Aeclectic Tarot Forum - The Bohemian Gothic Tarot

baba-prague

15-03-2007, 17:48

I've been out this evening.

Well, we've had this one planned for four years now (really) but I just felt we weren't ready to do a dark deck until now. Then the Victorian Romantic turned out to have its Dark Sister (we couldn't call it that - we sell a lot outside English speaking countries now so we felt the word "Gothic" was needed as it's well understood. Still, I think I may always think of it as the Dark Sister myself). The Dark Sister just began howling at the windows all winter - but she had to wait for the Cats to be finished (she likes cats, but she wasn't pleased to wait).

It's taken a lot of thinking about how to do it so that it's dark but not shlocky (is that a word?) I wanted something that felt like a very old Victorian Gothic story - things in the shadows, beautiful women of dubious history (as I said on my blog, I feel that the Queen of Swords is a great deal older than she looks), strange hauntings... all that. Alex wanted something beautiful - he believes that dark ugly images are a bad thing for the spirit - when the darkness has beauty in it, it transforms into something more useful and thought-provoking.

Anyway, here is another taster, the High Priestess. Please bear in mind that knowing us, these will get tweaked a bit between now and the autumn. It's a long, long way to go yet (by the way, the barn owl is my favourite barn owl in the world - she is dear who was rescued here with a bad wing, she loves people and I've held her a few times - but I digress a lot!)

Oh - and yes, it's borderless. I never thought we'd do a borderless deck, but these images seemed to demand it (we tried various dark borders and they just closed everything in too much).

Picks Hearthcricket off the floor, dusts her down and offers her the smelling salts...

.traveller.

15-03-2007, 17:57

Oh dear, just when I was thinking I was done buying decks for a while. Guess I better start saving up for that silver edition, never been tempted by the limited editions before now.

baba-prague

15-03-2007, 18:12

For those who didn't spot this on my blog today. It's loosely based on a photo in an antique book that we have. But it's been redrawn as the original was so old and blurry. But I have had her marked as "MUST use this image" for quite some time now. Alex did the most astonishing job with this figure.

The first thought may be "She's young for the Queen of Swords". But is she really?

jackdaw*

15-03-2007, 18:15

She's stunning - and I think that she may look young, but she's in fact ageless.

Actually, that's a bit conceited to say, because I think she looks like ME!

HearthCricket

15-03-2007, 18:20

Anyway, here is another taster, the High Priestess. Please bear in mind that knowing us, these will get tweaked a bit between now and the autumn. It's a long, long way to go yet (by the way, the barn owl is my favourite barn owl in the world - she is dear who was rescued here with a bad wing, she loves people and I've held her a few times - but I digress a lot!)

Oh - and yes, it's borderless. I never thought we'd do a borderless deck, but these images seemed to demand it (we tried various dark borders and they just closed everything in too much).

Picks Hearthcricket off the floor, dusts her down and offers her the smelling salts...

LOL Thank you! I wanted no borders for two reasons. One is that it would be that much more different from your other decks and just give it that extra uniqueness, and secondly, the whole dark, mysterious aspect to it-lovely but deeply haunting-seemed to cry out "no borders". The few images there really have a beautiful, seductive nature to them. Seductive in the meaning of being inviting, like they are asking you to walk right into the deck and experience it with them. And maybe that is also why I like the lack of borders.

I LOVE the light coloured gloves on the High Priestess. They match her skin tone, but looking closer you realise she has gloves on, thus the mystery surrounds her, perfectly. I am having a blast with several decks, and an autumn release is perfect. I really do hope it is out and in my hands a few weeks before Halloween so I can use her most of October, to warm up! Being in New England the pumpkins and cornstalks and decorations start spilling out into yards and porches in September, so "she" will be a nice companion during the long evenings and firelight, and a silver special edition....grabbing silver candlesticks, putting dark bayberry candles in them, looking for my dark blue or purple spread cloth....making plans....need a bag for her. Will buy several decks. Expecting this to easily outdo my Gothic Vargo, which I love, too. :D

faunabay

15-03-2007, 18:22

OH! OH! OH! The DarK Sisters!!!!! I bow down to the magnificance of Karen and Alex! (giggle) Actually I'm serious! I can NOT wait!
I love the borderless look. I can see what you mean Karen, black borders would close it in too much IMO. And no matter what you name it this will always be the Dark Sisters to me. :*

baba-prague

15-03-2007, 18:25

We found the image in an antiquarian bookshop - but it was one of a shelf of books we were going through and between us we managed to get totally confused about which book had this image. Bit of a panic as Alex badly wanted this particular High Priestess, partly because of the gloves (references to episcopal gloves of course). Anyway, we just dragged home as many of the books as we could afford and eventually found her. The face is completely changed from the original - there is an artist who I will say more about later, I wanted the faces to resemble his (not quite his as this one needed basically to be drawn, but based on the heavy-eyed almost pre-Raph types he does).

The pillars are from Kutna Hora here - a friend (the one we were out with tonight) took the oriiginal pictures for us. They look almost African I think - but in fact are well and truly European. Czech is so full of riches like this.

I don't want to say too much about the symbols as yet though - somehow if we voice them too much it can cut off the imaging of them. They are sort of spilling on to the screen right now - I think this deck has been brewing (or brooding?) a long time.

HearthCricket

15-03-2007, 18:34

I don't want to say too much about the symbols as yet though - somehow if we voice them too much it can cut off the imaging of them. They are sort of spilling on to the screen right now - I think this deck has been brewing (or brooding?) a long time.

Yes, but wow! The sunlight momentarily gleaming down through the stormy clouds, behind her. One pillar in the sun, the other kept deep in shadow. Oooh, such lovely layers! Knowledge and mystery all bound in one. I am dying to know about what she is holding. It looks like the elixir of life-alchemy red, philosopher's stone in liquid...am I too excited? :)

whipsilk

15-03-2007, 18:35

Hello Karen & Alex -
Well, the High Priestess is simply stunning; I was bowled over like I've never experienced before. The Queen of Swords (yep, it is she) is lovely too (as jackdaw said, she's ageless). I've loved -- no, been enchanted by -- all your other decks (save one), and own them all. This deck, I know, is going to be my ne plus ultra deck. I love the fact that the cards are borderless (yay!), even more I'm taken by a silver limited, which I'll have, thank you very much. As you might guess from my avatar, I'm very attached to my dark side, but haven't ever found the right deck for it yet -- and now I have.

As to the name -- I really do love Dark Sister; it's so evocative. How about using Gothic in a subtitle, e.g. Dark Sister: A Gothic Tarot? That covers all your bases -- non-English speakers as well as those of us who'll never think of her as anything other than Dark Sister.

I'll eagerly await autumn, "on needles and pins-uh".

HearthCricket

15-03-2007, 18:38

As to the name -- I really do love Dark Sister; it's so evocative. How about using Gothic in a subtitle, e.g. Dark Sister: A Gothic Tarot? That covers all your bases -- non-English speakers as well as those of us who'll never think of her as anything other than Dark Sister.

Oh, nice! Or "The Bohemian Gothic Tarot; Dark Sister". :D

baba-prague

15-03-2007, 18:43

No, we won't change the name now. Partly just for boring, practical reasons - it's all been sent off to Amazon etc (we have to do all this months in advance).

But I think there is really another reason. I have a feeling this deck needs its public, rather generic name and also a more hidden, personal name. Or have I been reading too much Le Fanu and Poe?

I can't explain. Maybe best not to try?

connegrl

15-03-2007, 18:45

My interest has been sparked! I really like borderless decks. I wish more decks lacked borders. I'm just not up to hacking borders off yet. LOL There is a quality to these cards that invites you in, seduces you. I look forward to it. I may very well be suckered in! I love the production quality of baba decks.

Jen

Apocalipstick

15-03-2007, 18:49

Wow! So far, this looks like the Tarot version of all those delicious Victorian horror stories.

I can't wait to see more of it!

HearthCricket

15-03-2007, 18:55

But I think there is really another reason. I have a feeling this deck needs its public, rather generic name and also a more hidden, personal name. Or have I been reading too much Le Fanu and Poe?

Like harps! One public name, one hidden one. Dark Sister is her Aeclectic Tarot name...her loving pet-name, so to speak. After all, the Victorians thrived on nicknames given to their loved ones! Then again, I've been reading too much Radcliff, Bronte and Leroux! :) She is a beauty, that is for certain. I can't wait to know more about that King of Pentacles, is it? Who looks like a crusader, ready to rise from his grave... His face, from what I can make out of it, reminds me of those dark kings of men in the Lord of the Rings movie-both the nazgul ones and the ones in the mountain, whose souls needed to be released? I love this deck!

Apocalipstick

15-03-2007, 18:59

Is there any way you could share a close-up of the Tower please? Pretty Victorian cherub-laden please?

Ooops, wrong type of Victorian please. Ehrm. Anyway.

The picture on the site looks terribly intriguing, but it's so small. More of it would be a treat.

Pumpkin

15-03-2007, 19:03

baba-prague

15-03-2007, 19:06

I'll show some more tomorrow if that's okay - off to bed now (plus I want to make sure the card is actually large enough to be seen - it's literally a very dark card). The Tower is based around two gargoyles - one of them really chilling I think - a bird - eagle probably, certainly a bird of prey - with the head of a man.

A lot of the imagery we're doing really is quite shuddery - but in a weird way. You don't see blood and gore at all. As Apocalipstick said, like those Victorian ghost and horror stories that you read and that then get into your dreams (well, mine).

Apocalipstick

15-03-2007, 19:09

I'm swooning already.

I can't wait to see it!

Good night. Happy haunted dreams. ;)

jackdaw*

15-03-2007, 19:11

Is there a link on your web site for the blog? I haven't seen it.I don't know if we're allowed to link to blogs, so go to baba store and go to the bottom of the left-hand column. There's a link there for Newsletter and Blog or something similar.

RaeBelle

15-03-2007, 19:53

From what I've seen so far, it looks lovely! Perhaps it will be a birthday present from me to me!

ZenMusic

15-03-2007, 20:22

awwww,, i just received the GOLD Victorian Romantic today....

now I see the new Bohemian Gothic... .. I'll have to have it also.. I love Gothic and it looks beautiful so far

Granville

15-03-2007, 20:26

I was just getting satisfied that my Golden Kitties would be arriving home soon and then I could stop yearning for tarot decks. I had already determined what my number 1 deck of the year would be and was hoping to sit back, relax and get ready for a pleasant tarot summer.

.....And now this.....sigh.....The High Priestess is unbelievable....This deck is just amazing.....before it comes out I am sure I will be out of superlatives.....

I can already picture myself curled upstairs reading the companion book. Hmmm, just a thought, but a special edition companion book with full color images of these cards might be required. I would not care what the book costs - I need to lose a few pounds anyway, so I could save my lunch money until Fall. I just feel these cards are so special, they need a full color book to accompany them.....Just a thought!

RubyV

15-03-2007, 21:22

Swoon.

When is the preorder?

Drool.

a_shikhs

16-03-2007, 03:13

OMG!!! Another baba deck. :bugeyed: Wowwww!!! This deck is gorgeous. :love: What a perfect deck to read with this halloween. :D The cards are hauntingly beautiful. I can't wait to see more cards now. :)

Little Baron

16-03-2007, 04:23

I hope there will be some beautiful dark brothers in there too. I am still waiting on that perfect Knight of Cups - even though I loved the VR one.

Ok, back to the Prague and Menagerie. I am sure there will be many pages of 'loving and drooling' to follow, so someone give me a shout when the deck is baked and ready to eat.

LB

baba-prague

16-03-2007, 04:52

There will definitely be pale, beautiful young men - and less beautiful men with strange eyes too :)
(It's actually rather hard to find beautiful Victorian men - they tended to look so mustachioed and buttoned-up in their pictures)

Here is The Tower. I hope it's easy enough to see (may eventually need some tweaking, it IS rather dark). The full moon? We wanted an implication of transformation - not quite werewolves but man - in fact a crowned king - frozen into the body of an eagle...the moment of catastrophy.

baba-prague

16-03-2007, 06:36

I think this one is genuinely frightening. I'll be interested to hear your reactions.

6 Haunted Days

16-03-2007, 06:40

WOW I am really loving the 9 of swords, spectacular! Very eerie. Perfect.

Eco74

16-03-2007, 06:45

*claps hands jumps around and squeeeels of joy* :D

Silver edition you say? Must have...
Love the victorian horror-stories and the cards shown sofar definitely have that feel to them that creeps up into the shadows and just ... lurks ... :)

baba-prague

16-03-2007, 06:57

Yes, we think the ink overlays need to be silver on this one - gold wouldn't quite fit. And we are getting in a really nice card stock too.

So far our thinking is that the limited edition will come with a bag - but it will have to be one standard bag (but we can make others available separately). I think a bag might be nice - though it will put the price up. But perhaps worth it to people, especially if we can do a really stunning "silver" Gothic bag?

temperlyne

16-03-2007, 06:58

la-luna

16-03-2007, 06:59

Little Baron

16-03-2007, 07:00

Not sure about the '9 of Swords' Karen. I don't find it frightening. For me, the '9 of Swords' is that deep fear you get when you sit bolt-upright at night. I have had this many times with visions and feeling of presence in my room. Laying there with my heart beating 100mph. But in the card, it looks almost pantomime - kind of like the woman is dancing with them happily - a little bit Ghostbusters or Casper. I don't get any anxiety from it. The Tower is much more of a scary image, I would say. Is that the kind of response you were expecting, or different? It's just an honest one.

LB

baba-prague

16-03-2007, 07:02

baba-prague

16-03-2007, 07:05

very haunting one perhaps even the best 9 of swords i have seen !
bit also disturbing it looks very much like a dream i recently had with that difference that i was in the place this troubled denzel is here.
and it continued in a sepulchre cellarr with lots of wine and a very hairy fiddler with whom my departed godmother wanted me to marry (strange dream i have)

if that 's not i sign i must havethis deck !!

Sounds like a seriously disturbing dream, and, as I say, a fiddler is in the deck (more of a beautiful young boy than a hairy man though). Sepulchral cellars will definitely feature - and graveyards and more castles and big, draughty old houses.

fall_guy

16-03-2007, 07:16

I like the look of this deck. I love the creepy atmosphere and the 9 and Queen of Swords look great.

I originally thought the Victorian Romantic would have a darker moody theme, with murky Victorian settings. Some of the VR cards hinted at this (e.g 9 of Swords, Queen of Swords), but in the end the overall romantic and angelic theme just wasn't for me.

I've been looking for a spooky deck for quite a while, and resigned myself to buying either the Archeon or Vargo. Thank you for expanding my options!

Little Baron

16-03-2007, 07:17

This looks much more interesting than the Archeon, FG. Then again, if you are after that, I have it up for trade.

LB

fall_guy

16-03-2007, 07:25

This looks much more interesting than the Archeon, FG. Then again, if you are after that, I have it up for trade.

LB
Thanks LB, but I after seeing this new deck, the Archeon is dead and buried.

The way the Archeon has been described on this forum (spooky, mysterious, autumnal etc) made me think it would be the perfect 'dark' deck for me. However when I saw the images, they just bored me.

From what I've seen so far, this new deck might be worth all the gushing.

HearthCricket

16-03-2007, 07:39

The lady in the 9 of swords doesn't look like she wants to be a part of that dans macabre, but she has no choice but to dance it.
Has anyone of you ever been to the amusement park "The Efteling" In the Netherlands? In the haunted castle a solitary violin playes the dans macabre while elegant ghostly creatures reluctantly dans to its tunes. This card reminded me of it.

I so agree with you! The look on her face is not one of joy, but rather despair, as though she has no will of her own and must dance with the skeletons. Also, there are more of them, than her, and they seem taller and overpowering her. This reminds me of a particular scene in Legend where the princess has been enchanted and is gracefully, but unwillingly dancing with that macabre looking creature and she suddenly goes goth looking! I love it when I can associate a card with a movie scene or a book. It makes it so much richer. This is a very hauntingly disturbing card~like something out of a nightmare.

I must add that I love the fact that you have kept away from the blood and gore and instead replaced it with creepy, eerie, haunting scenes and details that do crawl into your mind and simmer there! They are very chilling, like ghost stories and legends told around the fire on Christmas night that have been passed down through the ages. It is the dark side of Prague, the mystique and the spectral side of the Victorian age and eras past...

Embla

16-03-2007, 07:41

Karen, would it be possible to share the original picture that inspired the BG Queen of Swords? I am so curious.

HearthCricket

16-03-2007, 08:11

Why do I have the feeling a scene from Rappaccini's Daughter (Hawthorne) would fit well in this deck? :D

baba-prague

16-03-2007, 08:13

Karen, would it be possible to share the original picture that inspired the BG Queen of Swords? I am so curious.

Yes, here she is - beautiful but rather poor quality print which is why so much had to be redrawn. We've also made her rather harder looking - more ageless and less of a straightforwardly sweet girl. We want a lot of shadows and implications in this deck:

la-luna

16-03-2007, 08:14

Sounds like a seriously disturbing dream, and, as I say, a fiddler is in the deck (more of a beautiful young boy than a hairy man though). Sepulchral cellars will definitely feature - and graveyards and more castles and big, draughty old houses.

well at was not a scary type of elder man but more of a young sexual hairy Pan-type (as you see on some ancient Greek statues - with all the details)

baba-prague

16-03-2007, 08:21

Oh, ours is much more fae - he reminds me a little of someone from the film Company of Wolves somehow. But he needs a lot of work before we show him.

However, it's likely there will be some satyrs in the deck.

HearthCricket

16-03-2007, 08:28

Yes, here she is - beautiful but rather poor quality print which is why so much had to be redrawn. We've also made her rather harder looking - more ageless and less of a straightforwardly sweet girl.

Okay, am I the only one not picking up sweetness from her? Her hair is very long and worn down, which is unusual for the Victorians. Her face looks very serious and the dress she is wearing is quite unusual that I can't even place the decade, which I usually can from a picture. She looks very mysterious to me, already! What book is she reading from? What is that large ring on her finger? What sort of dress is that? I like her. She gives me the creeps! lol

delizt

16-03-2007, 08:34

However, it's likely there will be some satyrs in the deck.

oh I can't wait to see them!!!

And just looking at the Nine of Swords I hear eerie strains of Saint-Saëns "Danse Macabre"...it's PERFECT!

la-luna

16-03-2007, 08:36

Okay, am I the only one not picking up sweetness from her? Her hair is very long and worn down, which is unusual for the Victorians. Her face looks very serious and the dress she is wearing is quite unusual that I can't even place the decade, which I usually can from a picture. She looks very mysterious to me, already! What book is she reading from? What is that large ring on her finger? What sort of dress is that? I like her. She gives me the creeps! lol

i feel a severe case of nostalgia and secrecy with her, something she did out of natural instinct /urge. What kind of dark history this sweet innocent girl might hide - she makes me think of a young widow perhaps only been married a few months before death did them part (perhaps by her own hands )

jackdaw*

16-03-2007, 08:42

I see a melancholy sweetness (if that makes any sense) in the completed card. But from the original picture? No, I just get the melancholy.

baba-prague

16-03-2007, 08:51

That's interesting (no really, I need to think about this), because I see far more shades of the beautiful young vampiric Carmilla in the final card:
http://www.sff.net/people/DoyleMacdonald/l_carmil.htm

"She was above the middle height of women. I shall begin by describing her. She was slender, and wonderfully graceful. Except that her movements were languid-very languid- indeed, there was nothing in her appearance to indicate an invalid. Her complexion was rich and brilliant; her features were small and beautifully formed; her eyes large, dark, and lustrous; her hair was quite wonderful, I never saw hair so magnificently thick and long when it was down about her shoulders...There was a coldness, it seemed to me, beyond her years, in her smiling melancholy persistent refusal to afford me the least ray of light. "

Of course, it's only shades. We don't intend any of the cards to explicitly illustrate any particular story, but we do want them to be reminiscent of many.

Apocalipstick

16-03-2007, 09:08

baba-prague

16-03-2007, 09:27

Not to sidetrack from the Queen of Swords discussion (the original picture is lovely, and its transformation into the card is quite perfect), but I've been thinking about the Tower.

(Thank you for sharing it!)

I can see where it being too dark may be an issue, though that didn't bother me. However, it does appear too static, and the Tower is one of least static cards.

I was really thinking of something along the lines of the end tableau in "Fall of the House of Usher," and to see it without even a crack surprised me.

Not that there has to be a crack, I suppose, but there's such brooding intensity to the card, it becomes almost introspective, like it relies too much on the reader's reaction to get the point of the Tower across.

Am I making sense? I feel like I'm meanering around what I'm trying to say.

Yes, I know what you mean - thanks for the input - and the depiction may change in the next months of course (it is our second Tower as it is, and when we begin to change things it often seems to indicate that a card is still not "right"). I think now it's like the moment just before something shocking happens (you know that moment in Gothic film?) but I can't decide if that's really approporate for this card. But there will be a lot of small changes (perhpas some large ones) as the deck takes form. Sometimes you struggle with the content and symbolism of a card, and later go back to deal with the visuals better, other times you struggle and focus on the visuals, and later see better symbolism that could be incorporated. I think we'll be working in both "directions" in the coming months.

Apocalipstick

16-03-2007, 09:36

I think right now it's like the moment just before something shocking happens (you know that moment in Gothic film?)
Exactly!

It has suspense, and it has atmosphere, and there's plenty of tension, but there's still the pinprick of hope that things could still be okay.

That if you just close your eyes and stop staring at the gargoyles and the moon from such a vertiginous angle, then maybe nothing will happen.

At least, that's how I read it.

It's so calm. Ominous, but calm.

The Tower should shake you to the very core, alter your world view, tear asunder your beliefs.

I think my fondness for the card is showing. :D

I'll stop now. I can't wait to see how this deck develops!

Little Baron

16-03-2007, 09:38

Don't know if you missed it, Karen, but was wondering what you thought about my feelings for the '9'. I hope I didn't offend.

LB

baba-prague

16-03-2007, 09:57

Embla

16-03-2007, 10:19

Oh wow. The girl reading, original picture of the Queen of Swords is pure magic. She looks like an apparition. Who was she, originally, do you know? What is the book about where you found her? Thank you so much for sharing her. I can´t believe how long her hair is. And that ring. What is she reading, one wonders... I have so many questions, like HearthCricket...

ilweran

16-03-2007, 12:05

The Queen of Swords is lovely. I wanted to not buy this deck, but I think my will power will be gone by the time it's published :D

baba-prague

16-03-2007, 12:09

The Queen of Swords is lovely. I wanted to not buy this deck, but I think my will power will be gone by the time it's published :D

Well, it will be AGES yet, so don't worry :)

Pumpkin

16-03-2007, 12:42

Yes, here she is - beautiful but rather poor quality print which is why so much had to be redrawn. We've also made her rather harder looking - more ageless and less of a straightforwardly sweet girl. We want a lot of shadows and implications in this deck:

She is beautiful. What does the book say about her? Does it say who she is? What book was she in? Well, if it does not need to be a secret for now. ;)

baba-prague

16-03-2007, 12:46

The book is in German - but I will fish it out at the weekend and see what it says about her :)

Pumpkin

16-03-2007, 12:50

The book is in German - but I will fish it out at the weekend and see what it says about her :)

Thank you. :)

It looks like she took her hair out of a very long braid for the picture with all the ripple waves in her hair.

annik

16-03-2007, 12:56

Oh! This is really good for what we can see! I feel I am a child again. The wait will be long but it will worth it!

Pagan X

16-03-2007, 15:32

"Bohemian Gothic"-- I hear the parallel structure to the "Victorian Romantic"--these are not decks; they are wings of an art museum. Each deck is an exhibition, a gallery, could be used in University to teach period art...

I hope you can get Henry Irving in there somewhere.

Maybe...one gold card? In the Red Death?

shadowomyn

16-03-2007, 19:32

I think that this is the first time I'm planning on pre-ordering both the original deck and the silver version.

I love gothic decks!

Jewel

17-03-2007, 07:32

Still, I think I may always think of it as the Dark Sister myself.
Karen the mini-preview of the deck is exquisite. I understand your dilema with the name. Here at AT I am quite sure this deck will always be known and called "The Dark Sister", you call it whatever works best for marketing *LOL*.

You can jot me down for a copy of the Silver edition. Will this deck come with a book as well?

