seems to make more sense to me than having, say;the hanged man, strength, justic and the lovers on that side of the tree. All of the above palcements make a certain amount of sense to me, and i'm left wondering why other systems do not?

especially because other systems look like the fools journey- top to bottom; from origin into the world; although that makes sense as archetypes outside of the sphere of human experience, as adult humans looking at the tree we aren't making that journey: we start from where we are; in the world.

Please, please can anybody enlighten me on this?! andy feedback on why you think this system works/sucks, HOW others make sense (i don't count something as being the oldest, most original as explanation of making sense. i want to know how it works) but without blinding me with lots of hebrew or arcane words and correlations?

I'm struggling and agonising over this! :(

[rebecca-smiles]

Also, on the above system, you can be anywhere on the tree at any time, and can jump from one to any other; there is no real given order, just a 'typical' general progression. Is this the same in other systems? only there seems a set pattern.

Another dumb rookie question: i have read quite a bit on this forum (with most of it going over my head; i'm not a slow learner :) it's just the starting level of conversation seems to be 'advanced'

So... fplks here talk about numerous alphabets, aphabetical arrangements, plantes, etc etc. Learning one way i can understand, but many? why? What do you do with what seems like vast amounts of technial informantion? can you read with it? do you use it for something else? eh?

[venicebard]

The answer to why there are so many is that there are different ways of applying Hebrew letters to paths, and different ways people have of applying trumps to letters. As I grasp things -- and I have only begun to tackle the paths, having concentrated on letter-to-trump connexions (where I reject the modern methods altogether and adopt a letter-to-number system that was extant when tarot arose) and the Sefirot -- the Hermetic pattern of paths and Isaac Luria's pattern are the ones I have found that show some promise of being authentic traditions, though I would like to consider your arrangement above when I can find more time. The Hermetic one might relate to the 'Tree of Return' while Luria's relates to the original 'spinning out' of the Tree in the process of creation or the Fall (since it contains the 'lightning stroke', the paths leading from each number to the next, which the Hermetic pattern lacks in the case of 3 to 4). In other words, both may be valid and refer to different contexts. But while I might apply the principle of Luria's -- 3 mothers to the horizontals, 7 doubles to the verticals, and 12 simples to the diagonals -- I am tempted to juggle the individual choices he made.

May luck attend your quest.

[venicebard]

Moon: kingdom-foundation
Sun: foundation-beauty
Star: beauty-origin

Wheel of fortune: brillance-exaltation
Justice: severity-mercy
Judgment: understanding-wisdom
These make some sense and are obviously the backbone of the system. The bardic system of distributing trumps, for instance, has a central vertical axis in which the 'Magician' surmounts the World, beneath which is the Devil, while surmounting the 'Magician' is Justice (i.e. Law), while surmounting Law is the Lover: these last two show the two stages of Christian revelation (Judaic, and Messianic).

[jmd]

I'll just here concur with Venicebard in the reason why: "The answer to why there are so many is that there are different ways of applying Hebrew letters to paths, and different ways people have of applying trumps to letters".

There are even questions as to whether there are any so-called 'paths' on the Tree of Life, and, when some are represented, how many (for example, some early models have sixteen).

There certainly are twenty-two letters of the Hebrew alphabet (though some have two forms, and some have two sounds). It is this instance that has lead to various attributions being made. Which card Alef is linked to, however, is differently made by different people - so even those who suggest a particular location on the Tree of Life for Alef will then have to also reconcile which Tarot card is supposedly correlated - and also possibly drop or in other ways reconcile the suggestion that all letters are placed in (a) circle(s) or (a) sphere(s) (as mentioned in the Sefer Yetzirah).

[rebecca-smiles]

These make some sense and are obviously the backbone of the system. The bardic system of distributing trumps, for instance, has a central vertical axis in which the 'Magician' surmounts the World, beneath which is the Devil, while surmounting the 'Magician' is Justice (i.e. Law), while surmounting Law is the Lover: these last two show the two stages of Christian revelation (Judaic, and Messianic).

Thanks, venicebard and jmd.
I'm curious as to how such attributions are made, like the ones above, or how people attribute Aleph to a particular card. Presumably there is a logic to it, but the only books on the subject that i have browsed through don't give any such explaination (and the ones that probably do just blind me with information). I figure that if i can work out the logic behind how people make these attributions i will have a much better starting point for learning a system.

So what is the logic behind the magi, devil and justice placings then?