Jewel

17-03-2007, 07:44

So far our thinking is that the limited edition will come with a bag - but it will have to be one standard bag (but we can make others available separately). I think a bag might be nice - though it will put the price up. But perhaps worth it to people, especially if we can do a really stunning "silver" Gothic bag?
As long as it also comes with the book. Please please please do this limited edition with a book. You know I love my bags, but if given a choice with the set I would like the book and to pick my own bag :D

HearthCricket

17-03-2007, 10:23

I wanted to add that I am really excited about your working with silver, for a change. First of all, it will go best with this Gothic theme. I think of a silvery moon and how lovely it looks against those deeps blues, blacks, greens, etc. The Gold editions are lovely and give a nice subtle antique glow to them. But silver shimmers.

I am sure this sounds strange, but I first noticed this on our Christmas trees. I have lots of shiny gold brass in my house and thus gold garland or gold beads seemed to have the perfect touch on the tree....giving it sort of a rich Ren look. But when I put silver against the trees, I realized that they gleam more. Gold has a tendency to absorb light while silver reflects it. I guess because gold is a warm colour and silver is a cool colour. I noticed the same with your bags. I found the ones with the silver cording handles more eye catching than the gold. I wear gold rings, but for the life of me, I can't wear a gold bracelet or watch. Silver looks a thousand times better around my pale wrist!

So, in a nutshell, I am really exicted about seeing the Silver edition and how it will reflect the light, glitter, etc. Of course, you know that means I may want a silver edition of the Victorian Romantic, if all goes well. :D

jackdaw*

17-03-2007, 11:25

Another silver-lover and silver-wearer adding her thanks!

I don't know if the VR would look quite so good with silver, HC - something in it just calls for gold. But the Dark Sister is a silver deck if ever there was one :)

zhahmi

17-03-2007, 11:27

I don't know if this has been said already, but the Nine of Swords reminds me of a scene in Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell, where Jonathan Strange's wife has been taken to the "underworld" and is forced to dance all night. Such torment involved in this card - it is absolutely stunning.

caridwen

17-03-2007, 11:41

You have another fan here. If I take one to Transylvania will I get it reduced:D

a_shikhs

17-03-2007, 11:47

Silver is a really cool idea and something very very different. Silver has this somewhat cool gothicky feeling to it. I cant wait to see more cards. :D

Little Baron

17-03-2007, 12:33

Hi LB - sorry, I did miss it. No, I think she is horrified and helpless - trapped in a nightmare. It may be that these images are rather small and so the expressions are not that clear. But I don't think there is anything happy in this picture - the grisly phantoms are, I think, very much the ones in control - she is simply being lead - unwilling - in the dance.

I understand. A nice image to play with. I just think that in some situations, skeletons can be a bit cliche and don't really hold much of the 'nightmare' for me when dancing here, that is all.

I really like the idea for a dark deck, Karen, and please don't be offended when I say this. I feel that I should be honest, and all of this 'drooling' and the like in threads like this, flattering as it may be, doesn't really serve much purpose - and isn't that interesting to read [I may even slip on the dribble if I am not careful ;) ]. But as darker as it is, it does feel a touch like decks that you have already created. I know there are obvious differences and you have also found a trademark style, but do you think, as a creator, there is a prospect that you could have become stuck in your ways. As nice as some of the images are to view, do they challenge the two of you creatively? Has it become too easy?

I ask this, not because I want to be confrontational or controversial, but because after working with the Prague for the last couple of weeks, I can see how much raw energy and magic fills that deck, and with later works, as much as they are interesting and thought provoking, those like the VR do not seem to have the same spark.

You know that I think you are one of the more interesting things to hit tarot in a long time and I always appreciate your tarot commentary [in books and here too], so I hope you do not find this post offensive. I am primarily using your decks at the moment [and no others], so it is not a knock on your back-catalogue or reputation as such. I just think they are questions that are worthy of asking, and doubt very much that anyone else will ask them. I have suggested similar things to Ciro. And also feel the same about the Cielo Tarot.

Best, LB

ilweran

17-03-2007, 13:41

Cocobird55

17-03-2007, 13:48

I agree with whomever said that a book would be wonderful. A kit with a deck, bag and book would be perfect! And since the silver is a limited edition, and most people (at least I think so) are buying extra books and bags, raising the price to cover it shouldn't be a problem. I too love the look of silver, and am really looking forward to this deck.

Queen of Pentacle

17-03-2007, 13:49

This coming deck appears just as I have decided to quit collecting.
If it is half as beautifull as the victorian romantic, this will still be a must!
Dark victorian imagery, deep feeling, shadows and silver ink.
A treat is coming!

Gee, I am longing for the fall!

Baba, your artistry is just irresitible... Like your devil in your Victorian romantic tarot.

HearthCricket

17-03-2007, 14:04

LB~I certainly can't speak for Karen, but I feel the same goes for all artists of all kinds. One can recognize a piece of work by Mozart, and Bach often sounds the same. Ciro's 2 decks are certainly very similar, though not exact. Dickens' novels have similar themes, and Hardy's even more so. If you go to a museum you can easily pick out all of Renoir's works from the rest and sometimes it is difficult to figure out which Pre-Raphaelite did a certain painting, as so many look similar in style. And Shakespeare certainly stood on his own with similar language, themes, repetitious phrases, etc.

An artist could go nuts and try every single style, every single colour in the rainbow, try various mediums, various themes. But in the end, the best of them find their niche. That niche, or style, or whatever you want to call it is what becomes not only their trademark, but their own challenge. Magic Realist Press did the BBC's. Then they decided some cards needed a change-they had a better view of things, they made those changes, thus the 2nd edition. The Victorian Romantic is lovely and lush, but has the balance of both light and dark cards. The Bohemian Gothic takes on an entirely new world~remaining in a similar art style that makes them so unique from other artists~and explores a much darker theme, not yet undertaken by Magic Realist Press. You find your nitch and then you try to perfect it. I find it exciting. Like discovering an unpublished Bronte novel. Similar language, similar style, but a new story and theme. I can't imagine this not being an exciting adventure and challenge for them when only looking at a few cards has me mesmorized and already sifting through the layers of imagery and imagining how I would read each card, myself. In a sense we are all artists finding our niche and trying to expand, grow and perfect it. An athlete could try out every sport there is, but if they want perfection, they need to settle down to one and put everything they've got into that one interest.

As for the drooling and the googaa's, that is how one often expresses their delight and their thanks for someone creating a work of art that speaks volumes to them. I, for one, plan to continue the drooling, because this deck is perfect for me. It mixes my love for art, Victorian themes and the mystique all in one, and as I am not too fond of many of the artwork in some of the darker decks, this will finally give me the opportunity to delve into that realm with artwork that I can relish.
:)

rosyelf

17-03-2007, 14:30

In terms of drooling, yes, I do find it a waste of reading space. There was a time on this site when there was some great discussions going on - there were great studies and very interesting comment to get your teeth stuck into. But as time moves on, there is more interest in buy, buy, buy, and less interest in actually doing anything with a deck before moving on. You wait and see how long, after publication, that this deck gets dropped for the next flavour of the month.

LittleBuddha, I both agree with you and disagree with you. ;)

First, the disagreements :

1) Having glanced at FaireMaiden's profile, I note that she writes in this style because she is a Renaissance Faire enthusiast. I'd be VERY surprised if she used it in her everyday dealings with people.

2) That baba decks possess a certain "something" is undoubtedly true-the romanticism, the love of Central European art, the quirky humour, the very high production standards. But are they repeating themselves ? I have all their decks and I really don't think they are. Ploughing a deep furrow, possibly. In ten years' time (gulp !) I would expect their work to look rather different but to still exhibit, almost certainly, some of the same preoccupations and the same high production standards. Art evolves, artists evolve. It does seem amazing to consider that the Tarot of Prague, the very first baba deck, only saw the light of day in the summer of 2003. That's less than 4 years ago.

And, though there have been dark ELEMENTS in the previous decks (as I would want and expect in a balanced Tarot) this new up-and-coming Gothic deck is taking the whole dark thing to a new level. Am I right to assume by the way, Karen, that some of it will be rather tongue-in-cheek, in the manner of the Vampuss book ?

Okay, now the agreements :

I do think there is too much of "Oh-when-can-I buy-the next-new-deck ?" on this Forum of late. Of course it is exciting when we realize something well-made and lovely is in the works (I'm very pleased to see the Bohemian Gothic in the offing, and am also counting the days until the Gold Edition of the BBC lands on my doorstep) but I do agree with you, LittleBuddha, that it's sad to just see so many decks regarded as must-haves and flavour-of the-month. If a deck is really good , it's worth returning to again and again. And again. If it's gimmicky/poorly-made/poorly-produced, why bother with it ?

Apocalipstick

17-03-2007, 14:36

It seems to me that part of what LB was saying, is that there's a certain repetitiveness (beyond artistic consistency) and an accompanying flatness to the BG. I could be very wrong here, though, so everyone take this with a grain of salt.

I don't know about the repetitiveness, since I don't own any MR decks, in spite of their gorgeousness and my personal attraction to the Fantastic Menagerie. The flatness, however, I tend to agree with.

There is so much potential to this deck, and from the few cards Karen, whom I do not know, has shared, there is also a lot of realized potential. It looks to me like the surface is being skimmed on what this deck can offer, and that boundaries of where it can go are still in the process of being tested.

It can be so easy to go over the top with the Victorian Gothic theme, especially since its been rehashed and even parodied nearly endlessly. The cards, so far, show great restraint - they could have easily been campy. It doesn't take much for the genre to go there.

Perhaps there is too much restraint? Not enough comfort zones being broken?

When Victorian horror first hit the market, it provided very real chills to its audience. These days, when it's become a cliche, it may be difficult to disentangle nostalgia from creepiness. These images are safe because we are already familiar with the archetypes presented.

To a Victorian, the image of a woman dancing with skeletons would have been a vastly different experience than to any one of us. What Karen and Alex are doing looks like a distinct attempt to recreate the momentum such a picture might've had for its original audience, which is a monumental task IMO.

I think this "flatness" I'm mentioning has a lot to do with the familiarity with the genre a lot of fans of this deck have. For some, it's pitch perfect. Others, like me, will want the envelope pushed as far as it can go.

Of course, this deck isn't copletely finalized. As such, it shouldn't be held up to the stadards of a finished product. I believe she already mentioned that is still a work in progress.

That being said, these are all points of discussion.

baba-prague

17-03-2007, 14:39

Oh dear. Well, please let's not turn this thread into something confrontational. All opinions are valued by us. Thank-you to several people for the defence - but also thank-you to LB for coming out with an honest attack. I know that in his case it's a real and sincere opinion, not just someone "having a go" - and I'm glad that he gives his opinion in such an honest way.

Is this deck like our others? No, I think that (apart from the general "baba studio style" which of course is just "us" and part of what we are) it only has obvious similarities with The Victorian Romantic - this is where the whole habit of calling it "The Dark Sister" comes from.

In a way the decks will be related to one another. Gothic decks aren't for reading with every day, whereas I find The Victorian Romantic is just a very rewarding day-to-day deck - it's the one I use most as it can go so deep emotionally. But on the days you need a deck for something quite different - exploring dark fantasies and things that are more forbidden and hidden, then The Bohemian Gothic will come into its own. I think both decks - in use - may have something to offer one another.

In practice, I think the two will look related but very different - in fact the technique we are using is a bit different this time and I think the visual style won't feel quite the same.

Is it "easy" for us? If only! No, we have worried a lot over the idea of a dark deck for four years now off and on. Alex and I both find it a very demanding thing to undertake - we seriously discussed not doing it at all as we aren't "Goth" people - just people who love certain aspects of the Gothic. But, well, in the end there isn't a dark deck out there that I feel gets the essence of Gothic as I want it to be (too much that reminds me of the film "Van Helsing", too little that reminds me of Herzog's "Nosteratu" - if you film buffs know what I mean). So that was a huge motivation for us to do the deck.

But LB is right - there is always a danger of artists beginning to rest on their laurels and starting to repeat themselves. For this reason mostly, Alex and I agreed, just after Tarot of Prague, that we would do a very limited number of decks ourselves, and after that will focus on editing and publishing decks by others. So you won't see repeats - I won't say the exact number we agreed on, but we both think it is just enough to let us say what we have to say then stop - always the best artistic decision :)

Little Baron

17-03-2007, 14:49

Interesting posts. The thread has bite.

I am off out soon, but I want to thank those who have responded considerately and open-mindedly to my post.

I appreciate your comments very much Karen. And you know I respect you and Alex :) I don't doubt that I will one day buy this deck to compare and contrast with the others. But in it's progress, I think that varied discussion, on a forum like this, is what AT has always been about.

And just to clarify, I hope you didn't think I meant that I thought your job was easy. I know how hard you work and the endless time and mental energy it takes up. I just meant that I wondered if the physical process, which is alike, had become less challenging in that you know it so much better now.

I know you know me. And hope you all know me better than to think I would be critical for the sake of it.

These were just questions, initially. And questions are good.

LB

baba-prague

17-03-2007, 14:49

Oh, and the question of whether the deck will "push the envelope"? Good question. I just hate what's happened to many dark fantasy and horror films in the last few years. I get bored rigid with ludicrous special effects and blood and gore and in-yer-face shock everywhere. The only thing I've found vaguely interesting has been Terry Gilliam sending up the whole awful genre in his "Brothers Grimm" (was it a send-up? Yes, as far as I know it was - certainly it was hysterically funny at times)

I LOVE the quieter, more insinuating, more suggestive Gothic - and I find it FAR more frightening. So this is what the deck sets out to be. It won't be "Hell Raiser 8" or "Halloween 11", but it will, I hope, have echoes of Poe as illustrated by Harry Clarke (not stylistically, but in terms of atmosphere) - and if we achieve that we'll be very happy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Clarke

Lillie

17-03-2007, 14:58

Interesting thread, and it looks an interesting deck.

I find most 'gothic' or supposedly 'dark' decks pathetically cheesey.
Cartoon vampires.

This deck, from the few cards I have seen, seems to be rather stylish.
'The Dark Sister' has a lovely ring to it.
It's a shame you're not using that name.
To me (probably only to me) the 'gothic' word has all sorts of tacky, cheesey associations.

room

17-03-2007, 15:01

For this reason mostly, Alex and I agreed, just after Tarot of Prague, that we would do a very limited number of decks ourselves, and after that will focus on editing and publishing decks by others.

By editing and publishing decks by others, do you mean publishing original decks by a single artist, in the manner of US Games for instance, or do you mean more of the collaged and coloured clip art style of deck that you've published in the past year?

Apocalipstick

17-03-2007, 15:02

HearthCricket

17-03-2007, 16:09

I'm still dying to see that King of Pentacles up close! He has such a regal and haunting look about him. He looks like he has so many stories to tell. I want to shake him up from his death bed and ask him a few questions!

I've been wanting to tap into my darker side. It looks like you are going to give me that opportunity in a grand way. Now, if I could just get you and Alex to make me up a Gothic reading list for the summer, I will be all set! :D You didn't know I was going to ask for homework, did you?!!

baba-prague

17-03-2007, 16:28

By editing and publishing decks by others, do you mean publishing original decks by a single artist, in the manner of US Games for instance, or do you mean more of the collaged and coloured clip art style of deck that you've published in the past year?

Clip art? Sound of dull thud!

We've never used clip art in our lives - eek. Sorry, I'm sure it wasn't meant that way, but we spent more than $1000 on the source books for the VR - and they took us two years to track down. The problem with clip art is that the quality and resolution tend to be very poor so for this and other reasons we avoid it. Much of the imagery we incorporate into decks is substantially changed and redrawn and in many ways I think it's a different type of collage from most. I suppose the best term I can think of is "seamless collage" - so seamless that in most cases people don't realise the extent to which the image is made by us.

But in answer to the question, I mean we will publish decks by other artists (ie we will not do the artwork ourselves) - though perhaps not US Games style - I just think we might be interested in rather different things. Quite how this will work I'm not sure yet - we have been talking to a few artists and eventually hope that something will come of this. As yet we are not keen to take submissions for decks, although we are interested in talking to artists and illustrators about ideas.

baba-prague

17-03-2007, 16:31

I guess I should clarify "pushing the envelope."

I tend to be bored silly by most recent horror films. They leave little to the imagination, which is where the darkest work is done.

(Maupassant's "La Horla" comes to mind here.)

I certainly do not mean blood, guts, gore. I do however think of the genuine chill (again, that word) that reading M.R. James's "Lost Hearts" brings.

I'm more interested in exchanging ideas than criticism.

Yes, me too. And I took it as discussion, not criticism. Yes, it's the M.R.James, "Turn of the Screw", LeFanu and Stoker type of feeling that we are after. I think basically we're talking about the same thing. But some people may perhaps be disappointed that there won't be graphic monsters and blood in this deck. I think however that the implied style of Gothic just suits tarot better. As you say, it lets things take shape in the imagination.

Have to say that I realise my Irish prejudices (LeFanu, Clarke, Stoker) are showing themselves tonight on this thread but hey, it's St Patrick's Day so I'm allowed :)

room

17-03-2007, 17:53

We've never used clip art in our lives - eek. Sorry, I'm sure it wasn't meant that way, but we spent more than $1000 on the source books for the VR - and they took us two years to track down.

Yes that definition is correct. As well as bundles of images that you can buy, clip art is defined as using images from pre-existing printed works in other publishing projects. The fact that you are not clipping the art but scanning it from pre-existing source books doesn't change that, although you are not using bundled images as distributed by a company like Dover.

Much of the imagery we incorporate into decks is substantially changed and redrawn and in many ways I think it's a different type of collage from most.

Collage is defined as an artistic composition consisting of images from various sources pasted on a picture surface. The word comes from the Latin "colla" and the Greek "kolla" which both mean "glue." If you are "gluing" the images using a computer program that does not change the definition.

I mean we will publish decks by other artists (ie we will not do the artwork ourselves) - though perhaps not US Games style - I just think we might be interested in rather different things.

Well that sounds very interesting, good luck with these new explorations.

faunabay

17-03-2007, 17:55

Come on people!! Let those of us that want to get excited about this deck do so!! AND let others voice some of their thoughts too! LittleBuddha was being very nice IMO bringing up his thoughts without being nasty. Can't we all play nice? :*

faunabay

17-03-2007, 17:56

Clip art? Sound of dull thud!

Karen, most of us know you don't use clip art!! (giggle) Don't worry!

baba-prague

17-03-2007, 18:01

Karen, most of us know you don't use clip art!! (giggle) Don't worry!

Thanks :) I think I'll just let this part of the conversation lie in case the whole thread gets derailed.

But the point I was making is that we redraw the images in most cases - collage artists generally don't do that. It's not to do with how the image is captured and pasted, it's to do with the work - the drawing and colouring - that's then added to it. The problem that leads to confusion, perhaps, is that Alex does this so seamlessly that people can't see it. Which, of course, is the whole idea. We need some term for what we do (perhaps I should invent one ;) ). I think it's actually quite like some film techniques in a way.

Anyway, as I say, going on about this is only going to defocus the thread. Perhaps if it's worth discussing further it could be done in Tarot Creation?

Pagan X

17-03-2007, 18:08

"pushing the envelope" with respect to the horror/gothic genre has become synonymous with pushing the envelope in only one way-- breaking taboos concerning gore and sex.

That's a pity, because there have been many other ways to push the envelope, and Magic Realist tends to be pretty darn envelope pushy:

*Abandoning suit signs
*Diverging from RWS scenes
*Theming a deck around a city, and letting artifacts and architecture star
*Unnumbering the Major Arcana
*Adding variant cards

Magic Realist I think deserves, and has received, much credit in the PTE category.

Other designers' pushes of the Tarot envelope I've admired:

*Removing detail, as in the International Icon Tarot
*HP Lovecraft Tarot
*Halloween Tarot

So far, I've been very impressed with the BG. I considered changing the 9 of swords from a static to an active scene was a form of PTE; so too is a young Queen of Swords. I gave the Queen of Swords some thought and realized that confusion about the roles of the young and the old is one of the trope of Gothic: the "old soul" in the young body.

baba-prague

17-03-2007, 18:14

I gave the Queen of Swords some thought and realized that confusion about the roles of the young and the old is one of the trope of Gothic: the "old soul" in the young body.

Yes, I have been rereading a book on the Gothic in literature and this point comes up. Women who are confident and/or powerful and/or interested in sex are also, in the Gothic, portrayed as divergent from the normal and threatening - and therefore inviting destruction. Once we read, in Dracula, Lucy's petulant suggestion that women be allowed to marry three men at once, we know that she won't last long!

The whole attitude of the Gothic to women is fascinating - we are including many women in the deck and they will not just be victims in diaphanous dresses (need evil grin smilie here).

rota

17-03-2007, 18:55

"We need some term for what we do (perhaps I should invent one ;) ..."

+++++

How about borrowing a term from film-land, and calling it 'photocompositing'?

+++++

Pagan X

17-03-2007, 18:58

I just finished Belford's biography of Stoker. One of the points she makes is that Stoker's novels often had a strong, virtuous female character: the "woman with the brain of a man" who somewho manages the difficult feat of being both capable and not threatening to men.

Goddess knows that's a tricky one to emulate. This set me thinking: the Gothic Woman isn't just a predatory woman--after all, the 1920's Vamp of a woman who, incapable of self-support, drains a man of of his resources via sexual enticement, isn't really all that challenging--but also women who supplant men, threaten men in other ways, other roles. For example, a female figure who took over the role of father in raising a son and molding his masculinity is threatening; women as religious leaders, prophets, ancient yet ageless sources of wisdom; women as mad scientists; women as politicians; women as doctors; women as efficient, strong, lethal soldiers, and so on.

In other words, much Gothic literature focuses on women transgressing the boundaries of their behavior as wives and mothers, nurturing men and children. The idea of women making men *unecessary* also lurks...

There is also the flip fear of scientific men making women unnecessary. Both "Frankenstein" and "Dracula" posit forms of reproduction that do not require women; both have male figures usurping the maternal role; both are made less terrifying int hat respect in that the male figures do such a bad job of it. What if Dr.Frankenstein had accepted his role of sole parent to creatures, had done it well, had created more creatures, a loving, faithful family of superhuman (albeit ugly) members of a New Race?

Apocalipstick

17-03-2007, 20:33

In a lot of respects, there is nothing quite like Frankenstein in gothic literature. For one thing, it doesn't really observe the conventions of Victorian horror, for the simple reason that it predates it.

The point of Dr. Frankenstein is not that he tries and fails as a parent, but that he tries, and fails, as a god. Quite a bit of difference there.

Dracula, however, fully embodies every last bit of Victorian sensibility and anxiety, down to the late-Victorian obssession with honor and integrity of the male being housed in the body of the female. This is by no means a strictly Victorian construct, but a significant amount of Victorian horror depends on male conceptualizations of female sexuality.

Now to return to the Dark Sister, the images of which so far appear to be more Victorian-influenced, hence the comparison with Victorian horror, and not gothic horror in general. Granted, there are only a handful of images to be seen out a total of 78 (or more, if this will be anything like the VR).

In terms of "pushing envelopes," which is a term that seems to have acquired a life of its own the the last few posts, some of the images seem to be flirting with the possibility of real darkness - I'm really only thinking of the Tower here - but holding back from really delivering that ice stiletto to the heart, which is something that successful gothic literature has done quite well.

To me, the Tower looks too safe. Of course, this is a highly subjective opinion.

I really am focusing on mood and atmosphere, to the exclusion of other considerations. How MR approaches tarot creation is neither here nor there, from my perspective. Each deck is its own entity, even tough the same creative team or artist is responsible.

At the risk of repeating myself, I really can't wait to see more of the Dark Sister. I second the request of the King of Pentacles. :D

RubyV

17-03-2007, 21:23

Karen, is Poe's "Ligeia" one of the tales that are being used as inspiration for the cards?

Curious as it's a favorite of mine...

ZenMusic

17-03-2007, 23:37

geministar

18-03-2007, 00:28

OMG!!!! Im so excited, this looks great, another Baba deck coming out!

Now I will just try and settle myself down, go back and start reading through this thread.

Tesseljoan

18-03-2007, 04:03

I am glad this thread has some debate and interesting questions in it.

When the anticipation for the Victorian Romantic was building, I did not like the look of it at all. Yet everybody was saying how wonderful it looked, what a fantastic reading deck it would be, as good, nay better then the Prague... etc.

And, silly me, I convinced myself something was wrong with me.

Anyway, I appreciate opinions that deviate from the buy-vibe, even if they are appreciating of the deck.

Sooooo, to the BG. I like the looks of this one, and will probably purchase it. ;) It might not give a chill, but it does have a moody quality that I like.

baba-prague

18-03-2007, 04:49

Hmm, interesting. I think, again, that this comes down broadly to whether you find a film like "Van Helsing" frightening, or whether Herzog's "Nosferatu" is what touches and disturbs you. Sorry, to repeat this, but the analogy works. I found "Van Helsing" boring and ludicrous - okay, there are shock moments, but it was all so unsubtle that it reminded me of "boy's own" novels from the forties - fighting the monsters and all that. The werewolf was tragic in the wrong way - just tragically misconceived.
Herzog's Nosferatu? A very quiet, still film with no shlock-horror to be seen. But frightening - chills the soul. Utterly Gothic - real horror.

So, our deck does not hold back. If you feel that then the deck may not be for you - and you may also be someone who doesn't respond to Herzog I'd suspect. You won't see a lot of blood and gore and over the top monsters in our imagery - to me they're kitschy and detract from anything that goes deep, they're far too surface to be interesting (okay, a certain kind of kitsch - but not this one - is part of the Gothic, but that's another topic).

Do we want these cards to be like the Vargo? No, if that's what is being asked for then it's best to stick with the Vargo, I know it works really well for some people. I don't want to go down that route at all. I respect the Vargo, but do I find it chilling? Personally not even one little bit :)

I think each of the two decks will tend to attract different users - in one way they are too different to appeal to the same people.

Embla

18-03-2007, 05:13

I think it is interesting to see how this deck, while still in the making, is carrying an energy with it that is bringing out these important questions that we are discussing here about honesty and constructive criticism, authenticity and creativity, the risk of remaining within our comfort-zones etc, which is not a question directed only at artists or creators of tarot decks, but pointed at ourselves also, as human beings, tarot-readers and deck-owners. Because buying a new deck every day/week/month can also be a way of avoiding to break new ground and challenge ourselves by going deeper with ourselves instead of surfing the safe wave of consumption. In my opinion, we, as tarot-readers, need to push the envelope also. It is not only up to the creators.

That this deck is already giving us an opportunity to bring these issues to the table, out of the darkness of the human psyche and into the light, seems very promising to me. After all, that is what it intended to do, right? I certainly welcome that challenge, and the way that these images seem to connect us to those parts of ourselves that need to be verbalized through similar processes that we are creating here, and given room to heal.

Personally, I am very grateful to Magic Realist Press for how the energy that they put in their artistry and their decks works for me. Everything, from the readings I do with their decks to the new images they present seem to come at the right time, and carry deep personal meaning for me. I can only say that I am so grateful for that. And having said that I certainly welcome this challenge to confront my own inner darker sister.

Little Baron

18-03-2007, 05:23

I do not know much about the sources that many of you are talking about, so I won't comment on them. My knowledge of gothic horror is slim, if not non-existant. But once again, always interested to add something new to my mental reading list.

My viewpoint, I suppose, is based on tarot, image and pallette. I appreciate that I am lacking in my ignorance of the gothic and these films that people are speaking about. But I think we said before Karen, that like you, I find the often 'unseen' sometimes scarier than the 'seen'. I couldn't tell you what film it is but many of us must have seen that very old film clip where the shadow is walking up the stairs with the long fingers. That freaks me tens of times more than some 'in your face' bloody horror flick. I get the idea that that is what you mean, yes? And I agree, the antisipation and suspence is far more chilling. And in lots of ways, isn't tarot reading about the possibility, rather than the actual instance? In 'The Tower' [an image I favour on my little list, above mentioned], I guess it is what it holds inside that could be important. As a symbol, many of us do not need to see it exploding to understand the dramatic possibilities that it holds.
One deck I cannot 'get' is the Vampire one. Not the Vargo. Might be by LoS. The amount of blood round their gobs actually turns my stomach, which is a shame, because I quite like some of the other cards. I think I mentioned in another thread, in the film of 'Jaws', wasn't it so much scarier when you couldn't see the shark? And almost laughable in the times when you saw too much of it. All that suspence was killed.

It may not have seemed so, but I am very interested to watch this work-piece develop :)

And Tesslejoan, thank God for you. Yes, it is good to have opinions that deviate from the buy-vibe [I love that term]. It makes threads like this so much more interesting. I have said before, that if I wandered into a thread like this, considering spending my money on a deck, I would prefer an all-rounded set of opinions.

LB

whipsilk

18-03-2007, 05:23

First, LittleBuddha, let me thank you for honestly bringing your opinion to this forum. It's an all-too-often risky undertaking to attempt to give a balanced view of an artist's works, and can often descend into more personal exchanges if the artist responds defensively (as is occurring in another thread in this section), understandable as that defensiveness is. As a creator (in this case, an actor) I understand how difficult it is to gracefully accept criticism of work we've poured such a huge amount of energy, both physical and psychological, into. Fortunately, Karen seems to be one of those rare souls who can respond to such comments without being threatened.

So I personally don't even comment on the vast majority of decks (especially those in the Creation forum) because my comments wouldn't be positive. On the other hand, the rare deck that does have a strong appeal for me (I count Dark Sister as one, Em's stunning Transparent Tarot and the richly imagined Quantum Tarot -- for entirely different reasons -- as two others), I will support with a healthy dose of drool. I suspect many others here operate the same way. I know it's gratifying to the artist, while also recognizing that it's almost completely void of being in any way helpful to the artistic process. I don't mind contributing to that gratification, which can be psychologically so very supportive.

Veering into another aspect of this thread, I have to say that one reason I have such respect and fondness for the work of Magic Realist, is that they have mastered the difficult art of collage. Literally no one else has managed this (well, okay, Kat Black has). There are very popular decks made of collaged images that have appeared on AT's annual ten best lists, which appear clunky and wholly artificial to me, but MR's decks are so skillfully and seamlessly collaged that I don't even recognize them as collaged images when I read with them; the one MR deck I frankly don't like has little to do with the collage, everything to do with the theme.

I have long wanted a dark deck that really speaks to me; to date none have. The Archeon is a beautiful deck, but I have yet to locate its dark voice. The Fantastical is striking in its lines and sinuous art, but also fails to scratch that dark itch. Other "dark" decks I simply find boring and cliche-ridden. The few Dark Sister cards I've seen have literally reached into that night-colored place in my psyche and been welcomed. In literature, only a few of M.R. James's stories (NOT Henry) and Fritz Lieber's darkest works have managed that. In film, well maybe Arrabal and Jodorowsky have come closest. So I genuinely welcome this deck, and know it will have an important place in my life.

Little Baron

18-03-2007, 05:35

I think it is interesting to see how this deck, while still in the making, is carrying an energy with it that is bringing out these important questions that we are discussing here about honesty and constructive criticism, authenticity and creativity, the risk of remaining within our comfort-zones etc, which is not a question directed only at artists or creators of tarot decks, but pointed at ourselves also, as human beings, tarot-readers and deck-owners. Because buying a new deck every day/week/month can also be a way of avoiding to break new ground and challenge ourselves by going deeper with ourselves instead of surfing the safe wave of consumption. In my opinion, we, as tarot-readers, need to push the envelope also. It is not only up to the creators.

This section is so perfectly put and could/should hold a thread, all of it's own.

And Whipsilk, I agree with all you have said. The seamless collaging is extremely admirable. In a sense, the VR almost feels like it was a bridge to this. I am thinking of cards like it's '9 of Swords' that were veering towards this subtle horror we speak about.

And I know that I was looking for a dark deck from day one, back in 1997. I found the Rohrig, and like the Archeon and all the others, none of them satisfied my taste-buds. Despite my questions, from what I can see, this is the closest yet. I appreciate that Karen says this is more an 'occasion' deck, but I think I have always searched for 'the one', which puts just a little more pressure on a deck and carries a little bit more weight in my search. Maybe this is where my often brash comments come from.

But what I like and can see is being avoided, is that this is darkness, without the cheese.

LB

baba-prague

18-03-2007, 05:52

Well, I'll just say that I had the same reaction to the LS Vampires. Too much blood everywhere (and why such messy eating?)

But that's precisely what has made that deck work well for many people - I've seen here that for many people the blatant blood is important. So I think our approach isn't better or worse. But it's quite different.

I even considered putting a small trail of blood from the corner of the Queen of Swords mouth, but then decided not. Too "stated" - it would close down the meaning too much. Is she vampiric? You, the viewer/user has to decide. Is the sword hers? Or did it belong to a man who at some point in the past attacked her with it, meaning to drive it through her heart? If the latter, then we can see clearly what became of him - all his bones nicely arranged in a parody of a religious symbol, in front of which she stands quietly reading...

The Queen herself is beautiful, she draws us in and in a sense "seduces" us - and that's also the point. If she is just repulsive (like the Van Helsing film's bony-bat Brides) then our options are easy. But if we KNOW what she may be, and still find her touching and lovely (shades of Carmilla again) then we're asked to question ourselves. That, I think, is far more powerful than the "quick shock" bit of visceral reaction that so many modern horror visuals go for.

temperlyne

18-03-2007, 06:15

So I personally don't even comment on the vast majority of decks (especially those in the Creation forum) because my comments wouldn't be positive.
As much as I love AT and specially the creation forum, the general lack of good, constructive criticism, for me as an "artist", is frustrating at times. I would welcome any feedback, as negative feedback is usually far more challenging and helpful in the long run. I hope most creators create not to have their ego's drooled on, but to explore and express their views of tarot. So why the reluctancy to express honest opinions? It's nice that At is a save and gentle place, but a bit less suger and a bit more spice would be nicer.

la-luna

18-03-2007, 06:28

I couldn't tell you what film it is but many of us must have seen that very old film clip where the shadow is walking up the stairs with the long fingers. That freaks me tens of times more than some 'in your face' bloody horror flick.
LB

I think you are referring to "Nosferatu, eine Symphonie des Grauens" by F.W. Murnau from 1922 (so it's silent movie). Seen as one of the first cinematic adaptation of Stokers Dracula (alas without the permission of his widow so most of the original films where destroyed - luckily some survived!) - look at your lockal DVD store for it

greenbeans

18-03-2007, 06:41

Back when I did a gothic module at uni. we were taught the difference between 2 types of gothic fiction:

'horror' -lots of gross out blatant scenes, in your face, overstated, creates short-lived disgusted fear, eg The Monk

'terror' -lots of suggestion, subtler, not so much gore, more atmosphere, drawn-out suspenseful fear, eg The Italian

I don't think this dichotomy always works, but its just a useful way at looking of the 2 ways writers created fear. Personally I prefer terror, and always prefer films which seem to draw more from this tradition. And if the Bohemian Gothic preview is anything to go by, it is closer to this idea of the gothic, which I don't think any previous gothic tarot has managed.

MeeWah

18-03-2007, 06:45

9 of Swords reminds me eerily of a decades' old black & white movie called "Carnival of Souls"--a sort of quiet horror movie.

Particularly where the female lead, Mary Henry, is inexplicably drawn to a deserted carnival outside of town & compelled to dance the night with an eerie man who looks more dead than alive.

At the time I first saw it, I had no idea it was a horror movie; thus, memorable as not only the first such movie, but also for its story.

For me, the movie's success as a horror story lies in its apparent ordinaryness & its dream-like sequences. Along with subtle details, they combine to deliver a gradual realization & a dawning horror that simultaneously repels & fascinates.

baba-prague

18-03-2007, 06:58

I think you are referring to "Nosferatu, eine Symphonie des Grauens" by F.W. Murnau from 1922 (so it's silent movie). Seen as one of the first cinematic adaptation of Stokers Dracula (alas without the permission of his widow so most of the original films where destroyed - luckily some survived!) - look at your lockal DVD store for it

Yes, and Herzog did a remake which is both a homage and a beautiful (if flawed, but then Herzog always takes risks) in its own right:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosferatu_the_Vampyre

http://www.imagesjournal.com/issue08/reviews/nosferatu/text.htm

http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GFRG,GFRG:2007-09,GFRG:en&q=herzog%2C%20nosferatu&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

baba-prague

18-03-2007, 07:26

As much as I love AT and specially the creation forum, the general lack of good, constructive criticism, for me as an "artist", is frustrating at times. I would welcome any feedback, as negative feedback is usually far more challenging and helpful in the long run. I hope most creators create not to have their ego's drooled on, but to explore and express their views of tarot. So why the reluctancy to express honest opinions? It's nice that At is a save and gentle place, but a bit less suger and a bit more spice would be nicer.

This is interesting commentary Temperlyne and I agree that sometimes more upfront criticism is needed in Creation (though I've also seen people shot down in flames when they've tried).

However, I think there is a difference between posting in "Creation" and asking for feedback. and having a deck posted here in "Decks". I suppose that in Creation I expect to see more "card-by-card" critique. Here that isn't always appropriate. Well, the thread gets very long and a bit derailed apart from anything - but beyond that the focus on individual cards can detract from a view of the deck as a whole at times.

That doesn't mean that I think comments should be all positive - or all negative. Both can be very useful - to everyone, not just the deck designer/s. But it does make me a bit cautious of posting individual cards here (I think larger batches may be different) as I don't want to imply that we're asking for the kind of micro-commentary that happens more on Creation.

The experience of showing the Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot card by card as they were done taught me that there is a fine line between welcoming input and ending up feeling like you're on the end of a "design committee". Okay, I'm smiling as I say that, but we really aren't wanting simply to take the route that gets the most votes. At times on BBCats we had people saying things like "Please add a mouse in this cat's paw" - and it just wasn't in fact that helpful, while at the same time it felt embarrassing to blatantly ignore such detailed requests. I found that really exhausting at times, and the last thing you need when designing a deck is to be exhausted!

By the time we're making final (or 90% final) cards, we have the entire deck in mind (and usually a lot of it in sketch form) and we know how one element is intended to balance out another. That can awkwardly make it appear that we're unresponsive to suggestions. However, I will say that on the few occasions we've taken up a strong suggestion from the forums against our better judgement (because of our overview of the entire deck direction) it's usually been a mistake. In the end we have to follow our own beliefs and judgement, while remaining open to hearing comments. From time to time we may of course ask for input on some particular issue we're struggling with - and when that happens AT people can be enormously knowledgeable and helpful.

I hope I've expressed that well and it doesn't seem arrogant. It's just supposed to be an honest explanation of why I see the purpose of "Creation" and "Decks" on AT as being different. I suppose that the very involved discussions and disagreements about our cards all happen here between me and Alex, and many, many options will have already been battled over before we ever show cards here. If it wasn't like that I think the danger would be bland, confused decks. Or decks that feel like "Pick and Mix" - it always worries me when a deck designer is so unsure of their vision that they repeatedly ask "Should I use this image, or this, or this?" I understand why that happens, but I'm not sure that a strong deck is likely to emerge from such a process. I see such questions as signs that the deck creator would perhaps be better locking themselves away from all input for a while (except perhaps for some known and trusted critic) and working out clearly and confidently their own design, purpose and style for their deck rather than asking for blow-by-blow comments on each and every individual card.

Does any of that make sense?

Little Baron

18-03-2007, 07:44

I appreciate your honesty Karen. And I understand what you mean.

I have often thought that when I have read threads by other artists here, where people have said 'add this' or 'it would be my perfect deck if you did that'. I don't have the ideas, let alone the interest in shaping someone elses work in that fashion. For me, I am just commenting on the product as it evolves as a whole. Unfortunately, it probably is a little card specific at the moment, since we have seen so few. In this thread, I have been commenting on impression and mood, I hope, alone.

I also see what you mean about 'decks' and 'creation'. I have created some bits and bobs here in my time. Some not very sophisticated. And some a little better than the not very sophisticated. Of course, it is nice when someone says they like something. And it can be wounding when they say they don't. But for me to put it out there, I have to appreciate that others are not going to see things from my viewpoint. An annonymous person commented on my Sun card, saying he would make a better Devil. Ok, comment appreciated. But as my deck, I suppose I see him in the way that I do and since it was only being created for 'me' that is fair enough.
But I also like a meaty thread that doesn't just blob along with 'oooohs' and 'ah's'. It has become so bloody predictable on here of late. The stuff about Victorian horror, films and the difference between horror and terror has been very interesting, and when I buy the deck, I might do a little side-line research.

But less about me. I am looking forward to seeing some of the guys in this deck. I might be the only one that is actually glad that this deck won't be titled the 'Dark Sister'. It gives it a very feminine [almost extremely strong femenine] influence that I felt a touch excluded from. I know that is silly and that it wasn't intentional to make it a deck for women on the main, but that was how it felt to me.

LB

EDITED to remove a comment that was insensitive to another. Apologies to that person.

Little Baron

18-03-2007, 07:53

What you say makes a lot of sense, Karen. Total sense.

I think that a thread like this, for you two, could be quite stifling, in terms of the creative process; and confusing. If I was you, I think that I wouldn't bother posting any more cards and just get on with it. Personally, I think it is far nicer to see the thing as 'one' at the end. There is always going to be posts that are going to concentrate on one little detail. And that is quite different than viewing a finished product in it's entirity. And posting them here and going through all of this could be extremely exhausting for you, mentally. I remember in Kats thread, how people were discussing which head they liked better on the shoulders of one of the characters. Aside from using your own better judgement, that kind of jury doesn't really aid your own creation and shouldn't affect it. I would have thought it hinders it.

Maybe you should retire to the dungeon, and come back and see us in Autumn when you have created your monster ;)

LB

HearthCricket

18-03-2007, 09:03

Do we want these cards to be like the Vargo? No, if that's what is being asked for then it's best to stick with the Vargo, I know it works really well for some people. I don't want to go down that route at all. I respect the Vargo, but do I find it chilling? Personally not even one little bit :)

I think each of the two decks will tend to attract different users - in one way they are too different to appeal to the same people.

I suppose I am one of the few that will like both. The Gothic Vargo is not chilling to me, either. It is almost ethereal in many places and other cards almost look out of place. Many of the cards still remind me of the graveyard scene in the latest move version of Phantom of the Opera. It isn't a bad thing-I use this deck-but it doesn't quite capture the eerie, creepy, spine chilling feeling I would like to have. It doesn't allow for nightmares or jumping at things that go bump in the night! I want a deck that is beautiful, image wise, but also makes me uncomfortable! So far your pictures are doing just that.

Apocalipstick

18-03-2007, 12:40

9 of Swords reminds me eerily of a decades' old black & white movie called "Carnival of Souls"--a sort of quiet horror movie.
Spot on, MeeWah!

I had intense dreams for nights after watching that. Granted, I was about seven or eight when I first saw it, but it's stayed with me since.

As soon as I found a copy, I bought it.

The 9 of Swords has that feel.

Lillie

18-03-2007, 13:18

Herzog's Nosferatu? A very quiet, still film with no shlock-horror to be seen. But frightening - chills the soul. Utterly Gothic - real horror.

Totally beautiful film.

baba-prague

18-03-2007, 13:20

Totally beautiful film.

Hi Lillie. Yes, if we could get even a hint of that I'm be content. That film amazes me every single time I watch it.

Myrrha

18-03-2007, 14:13

Well, I'll just say that I had the same reaction to the LS Vampires. Too much blood everywhere (and why such messy eating?)

But that's precisely what has made that deck work well for many people - I've seen here that for many people the blatant blood is important. So I think our approach isn't better or worse. But it's quite different.

I even considered putting a small trail of blood from the corner of the Queen of Swords mouth, but then decided not. Too "stated" - it would close down the meaning too much. Is she vampiric? You, the viewer/user has to decide.

There are other ways to be vampiric than by drinking blood. I think you made a good decision.

I admire the High Priestess card very much. Seeing the source image for this card it just amazed me how nuanced your work with facial expressions is.

The Tower card actually did inspire a sense of forboding in me and also that sense of, you know, "home" that dark imagery can bring up for those who are drawn to it.

I didn't like the "danse macabre" scene very much though. In fact my first reaction was laughter. Maybe if I could see it larger it would have more impact.

I can't *wait* to see more cards! I suppose the Moon card will be very very special. I'm really hoping this turns out to be a deck I can use and love. Anyway it is sure to be lovely.

--Myrrha

Apocalipstick

18-03-2007, 14:54

It looks like the most mixed reactions so far have been to the 9 of Swords and the Tower.

Could it be because darkness is so personal, we're all sure exactly what it is? ;)

MeeWah

18-03-2007, 16:04

baba-prague: Whilst feedback on a developing deck can be helpful in providing insights, best to conserve the focus & not corrupt the artistic vision &/or even hinder the creative process.

Based on those decks created thus far, the artistic vision uniquely realized in each deck, & each with its distinctive personality.

The Bohemian Gothic Tarot promises more of those same qualities that contributes to the success of all the previous decks. If not 'more'. More in the sense that in my view, more skill required to convey the horrific by the quiet & subtle means rather than by the in-your-face horrific--blood & gore (hence, the reference to the film, "Carnival of Souls"). Can easily see that this deck promises just those subtleties which can also contribute to a deck's versatility & the memorable experiences with it.

Sar

18-03-2007, 16:25

Finally a deck from Baba Studio that seem to speak to me! This is great guys! Spasiba Horrosjo!

Scion

18-03-2007, 16:28

rereading Gothic by Botting ?
Another great read on Gothic is Art of Darkness ::Anne Williams with 3premises: that Gothic is "poetic," not novelistic, in nature; that there are two parallel Gothic traditions, Male and Female; and that the Gothic and the Romantic represent a single literary tradition. Gothic lit and film is one of my obsessions and I'd like to second the recommendation for Williams Art of Darkness, Karen... It's pretty spectacular! As is the Botting for a quick overview.

I'm over the moon about this deck, obviously! And just to stoke the creative coals, I'll just add a couple more book suggestions that I've found especially inspiring when working on Gothic projects of my own. Any of these will wind up oft-read and spark thoughts in the birthing of the monstre }):
The Contested Castle: Gothic Novels and the Subversion of Domestic Ideology by Kate Ellis (which is sort of a cornerstone classic of modern Gothic scholarship)
The Biology of Horror by Jack Morgan
In the Circles of Fear and Desire by William Patrick Day
Mazes of the Serpent: An Anatomy of Horror Narrative by Roger Salomon
The Coherence of Gothic Conventions by Eve Sedgwick

If you want more book recs, just say. :) You know how much I love recommending books. And I;'m such a completist that if it's on Gothic, odds are I own it. No lie. :D I'm a fierce Herzog fan (Anyone ever seen My Best Fiend? Vicious!) and can't wait to see where you end up with these ideas.

And thank you to Greenbeans for pointing out the distinction between Horror and Terror, they are two completely different modes that often work in tandem. But for some reason, studio execs have a harder time understanding Terror as richer or more compelling. And, uhhh, I'm speaking from experience there. ;) Hence the botched wreck that was Van Helsing, which in fact based on studio marketing and structure was technically an action film with horror elements. 'Nuff said!

Let me also second the vote against card-by-card art by committee. Invariably frustrating and valueless. After all, a camel is a horse designed by committee. Committees can barely design toilets. This is a thread in Decks and not Creation, which does indicate a difference in approach. Little Buddha offered some real, fair questions and got some extraordinarily articulate answers from several sides. Notice that he made no request for "mouse in paw" edits, but did more of a thematic probing. That seems a perfectly concrete question about a "Decks" thread and the kind of spur that can be useful. And frankly if it isn't, Karen and Alex will toss it in the bin: As they should.

Karen, you've got a big juicy ghoulash brewing here and I for one, napkin under my chin, am lining up with a stone bowl and an iron spoon for my portion...

Scion

Lillie

18-03-2007, 16:54

Hi Lillie. Yes, if we could get even a hint of that I'm be content. That film amazes me every single time I watch it.

From the little I have seen of the deck, you are getting more of a hint.
Beautifully stylish.

I'm glad you didn't go the run of blood from the lips.

That's more Christopher Lee than Klaus Kinski! :D

ZenMusic

18-03-2007, 17:24

>LS Vampire
no, I didn't care for this at all...