[venicebard]

Thanks, venicebard and jmd.
I'm curious as to how such attributions are made, like the ones above, or how people attribute Aleph to a particular card. Presumably there is a logic to it, but the only books on the subject that i have browsed through don't give any such explaination (and the ones that probably do just blind me with information). I figure that if i can work out the logic behind how people make these attributions i will have a much better starting point for learning a system.Simple: the Hebrew letters in their alef-bet order are assigned to trumps in their numerical order, but with some starting with I LeBateleur ('Magician') and with some LeMat (Fool). Then, some insert LeMat between, what is it, XX and XXI, and some, I guess, place it on the end.

As for the system I referred to as bardic, it is based on numbers evidently given tree-letters in medieval Irish literature as well as (I believe) Welsh poetic (bardic) tradition, which are only known for 0-16 but easily reconstructed for 17-21, based on Robert Graves's (in The White Goddess) 22-letter form reconstructed from 20-letter ogham. These numbers are linked symbolically to the tree-letters and thus my candidate for the guiding impulse in ranking the trumps of the Tarot of Marseilles (but I am in a minority of one).
So what is the logic behind the magi, devil and justice placings then?Can't help you here, except to point out that some have reversed VIII Justice and XI Force to make the lion in the latter coincide with Leo and the scales in the former with Libra even though Leo comes before Libra. This is one of the funnier meddlings, as in the bardic system XI Force, as 11-tinne-holly -- which is Hebrew tav, the 'force' of one's oath or mark (signature, one's X) -- already finds itself at leo (I speak of signs, others of constellations), while VIII Justice -- the weighing of two four-fold or earthly things (earth being 4th among elements) -- is F, fearn, the alder, at aries (the head), hence the wielder of the scales, not the scales (libra the loins) themselves.

[rebecca-smiles]

Interesting and insightful, venicebard, thankyou.

How important is it to know many layers of attribution? It seems complicated and i'm not sure how so many layers of meaning and attributions (i've seen trees with so much info on you can hardly see the sefirot any more!) are useful before it becomes simply an intellectual exercise. Can one learn the kabbalah with just knowing the sefirot, and perhaps one layer of path attributions (cards/alphabet)?

And what do you DO with so much information, anyway! :)

[venicebard]

How important is it to know many layers of attribution? It seems complicated and i'm not sure how so many layers of meaning and attributions (i've seen trees with so much info on you can hardly see the sefirot any more!) are useful before it becomes simply an intellectual exercise. Can one learn the kabbalah with just knowing the sefirot, and perhaps one layer of path attributions (cards/alphabet)?

And what do you DO with so much information, anyway! :)I am an anomaly, but I have studied (and utilized in my approach to life, of course) Kabbalah over the course of more than three decades and I am only now just getting around to studying the paths seriously. Most who study the paths have no understanding of the underlying Merkabah teaching on which it is based, that is, knowledge of the 4 wheels (Ophanim) of Ezekiel's vision. Yet these latter are fundamental to understanding Kabbalah, the paths if anything dependent upon them. For the Sefirot themselves are the first ten signs of the round -- leading from up/aries to back/capricorn, which is oneself (ahead is other, back is self) and thus the Shekhinah (the divine Presence, in an individual), for Kabbalah had it that the Sefirot progress from ain, 'nothing' (nothing distinct from the One, the Whole), to ani, 'I', by transposition of yod and nun -- all 13 of which signs -- 12 plus the return to the first -- constitute the 13 middot or divine attributes of early Kabbalah. But this aspect of the teaching is no longer commonly known nor commonly taught (I had to figure it out from the surviving fragments of the teaching).

[The 4 wheels, by the way, are: (1) one centered atop the head of standing Adam Qadmon, meaning Upright Sentience itself (the eternal 'Platonic' Form thereof, which 'creates' and governs the universe by teleological causation, that is, by all things seeking it), (2) that same wheel in seated Adam (half the height of the 1st), in whom human and archetype are conjoined, (3) that centered at the heart of seated Adam (zodiac of seated torso, half the height of the 2nd), and (4) the round of the womb of man (half the height of the 3rd), which is the womb of time (the present instant or vault of space, dark because it is the womb). These wheels are the suits Batons-Swords-Cups-Coins, respectively: the first three are the 'three mothers' (of Sefer Yetzirah), since they have other wheels in their 'bellies', the 'seven doubles' are the 7 signs of the manifested or lower half of the 2nd wheel (i.e. the surroundings from horizon without to horizon within), and the 'twelve simples' are the signs of the 3rd wheel (the 4th wheel is the opening at the base of intermediate mem, the 3rd wheel alef, the 2nd shin, and the 1st mem-sofit, the rectangular box in which the Ark is kept, before which intermediate mem prostrates itself [in the name of the letter]).]