>Vargo..
no, i wouldn't want another similar deck , it is beautiful and unique , don't copy it, but it is (for me) a perfect balance of dark and beauty..but i'd would have make it deeper , more symbolics/hermetic/myth or whatever throughout, andsome of the minors are not well represented for their meanings...

much of the value of anything Gothic is the depth of feelings, unknown, mystery, awe /// especially seduction, the sacrifice for love

of course it's all deeply symbolic.. the descent of the "pure" spirit into the "impure" world .. is like giving up eternal life, for a lifetime of experiences.. for love... is one way to view it

Emily

19-03-2007, 04:17

I go away for 3 days and find a whole new thread of 16 pages long LOL - I've just fallen in love with the Victorian Romantic but the Bohemian Gothic has really got my interest. I love anything Gothic, films, books and some of my other Gothic tarot decks. But I'm really waiting to see the rest of these cards. :)

baba-prague

19-03-2007, 04:59

Well, sadly we don't have any other cards that are really ready to show yet. Mostly I think we'll show them in batches rather than one by one (for the reasons I mentioned above). So - I think the next group of cards may be a while. We're pretty much focused on them, but we do also have to devote time to trying to get the printer to complete the Bohemian Cats second edition - sigh.

Embla

19-03-2007, 06:43

Karen, just to let you know that i think your post about the difference of discussing a deck in Creation and here in Tarot Decks makes total sense. I respect your artistic integrity completely and encourage you to keep as much of the artistic process to yourself, as you feel necessary. We certainly should not play the part of a self-proclaimed design committee just because you are generous enough to share different stages of your creations, unless you specifically ask our opinion. I understand how that could be potentially frustrating at times!

6 Haunted Days

19-03-2007, 08:12

Gothic lit and film is one of my obsessions and I'd like to second the recommendation for Williams Art of Darkness, Karen... It's pretty spectacular! As is the Botting for a quick overview.

I'm over the moon about this deck, obviously! And just to stoke the creative coals, I'll just add a couple more book suggestions that I've found especially inspiring when working on Gothic projects of my own. Any of these will wind up oft-read and spark thoughts in the birthing of the monstre }):
The Contested Castle: Gothic Novels and the Subversion of Domestic Ideology by Kate Ellis (which is sort of a cornerstone classic of modern Gothic scholarship)
The Biology of Horror by Jack Morgan
In the Circles of Fear and Desire by William Patrick Day
Mazes of the Serpent: An Anatomy of Horror Narrative by Roger Salomon
The Coherence of Gothic Conventions by Eve Sedgwick

If you want more book recs, just say. :) You know how much I love recommending books. And I;'m such a completist that if it's on Gothic, odds are I own it. No lie. :D I'm a fierce Herzog fan (Anyone ever seen My Best Fiend? Vicious!) and can't wait to see where you end up with these ideas.

And thank you to Greenbeans for pointing out the distinction between Horror and Terror, they are two completely different modes that often work in tandem. But for some reason, studio execs have a harder time understanding Terror as richer or more compelling. And, uhhh, I'm speaking from experience there. ;) Hence the botched wreck that was Van Helsing, which in fact based on studio marketing and structure was technically an action film with horror elements. 'Nuff said!

Let me also second the vote against card-by-card art by committee. Invariably frustrating and valueless. After all, a camel is a horse designed by committee. Committees can barely design toilets. This is a thread in Decks and not Creation, which does indicate a difference in approach. Little Buddha offered some real, fair questions and got some extraordinarily articulate answers from several sides. Notice that he made no request for "mouse in paw" edits, but did more of a thematic probing. That seems a perfectly concrete question about a "Decks" thread and the kind of spur that can be useful. And frankly if it isn't, Karen and Alex will toss it in the bin: As they should.

Karen, you've got a big juicy ghoulash brewing here and I for one, napkin under my chin, am lining up with a stone bowl and an iron spoon for my portion...

Scion

All the books you recommened are great! I have them all and then some lol. In these posts I see a lot of mixing and mashing together of 2 seperate literature genres.....mainly gothic and victorian (and edwardian) ghost stories. They are 2 quite seperate genres, but that is only my study and obsession talking. The Gothic time frame for the more sublime and pure literature was from 1760's to 1820. Those dates are the ones most scholars agree on.But it can be a gray area with the whole thing. Heck even some people confuse Romanticism with Gothic and say it derived from it when romanticism came AFTER the Gothic. Eh, I can see me going too deeply in boring dry scholar stuff here. And I know that the deck is going to incorporate the WHOLE kit and caboodle which is just fine with me, I love THEM all! Anyhow, those books you mentioned would be a great aid in helping anyone who was curious about it all. LOTS of books out there.

But I also I wanted to point people in the direction to read some actual gothic novels....some of those more intellectual books can be slower and less exciting reads. But if one wants to get immersed in the beauty and sublime terror of the Gothic world then there are no 2 better places to go for reprinted novels of that time period you won't find anywhere else....
http://www.valancourtbooks.com/ (they also have a glorious selection of other later books in the genre such as Marsh and oop Stoker novels)
http://www.zittaw.com/

baba-prague

19-03-2007, 09:00

rosyelf

19-03-2007, 11:55

As well as READING with this deck (special, non-every day readings, probably) I think I'm going to enjoy it very much as a creativity tool. I am a poet and particularly keen in my poetry in exploring the irrational, the deep and scary stuff that lies behind appearances. There is no gore in my poems but there is quite a lot of menace ;) So the Bohemian Gothic cards will (if the first scans are anything to go by) feed this passion perfectly.

6 Haunted Days

19-03-2007, 12:41

It depends a lot on who you read and how they choose to define Gothic. For instance, most scholars accept Dracula as an archetypal example of the genre - and it's much later, 1897. Wikipedia is actually not bad in outlining the basics of the difference between early Gothic (literature, not architecture of course) and Victorian Gothic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_fiction

But, as you say, some of this is quite dry stuff to debate and essentially we want to produce a deck built strongly around Victorian Gothic, although not in a strictly historical sense (other eras will be there to some extent). I suppose I see it as a deck that both uses the standard elements (yes, there is a sense of "cliche" because the recurrent elements of Gothic have become cliches now - but cliches that we can all recognise and relate to) and plays with them - sometimes ironically, sometimes shockingly.

It's intended first and foremost as a deck to use. Personally I find most existing dark decks fairly unusable (could be me) and I really want something that I can actually use more than once or twice - albeit not with any and every querent.

Anyway, enough talk, I should work on the cards as in the end they will speak best for themselves.

Oh yes, of course. I meant people lumping in authors from different periods when the styles and ambience of the books are so vastly different. I was referring to early gothic lit, not victorian gothic, which I love of course as well. I suppose that kind of literary discussion would hold no interest to most of the people here. It's obvious you're going for the "feel" of the whole time sweep of gothic up until the early 20th cent. which is THE deck I have been waiting for, well since I was probably 10 lol. So I think those that are drawn towards this type of gothic writing and ambience as opposed to the later more horror, gore type (which has many a deck to it's credit) will be able to use this deck with ease...they already identify closely with the atmosphere and archetypes.

I can't wait for the next batch of cards!! So far 9 of Swords wins hands down, but we've seen only a couple. Anticipation is the best :royal:

EarthAngel2911

20-03-2007, 11:44

Karen, I just wanted to say how fascinating I think these few cards are! I don't have a Gothic deck right now that I connect with, so I'll definitely preorder this deck when it becomes available! The images are haunting and speak volumes.

I love the source image you posted from the Queen of Swords. I compared the card to its source over and over trying to figure out what looked different. Alex did a wonderful job redrawing her, they look almost identical. But the difference I finally noticed was that the source image is looking directly at the camera, right through you. It's chilling, and seems sad at the same time.

I'm looking forward to seeing more! And I can be patient.... even though patience is not my thing. ;) But I know that soon I'll have my Golden kitties on my front door step, and that will keep me busy for a while. But they'll have to share some time with my Victorian Romantic, which I have no intention of putting down anytime soon! :D

Blessings,
Karen

shadowdancer

20-03-2007, 12:09

baba-prague

20-03-2007, 12:48

Karen, I am wondering if you and Alex ever get the chance to do the basics such as sleeping - you seem so incredibly busy.

I will not comment on this deck, as I think I have no right to do so but just to say good luck with this project - I think it is likely to be another exciting addition to the catalogue you have produced to date.

Not wanting to be pushy (and I promise I am not!!) but just wondered how the land lies with the BBC? I think last we heard you had a bit of a hard time with the printers letting you down a little

Well, we do sleep, but not a whole lot at times!
Please do comment on the deck - all I was really trying to say is that I don't want people to be offended if we seem not to be incorporating suggestions - the deck is in many ways fairly far advanced now in terms of our overview. But we do want to hear reactions - of course :)

Baroque Bohemian Cats'? Well, we got a call from the printer about two hours ago and they will begin printing again at 7.30 tomorrow morning. We have also found alternative people to cut the cards and to pack them so all systems go again we hope. The last month of "we're going to print, no we're not" has been quite hard on the nerves at times, I've been glad to have the new deck to take my mind off it.

Edited to add, I think I'd better say this on the BBCats thread too, though I am almost afraid of tempting fate!

HearthCricket

20-03-2007, 13:00

Thank you for the book lists! I will definitely bone up (hehehehe) on my gothic reading this summer and early fall so that I am ready for the deck. I think just having a nice variety of visuals in my head from books and movies will only enhance my reading experience with the BG, not to mention how fun it will be! I am hoping to "Haunt" my Victorian Flower Oracle at Sleepy Hollow cemetery, this summer. ;) But the BG looks like it deserves a proper tour of Salem Mass and a trip through the House of the Seven Gables! :D

rosyelf

20-03-2007, 13:50

My current favourite is the High Priestess-I love that shade of blue and her exquisite and, yes, priestly robes. And how OBVIOUS this scene would have been if she had had a trickle of blood hovering near her pale lips. As it is, she is pure enigma-is she a Priestess OF the Dark, serving the Dark Powers, or is she a bastion AGAINST the Dark, or. . .? Therein lies the power of such a deck-it is so rich in suggestion

baba-prague

20-03-2007, 14:09

Therein lies the power of such a deck-it is so rich in suggestion

I hope we can maintain some of that ambiguity because it's very much part of some of the best Gothic stories I know. I'm thinking in particular of The Turn of the Screw (which I myself would class as Gothic) in which one never quite knows if the spirits are real or if the governess is insane and imagining things. Ambiguity of that sort forces the reader (or in the case of the deck, the user) to think - and it's really unsettling.

I will also remark that Gothic ambiguity has very much entered our lives right now (at exactly the time we began on this deck - interesting). BUt I'd better say no more on that perhaps. One day I'll tell more of the story of our shadow consultant ;)

HearthCricket

20-03-2007, 14:29

I hope we can maintain some of that ambiguity because it's very much part of some of the best Gothic stories I know. I'm thinking in particular of The Turn of the Screw (which I myself would class as Gothic) in which one never quite knows if the spirits are real or if the governess is insane and imagining things. Ambiguity of that sort forces the reader (or in the case of the deck, the user) to think - and it's really unsettling.

I have the PBS version of this movie, and they did a very accurate job on it. The introducer to it (can't think of that famous man, at the moment) said James learned the best trick of a good ghost story. Show, don't tell. And yes, we certainly are left up in the air about what really happened in The Turn of the Screw.

Lois the Witch, by Elizabeth Gaskell, has a rather gothic turn to it and is one of my favourite short stories by her. You would enjoy it, I think. She really captured the essence of New England, at that time period.

Scion

20-03-2007, 14:40

I hope we can maintain some of that ambiguity because it's very much part of some of the best Gothic stories I know. I'm thinking in particular of The Turn of the Screw (which I myself would class as Gothic) in which one never quite knows if the spirits are real or if the governess is insane and imagining things. Ambiguity of that sort forces the reader (or in the case of the deck, the user) to think - and it's really unsettling. Turn of the Screw is unquestionably Gothic! One of the most perfect Gothics ever written!! The unreliable narrator, ambiguous evidence, and fractured narrative are hallmarks of all great, gripping Gothics. :thumbsup: In the best Gothic stories, the reader is sucked in, in fact HAS to get involved with the hyptnotic detail, because there's no definitive way to read anything as true or false... the entire world is unstable and precarious. The Landscape of the Unconscious in bold strokes.

I'm so glad to hear you say that, Karen, and to hear Henry James referenced specifically as an inspiration... This deck is going to be crazy powerful.

Yay!

Scion

temperlyne

20-03-2007, 14:47

I hope we can maintain some of that ambiguity... Ambiguity of that sort forces the reader (or in the case of the deck, the user) to think - and it's really unsettling.

Ambiguity, in my opinion, should be part of every tarot deck, not just gothic ones, for a deck to be really good. It's good to see that you have an eye for such things!

baba-prague

20-03-2007, 15:08

Ambiguity, in my opinion, should be part of every tarot deck, not just gothic ones, for a deck to be really good. It's good to see that you have an eye for such things!

Yes, and broadening things out a bit, I think one of the huge pleasures (and learning experiences) of designing a deck is to see what people do with it - they find meanings that were not consciously put in by us, and yet those meanings aren't wrong - they are often, in fact, stunningly insightful. I do believe that the best works of art (if one can claim that for a tarot deck) allow the user to make it their own, Personally I don't like it when things are too spelled out for me.

Alex and I have discussed a lot recently the fact that by using older art we take pieces that often already have layers of meaning built in (I think one could say the same for the images of Prague we've used and of course, in a different sense, for fairytales). There is a cultural richness that's already there, and that can be drawn on -and drawn out.

We talked about many ways of doing this deck, and in the end we wanted to use real Victorian images (one difference with VR is of course, that in this deck we are using photographs as well as artwork) because there is something about the style and attitude - the content, the composition, the clothing and the expressions - that just can't be captured by a modern artist. As Alex keeps saying to me, people had different faces. So this will also, I think, challenge a reader - there is an unfamiliarity and "difference" that should disturb - and in the end this is a deck that's designed to unsettle, disturb and stir up buried images.

However, the reason I responded with a bit of despair when asked about whether this deck is easy for us, is that in fact it's very hard. I have mixed feelings about working with images that are so dark, and Alex has some ethical issues with this that we needed to talk through. In the end, I hope the deck will be a dark deck that makes us re-evaluate the light - NOT a dark deck that purposelessly draws us further into the dark.

Oh dear - or is that all far too serious? In a way I simply love the campy side of the Gothic too.

faunabay

20-03-2007, 15:29

We talked about many ways of doing this deck, and in the end we wanted to use real Victorian images (one difference with VR is of course, that in this deck we are using photographs as well as artwork) because there is something about the style and attitude - the content, the composition, the clothing and the expressions - that just can't be captured by a modern artist. As Alex keeps saying to me, people had different faces. So this will also, I think, challenge a reader - there is an unfamiliarity and "difference" that should disturb - and in the end this is a deck that's designed to unsettle, disturb and stir up buried images.

This is one reason I love the VR so much, the art has a much deeper quality to it than modern art, especially that of other tarot decks. I took it to be that this art may have taken, in some cases, a year or more to finish - where the art for modern day tarot will only take a week or month. There is so much more detail to the faces, expressions, etc. I see Alex's point. The faces just look different somehow. This is also one of the reasons I'm excited about the dark sister. I believe it will have the same differences in the artwork I enjoy soooo much.

However, the reason I responded with a bit of despair when asked about whether this deck is easy for us, is that in fact it's very hard. I have mixed feelings about working with images that are so dark, and Alex has some ethical issues with this that we needed to talk through. In the end, I hope the deck will be a dark deck that makes us re-evaluate the light - NOT a dark deck that purposelessly draws us further into the dark.

Oh dear - or is that all far too serious? In a way I simply love the campy side of the Gothic too.

You explained this perfectly. I personally would not like a deck to draw me more to the dark, but allow me to move further into the light. I hadn't really examined it closely but I think this is exactly the reason I don't have any dark decks. Or if I get one I don't keep it too long. They seem to draw me deeper into the "dark". I'm extremely glad you two are taking this into account. It makes me even more want the dark sister!!

truelighth

20-03-2007, 16:06

I have yet added another deck to my wishlist :D. What a wonderful deck and how could I have missed the news on this? Looking forward to august already :D :D :D

Pagan X

21-03-2007, 00:20

Tarot is itself a collage.

I'm happy. Today I came up with a Gothic plot idea for a short story that pleases me very much.

fall_guy

21-03-2007, 03:13

I like the Tower card and your thinking behind the transformed gargoyle, but I'd have quite liked a streak of lightning in there too. To me it's an essential factor in the Tower card, and given the creepy theme to the deck, storm clouds and lightning would fit in perfectly.

I'd be interested to see how you do the 'happier' cards in a Gothic style (e.g the Sun, 4 of Wands, 9 of Cups etc).
Can Gothic be happy? :D

6 Haunted Days

21-03-2007, 07:21

However, the reason I responded with a bit of despair when asked about whether this deck is easy for us, is that in fact it's very hard. I have mixed feelings about working with images that are so dark, and Alex has some ethical issues with this that we needed to talk through. In the end, I hope the deck will be a dark deck that makes us re-evaluate the light - NOT a dark deck that purposelessly draws us further into the dark.

Oh dear - or is that all far too serious? In a way I simply love the campy side of the Gothic too.

This in itself could inspire some great and very insightful conversations about the roles light and dark play out in our lives. We need to have both, and IMO darkness or the dark (shadow) is too often shunned, feared and left to fester. As a society we tend to focus so heavily on positive, on being "in the light" etc on go go going, that we completely ignore the treasures, beauty and life transforming power of the dark in all it's aspects. As in also in this society in this time when someone is depressed the thing is "get rid of it as fast as possible by any means neccassry!" Instead of seeing what it is exactly why our soul is on turmoil and what it can teach us and make us grow. We need a balance basically, and it's sorely lacking in society.

Then again everyone's defintion of what dark or darkness is can be different. And that can lead to different conclusions. Say if someone meant "evil" or whatnot by dark.

baba-prague

21-03-2007, 07:42

I like the Tower card and your thinking behind the transformed gargoyle, but I'd have quite liked a streak of lightning in there too. To me it's an essential factor in the Tower card, and given the creepy theme to the deck, storm clouds and lightning would fit in perfectly.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree, but as we couldn't decide on some aspects of this card we've left it aside for now. Often we do considerable changing as we go along, as the patterns between cards become more apparent. There's also always a good deal of last minute adjustment of some detail and colouring.

HearthCricket

21-03-2007, 07:46

Yes, I'm inclined to agree, but as we couldn't decide on some aspects of this card we've left it aside for now. Often we do considerable changing as we go along, as the patterns between cards become more apparent. There's also always a good deal of last minute adjustment of some detail and colouring.

Do you find that this is often part of the process of making a deck, out of curiosity? That some cards click really fast and others need more pondering and often have to be put aside and looked at later when you might have some fresh ideas for it, or just put it on the back-burner and continue with the rest of the deck, so you don't get rather frustrated trying to figure out that particular card?

baba-prague

21-03-2007, 07:54

Do you find that this is often part of the process of making a deck, out of curiosity? That some cards click really fast and others need more pondering and often have to be put aside and looked at later when you might have some fresh ideas for it, or just put it on the back-burner and continue with the rest of the deck, so you don't get rather frustrated trying to figure out that particular card?

For me, very much so. I will often set a card aside for quite some time rather than go on and on struggling with it. Alex is absolutely the opposite. So we balance each other out quite well - sometimes I am too inclined to "wait and see" while he is too inclined to carry on when it's clear the answer isn't coming. So between us we have a fairly sensible method of designing!

HearthCricket

21-03-2007, 09:24

For me, very much so. I will often set a card aside for quite some time rather than go on and on struggling with it. Alex is absolutely the opposite. So we balance each other out quite well - sometimes I am too inclined to "wait and see" while he is too inclined to carry on when it's clear the answer isn't coming. So between us we have a fairly sensible method of designing!

I think this is neat! When I first bought tarot cards I never even paid attention to the artist and most decks came with only the LWB. It wasn't until recently when I started buying more decks that I realized often two people are creating a deck, with often a third writing a book. I could not figure out how a deck could come out balanced with two different artists working on it, but now it makes so much more sense. In fact, in many ways it can be better because it sounds like you two keep a check on each other and balance the deck out from both point of views being discussed over a particular card. Thanks for sharing your various bits and pieces on deck making, be it deciding or artwork for the card to paper quality! It is like being a fly on the wall! (or should I say a Cricket on the Hearth?? :)

inanna_tarot

21-03-2007, 14:29

i havent read all the replies on this thread, but I just had to say that I am loving the 'Dark Sister' even though the VR never really appealed to me.
Baba - I think you are definatly getting the right balance of gothic and dark vs blood gore and just shock value. The images seem to have a very subtle gracious air about them, being very introspective and gothic without selling out.

Fabulous deck, and where better for a deck like it to come from than Prague! Home of the occult, gothic and things that go bump in the night!

Well done and I look forward to seeing the silver edition in my hands lol.

Sezo
x

souljourney

22-03-2007, 17:57

Super excited about this deck!!!
On my short list for decks to buy this year.

Lutenist

24-03-2007, 18:59

Looks like a very interesting project! The cards so far seem to be dark and mysterious, not so much "evil", which I really appreciate. There's some horror I really like, but I'm not very fond of violence, so it's also nice to hear you are not going for the blood and gore.

I think the nine of swords doesn't look very frightening, but that's ok with me. She's clearly mesmerized, and the skeletons are having some fun at her expense. As if they represented her neuroses, demons or whatever.

The Queen of Swords seems ageless enough to be a vampire, but it's nice we aren't made to think she neccessarily is one. She looks like a cool, serious kind of person, possibly vengeful sometimes, and certainly quite intelligent.

I'm not so sure about the tower.. it's as if something's missing but I cannot really pinpoint what. I don't think simply adding flashes or something similarly superficial would help. It's all about the idea of "The Tower" not mere appearance, right? It's nightmarish and all.. Oh well, maybe I'll just get used to it.

The High Priestess is pointing at her head. It's as if she answered to our question with simply this one gesture, "Think."

I hope I will find Dark Sister a good reading deck once you get to print it, because I really like the art so far.

Robin Fariel

24-03-2007, 21:57

This looks intriguing and right up my alley. And hurrah for no borders.

My reaction to the 9 of Swords was laughter as well. It doesn't look scary or distrubing at all- YET.

As both an artist and someone who studied art criticism, i would say the problem with the 9 Sw, as it stands now, has nothing to do with the fact we are looking at a small version. I can see her expression just fine.

The issue is the skeleton in the foreground.

It takes up WAY too much space and attention especially since the card is about the distress experienced by the woman. Why waste so much space with such a prominent distraction?

If you took away the skeleton in the foreground and brought UP the woman... you'd have a stronger image. And one that addresses the actual meaning of the card itself.

If you go back to the posted image and crop out that foreground skeleton, you will see how much more powerful the woman becomes and also how much of the card is devoted to that foreground skeleton.

However, not only is the foreground skeleton superfluous, he detracts from the emotive content. It is what makes the image veer into laugh-inducing. The skeleton in question looks like he's from a Ghostbusters scene and is inviting us into the picture saying "come on, let's boogie".

Maybe if he was playing a violin and looking at the woman?

But still, in my opinion, the image should be focused utterly on the woman who is caught up in compelling strains of imaginary, othewordly music.

If I could ask the artist a questions or two:

What is the actual purpose of the skeleton in the foreground? Is he essential to the card's meaning? As he appears now, does his presence contribute fully to the image's Composition? Why is the image a complete longshot? If the woman's expression is important, why not make it more prominent within the composition?

Love the cards shown so far and the concept.

Debra

25-03-2007, 00:00

Hi, Karen. I'm going to echo what Robin just said about the foreground skeleton, who seems to be saying "come party with us!"

I also applaud PaganX's long-ago posting about the many different ways that MR "pushes the envelop" in tarot. In that light, I wonder about the typeface on the cards. Did you experiment a lot with typfaces?

This one is lovely,clear and readable but somehow distracts me, which makes me think it's not quite in line with the feel of the cards. Perhaps a less gracious line, something more connected to the dark side, something less sure of itself? Just a thought.

baba-prague

25-03-2007, 04:54

Thanks for the comments - very interesting.

I hope it's not going to sound like we're not interested (we are, very) but we are actually not going to respond in detail to card-by-card critiques, although we love hearing them and appreciate them. As I explained earlier (please see my post somewhere a couple of pages up), the deck is in many ways set on its own course now and we know that some people will love some cards and dislike others - we're not aiming to please everyone. I think if we begin to discuss the composition of each image at this point we'll never finish - and the discussion may just go round in circles, as I doubt we can agree with all the comments here (we have nearly 20 years of art and design training between us - but from very different cultures - so the debate that goes on just internally is pretty intense at times!)

The book will also explain further the thinking behind the cards - all I'd say now about the Nine of Swords is that it's a nightmare image designed to recall the Danse Macabre. If you've seen medieval Danse Macabres, black humour is very much a part of most depictions - there is a lot of very wicked humour mixed with darkness in much older art.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danse_Macabre

We do hope to show a further batch of cards in a while - but it is likely to be weeks not days.

baba-prague

25-03-2007, 05:03

ps Alex says to mention that he is butt-headed when it comes to matters of composition!

I can indeed confirm this.

Aha - and that is probably the nearest thing to Mr Ukolov's participation in AT that we've had so far ;)

Sulis

25-03-2007, 07:40

I love the atmosphere that you've got going on in the cards I've seen so far and I completely understand why you're not getting into a card by card critique here but I have to admit to not liking that 9 of Swords at all.

I've been thinking about this a lot. I didn't like it when you first posted it but couldn't put my finger on why and after a bit of thought I think I know.
This card just doesn't look like a painting.
It doesn't look like Victorian art. I think it has a CGI look to it and that's what I don't like about it. The skeleton looks computer generated, as if it's just been added digitally.

OK I'll shut up now :)

jackdaw*

25-03-2007, 07:45

I love the idea behind the Nine of Swords. I'm not sure about the skeleton in the foreground. But the danse macabre is such a great theme.

Sulis

25-03-2007, 07:53

I love the idea behind the Nine of Swords. I'm not sure about the skeleton in the foreground. But the danse macabre is such a great theme.

Yes I love the idea of the Danse Macabre as a theme for the Nine of Swords too, I just don't like that skeleton in the foreground and I think the reason that I don't like it is that it makes the card look like digital artwork as opposed to a Victorian painting (which is what I love about the Victorian Romantic deck).

baba-prague

25-03-2007, 07:58

It doesn't look like Victorian art. I think it has a CGI look to it and that's what I don't like about it. The skeleton looks computer generated, as if it's just been added digitally.

OK I'll shut up now :)

Oh! Well the skeleton is in fact right out of a Victorian book (although taken apart and reassembled :) ). But I think wait until we are further on with the deck and can show some of the cards in more detail then it might look different in context.

We don't intend these cards to have quite the untouched Victorian look that's there in the Victorian Romantic though. We're in fact doing a lot more of our own drawing in this deck and combining from a greater range of sources. We don't want it to look modern either, but as I say, I still think Herzog's Nosferatu is a good parallel - it isn't intended to look like a Victorian film (just as this isn't intended to look like a Victorian deck). Rather it's a modern view of a Victorian story (in Herzog's case with nods to the 1930s too), just as our deck is a modern view of the traditional (which is largely but not entirely Victorian) Gothic.

Robin Fariel

25-03-2007, 11:51

I love the idea behind the Nine of Swords. I'm not sure about the skeleton in the foreground. But the danse macabre is such a great theme.

It is brilliant. Opens up a whole new venue for the 9 Sw.

For me, that is what a succesful Tarot deck does. It gives one a whole new layer of meaning to a card that one didn't even imagine before.

Apocalipstick

25-03-2007, 12:27

So when is this slated for release, anyway?

I keep thinking August for some reason.

Am I right? Wrong? Confused?

Edited to add, I don't remember seeing any actual dates in the thread.

baba-prague

25-03-2007, 12:31

Early autumn, but it's too far off to be more accurate than that as yet I'm afraid. The printing of the BBCats second edition took forever this time round, so we may have to factor that in - though hopefully another time the printer would be a bit faster.

HearthCricket

25-03-2007, 12:37

I am really, really hoping this will be out by October 1st. I want to work with it all of October and have it for Halloween. After that my mind is so much more on Christmas and I am not in a very gothic mood again, until spring!

Apocalipstick

25-03-2007, 12:48

I assume early autumn is the tentative date for the US publication?

I may not be there by then, and I'd really like to have it as soon as it comes out. :D

baba-prague

25-03-2007, 12:57

We hope so. It really depends how we get on in the next couple of months. So far the cards are going pretty well, but we have absolutely nothing for some of them - then again, it's always like that, some things come easily and others just don't.

We plan a photography session soon in a graveyard here that is notorious for having an authentic vampire grave (whatever that means). So if we survive that...

baba-prague

25-03-2007, 12:58

Of course, once it's printed we'll also have to arrange to get the deck properly haunted. That may take time ;)

Apocalipstick

25-03-2007, 13:05

Hah! Gothic and haunted! Ebay, shmebay!

I realize you guys are busy, but a brief report on shooting photos at an alleged vampire's grave could be fun for those of us who have no access to such venues.

baba-prague

25-03-2007, 13:12

Yes, that would be fun. I'll see what I can do. The vampire myths were actually arguably stronger in Bohemia than in Transylvania and graves at which, in medieval times, the bodies were treated to destroy vampirism actually have been found in this region. I will talk to our contact and ask him more more about why this particular graveyard is seen as so significant in this respect (he is off working on a horror/ghost film in Moscow right now).

We will be accepting donations of garlic, crosses and blessed water at the studio address.

Apocalipstick

25-03-2007, 13:36

LOL, don't forget the mirrors. May come in handy for detection purposes.

Romanian vampires aren't exactly vampires as most people understand the term nowadays, even in Transylvania. I'm not familiar with Bohemian folklore, but there does seem to be a stronger affinity for beliefs in blood-sucking undead the further west one goes in central Europe.

I'm looking forward to the report!

Scion

25-03-2007, 21:02

Of course, once it's printed we'll also have to arrange to get the deck properly haunted. That may take time ;)
Well, not THAT much time, if you're willing to take drastic steps... })

FaintlyMacabre

25-03-2007, 22:48

I'd resisted even looking at this thread until today and I was ready to jump on the silver bandwagon until I saw The Tower.

I hope you don't mind my comments, but it seemed from your earlier post that you may not have been satisfied with it either. I don't think I would care for it anyway (and I've used some weird Towers) but I think much of my objection to this one is that the figures are overpowering the Tower and, as someone else mentioned, it is very static. I just looked again and there's no way I get any Tower meanings from this image.

Of course you can't please everyone, and I really appreciate getting a preview of this beautiful deck and some of the inspiration behind it.

Diana

baba-prague

26-03-2007, 03:37

Well, many thanks - but we really aren't asking for card-by-card critiques at this stage as we know that judging by former decks early cards tends to get altered again before the end. It's one reason we only showed four (and won't show more for quite some time). Of the ones shown, my hunch would be that The Tower is most likely to have some changes before it's finalised, but certainly we won't be doing that yet (things depend so much on what we do with other cards that we're now working on).

We weren't actually planning to show the deck at all yet, but of course the annual entry into catalogues (which means the cover goes into Amazon etc - so needs to be on our site) always tends to force the issue rather early. Still, there are good sides to that too.

However, thanks for the comments, all of which have been read with interest.

and...Scion - what CAN you mean??!!

FaintlyMacabre

26-03-2007, 06:49

Ah, sorry.

baba-prague

26-03-2007, 06:57

No, please don't apologise. I just want to explain why we won't be responding to individual card critiques the way we might, for instance, if this thread was in Creation and if such critique was actively sought. I mean, we won't be altering images and reposting them or anything like that. But I'd rather explain the reasons for this (see my earlier post), than just look like we are ignoring input.

Perhaps I should just add that the way we work is to sketch out most of the cards before we begin any finalisation, so we have a whole picture in mind. Then towards the end we run through the "nearly finals" once or twice and do some adjustments so that the whole fits together.

I'd also say that in my past experience for everyone who doesn't like a card someone else will love it - so we just have to follow our own decisions - which are sometimes very actively debated here (I mean here in the studio)!

It's still good to hear more general reactions though, particularly as I am working on the book now too.

Alta

26-03-2007, 07:08

and...Scion - what CAN you mean??!!baba-prague, it involves a cat in Spandex and a witch's peaked hat with a mysterious evil smile and Alex's camera.

Little Baron

26-03-2007, 08:57

You know, just as a personal preference, one of the great things about buying a new deck is opening it and going through the cards one by one, with a nice cup of tea - thinking 'isn't that a nice one' etc. With the Victorian Romantic I had seen them all before I got it, which might have been why I was a little disappointed at the time. In that, I wonder why you need to show us anything - when discussion of the stories behind your work is enough to whet the appetite of people here and interesting enough content for the thread. In these early stages, showing us samples could damage your enthusiasm and flow as much as it could spur it on.

You are never going to satisfy everyone, so you may as well satisfy yourselfs and know inside that you have done the best job you can; closest to your highest standards of quality and intent. You will always get many customers, who will adore what you put out. You will always get a few whingers. That's life.

But to all those who have broadened my knowledge of horror and gothic.

LB

HearthCricket

26-03-2007, 09:07

You are thinking a bit like me, LB. Sometimes not seeing the whole deck, and only a few cards to get the feel of the deck, is the nicest feeling. I like the idea of being surprised when I open that box!

Baba~The graveyard you are speaking of...is that the one with the organ music playing in the background that you went to, to haunt the Victorian Flower Oracle? I loved that place! Very gothic and creepy!!

rosyelf

26-03-2007, 09:57

LB, I am with you entirely on this one-one of life's great pleasures is to open a wonderful tarot deck and go through the cards one by one over a cup of tea :) Absolutely.

Personally, I always make sure I don't look at all the scans in advance, just to add an extra element of surprise.

Little Baron

26-03-2007, 10:04

Definitely Hearthy and Rosey

I have seen enough of this deck [and trust from previous works] to know I will get something from it. I think I will be happy to see it as a whole, in person.

We will all spend enough time on here saying what we like and what we don't when it is published.

LB

Myrrha

26-03-2007, 12:03

I am wondering if you have plans to use imagery of the Sedlec ossuary? That is the first place I'd head if I had a chance to go to Prague. Just curious.

www.kostnice.cz

--Myrrha

baba-prague

26-03-2007, 12:15

Yes, the cross in the Queen of Swords is actually from Sedlec ossuary, as are the pillars behind the High Priestess. Wonderful place and we plan to use photos from there quite a lot.

Scion

26-03-2007, 13:25

and...Scion - what CAN you mean??!!

Not so much Marion's spandex, :D although synthetic textiles can verge on the numinous... I was thinking more practically, about those castles built with a corpse in their foundations so that they'd have a proper ghost to prowl the Keep. Proactive marketing from the Beyond.

People die, decks apparently need haunting, if eBay is any indicator. It seems a waste not to at least offer the apparitional gig to someone local. Shuffle your mortal coil, travel the world, see the sites without spending a koruna! It occurred to me that you could convince a few of the neighborhood neck-romantics to rustle up a ghost or two to haunt the cardstock before it goes to press. The mortality-challenged have to eat, right. :D And think of what it would do for your resale on eBay! Otherwise I think we're talking a straight summoning and binding which could open up all sorts of doors for your decks.

Either way, it's taking a page from the infallible See of Logos, a genuine pipeline to the beyond: guaranteed. :thumbsup:

X

S

baba-prague

26-03-2007, 13:45

Well, we actually do have a headless coachman about twenty yards from the studio (I know it's a cliche, but I can't help that). Should I ask him to come in for interview? Riding round and round the little square he haunts has to be awfully dull.

Or should we find a White Lady? They say every Bohemian Castle has one...

Hmm, we could just focus on haunting the Silver edition to keep the job to manageable proportions.

Hexerei

26-03-2007, 15:34

Not just bohemian, every castle has one! A grey lady as well.

Pagan X

26-03-2007, 20:25

If you want the decks to be haunted, just give me permission and I'll call a few friends.

The Museum's greatest benefactor was very wealthy man who happened to be gay and a true Magus; he willed his book and his Tarot deck collection to the Museum. I'm sure he'd be very pleased to be remembered & to assist from his side of the Veil. He had an art gallery in life, and donated money to many worthy causes, including founding a Jazz festival. He was fascinated by Freemasonry and the mysteries of Francis Bacon.

He probably has made some friends who would enjoy inspiring new artists & preserving magic and wonder.

Glass Owl

26-03-2007, 21:08

I just found this thread and I am so excited about this deck! Suspense, mystery, dread, spookiness, drama, and terror all rolled into one stylish, moody deck--wow! And I really love the fact that this deck appears to capture the elements of the classic gothic tale well (which I love) without going into the horror genre, which unfortunately, I don't care for.

nicki

27-03-2007, 03:24

Ive been watching this thread with interest and have been looking for a Gothic Deck for a while, i was tempted by Vargo's, but something stopped me and now I no what it was i was waiting for this deck, I congratulate you on another great creation, you are very talented and gifted, keep up the good work.

nicki

baba-prague

29-03-2007, 07:21

Sar

02-04-2007, 06:07

I have visited Praha twice, great city!

Pagan X

02-04-2007, 14:46

baba-prague

02-04-2007, 14:54

Not only did he visit Prague, he bought a coat there for our librarian.

He was a world traveler, buying for his art gallery.

His favorite Tarots were the Thoth and Navigators the the Mystic Sea.

He also used Tarot symbols in his own art.

I think he would have fun aiding in getting the right books and source materials into your hands, and whatever is useful for artists.

He sounds rather wonderful - and an ideal resident ghost for the deck. If you are in touch with him, please do ask if he'd be interested - the position could of course be part time as I would guess he is busily engaged in many other things ;)

sravana

04-04-2007, 19:40

.....

Apocalipstick

07-04-2007, 11:13

baba-prague

07-04-2007, 11:19

Here's another question, and I apologize if it's already been covered somewhere in the thread.

Will the Dark Sister have bags like the Tarot of Prague?

I just saw one yesterday, and it was gorgeous.

Yes, yes, yes! I have been tempted to do a Queen of Swords one already, but restrained myself (but we have this antique black Bohemian brocade that would be SO good).

I really get a buzz from doing the bags because it's related but at the same time so different from making the card images.

Apocalipstick

07-04-2007, 11:27

I have to say, I don't normally use bags, as I prefer boxes. But if this deck will have them, I'll probably try to get one of each kind.

The fabric you mention sounds a wonderful fit. I can't wait!

Umbrae

07-04-2007, 11:28

Of course, once it's printed we'll also have to arrange to get the deck properly haunted. That may take time ;)

I know some experts at getting decks haunted...http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=75268

ZenMusic

07-04-2007, 11:42

baba-prague

07-04-2007, 11:50

>oing the bags because it's related but at the same time so different

and chance of slightly larger bags, I always wrap my deck in silk before I put it in a bag, very tight fit with these (i have 3, lovely VR bags)

Oh, interesting question. Someone else recently asked me about bags large enough for a book also. Do you think there would be many people wanting those? To me our bags seem on the largish size now and I don't want the decks to be lost in them, but then again, we could do a kind of a kit size.

Once we have the new printer really going properly then larger prints WILL be possible, so in theory larger bags would be also.

Cocobird55

07-04-2007, 11:55

I'm not sure about the books -- I keep all my books together on a shelf in my bookcase. But what I think would be wonderful is a bag that's big enough to hold both the deck and the journal, because I do like keeping those together.

Umbrae

07-04-2007, 11:55

Apocalipstick

07-04-2007, 11:56

How much larger would these new theoretical bags be?

Apocalipstick

07-04-2007, 11:57

But not the kitchen sink, Umbrae? That's just not stylish enough, I suppose.

baba-prague

07-04-2007, 12:03

How much larger would these new theoretical bags be?

No idea! What do you think would be useful? It's funny that it's come up twice in the last couple of weeks, so it seems as though it might be something that at least some people would like. I sort of vaguely imagined large enough to hold a deck and a paperback companion book.

Apocalipstick

07-04-2007, 12:10

Actually, mine was a question motivated by curiosity more than anything else. I'm honestly not sure how useful they'd be for me. They probably would work best as part of a kit, as you say.

Or a limited run, in which case they should have a little extra special something? Like maybe silver thread to go along with the silver edition.

I have no idea what it takes to manufacture these, so it's all speculation on my part.

Personally, I don't see myself using a bag that large. But I can definitely see how enough people would want such a bag.

baba-prague

07-04-2007, 12:11

I'm looking for a bag that's large enough for the deck, the companion book, a bottle of a good red, something with a delicate bouquet and yet a complex palate, some chocolates, my mistress – should my wife be unavailable – two children, 1 dog, 1 cat, 1 parakeet, three sandwiches, an espresso maker, and a Java Juice.

Oh and it has to match the colour of my motogucci, wait...I don't have one of those...never mind...

OMG, I just read this. I somehow missed it (my subconscious in full defence mode I assume).

Umbrae, that is not a bag. That is a TENT! Would you like it with matching tent-pegs sir?

I now have just imagined the travelling Tarot Garden tent - complete with coffee grinder- and I sort of like the vision. Umbrae as the modern gypsy fortune-teller. I DO like this...

But WHAT does this have to do with the Bohemian Gothic pray tell me?

Umbrae

07-04-2007, 12:42

Bohemian Gothic?

Never heard of such a thing. Well I gotta get busy...scare up some more ghosts to haunt decks...and coffee - need more coffee.

Say...if you take the High Priestess, stand her on her head, flop the background, then print it, she'll never be reversed!

And…is she naked under those robes?

connegrl

07-04-2007, 12:42

OMG, I just read this. I somehow missed it (my subconscious in full defence mode I assume).

Umbrae, that is not a bag. That is a TENT! Would you like it with matching tent-pegs sir?

I now have just imagined the travelling Tarot Garden tent - complete with coffee grinder- and I sort of like the vision. Umbrae as the modern gypsy fortune-teller. I DO like this...

But WHAT does this have to do with the Bohemian Gothic pray tell me?

Well, its one of those things that leaves a lot to the imagination and it can get kind of scary the more you think about it! LOL

Jen

Miren

07-04-2007, 12:53

Wow! I only just ran across this (maybe because I'm not in this forum too much).

Deck lust! Wow. It's almost like the dark side of the Victorian Romantic. In a really good way. I think your allusions to Stoker and James fit quite well. Maybe Poe too.

faunabay

07-04-2007, 15:16

I like the bags the size you have them now. I bought one bag years ago to carry a deck and book - and never used it!! It was just too bulky to carry around. So, for me, I like your bags the way they are. :*

Embla

07-04-2007, 17:09

Oh baba I so want a blue brocade Queen of Swords-bag..... How can I convince you????

Little Baron

07-04-2007, 17:22

No idea! What do you think would be useful? It's funny that it's come up twice in the last couple of weeks, so it seems as though it might be something that at least some people would like. I sort of vaguely imagined large enough to hold a deck and a paperback companion book.

To be really honest, I like them the size they are. I have a bag I got elsewhere and it is large. The cards fall about inside and I have to fold it round them so they don't get bent, as they fan out within it.

You're bags are just perfect as they are. But I suppose you could offer different sizes as an option. Would that be a posibility?

My only quibble would be 'could we have a few more masculine designs' this time round? I really want a bag for my Victorian Romantic but all the ones there at the moment, are a bit too girly. Might have to use my Prague bag :(

LB

HearthCricket

07-04-2007, 17:35

Oh, I would definitely keep the bags the size they are. I can easily slip the cards, many times still in the box, right into your bags, and they still have room to slip and slide from one side to another. I would be afraid a larger bag would have them all over the place.

Now if you hunger to make a few larger bags you could always make some with colours that match well with larger decks on the market, like the Druidcraft or the Tarot of Dreams, etc., which we would all probably go nuts for, and sell them on the side. But for your decks, unless you plan to do a mumbo deck, please stick to the same size bags. Like so many before me have said...they are purrrfect! :D

BTW I totally love my zip pocket book bag (Undine) I got from you. More patterns and you have a customer for those! They are also perfect for carrying around a few decks at a time! :)

EarthAngel2911

07-04-2007, 17:42

I definitely prefer your bags the size that they are right now. I'm afraid that a larger bag, which may fit the companion book, will leave the cards with too much room to slip and slide around. I suppose you could house the cards within the box within the bag, but that kind of defeats the purpose, in my opinion. With decks I'm using regularly, I keep the cards out of the box in a bag to keep the box looking like new. :)

Cocobird55

07-04-2007, 18:25

I do agree that the current bags are the perfect size, really. When I suggested a larger one to fit the deck and journal, I didn't think about the cards sliding around in a bigger space.

.traveller.

07-04-2007, 18:33

Why not make the companion book smaller so that it fits in with the cards in the standard size bag?

Miren

07-04-2007, 20:22

Ooooor....maybe a companion matching bags set?

A small one just big enough to hold the cards snugly and happily (not too tight). And then a slightly larger, one big enough to hold the bag full of cards and the companion book. That way you could keep them together or separately. As the situation warrented.

And a manly design avail. for LB. ;) I was about to suggest the Tower card, but I don't think I'd want to carry a Tower-themed bag around with me. That's just asking for trouble. :eek:

I agree that I prefer my bags to fit the cards (unless they're still in the box too), but I am sometimes annoyed that my Legend: Arthurian companion book can't travel in the bag with the cards.

(hmm.....I could always do this on my own for my own cards. Brilliant idea! Thank you everyone for making me think this!!!!)

jackdaw*

07-04-2007, 21:37

I would think their drawstring evening bags (the round-bottomed ones) in their store would work for that.

Me, I prefer to keep companion books in the bookshelf and store the decks in boxes and/or bags that fit the deck nicely.

a_shikhs

08-04-2007, 03:35

I prefer the bags the size they are now. The cards are perfectly comfortable and not squashed in it. If you make bigger bags, the cards might get folded and turn upside down which is scarier. They are perfect the way they are. :) Love your bags. :love:

EarthAngel2911

08-04-2007, 21:32

You know, I visited BABA's site again and soaked up the images they've posted so far, and had another look at the Tower.... I know some people commented that they didn't think the Tower looked threatening enough with no lightning bolts and such.

But being one of those people who dreads seeing the Tower in a spread, and yet always expecting it, this Tower makes my blood run cold. To look up at that looming spire, the figures above laughing at me, the feeling of impending doom is palpable.

Miren

08-04-2007, 22:47

RichardDirt

08-04-2007, 22:52

Maybe I missed something, but where are all the pictures people are talking about?

EarthAngel2911

08-04-2007, 23:41

If you look earlier in this thread, Karen of Magic-Realist posted about four or five pictures of cards they have "completed" so far. These are the same cards that are on their website www.bohemiangothic.com.

Sulis

09-04-2007, 08:14

Maybe I missed something, but where are all the pictures people are talking about?

A few images are on the Magic Realist site: http://www.magic-realist.com/

Or take a look at the first page of this thread; Baba Prague has posted some images in her posts.

6 Haunted Days

09-04-2007, 08:40

Maybe I missed something, but where are all the pictures people are talking about?

Oh I don't know, you could try going to their website. But that's too obvious.

baba-prague

09-04-2007, 09:53

We will post more images here - but not until May probably. In the summer I will also build the website so that it eventually shows all the cards:

http://www.bohemiangothic.com

But right now I am behind with doing that for the new Baroque Bohemian Cats so have to get that up to date first!

shadowdancer

12-05-2007, 13:18

Just seen the two of cups... now that really is a GOOD card!! :)

I have been sitting on the fence with this deck having seen the first few cards but this really hit the spot - so innocent but at the same time so ....... subtely creepy.

Getting my attention now without a doubt.

Can't wait to see more

Good luck with this

Davina

Knight of Wands

12-05-2007, 16:53

Woow

Jim wants :D

faunabay

12-05-2007, 17:02

Just seen the two of cups... now that really is a GOOD card!! :)

Where's this two of cups???? Huh? Huh? I have to see it!!! Mwhahahaha!!

baba-prague

12-05-2007, 17:23

Well, I put it on my blog a couple of days ago, but it's changed a little bit since - we just thought it was rather too dark (colour, not content) so we used more moonlight and brought out some of the details a bit more. As you know we were intending to show the cards in batches, but I just wanted to get some reaction to this one as I think it has just the kind of atmosphere I'm aiming for (can't speak for Alex who has a slightly different view of the Gothic - interestingly enough - I think he prefers The Lovers card, which we have almost finished but not quite enough to show).

The advantage of showing one or two cards on the blog is that the images are larger. Here it is:
http://baba-studio.livejournal.com/241656.html

Oh - update - I've now put up the latest card.