Why so many meanings? Poetic meaning and magical meaning are the same thing and involve the meanings of any one of the 22 letters or 10 Sefirot or 4 letters of the Name at various levels or layers of reality. For example, ultimately the letters explain the very structure of matter -- unify the findings of modern science in a way not yet dreamt of by that science -- while they also refer to psychology, the arts, and other sciences as well (such as cosmology, and alchemy). In each such sphere of its relevance a given unit in this structure may manifest as a different symbol: leo is a lion, but it is also holly, tree of the satiric anti-hero (waning year), who takes over when the oak-hero (waxing year) is sacrificed at midsummer. The sign scorpio is a scorpion, yet also a serpent and an eagle -- even a griffon, apparently, in the first druidic hymn the ancient druid Amairgin ever pronounced on Irish soil -- each manifesting a particular aspect of scorpio. But knowing the basis ties the symbols together, and the many systems that are around today that are not rooted in that basis contain correlations inconsistant with it. IMO.

[rebecca-smiles]

Thank you Venicebard for your input. It is much apprieciated.

A friend of my mums said "the trouble with the kabbalah is it is like a hat stand; you can hang anything on it!"

- i guess it is a matter of finding a system that hangs well?

I got the sefer yetsirah today, and will look you the four wheels etc too.

cheers :)

[kwaw]

A friend of my mums said "the trouble with the kabbalah is it is like a hat stand; you can hang anything on it!"



I always considered that its virtue :)

Kwaw

[job]

Thank you Venicebard for your input. It is much apprieciated.

A friend of my mums said "the trouble with the kabbalah is it is like a hat stand; you can hang anything on it!"

- i guess it is a matter of finding a system that hangs well?

I got the sefer yetsirah today, and will look you the four wheels etc too.

cheers :)

This is a fantastic thread! Thanks :)

[Llynn]

Hello rebecca-smiles, thanks for starting this thread. I started learning Tarot in my teens and only came to study Kabbalah in my late thirties. My first books followed the Golden Dawn System but somehow their attributions did not grab me, but then I read WG Gray and something clicked. I followed on with RJ Stewart's works and it's to their systems and correspondences that I relate. When I read the history and found even more ways of placing Tarot on the Paths then I felt at liberty to use a Tree and Tarot correspondence that worked for me. I don't feel any need to join any order to pursue my studies - I have a deep seated reluctance to embrace bureaucratic or hierarchical organisations - therefore I don't have to follow their system. (There are Hedge Witches and Hedge Druids, can you have a Hedge Kabbalist/Qabalist/Cabalist?) That's not to say that you can't learn from all the variations - it keeps you on your mental toes - but it's to Gray and Stewart that I return.

The Tree and Kaballah are for personal use and development and it only matters that you feel comfortable with your Tree; let it grow, and be amazed at what develops.
~Llynn

[venicebard]

A friend of my mums said "the trouble with the kabbalah is it is like a hat stand; you can hang anything on it!"Kwaw may like this, but I agree with your mom's friend, at least about Kabbalah in its modern guise.
I got the sefer yetsirah today, and will look you the four wheels etc too.As far as I know, the four wheels are not discussed much: they were the concealed understanding underlying much of what is spoken about: the four worlds of Lurianic Kabbalah are the wheels themselves, but this is not overtly stated anywhere that I know of.

The only mention of the four Ofanim (spirit-wheels, as I sometimes call them) is in the first chapter of Ezekiel, the chapter that formed the basis of the Work of the Chariot, that is, the Merkabah tradition out of which Kabbalah sprang once it made contact with the Brito-Irish bardic lore that accompanied Arthur and Tristan to Provence-Languedoc (the land-and-era of the Troubadours) in the 12th century . . . or at least that is the only explanation I can find for the form the Kabbalah took on the surface. Indeed no-one has ever presented me with a better one, considering the provable kinship between Irish tree-letters and early Hebrew/Phoenician, and between the former and square-Hebrew letters once one accepts the two letters (bringing 20-letter ogham up to 22) which Robert Graves hypothesizes (in The White Goddess) were concealed letters, Aa-palm and Ii-mistletoe. For yod is suspended above the line to represent the fact that the latter (or loranthus, its eastern counterpart) is rooted in a tree, not in the ground.

I just didn't want you to be surprised not to find much directly discussing the wheels: Ezekiel 1:1 is the ultimate source (that and reason).

[rebecca-smiles]

Lynn, thank goodness i'm not the only one! it's good to know there is someone to relate to!

Venicebard: thankyou for pointing that out. I think i'm too bewilldered to notice anyway! all that alphabet stuff goes clear over my head :)