HearthCricket

12-05-2007, 17:28

Very nice! Without even looking at the blog explanation of the card I immediately thought about Mina and Harker. Especially since they are on that bench, which reminds me of the one in the novel. She does look sweet, and so does he, yet the way she is turned slightly away with an interesting look on her face makes it look like she has an adventurous side to her, too! I also see a tad of disappointment, like she has just heard he will be off on his travels for a while and they will be parted. Oh, and the background with the bats and castle. Oooh, I just want to pull out all my gothic novels and devour them! This looks wonderful and yes, very dark and gothic and mysterious, but not gross in any way! And lacking the super sexed-up movie versions. How many people I have met that never read Dracula and think they know the story, simply from the movies. They are sooo pleasantly surprised when they actually read the novel and find out the real version!

faunabay

12-05-2007, 17:34

Ohhhhh! This is great! "Mina" does have a bit of something in her expression to me. It's very sweet but so sweet I could see her turning around and showing her fangs to "Harker" all the sudden too! :)
I also love a bit of humor with my horror. It is funny how when you first see it you laugh, then, like you said, at 4 in the morning it's quite creepy when you remember it again. :)

.traveller.

12-05-2007, 18:21

That is the creepiest Two of Cups I have ever seen. The subtitle should read "Werewolf meets bloodsucker". It's going to be a long year waiting for this deck.

Annabelle

12-05-2007, 22:04

Oh-my-god-squeeeeeeeeeee! That is a fabulous two of cups.

This just may turn out to be my favorite baba deck yet.

Emily

13-05-2007, 02:35

I really like that Two of Cups - I think this deck may turn out to be my favourite baba deck too. :)

The cards we've seen so far are making me want to get my copy of Dracula back out and reread it, or have a marathon session with my favourite black & white horrors - ahh Dracula, the Wolfman and the Mummy and maybe the Creature from the Black Lagoon. :D

a_shikhs

13-05-2007, 02:51

Wowwwww!!!! That's a gorgeous 2 of Cups.. Cant wait to see more cards now. :D

Little Baron

13-05-2007, 03:01

Do people think it helps to have a knowledge of the gothic films, books and characters that are 'suggested' in the imagery of these cards, because as someone that does not, I am not getting the same enthusiasm for the 'Two of Cups' as other members?

LB

Emily

13-05-2007, 03:04

Little Baron

13-05-2007, 03:13

Hi LB,

I think with me its the definite attraction - I was bought up on the old Black & White horrors, I knew who Bela Lugosi and Lon Chaney and JR were from a very early age. And then as I got older, it was a treat to watch the old Hammer House of Horrors on a Friday night - Christopher Lee, Vincent Price.

I don't like slasher/blood and guts 'modern' horror movies at all and still much prefer to watch an oldie. I've got other 'Gothic' decks but I like the few cards of the Bohemian Gothic we've seen more than the complete decks I have :)

This is what I was wondering. I remember some of those movies. I remember being anxious and scared about them as they started when I was a kid - the dramatic music and the stage-coach driving through the forest. And that still makes me tingle, thinking about it, with the mind of a child. But looking at it all now, it is almost a bit too camp and kitsch for me. And I think that this might be what I am reflecting onto these cards. This one, in particular, is a bit too comic-book - in the way that The Munsters was never really scary because you knew that it was comedy after all and not the real deal. Does that make sense?

I have my distant memories of that genre of film, but I know little to nothing about Gothic literature and I wondered if it is those details that I am not attaching to the images to gain the same understanding that others have. Without that personal and sentimental attachment, it doesn't strike much of a chord in me. If I knew the characters that were suggested, then seeing this card might make me smile.
The other thing about this card, which I find visually unsettling, is that the background is sharper than the foreground. I don't feel as close to the couple in it as I would like to. I look forward to seeing it with the others in the deck, as I cannot remember all of them from my initial look and would be interested to see how they work 'as a group'.

LB

Emily

13-05-2007, 03:24

Yes LB, I see what you mean.

I also love old style 'Gothic' Writers - Edgar Allen Poe, Mary Shelley, Bram Stoker, and maybe I'm hoping to find a little something of the magic of 'Gothic literature' in this deck. :)

baba-prague

13-05-2007, 04:36

Hi LB. Yes, I think to relate to the deck it will help to know some of the classics of Gothic - in film or literature. However, none of the cards will refer explicitly to any one scene, it's more that the imagery picks up on the classic themes of the genre. It is, of course, a genre which is particularly strongly established so many of the central motifs - haunted houses, vampires, ghostly happenings in graveyards, madness and decayed aristo families, werewolves, transformations, secrets et al. - are very familiar to most people. But we are depicting those with more of "classic" feel - not in the way that they have tended to be shown in the last few years (though I'd say "Interview with a Vampire" is one modern novel that manages to capture much of classic Gothic - not sure I would say the same about Anne Rice's "Witches" chronicles though, which I find much more kitschy).

As I've said before, this is not horror in the sense of a modern slasher movie - and it's also not the spectacular but, to my mind, shallow and ultimately dull imagery of modern films like Van Helsing (sorry to keep referring to that, but it's such a good example of the OTT use of CGI and blood and gore - worst depiction of the "vampire brides" I can think of - they are more like aliens from a bad sci-fi). The deck is intended to be much more suggestive - it will imply rather than show.

There IS humour - the best and creepiest Gothic has always employed black humour - you have only to read Poe or M.R.James to see that. The humour actually adds to the horror as these writers understood - it disarms the viewer or reader and helps to move them out of the everyday and draw towards something much more disturbing and unreal.

Sulis

13-05-2007, 06:21

Little Baron

13-05-2007, 08:25

Thanks Karen. Nice to hear those thoughts. I think there are obviously subtleties that someone without knowledge may miss. I guess you will have an accompanying book to point people in the right direction though, won't you. As many know, I quite like the possibility of researching away from a deck, if an expert can show me where to look - in the same way that I found looking into Buddhism interesting away from Place's deck, Vodou when studying the New Orleans and Prague when reading up around your first deck. In that sort of research, I often come back to a card and think 'ah .. I get it now'.

And yes, Sulis, it may just not be one I end up buying. But I think I would like to see cards together as it is difficult to get an over all impression of whether it would work personally when you see them singularly. I cannot remember them now, but there were some I liked, out of the initial batch. And I think that whatever deck you buy, some will always appear weaker than others - just a personal thing.

I think that a lot of my opinion is based on personal expectation - which no artist can ever live up to. And nor should they. We all have ideas of what 'dark' means to us. To some, it is signified by blood and gore [not for me, I am affraid]. Some may like the idea of dark, but don't want anything in the deck that makes them uncomfortable. Others might like a little bit of 'haunted house' amusement. And some may see 'darkness' in images that reflect that more sombre part of their soul. For me, I look for something that is poetic and romantic, at times sorrowful and painful - like throwing your heart out on the table for all to see. Nobody can give me that personal preference in a deck and I understand that. So maybe, in terms of this deck, I shall just watch this project unfold, and should I think it might be something I can use one day, will appreciate it for how it is, rather than how I want it to be. A little bit of that laid back funfair ghost train might be fun, if I go with it and relax. All rides have surprises and the unexpected, so I shall keep an open mind ;)

Thanks for sharing, Karen.
LB

baba-prague

13-05-2007, 08:45

I love the 2 of Cups and have the same connection to this sort of genre as Emily has.
I love those creepy old films and gothic novels too.
I really love those Victorian ghost stories that get put on the BBC on Christmas Eve or stories like 'The Woman in White' by Wilkie Collins.
Karen are you planning on showing all of the cards on the site again like you did with the Victorian Romantic?

Yes, it's very "Woman in White" - that gets the mood we want very well.

When I say humour, no I don't mean ghost train humour (though I loved the ghost train as a child). I mean more the kind of wicked humour that you get in something like M.R. James' story "Oh Whistle and I'm Come to you My Lad". It's an absolutely terrifying story (though definitely dated now) - but it also softens us up with humour before we come to the horror - the central figure is SO slow on the uptake about what he's set in motion. That's the kind of humour I'm talking about. There is, for example, something humorous in the slightly over the top sweetness of the young woman in our Two of Cups. But also something potentially very scary - she looks as though she is day-dreaming, is she in some way already anticipating the much more thrilling courtship of the vampire? Let's face it - her tweedy suitor does look awfully respectable doesn't he? Is he a touch boring? Maybe there is something in her expression to make us smile wryly and wonder?

And yes, we are planning to put all of the cards on the site, but I doubt we will even begin that process for some time, and we may well not have them all there by the time the deck is published in Europe (though I will try, but I know it sometimes gets behind). But the pages of the site will be well marked, so you could just look at some of them rather than all. I know what you mean about the pleasure of some surprises when the deck arrives. Though I think in any case cards on screen often look very different to the real thing in print.

shadowdancer

13-05-2007, 09:04

gregory

13-05-2007, 09:24

October !!! How THOUGHTFUL. I can demand it as a birthday prezzie ! :D

baba-prague

13-05-2007, 09:51

thanks for the update Karen. Out of curiosity, how many cards have been finished to date? I know October seems ages away, but will creep up fairly quickly, especially with the pressure of producing a deck to such a strict timeline

good luck with it all

Davina

We have just about the whole deck sketched out (i.e. the elements we are using found or photographed) - with the usual issues with about ten cards (though today we think we may have solved some of those). I'm not sure we have any finished! Well, no that's fortunately an exaggeration but we always do tweak at the end. I'll count this week to see how many we would say are more or less done. One long phase is finding or photographing the material and as that's mostly done now it should go fairly quickly. I hope :joke:

HearthCricket

13-05-2007, 10:02

I am just praying and praying this deck is in my greedy hands by Halloween. I can't think of a more perfect deck to use during the month of October, when the days get shorter, the evenings longer, the flicker of the fire creating creepy shadows on the wall, and the wind wuthering around the manor, while the owl hoots at the full moon.....

Well, you get the picture. :D

Jewel

14-05-2007, 13:07

Karen I can definetly see the inspiration in the "The Dark Sister", as well as how she would not let you rest until you put her on paper *LOL*. I am really looking forward to this deck, and think I need to pick up some Edgan Alan Poe short stories while I wait.

So I know we cannot add the Vampuss to this deck ..... but do you think perhpas a Vampuss tarot bag might become available around the release time of this deck??????? Vampuss climbing down the tower perhaps. Sorry I had to ask (beg is more like it *LOL*) ... I would love to my Dark Sister in the Vampuss bag, and I be Gregory would have to have one too.

lunakasha

14-05-2007, 13:24

So I know we cannot add the Vampuss to this deck ..... but do you think perhpas a Vampuss tarot bag might become available around the release time of this deck??????? Vampuss climbing down the tower perhaps. Sorry I had to ask (beg is more like it *LOL*) ... I would love to my Dark Sister in the Vampuss bag, and I be Gregory would have to have one too.

YES!!!!! What an excellent suggestion, Jewel.....I am right there with you, shamelessly begging.....

*pretty pretty please*??? :bugeyed: })

gregory

14-05-2007, 14:43

Well, if Karen WILL NOT make a deck, it would be better than nothing.....

I might make a deck in private from the book.....

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

baba-prague

14-05-2007, 14:47

Well, if Karen WILL NOT make a deck, it would be better than nothing.....

I might make a deck in private from the book.....

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Spit, hiss, furr on end, tale (er tail) fluffed up!!!

I will try to persuade Alex that a very, very limited special (either Majors only or a 32-card oracle) MIGHT be a good idea for next year.

To be honest part of my motivation is the idea of the accompanying bags - plus we had quite a few extra illustrations half-made that never got into the book. And Minnie wants to reprise her role as 'Innkeeper's Wife" (which she feels is in fact central to the entire story).

But, you know, only if it would make a readable deck in some way - if not, then no, we won't do it.

As Gregory would say, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Jewel

14-05-2007, 15:11

I will try to persuade Alex that a very, very limited special (either Majors only or a 32-card oracle) MIGHT be a good idea for next year. But, you know, only if it would make a readable deck in some way - if not, then no, we won't do it.
I am in agreement with that :D YEAH!!!!!!
To be honest part of my motivation is the idea of the accompanying bags.
Could we start with the bag ~flutters eyes and purrs~ ..... I am not kidding, I would really love a Vampuss crawling down the tower wall bag for my Silver Dark Sister!

Granville

14-05-2007, 16:28

Spit, hiss, furr on end, tale (er tail) fluffed up!!!

I will try to persuade Alex that a very, very limited special (either Majors only or a 32-card oracle) MIGHT be a good idea for next year.

To be honest part of my motivation is the idea of the accompanying bags - plus we had quite a few extra illustrations half-made that never got into the book. And Minnie wants to reprise her role as 'Innkeeper's Wife" (which she feels is in fact central to the entire story).

But, you know, only if it would make a readable deck in some way - if not, then no, we won't do it.

As Gregory would say, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I will put my reservation in now for this very limited edition. Karen, you have my paypal, tell Alex I am willing to pay BEFORE seeing a single card!

jackdaw*

14-05-2007, 17:02

Same here, and I don't even have the Vampuss book (... yet)

Grizabella

22-05-2007, 10:42

After getting the Victorian Romantic yesterday, I have to have the Bohemian Gothic when it comes out! Have to, have to, have to! :D

By the way, I got all excited about the Vampuss, but that was because on first glance, I thought it was a tarot deck, but I'd still like to get the book.

baba-prague

22-05-2007, 11:05

We have really had our heads down on this one and it's been enormously satisfying working on it. Now I can see the overall pattern and I'm excited because there is a very distinct character to the cards. But this deck will be VERY different from a deck like the Vargo and I want to emphasise that in case that's what anyone is expecting. There will be vampires and werewolves but there are also cards that are, I don't know, insinuating and atmospheric - suggesting rather than stating is perhaps what I'm trying to say.

We don't want to show many cards until we are much further along (we have most of the cards sketched but sketches can look very crude and misleading). But here is just one - almost finished - The Fool:

6 Haunted Days

22-05-2007, 11:14

Coooool! Loved it at first glance, then an image popped into my head....that movie Karate Kid....doing the Crane stance LOL. I'm sure it will go away once I have the whole deck in front of me though and it blends in......

Fudugazi

22-05-2007, 11:19

I've been haunting your website for a while now, to see how this was progressing.

Fabulous Fool! just the right side of cat thief (or is that a cat thief phantom?) or the daredevil that fell to his death and forever returns to haunt the scene...

Sidhe-Ra

22-05-2007, 11:22

It looks like a sinister Daniel Larruso about to beat the Cobra Kai in the exciting climax of the Karate Kid!

xx

Ah, I see I am not the first- that'll teach me to post in a hurry....

shadowdancer

22-05-2007, 11:22

I love the atmosphere already with the last two cards you have shown us.

The fool is an interesting variation and already I feel I could see that in context in a reading

out of interest, is this one deck you and Alex are having fun with? WHo is coming up with the initial thought line for each card?

Good luck with the rest of the project

Davina

baba-prague

22-05-2007, 11:31

Hehehe! Well, I've only seen on Karate Kid once ages ago, but maybe I will take a look and we may alter things just a little to take away any possible association. For me it was more Spring Heeled Jack - and all those other Gothic associations with rooftops high above cities.

Are we having fun with this? Yes, well, we have serious times and fun times with all the decks (the Cats are always great fun to work on). Who comes up with the ideas? Hmm, well, hard to say. Maybe me more than Alex on this one as I am more into Gothica than he is. But it's very shared. The deck is seriously creepy and also, at points, quite blackly humorous I hope. I think the combination of the two really will let the imagination fly in readings. Or that's the aim.

baba-prague

22-05-2007, 11:42

Okay. As Alex is out I have rifled through his files (no, I'm not serous!) and pulled out one more card. This one is definitely not quite finished as we need to do a little more work on the woman.

But this is a more "classic" card in many ways. I think you can begin to see how they will all fit together, though until we do the final pass over all of them (which won't be for at least a month) they may feel a bit distinct from each other in colouring etc:

HearthCricket

22-05-2007, 11:45

Oooh. I love the Lovers! The first thing it reminded me of was a young, innocent Rochester kissing Bertha on their wedding night, while she pauses and the moon starts to come out, reflecting her madness! Hehehehe....

baba-prague

22-05-2007, 11:48

Yes, it could well be (I am currently reading The Wide Sargasso Sea for the umpteenth time - thank-you Scion!) Or he could be an actual vampire (his skin is so blue-white compared to hers) or...

I want the cards to have this certain ambiguity about them. I really do think that's what will make this a fascinating deck to read with.

He's certainly vampiric - but a psychic vampire or more? You decide.

I probably ought not to mention it, but we do have a friend who is an actual decendant of Vlad Tepes commenting on the deck as we go along. You can't say we don't get the best of consultancy!

HearthCricket

22-05-2007, 12:00

Yes, and even though he is going for her neck and has a vampirish look to him, the moon and all, I could not help but immediately notice her dark hair, eyes and thick eyebrows, and say "That is Bertha!"

I think you are right. Because the cards are not definitively from any particular character/event everyone is going to see something different from them and what a lovely intuitive deck this is going to be! Can you imagine the readings from this? Whooosh! I love it!

P.S.~Oh, a Vlad decendant! Neat! I do hope you will properly haunt the batches of decks before sending them out!

P.S.S.~The latest bag/deck order arrived yesterday and I am in heaven. The cloth is lovely that you picked out! Thank you!!

baba-prague

22-05-2007, 12:01

I've been haunting your website for a while now, to see how this was progressing.

Haunt away! The more haunting the better for this deck. We are, by the way, incorporating many images of the Bone Ossuary and some of the famous cemeteries here. So the cards may well pick up some ghosts in their journeying.

You may enjoy this sound file - quite atmospheric:
http://archiv.radio.cz/hrbitov/index1.html

and this if you'd like something more visual (not our photos of course, we may put ours somewhere like Flickr later)
http://flickr.com/photos/fuxoft/sets/690703/

Emily

22-05-2007, 13:16

I love the two new cards - it's going to be an atmospheric, mysterious and intriguing deck - and I can't wait until October. :D

Jewel

22-05-2007, 13:26

Okay. As Alex is out I have rifled through his files (no, I'm not serous!) and pulled out one more card. This one is definitely not quite finished as we need to do a little more work on the woman.
The woman does look very "stiff". As if resigned, but tense. Now him ...... well no need to fix him *LOL*. I do love the atmosphere in the card though. I look forward to seeing it once you have "fixed" the woman.

I love the Fool! he is most interestingly teetering on the edge ... will he fly? or fall? if he takes that last little dance step ... inquiring minds want to know .... I just love the atmosphere created in this deck. The Fool is almost ominous, innocence into real potential folley. Just love it! Thanks for sharing.

baba-prague

22-05-2007, 13:41

The woman does look very "stiff". As if resigned, but tense. Now him ...... well no need to fix him *LOL*. I do love the atmosphere in the card though. I look forward to seeing it once you have "fixed" the woman.

I love the Fool! he is most interestingly teetering on the edge ... will he fly? or fall? if he takes that last little dance step ... inquiring minds want to know .... I just love the atmosphere created in this deck. The Fool is almost ominous, innocence into real potential folley. Just love it! Thanks for sharing.

Interesting comments - thank-you! I'm not sure that we will "unfreeze" the woman, as in a way that might take away. I want to show her unable to do anything - just mesmerised as that slick ******* has his way with her. It says a lot, I hope, about why we allow ourselves to become victims in "love" (or attraction or seduction). It's a dark Lovers of course, but then that shock factor is the whole point of the deck.

But I just think her head is not quite right yet - just needs some tweaking.

I think the Fool will also end up being changed a little - but not too much. The combination of spookiness and that slight circus quality may be what this card needs. If you know the story of Spring Heeled Jack he was horrifying and laughable in equal measure. That's part of what has fascinated me about that story since I was a small child.

Grizabella

22-05-2007, 14:16

For the woman in the Lovers card, considering that you're portraying the dark side of love, I think keeping her upper head in shadows is a good thing. It sort of says that she's unable to think for herself (either can't or won't) in this and just allows this to happen. Boy, do I ever identify!

TomTom

22-05-2007, 18:41

It will be a long wait till October for me.

Grizabella

22-05-2007, 18:48

For me, too, but long enough to save up for it. :D

jackdaw*

22-05-2007, 19:12

I think that Fool is my favourite of the cards so far :D

RichardDirt

23-05-2007, 01:22

Oh, I am hoping that the book that will go along with it will list all the gothic influences, like gothic literature and the like. I've always been interested, but really don't know much about it.

Jewel

23-05-2007, 09:59

Interesting comments - thank-you! I'm not sure that we will "unfreeze" the woman, as in a way that might take away. I want to show her unable to do anything - just mesmerised as that slick ******* has his way with her. It says a lot, I hope, about why we allow ourselves to become victims in "love" (or attraction or seduction). It's a dark Lovers of course, but then that shock factor is the whole point of the deck.

But I just think her head is not quite right yet - just needs some tweaking.
Right now to me she looks resigned but not a victim of him or herself. It might be her eyes ... not sure ... it might be the position of her head. Sort of like when being dipped in a dance and then held in that pose for a photo. To me she does not look like she is mesmerized, hoplessly surrendering to him, or that she is under his spell. Mesmerized would be really good. Sort of like when the vampires take control of their victims with their eyes and they totally surrender without even knowing they have. Again to me personally, she just does not really look like a victim of anything right now, she looks like she is resigned but resenting it and that she really does not like him.
If you know the story of Spring Heeled Jack he was horrifying and laughable in equal measure. That's part of what has fascinated me about that story since I was a small child.
I don't know the story but will certainly look it up! Thanks!

As this is a deck thread, and not a tarot deck creation thread, I do apologize for all the commentary on the Lovers card, but I could not help myself *LOL*. Overall I am really really liking what I have seen of the deck and the concept so far. It teases me with a chill and a thrill all at the same time, and I do not own a deck like that as of yet! So it looks as it will have something new to offer me. Great work! I look forward to the finished product and for the pre-order button to be placed on your web site :D (and the Vampuss tarot bag ... him crawling down the tower upside-down(pleeeeeaaaaaaaasssssseeeeeeeeee)

shadowdancer

23-05-2007, 10:58

This lovers card is soo interesting

I saw another angle - that she is willingly giving of herself as she knows something he doesn't. I get the feeling she may not be the victim here at all - I reckon tables could be turned. sorry for the pun but he might be biting off more than he chan chew as we say here in the UK! :)

Great how we all see things differently. This has the makings of being a very versatile deck even though the theme is quite strict to a genre

Davina

TomTom

24-05-2007, 17:01

I droooool like my dog; can't wait to get my hands on it; love borderless, love SILVER!!!!
Its the first Gothic deck I like.
Waiting for the Sea of Logos impatiently.

Chris

baba-prague

10-06-2007, 06:43

As you know, we aren't planning to show many cards until we really have a good many done, but couldn't resist with this one:

As you can see, the style has sort of softened as we've gone along (I mean in visual feeling, not so much in content) so we will need to do some work on some of the earlier cards - though hopefully this will mostly be minor.

Anyway, hard at work on it today too. But I hope this helps to answer the query about how we would do the "positive" cards. By the way, do look carefully at the stepping stones - the image here is rather small.

Little Baron

10-06-2007, 07:13

Just to say, that last attachment has crashed my computer twice. Maybe someone can check that out.

LB

jackdaw*

10-06-2007, 07:19

I see that TG has the standard version of this deck listed on their preorders already ...

I like the image on the World. But I am not sure if I see it really as the World. It would make a lovely Six of Swords, IMO. You know, the stepping stones used to cross the water ...

baba-prague

10-06-2007, 07:20

I see that TG has the standard version of this deck listed on their preorders already ...

Have they? Gosh that's quick!

baba-prague

10-06-2007, 07:33

I like the image on the World. But I am not sure if I see it really as the World. It would make a lovely Six of Swords, IMO. You know, the stepping stones used to cross the water ...

Well, I'll have to strongly disagree on that one :). I find her a perfect World for this deck, not just because she's a dancing figure, but also because of the meaning of the imagery. Her hands touch the tree (of life?) as she dances across the skulls - overcoming death and decay. When you think of where The World comes, right after Judgement, we can see this as a Danse Macabre that's actually transcended the grave - she's untouched by it.

Our Six of Swords is still being worked on - but will probably be much sadder, and show an actual boat.

_____
ps - LB, it's just an ordinary jpeg (and we have anti-virus software up to our ears). Maybe one of the mods would see if it's something up with the AT server? Or perhaps it was just a slow link?

Little Baron

10-06-2007, 07:40

ps - LB, it's just an ordinary jpeg (and we have anti-virus software up to our ears). Maybe one of the mods would see if it's something up with the AT server? Or perhaps it was just a slow link?

Its' weird. As I can open others. But the screen goes blank and I can't interract with the site at all - even to shut it down. Have to go through the whole 'Cntrl, Alt, Delete' proceedure. Will try again later.

LB

jackdaw*

10-06-2007, 07:50

Well, I'll have to strongly disagree on that one :). I find her a perfect World for this deck, not just because she's a dancing figure, but also because of the meaning of the imagery. Her hands touch the tree (of life?) as she dances across the skulls - overcoming death and decay. When you think of where The World comes, right after Judgement, we can see this as a Danse Macabre that's actually transcended the grave - she's untouched by it.
Ahhh ... thanks for the explanation. I find with these images (and with those of the Victorian Romantic) some ambiguity which makes for interesting interpretation. When I looked at the card I didn't really see her as dancing. I saw a figure holding precariously to the tree for balance as she prepared to cross the stepping stones, or skulls.

But armed with your explanation I see it in not quite so grim a light ;) It's why your books are invaluable with your decks :D

It's not melancholy enough for a Six of Swords, I'll grant you!

shadowdancer

10-06-2007, 07:54

Yep will certainly lead me as a reader to think outside of the box so to speak.

I can see it also having other meanings - as she makes her way to a new life on the other side, is she acknowledging that her old life is now beneath her, ready to be washed over when the river level rises?

Is she now acknowledging that as death is part of the cycle of life, she can eventually let go of the comfort of the tree and let that knowledge transport her to where she wants to be?

So many ways of seeing this card - will be interesting to see how it comes out in readings, and in what context, card positione etc

Davina

baba-prague

10-06-2007, 07:59

I have to say that the interpretations of these cards are stretching us a lot. Because fundamentally the deck is Gothic, and very much about death and horror Yet it needs its optimistic, hopeful side too - we need to find a balance while keeping the deck very dark overall. I think the cards will be eloquent and challenging in readings - or so I hope. I very much want it to read on a subliminal and subconscious level too - to leave some shadows, implications and "after images" when a reading has offiicially finished. I actually hope that the deck invites in nightmares - but the kind of nightmares that are beautiful and revealing as well as horrifying. Hmm - is that hoping for too much?

Ever so demanding to make this one. Fascinating, but tiring too.

Embla

10-06-2007, 08:35

Thank you for sharing that picture, Karen. It channeled itself straight into my chest and made me want to cry. The sadness, tears and the lump are linked to a feeling of relief though, of realizing that the struggle is over, now the skulls can be used as stepping stones. I get a feeling of accomplishment, and of seeing the light at the end of the tunnel, the possibility of new beginnings opening up, and the hope for a new paradise-world awaiting on the other side of the river. I get a feeling of solitude, calm and fresh air, strong belief in oneself. Like the song; "And I think to myself, what a wonderful world..." that anybody who has ever been in intense existential pain can relate to with deep recognition.

HearthCricket

10-06-2007, 08:51

I love the World Card! The ethereal dress is perfect, the way her arms are stretched out and holding the branches lightly reminds me of traditional World cards, and I love the way she is just skipping on death, very nonchalantly, overcoming death and fear and anxiety. Her face is so serene and she looks so powerful, yet so gentle in her manner. Lovely, lovely card! Love the pale foot with slightly pointed toe, showing her ease over these matters! You can tell she won't be getting her feet wet!!

Scion

10-06-2007, 09:12

I, too, love this World card for the BG. Especially the diagonal seam that connects the skull and the luminous sky with her as the conduit...

There's something about chaos arrested, as if the entire setting is vibrating and swirling and she is distilling the turbulence into something patterned, with intention.

I dig it. :thumbsup:

Sulis

10-06-2007, 10:17

I dig it too :)

I like the way the third stepping stone looks like a face.

a_shikhs

10-06-2007, 10:18

I have no words to say except a huge WOWWW!!!! Its a gorgeous World. :)

baba-prague

10-06-2007, 10:35

I dig it too :)

I like the way the third stepping stone looks like a face.

Thank-you. Most of the stones are skulls - or have skulls incorporated into them. But it's subtle and also this image is a little small. One thing we are struggling with in the deck is how subtle or stated to make the graphics. In this card I do want people to realise that she is stepping on skulls, but I don't want it to be immediately obvious.

Alex is a great one for doing this in a very under-stated way, but it does mean that there are details in most of our decks that I don't think anyone has ever noticed!

Scion

10-06-2007, 11:33

Which is why they read so damn well! :)

Little Baron

11-06-2007, 06:18

Just managed to open that image of The World. Not what I was expecting at all. Colours are lovely. Really nice image. Like it's subtlety.

LB

Jewel

11-06-2007, 09:26

You know Karen, your comment of expressing the postive cards in a gothic themed deck really struck me. If we look at the world of this deck as a gothic world in and of itself, then "positive" takes on a meaning of being "lighter" in darkness than other cards yet still dark ... does this make sense?

This is what I imagine this deck doing. Your world card does a great job of capturing this feeling. I mean tredding on skulls is an icky idea, but there is freedom on the other side, there is the beauty of the landscape and her connectedness to it all including the tree ... but the skulls are real and are there.

baba-prague

11-06-2007, 09:42

I'll be very interested to see what people here think of our Sun card (it's sketched out but not yet ready to show). I know that other Gothic decks have used a vampire being destroyed by the sun, and in a way, yes, that's the obvious image. But can you really see it as positive and a moment of clarification? (maybe, if you think that the vampire's soul will go straight to heaven, but that's the only way I could imagine it being interpreted as positive). Our Sun is weirder and happier and much more obviously about seeing things with a fresh eye. So - we'll see the reaction soon I hope.

Jewel

11-06-2007, 09:49

I know that other Gothic decks have used a vampire being destroyed by the sun, and in a way, yes, that's the obvious image. But can you really see it as positive and a moment of clarification? (maybe, if you think that the vampire's soul will go straight to heaven, but that's the only way I could imagine it being interpreted as positive).
Well actually if you are prey to the vampire (or vampire within) having the vampire destroyed is very joyous. It would signal a time when brighter things rule and the darkerones are obliterated. This can be a very empowering notion. Now if you are the vampire well then I guess that would not be such a good day *LOL*.

I look forward to seeing your depiction of the Sun card.

tarot4fun

11-06-2007, 09:57

Hi baba-prague, Love your World card ~ LOVE it!!! :heart:
I can't wait for this deck to be finished! :D

Emily

11-06-2007, 10:05

I love the surreal quality of the cards - all dark and dreamy - just as a Gothic deck should be. :)

baba-prague

11-06-2007, 10:15

Well actually if you are prey to the vampire (or vampire within) having the vampire destroyed is very joyous. It would signal a time when brighter things rule and the darkerones are obliterated. This can be a very empowering notion. Now if you are the vampire well then I guess that would not be such a good day *LOL*.

I look forward to seeing your depiction of the Sun card.

Yes, and I agree with you. But fundamentally it seems to me a violent moment. Which is not how I think of The Sun. But isn't it interesting how you have to rethink such things for a Gothic deck? I'm finding it fascinating - and quite difficult.

baba-prague

11-06-2007, 13:50

I think of our Four of Pentacles rather like this. By the way, NOT finished - you can see all the vagueness in some of the drawing on one shoulder for instance - which gives you an idea of the amount of work we often have to do on these old photos to get a clear image.

Her face needs work too - in general please regards this as work-in-progress.

baba-prague

11-06-2007, 13:51

Embla

11-06-2007, 14:25

Wonderful. Thanks for sharing. The queen who watches over her material possessions even at night, sleeping with her jewelery on, paranoid that she might lose her privileges, not realizing that after all these years, the enemy was inside her all along and now, ironically, she herself has become a demon that other people fear.

baba-prague

11-06-2007, 14:32

shadowdancer

11-06-2007, 15:00

Karen, it would be an absolute delight to see how you come to your cards if you do ever include this in any forthcoming book. I think it will help us appreciate exactly what you and Alex go through with each project, and might calm us down a little when we start to clammer for the next release :D

As an aside, (and this might be just me) but my first thought was that it was a bloke in drag. Please do not take this as a criticism - it was just my first thought in that initial nano-second of looking at the card.

Obviously I have mused a bit more since! :D

take care

Davina

baba-prague

11-06-2007, 16:11

As an aside, (and this might be just me) but my first thought was that it was a bloke in drag. Please do not take this as a criticism - it was just my first thought in that initial nano-second of looking at the card.

No, that's fine, as that thought has crossed my mind too. In fact I think it IS a woman, but I rather like the ambiguity. We are emphasising the rather camp-over-dressed side of this figure. And isn't it rather Gothic that one can't be quite sure?

HearthCricket

11-06-2007, 16:21

No, that's fine, as that thought has crossed my mind too. In fact I think it IS a woman, but I rather like the ambiguity. We are emphasising the rather camp-over-dressed side of this figure. And isn't it rather Gothic that one can't be quite sure?

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. This reminds me of a drag queen, overdoing on everything female to reach their goal, and therefore standing out in the crowd. She certainly does look like she has been up at night obsessing over her material things, rather than caring for her looks! I just want to pluck those eyebrows! She makes me feel uncomfortable, which is so gothic!

I keep thinking of the movie Titanic, when Jack describes his drawing of a woman he named "Madame Bijou" who wore all her jewelry wherever she went. She also has that masculine Queen of Hearts (Alice in Wonderland) look to her, as though if you touched or stole one of her jewels it would be off with your head!

Edited to add: Now if she were dressed in old bridal attire and inside, what a perfect Miss Haversham she would make, though maybe a bit to healthy looking. I suppose Miss Haversham would be more frail (though I love the cane!)

Jewel

11-06-2007, 16:23

*ROFLMAO* what a crotchety old woman! ~giggles~ She is perfect! The look in her eyes and all those jewels ~wipes tears from eyes~. I really like this card! This works for me.

jackdaw*

11-06-2007, 17:17

*Insert hoot of laughter here*

What a great card! It literally did make me laugh out loud when I saw it. Just on that fine edge of campy ...

6 Haunted Days

11-06-2007, 17:33

I viewed the World card late last night before going to bed and didn't have time to reply. But WOW. I was stunned by it's beauty and energy. It's the best so far. I love how you're going softer as you say. I am so excited about this deck! And also glad you're holding back on showing the whole process, I want to be surprised and enthralled when I see the deck for the 1st time.

And I absolutely love the direction your going with the 4 of Pentacles. Bette Davis is my complete idol, so anything remotely to do with her.....yay!

annik

12-06-2007, 12:26

Oh! Very delightful! The face look a bit strange but it makes an interesting constrast with the rest of the card

rissa

12-06-2007, 14:54

That 9 of S is PERFECT...

Satori

12-06-2007, 15:01

I think of our Four of Pentacles rather like this. I know she does not look like Bette Davis - but something about the general atmosphere.

By the way, NOT finished. You can see all the vagueness in some of the drawing - on one shoulder for instance - which gives you an idea of the amount of work we often have to do on these old photos to get a clear image. I must put a "how we make an image" section in the book this time I think - I keep meaning to do that in our companion books.

Her face needs work too - in general please regard this as work-in-progress.

I just had the SHOCK of my life.
That person's features are so close to my actual grandmother that I am now totally spooked. They could be sisters, as in identical twins.

My grandmother's eyes are shaped slightly different, but I have to tell you this is an uncannily close resemblance. I will find a photo to send to you baba, but you will flip out when you see it, I promise.

Furthermore Bette Davis was my grandmother's favorite actress!

:bugeyed:

baba-prague

12-06-2007, 15:27

Goodness! Well, I'm not sure what to say, but here is an update (still needs a few tweaks - bit of fuzziness still around the shoulder - but mostly there now).

Did she have a beauty spot? And did she wear a lot of jewellery? Maybe I shouldn't ask, but just interested now!

tarot4fun

12-06-2007, 15:42

That right eye wide open, eyebrow arched - nothing gets past her!
The left eye is a little squinted - I don't even want to know what that woman is thinking!

Great 4 of Pents!

Suz :heart:

HearthCricket

12-06-2007, 15:44

I stil say she has an Adam's apple under that necklace! She reminds me of this character from Nicholas Nickleby (who was a man playing a woman).

baba-prague

12-06-2007, 15:57

I stil say she has an Adam's apple under that necklace! She reminds me of this character from Nicholas Nickleby (who was a man playing a woman).
Ooo! There is a distinct resemblance isn't there? Though now I feel we may be being unintentionallly rude to Satori's grandmother.

baba-prague

12-06-2007, 15:59

That right eye wide open, eyebrow arched - nothing gets past her!
The left eye is a little squinted - I don't even want to know what that woman is thinking!

Great 4 of Pents!

Suz :heart:
Thanks. Yes, I feel that if you made one move towards those pearls (even to ask to borrow them) she wouldn't think twice about using the cane! No way is she ever going to part with anything she owns.

Sidhe-Ra

12-06-2007, 16:06

GREAT image! I'm going to save my pennies for the shiny version of this one :)

Blessings,

Em xx

baba-prague

12-06-2007, 16:23

Thanks Em. I think the Silver will be good. We are trying to work out a way of including a bag with it too. Anyway...

Working on Justice now which has somehow become a really grim card. But the Majors do need to be quite emotionally challenging in this deck - we can have a bit more fun with the Minors.

Mariana

12-06-2007, 17:24

We are trying to work out a way of including a bag with it too. Anyway...

That would be lovely. I've just calculated that the Victorian Romantic gold edition + companion book + bag would be around 80€. As far as you can tell at this stage, would the Bohemian Gothic silver edition + book + bag combination be around the same price, do you think? I figure that if I treat myself to something luxurious, I'd better do it well...

Satori

12-06-2007, 18:09

Ooo! There is a distinct resemblance isn't there? Though now I feel we may be being unintentionallly rude to Satori's grandmother.

baba, you would never be rude towards me or my kin, no worries there. My grandmother had a very large nose, just like the lady in the picture, and she was French Canadian. She was a natural brunette, but in her later years dyed her hair blond. She loved to dress up and had lots of jewelry.

HearthCricket

12-06-2007, 18:21

Oh, I certainly hope I did not insult anyone with that comment. This actor is amazing. He has won many awards for his outstanding performances and ability to "fool" the audience into believing his characters are quite real. It took years for me to finally research the Nicholas Nickleby character to try and figure out if it was a male or female. (my own grandmother had quite her own masculine features!) And was amazed to see how far he had gone in creating this particular character. Rather like Miranda Richardson's performance as Queen Elizabeth I in the Black Adder acts (if that is the correct one). Anyhow...I stray...

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0402032/

ray of light

12-06-2007, 20:38

I was JUST looking at this deck! :D Fantastic colors and the few cards I've seen are amazing. This is going straight to my wish list. I really hope to see a matching bag, either sold together or separately.

nicki

13-06-2007, 04:03

The 4 of Pentacles is fab, totally camp and brilliant and I had to do a double take cause I thought it was a man at first, she reminds me of a old lady that lived next to my grandmother, she never missed a thing, even if you stepped on the edge of her grass she would rap the window at you and shake her fist.

nicki

baba-prague

13-06-2007, 09:07

That would be lovely. I've just calculated that the Victorian Romantic gold edition + companion book + bag would be around 80€. As far as you can tell at this stage, would the Bohemian Gothic silver edition + book + bag combination be around the same price, do you think? I figure that if I treat myself to something luxurious, I'd better do it well...

Yes, I think it will be about the same - still working it all out! We may do the bag a different way, in which case it will perhaps be a little less. I definitely do want the deck and book to feel luxurious - and also special.

annik

13-06-2007, 10:21

Yes, I think it will be about the same - still working it all out! We may do the bag a different way, in which case it will perhaps be a little less. I definitely do want the deck and book to feel luxurious - and also special.

Oh! My! And I thought the silver edition was already a treat! *drooling* I am a fan of silver things! Can you guess I am already sold to this deck?! lol!

baba-prague

14-06-2007, 09:09

HearthCricket

14-06-2007, 09:16

baba-prague

14-06-2007, 10:25

Yes, they are SO very chirpy aren't they? I do wonder whose grave it is - and just how that person met their end.

Innocence?

annik

14-06-2007, 10:40

They are so doll-like! I like very much the composition of the card!

Sidhe-Ra

14-06-2007, 11:33

Another great card! (Thank goodness they're not twins, that would have been TOO freaky...)

Blessings,

Em xx

tarot4fun

14-06-2007, 11:36

:heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:

At first glance the little girl is innocence and the older brother is protection. Then I notice a darkness about her, a hollow look in her eyes - something has happened to this sweet child. The brother has a hard look on that handsome little face - “I’ll never be a victim again, not if I can help it … nor my sister either.”
Kind of like Scarlet O’Hara in Gone With the Wind; “If I have to lie, steal, cheat or kill. As God is my witness, …”

Blessings~
Suz

baba-prague

14-06-2007, 11:58

Another great card! (Thank goodness they're not twins, that would have been TOO freaky...)

Blessings,

Em xx

I have a photo of twins too, but I'm not sure we will use it - as you say, very freaky - but we might. This deck is SO absorbing

baba-prague

14-06-2007, 12:00

innocence[/i] and the older brother is protection. Then I notice a darkness about her, a hollow look in her eyes - something has happened to this sweet child.

Yes, I thought that too. She has an amazingly hard look.

Edited to add. Well, she is sweet, but hard, but hard, but sweet. I think that's one of the key reasons this is a disturbing image. I was thinking "children of the corn" some of the time when we were making it.

baba-prague

14-06-2007, 12:38

By the way, I also think that it's hard to know the gender of the "boy" - I think it IS a boy, Alex thinks it's a girl. Again, I think that leaves an interesting ambiguity.

Oh goodness. Just saw that that makes 4000 posts. That seems A LOT! It's also a slight shock as I hadn't even looked until that caught my eye.

Sidhe-Ra

14-06-2007, 12:41

Hooray! Congrats on 4000 posts- (yes that IS an AWFUL lot! How DO you get all that work done, the amount of time you must spend on here! :D)

Em xx

tarot4fun

14-06-2007, 12:44

By the way, I also think that it's hard to know the gender of the "boy" - I think it IS a boy, Alex thinks it's a girl. Again, I think that leaves an interesting ambiguity.
Oh My! Alex could be right. It made me think of how a girl becomes 'boyish' to ward off predators.
Suz
ps- 4000 congrats!

Embla

14-06-2007, 12:47

baba-prague

14-06-2007, 12:49

Hooray! Congrats on 4000 posts- (yes that IS an AWFUL lot! How DO you get all that work done, the amount of time you must spend on here! :D)

Em xx

LOL! Well, I got up to 2000 very quickly then slowed down (and quietened down) a lot I have to admit. But this made me look and realise I joined four and a half years ago. Time flies!

6 Haunted Days

14-06-2007, 12:51

baba-prague

14-06-2007, 12:53

You are so good at creating skies! There is a 3D effect that is hypnotizing to this card. As for the more etheral qualities, I get so much pure love and pure pain from all the cards I have seen so far. I find that they also provide consolation that is easy connect to in the middle of all the darkness, the light at the end of the tunnel in the World-card, the Virgin Mary in the 6 of Cups. I understand that they must be very challenging to work with, and that they require nothing but brutal honesty and truthfulness from you.

Alex has a huge personal image library of skies - helped by the fact that we live so high up in an attic.

The deck was very, very hard to work on at first. I thought (we both thought) that it would be too dark and "nasty". But so far it does have a definite lightness hovering around it too. There is also a strange relief in finally seeing it emerge - we've been thinking about this deck since 2003 and it's tended to slightly worry me. Now I can just get on with it!

baba-prague

14-06-2007, 12:58

You know what this card reminded me of right off? Hannibal Rising (if you haven't seen it it's about Hannibal Lecter and why/how he became what he was. Reminded me of him and his sister Mischa, if you've seen this movie you will know what I mean! (GREAT movie btw, thought it was another crappy prequel, but it was excellent, very psychological).

I LOVE this card!!

Thank-you. And no, I haven't seen it. There is another story too (oh yes, got it, Carnivale!) in which a young boy and his sister start to get drawn into darkness.

I think in a reading this might be a very powerful card to begin to work with.

RubyV

14-06-2007, 13:34

It's a lovely card, ambiguous and creepy.

They remind me of the Buffy Episode "Gingerbread" where hansel and gretel are evil.

http://www.buffyguide.com/episodes/gingerbread/gingerbreadsyn.shtml

evelone

14-06-2007, 15:27

Wow! what a great card. I shivered when it came up. To me the children look like ghosts, standing over a grave. Something you might see for minute, and then when you look back again, is gone.

Jewel

14-06-2007, 15:34

I love it!!! Do you know what it reminds me of? Hansel and Gretel, looking all sweet and nostalgic, decorating a grave, but whose grave exactly is it? someone they loved, or someone they destroyed? Could the wicked witch be under there? Yes, it has a very wicked Turn of the Screw feel about it! Nicely done and it sends shivers! The moody sky and possible dusk approaching makes you wonder why such young children are visiting a grave at this time of day...to be unnoticed, perhaps? The white wreath portrays innocence, but I am not convinced!
Yeah! What HearthCricket said!!! the kids alone in a graveyard, seems like a place they frequent (or haunt) regularly ... makes me think of ghost stories when people see ghosts of children in haunted houses and stuff. In this case the haunted graveyard.

Karen this deck is shapping so beautifully. I think it is capturing the essence you are wanting it to have. It is beautiful, it is creepy, it is tempting. I think a lot of it has to do with the facial expressions on the characters. They seem so alive that you can see them moving. Very aptly the VR's Dark Sister.

Now about the bags ... I still want a Vampuss bag for this deck, you know the image of him crawling down the tower ... ~runs before Karen flogs me~.

baba-prague

14-06-2007, 15:39

Yeah! What HearthCricket said!!! the kids alone in a graveyard, seems like a place they frequent (or haunt) regularly ... makes me think of ghost stories when people see ghosts of children in haunted houses and stuff. In this case the haunted graveyard.

Now about the bags ... I still want a Vampuss bag for this deck, you know the image of him crawling down the tower ... ~runs before Karen flogs me~.

ARGH! Full marks for not giving up :joke: IF there seem to be at least twelve people who would buy such a bag then we will try to do one for Halloween - we really need to sell about twenty of them to cover the time in "setting up" the image.

However, I think you may be the only AT-er who wants one? On the other hand, right now anything that remotely has one of our cats on it seems to be big (by our standards) in Korea and Japan so there may be a way (one bag to Jewel, all the others to Tokyo? Sounds a little odd to me!)

evelone

14-06-2007, 16:13

I really love the Vampuss images. I would buy the deck, the bag, the Vampuss Meets Kittenstein sequel, the T shirt, the lunchpail, the whatever!

More Vampuss!

Mariana

14-06-2007, 16:23

ARGH! Full marks for not giving up :joke: IF there seem to be at least twelve people who would buy such a bag then we will try to do one for Halloween - we really need to sell about twenty of them to cover the time in "setting up" the image.

However, I think you may be the only AT-er who wants one? On the other hand, right now anything that remotely has one of our cats on it seems to be big (by our standards) in Korea and Japan so there may be a way (one bag to Jewel, all the others to Tokyo? Sounds a little odd to me!)

A Vampuss bag would be a great idea! Only then I would want to have a deck to go with it, of course. A dark sister to the Baroque Bohemian Cats - the Bohemian Vampuss Tarot? Published in 2008? Please? :D (But do take a break in between...)

baba-prague

14-06-2007, 16:33

I really love the Vampuss images. I would buy the deck, the bag, the Vampuss Meets Kittenstein sequel, the T shirt, the lunchpail, the whatever!

More Vampuss!

the Vampuss Meets Kittenstein ???

That's a rather wonderful idea actually :)

By the way, we just MAY be doing an animation. The most wonderful animator who we immediately clicked with walked into the studio a while back. We will see. It will only be VERY short (2 or 3 minutes - animation is expensive unfortunately) if we do do it - but I so much want to.

The lunchpail will have to wait though :joke:

jackdaw*

14-06-2007, 18:17

What a creepy, chilling, Six of Cups. I think that catches the essence of the deck right there!

Satori

14-06-2007, 21:43

For me - this works! I find it creepy, quirky, disturbing, pretty - all the things I'd like the deck to be (well, I want the deck to be beautiful and "shifting" too, but we'll see). There is something very interesting about the way in which children can actually be frightening in the Gothic (remember The Turn of the Screw - not to mention The Shining). We've tried to capture some of that.

I am actually wondering whether to try it out as a print too - maybe just because I want an excuse to do a good-sized giclee of it!

I know it's an unusual card - it's based on one of the rather morbid postcards that were popular in Germany around the turn of the last century. Anyway, just want to show it.

It reminds me a bit of the scene in Schindler's List where the lovely little girl goes marching through the world of devastation in her little red coat...untouched by all of the sordid, murderous evil around her. Innocent attired in red, the only color and life in a world of blood chilling terror...and still later, even in death, the splash of red atop the pile of bodies.

I remember sobbing and sobbing and sobbing watching that entire part of the movie...so moved and so aware of the beauty of the manipulation being visited upon me.

When I see this card I am there again. So there is a sense of something beyond the setting this jolly pair finds themselves in.

Also, back in '81-82 I spent a year in Finland studying music.
My parents traveled to Finland with me toward the end of the summer and we spent a whirlwind 10 days visiting my mom's various relatives and cousins; people she had heard of or who had heard of her, and who we would probably never see again. The big surprise for all of us, me and my parents that is, was the obligatory trip to the cemetary we made with almost every one of the cousins or aunties. We would arrive at the house, be served tea and cakes, then we were promptly whisked off to the cemetary for a photo shoot with my mother's deceased relatives. It was entirely unexpected.

The other surprise was the photo of the deceased one on the head stone, or should I say, embedded somehow into the stone, with it's own little frame.

So this card brings all of these things up for me. It is truly richly lovely.

I think the thing I love the most about yours and alex's work is the quirky, unexpected trip into some kind of dysfunction or bizarre taste of real life! The cards isolate what it means to be a human being with a life, and yet the flavor of that life having passed is very real here.

There is a sense of nostalgia and it borders on mournful. I think melancholic wouldn't be the right word, it would be too cliche and the images I have seen while in the neighborhood, are not cliche...I don't know what the proper word would be. But the feeling of a time gone by, and yet ever so vibrantly alive sort of fills the 'borders' of the cards with flavor.

Each card offers a definite emotional experience right alongside the visual bouquet. One triggers the other in fact and the ultimate experience which awaits all of us when the deck is completed is certainly going to be cathartic.

I didn't set out to be another gushing fan in this thread baba, but here I am once again standing by in awe wondering how you managed to top the Vicky Roma! I love the images I have seen so far. Amazing work.

shadowdancer

18-06-2007, 15:51

just caught site of the Strength card on the Baba Prague journal. Now that is a really nice card indeed!!!

Talk about the "don't mess with me" look. She has it in spades.

This deck is coming on nicely

Davina

Mariana

18-06-2007, 16:06

just caught site of the Strength card on the Baba Prague journal.

It seems 'darker' than most of the other cards we've seen so far?

I mean, cards like the 2 of cups, 6 of cups and the world seemed to have a light side as well, more like sweet with a very dark edge. The darkness is only implied, so the cards leave you guessing a bit.

This card just seems dark, no guessing needed. Especially her face and the wings.

There are already a few vampire deck out there. What I really liked about this deck, so far, is the tongue in cheek humor when it comes to light and dark, the subtlety...

Just my first impression.

HearthCricket

18-06-2007, 16:11

Oh, the Strength card is excellent. At first I thought her eyes were closed, but now I see they are looking up at us. Yikes! That vampire woman is teaching us a lesson about inner strength, isn't she? Beautiful card! I just get goosebumps seeing these images and I am still being haunted by "Hansel and Gretel"! Karen and Alex, I can only imagine the dreams you have been having lately, while working on this deck and being saturated in these images!

Sidhe-Ra

19-06-2007, 03:21

Strength is WONDERFUL- I adore it! This deck is not so much on my wish list as my 'Must have the second it comes out' list!

Blessings,

Em xx

baba-prague

19-06-2007, 04:00

It seems 'darker' than most of the other cards we've seen so far?

Some of the cards are very dark indeed, others, like the World card, can almost be read as the calm after the storm. Others, like the Moon, and I think the Six of Cups, are all about insinuation rather than statement (hmm, I seem to keep saying that about the deck, well, maybe it's central in my mind). I think The Fool really does look like - a fool - in contrast to many of the other cards. He IS the outsider in a way.

What I didn't want is for every card to show an obvious vampire or ghost or something - even in a Gothic deck I think there needs to be light and shade for it to read well - victims and innocents as well as predators and devils. Or perhaps I mean it should show dusk and dawn as well as darkest night?

baba-prague

19-06-2007, 05:21

Each card offers a definite emotional experience right alongside the visual bouquet. One triggers the other in fact and the ultimate experience which awaits all of us when the deck is completed is certainly going to be cathartic.

You say many interesting things in your post, but this one particularly I want to respond to as I think it's hits on something important about the way we work - and are.

Alex and I are both from notoriously emotional cultures - Irish and Russian - and I think this shows in much of our work. It's certainly what drew us together (you would not believe the drama, melodrama and sheer passion and fun of our early relationship). We were both previously locked into doing "cool" corporate work before (endless white space or super-saturated colour, sans serif fonts or funky fonts, big photos of suitably pretty people - you've all seen it endlessly in corporate advertising) most of which I found cold and calculating, and not "cool" at all. To be able to work with narrative, emotion, colour, reference, symbols, history, all those things, has been wonderful. We use emotion so much that we often teeter along the edge between kitsch and real innovation and I love that sense of danger artistically. Like you, by the way, I watch Schindler's List and know the ways in which I am being emotionally manipulated - Spielberg's particular genius - but I still weep.

I recently heard Grayson Perry (Turner prize winner and described by himself as the "transvestite potter") advise that artistically, you should always take 'the line of most resistance" - in other words the path that will NOT be supported and that will be dangerously close to getting you laughed at. I think that's what we often try to do - certainly that's what was happening with the BBCats (and I think now with Bohemian Gothic - I mean, Gothic can be REALLY kitschy, can't it?).

I think that's why the decks can pack a lot of emotional "shift" and challenge. They are trying to do something that I think classic fantasy illustration often misses. When we get it right it can be quite powerful - but we don't always. Which is part of the point.

Anyway, I hope that's a response worthy of your very interesting post - it's just how I can best describe what we're doing right now.

And I suppose that's as close as I've ever got here to making a serious artistic 'statement". Gosh ;)

6 Haunted Days

19-06-2007, 07:29

I saw that Strenght card last night. I was on myspace and it said I had a new comment, so I was not expecting that card!

It blew me away with it's powerful presence and just oozed something very indefinable. The woman has the most piercing intent gaze, reminded me of Theda Bara. This deck is going along so wonderfully and powerfully that I get more and more excited with each passing day! I better pace myself.

I most certainly see what you mean about walking that fine line with this deck in particular and your others. In my opinion though, you've produced some of the absolute most intuitive, sublime and so deeply thought out decks that have ever been made. I have abandoned all my decks save my Victorian Romantic (:love::love::love:) and the most recent addition last week of the Fairytale (:love:with oddles of bunches of awe at the connections:love:) and have no idea when I want to pick up and use any other! Perhaps not until the Gothic comes out, what a happy day.

I really love your ideas that the whole deck doesn't need to be all ghosts, vampires and darkness. All gothic lit after all has it's innocence, purity and light. Look at the first gothic herione Emily St. Aubert, she's just as naive and pure as they come. You need the balance to get the full effect of the supernatural horror, the sublime terror that creeps.

There is a line in Udolpho... "Beauty Sleeping in the Lap of Horror". I believe that is going to describe this deck perfectly. I've always loved that phrase since I first read so many eons ago, it's my "signature" in more ways that just on here!

"Fate sits on these dark battlements, and frowns,
And, as the portals open to receive me,
Her voice, in sullen echoes through the courts,
Tells of a nameless deed."

baba-prague

19-06-2007, 08:36

"Beauty sitting in the lap of horror" is wonderful - if you don't mind I think that may find its way into the book.

One thing I've been trying to keep in my mind is the image of the cards spread out in a reading, and yes, I want a "beautiful" card sometimes to fall next to a more obviously horrific one. There are stories packed into these cards - not so much one story per card (we have tried to avoid that) but generic/archetypal gothic themes and references.

I think I ought to show The Justice card at this point - it is open to different interpretations (and is actually arguably historically anachronistic - which I think in this deck can work). Above all it IS horrific though - and even ugly in a way.

Here it is. For contrast I'll also upload Strength, for those who have not seen her:

teomat

19-06-2007, 09:14

Wow! That Strength card is amazing!

I love the way you put in splashes of colour on what are largely dark and gloomy backgrounds. It reminds me a little of the film Sleepy Hollow (by Tim Burton), where everything is a pale, gloomy, washed-out colour - except for any blood which is a marvellously vivid red!

Having said that (and contradicting myself here! :D), I would love to see a monochrome version of the deck. It'd remind me of all those early black-and-white horror films I used to love.

baba-prague

19-06-2007, 09:36

Having said that (and contradicting myself here! :D), I would love to see a monochrome version of the deck. It'd remind me of all those early black-and-white horror films I used to love.

Interesting idea, but I feel that the colour we do use (which is very muted) is important to the meaning. We have used red in particular to indicate violence in many cards.

ps any comparison with Tim Burton is fine by us! :)

HearthCricket

19-06-2007, 10:09

Ah, Tim Burton and Sleepy Hollow. A favourite of mine! Justice does remind me of that minister father of Ichabod, who was quite creepy. But what book is that? I am not familiar with it, though I am guessing it has a very dark side to it! The other person is pleasantly creeping me out!

I was looking at Strength, again. That card positively hypnotizes me! I was noticing the lion on the door of the tomb and loved the idea that this vampire lady "resurrected strength", if you get my meaning. I am really thirsting for this deck! How you both keep outdoing yourself is beyond me!

Sidhe-Ra

19-06-2007, 10:13

That is not only the scariest Justice card I have EVER seen by a long way, but probably in the top ten scariest cards, if not images ever! Yeesh. I would NOT want to be taking a holiday in YOUR imagination at the moment! Chilling.

The thing that makes these images so precious in a tarot is that they provoke an instant reaction, and then draw you into the detail. Truly brilliant. In fact I'm going to go and get my VR gold out and stroke it...

Blessings,

Em xx

baba-prague

19-06-2007, 10:17

But what book is that? I am not familiar with it, though I am guessing it has a very dark side to it! The other person is pleasantly creeping me out!

The book is the notorious Malleus Maleficarum (the Hammer of the Witches) which was more or less used as a handbook during the witch hunts. It gives horrific "advice" on how to try witches - and it strongly advocates torture.

http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/

It is a very disturbing read needless to say.

Sulis

19-06-2007, 10:19

Excellent card Karen - Strength is just gorgeous - the lion and the vampire just ooze danger :)

But what book is that? I am not familiar with it, though I am guessing it has a very dark side to it! The other person is pleasantly creeping me out!
I reckon that would be the 'Malleus Maleficarum' or 'Hammer of the Witches'.
It's the book that taught the inquisitors how to recognise a witch: http://altreligion.about.com/library/texts/bl_malleus.htm

edited to say - Oops it looks as if we were posting at the same time Baba :)

baba-prague

19-06-2007, 10:24

Excellent card Karen - Strength is just gorgeous - the lion and the vampire just ooze danger :)

I reckon that would be the 'Malleus Maleficarum' or 'Hammer of the Witches'.
It's the book that taught the inquisitors how to recognise a witch: http://altreligion.about.com/library/texts/bl_malleus.htm

edited to say - Oops it looks as if we were posting at the same time Baba :)

Interesting that you see the woman on Strength as a vampire - I see her as a demon. But that's exactly what we want, for the cards to leave some space for interpretation. Talking to someone here about Justice, he saw the figure in the background as another inquisitor, whereas to me she (note the gender change too!) is the phantom of a dead witch. But neither of us is "right" - these images are, as I say, intentionally quite open.

Yes, well spotted on Malleus - it's a book that really terrifies me so I suppose this is one way for me to get it out of my head. A dear friend used to say to me years ago that she and I would both have been burned if we'd live 400-500 years earlier.

baba-prague

19-06-2007, 10:30

That is not only the scariest Justice card I have EVER seen by a long way, but probably in the top ten scariest cards, if not images ever! Yeesh. I would NOT want to be taking a holiday in YOUR imagination at the moment! Chilling.

I have to admit to having a really horrible nightmare last night - but I suppose that's inevitably going to happen.

HearthCricket

19-06-2007, 11:05

The book is the notorious Malleus Maleficarum (the Hammer of the Witches) which was more or less used as a handbook during the witch hunts. It gives horrific "advice" on how to try witches - and it strongly advocates torture.

http://www.malleusmaleficarum.org/

It is a very disturbing read needless to say.

Thank you, Baba and Sulis! Well, then, now this really speaks volumes to me and reminds me of that scene in Sleepy Hollow. I love being able to make connections and how each person sees something different in each card.

tarot4fun

19-06-2007, 11:10

Strength - is really interesting! A++ :heart:

Justice - oh man~ :eek:
Is that fire in the background through the doors?

Suz

Emily

19-06-2007, 11:41

In the doorway behind the Judge, is that a dark face, open mouth screaming? Or is my imagination working overtime again?

I love the Strength card - the lion and demon/vampire together really match and look amazing. :)

Sidhe-Ra

19-06-2007, 11:57

It's strange how the judge's eyes are different colours- is there a reason for that?

xx

baba-prague

19-06-2007, 12:42

I asked Alex. He says that one eye symbolises honesty and the other eye is a "fox's eye" - symbolising cheating. He says that you won't be able to see this except under a magnifying glass on the final card. Alex puts in quite a lot of these tiny details himself and even I don't know all of them!

ps - he has been sitting until two in the morning doing this deck, so I usually flake out around midnight and miss bits.

Good sharp observation Em!

Melvis

19-06-2007, 18:55

Oh my gosh! I've been following this thread since the beginning, eagerly soaking up each delicious card as it's shown...and then comes Strength! Holy cow! I'm in love with it! Particularly since I'm a Leo so I always have an affinity for the Strength card in any deck.

But what I'm really excited about is that I've been looking for a costume for the WATTS conference in Wisconsin in July, and I think I've just found it in this Strength card! It's so perfect! And - I'll admit it - easy to create! I was going to dress as the Empress from the Victorian Romantic but I'm a seriously horrible seamstress so I gave up on that idea.

Yay! All I need is a red dress (my favorite color, of course), wings, lion (I suppose I'll have to go with a stuffed one ;)), and chain! Hmm...how to do the fog...

Thanks, Karen and Alex, for such great costume inspirations, in addition to a great deck that I'm really looking forward to getting! :D

Peace,

Melvis
:TSTRE

jackdaw*

19-06-2007, 20:20

I love the sexy Strength card. And Justice - brr! Chilling.

la-luna

20-06-2007, 06:46

I've been away for only two weeks and come back to discover all those wonderful new cards .
the deck is really getting form ( and a nice form it is ) haunting dark and inspiring - my anticipation is growing.

Karen you have a winner here and in it's genre it will surely be one of the best selling decks.

nicki

20-06-2007, 07:14

You cant take your eyes off this thread or you miss something, I dont think I have disliked one card and the sleepy hollow comparisons are spot on, one of my fav films. I dont think i have ever looked forward to a deck this much.

nicki

baba-prague

20-06-2007, 07:48

We spent quite a time this morning doing the sketches for the final cards (STILL don't have a Hanged Man, but that's always a hard one). We have a great Queen of Cups and Queen of Wands in my opinion (both quite unsettling but in entirely different ways). All we need now is to get the cards from sketch to final - which sadly tends to take at least a day.

The Death card definitely rivals Justice in terms of sheer scariness (we did it between midnight and one last night - we had most of the elements, but just needed to work on them).

I will probably post some single cards and then, when I can, a whole batch. By the way the early cards you saw have nearly all changed a bit, so I will also repost those at some point.

Oh - and the Wheel of Fortune is one I'm very, very pleased with, so I look forward to showing that off when the time comes.

Roll on dark autumn nights.

Mariana

20-06-2007, 08:57

I will probably post some single cards and then, when I can, a whole batch.

I love this deck, it looks like it's going to be one of my favourites (and I'm quite difficult to please).

Just a concern: if you plan to post a whole batch of cards, maybe you need to start adding copyright notices across them, as they're very easy to copy.

baba-prague

20-06-2007, 09:11

Yes, it's true, although we don't post at high resolution usually - and they are jpegs - so if anyone tried to print they wouldn't get any very nice result. Plus the cards here are mostly not quite finished.

Still, it's a good point and I should begin to put a copyright notice on - thanks for that thought!

nicki

20-06-2007, 09:27

The Death card definitely rivals Justice in terms of sheer scariness (we did it between midnight and one last night - we had most of the elements, but just needed to work on them).

I was going to ask about The Death card, its usually the first one I look at first along with The Devil, can't wait to see this one.

nicki

6 Haunted Days

20-06-2007, 13:17

How very fitting to do work on the Death card during the Witching hour. I can only imagine what the image is, and I am dying to know! (pun intended).

That Justice card is a real shocker. I myself thought it was a ghost behind him in the door hovering over her killer carrying that witch book (I just assumed everyone would know right off the bat what it was!).

This is going to be a very delicious Autumn.

6 Haunted Days

20-06-2007, 13:25

"Beauty sitting in the lap of horror" is wonderful - if you don't mind I think that may find its way into the book.

Of course I wouldn't mind! What better phrase to be in the Bohemian Gothic companion book then one from the very first Gothic novels....

gypsy_morrigan

21-06-2007, 13:54

Oh, wow. I am very much in love with the image of Strength (my soul card)! The lion is gorgeous and the woman is so fierce. I also love the World card. I can't wait to have this deck!

Sar

21-06-2007, 16:16

I can almost not wait!

Jewel

22-06-2007, 09:01

I love the Justice Card how macabe! very frightening if you claim the Maleus Malefactum to be the book of justice. Love the two toned eyes too and Alexe's explanation for them. The Strength card ... not sure, yes it is gorgeous, but I am not sure it says "Strength" to me. When I was thinking of the Strength card in context of this deck I was thinking of someone taming, resisting, or fighting (not physical but mental/emotional) something evil. The black winged beauty seems to be perfectly content. She would make a great page! *LOL*. I am sure you will have explained this card where it makes perfect sense so I will read back through.

ARGH! Full marks for not giving up :joke: IF there seem to be at least twelve people who would buy such a bag then we will try to do one for Halloween - we really need to sell about twenty of them to cover the time in "setting up" the image.

However, I think you may be the only AT-er who wants one? On the other hand, right now anything that remotely has one of our cats on it seems to be big (by our standards) in Korea and Japan so there may be a way (one bag to Jewel, all the others to Tokyo? Sounds a little odd to me!)
~giggles~ so do we have 20 yet???? you know, the Vampuss bag with the Vampuss crawling down the wall??? :D ... I don't care if the other 19 got to Japan, I just want MINE!!!. With that cool backing like my "Elf Boy Bag" (the one that is sort of red and turns purple in the light) ~giggles~ ... ohhhhh and silver cords please, you can pick the beads, no fringe please *LOL*. Where is the pre-order button??? I could not find it :D I have been envisionioning this bag since I read the Vampuss you know, and by the way Its your fault I need to have it, you put the image in the book *LOL*. This bag will just be so fabulous with my Silver Dark Sister deck ... I just can't wait.

By the way, I would buy the T-shirt too you know, maybe a deep burgundy color, sleevless of course *LOL* ... OK I will settle for the bag, promise not pester about the T-shirt :D ... now about the Vampuss bag again ... ~giggles~ ... Seriously Karen, thanks for considering my request. I really really do want the Vampuss bag, so you could count on me getting one the moment it becomes available.

baba-prague

22-06-2007, 10:14

With the Vampuss bag you DO want fringing - our new antique fringing. Trust me on this, it is utterly gorgeous and from a church hanging (no, no, we did not get it from the church, we got it from a friend who bought it in an antique auction :) ). The Vampuss needs the church fringing.

We have some other surprises up our sleeves for the early autumn. No teeshirts yet - though I do wonder about whether we can do some clothing next year.

Strength? I think it asks us to ask ourselves what 'strength" is. The demon/devil/vampyre woman is definitely strong, but she has to chain her lion. It actually, bizarrely enough, all reminds me of the scene in Narnia where Aslan is chained and the witch thinks she has defeated him.

Anyway, Alex just utterly changed The Chariot card and I actually shivered when I saw it. Unbelievable I think. I'll post it when we are done - maybe the best card yet (okay, okay, I have a tendency to think that with each fresh one).

gypsy_morrigan

22-06-2007, 10:34

Strength? I think it asks us to ask ourselves what 'strength" is. The demon/devil/vampyre woman is definitely strong, but she has to chain her lion. It actually, bizarrely enough, all reminds me of the scene in Narnia where Aslan is chained and the witch thinks she has defeated him.

It strikes me as more ambiguous than that. Actually, my fiance and I were looking at this image last night, trying to figure out possible explanations for it. She could have the lion by the chain, or maybe she just freed him. Only one paw has a chain on it, so he could easily overpower her if he wanted, I think. I don't see the woman as automatically evil, either--she looks strange and different, but maybe she's just misunderstood. I think I'm identifying with her a little too much, perhaps! Someone upthread thought this card was too dark, but I think it suits the ambiguity of the deck very well.

If you do some sort of swag with this image on it, I'll buy it in a heartbeat :).

baba-prague

22-06-2007, 10:51

If you do some sort of swag with this image on it, I'll buy it in a heartbeat :).

We definitely will do - apart from anything else because I want a bag with this image on it myself. I also was on the point of offering it now as a print - but then thought it might complicate matters too much somehow. I may ask Alex how he would feel about setting one or two of the BG images up as textiles prints sooner rather than later. I would like to do The World and the new Chariot too (though it may be too freakishly frightening - a very scary card). I'd also like to do the Queen of Cups and The Moon from this deck - which I will show once we have done a little more work on them.

Oh - and I like your analysis. I don't think my very short piece above by any means sums up the card - but the link to Jadis and Aslan IS there in my mind also. If you remember, in the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe story, the witch thinks she has chained Aslan, but in fact HE is the strong one (strong enough to make the sacrifice) and could break the chains at any point.

BTW, the visual darkness (as opposed to the darkness in meaning) of the cards is hard to judge as they will look quite different in print from on screen. I can't decide whether to alter them a bit before showing them on screen - perhaps I should lighten them a little, it might be a better representation. In general though, the actual printed cards WILL be quite dark in tone - we want the deck to feel a little mysterious, not all details obvious at first glance.

HearthCricket

22-06-2007, 11:13

Here, here, for fringed Vampuss Bags. I definitely want one! How else can I bring my BBC's out for Halloween readings? Vampuss would be purrrfect! :D

Pumpkin

22-06-2007, 12:24

Wow, I haven't read this thread in three or four weeks. Love the updates. Gorgeous cards.

I can't wait to see these in person.

22-06-2007, 12:38

where are you looking at cards?
Thanks

baba-prague

22-06-2007, 13:29

I'm afraid just in this thread. I am working on the website but it will be a while (I would guess up to two weeks) until it's ready to update properly with pages for the cards.

I do have some pictures on my Myspace blog (I swore never to have a Myspace, but oddly enough find I quite like it) if that's an easier place to see some.

http://www.myspace.com/babastudio

- the blog (such as it is, it's very new) http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog&Mytoken=5B152B59-6D03-487B-82557D946062A16572142665

I WILL get on with the site, really I will!

Jewel

22-06-2007, 14:20

I am still a bit confused about the strength card, but I am sure I will "get it" once I read the wonderful companion book you are sure to include with the Dark Sister ... this deck will always be the Dark Sister to me *LOL*. The overall design of the deck, so far as I have seen, is fantastic and I have understood the majority of the cards so I think I will have no problem reading with it straight out of the box. I love the feel of it, I prefer macabe to gruesome any day of the week. I have wanted a really good dark deck for a long time, and have only been satisfied somewhat by the Mage Ascention deck. The Dark Sister will definetly fill that void :D.

With the Vampuss bag you DO want fringing - our new antique fringing. Trust me on this, it is utterly gorgeous and from a church hanging. The Vampuss needs the church fringing.
OK if you insist, just as long as I get my Vampuss crawling down the tower bag. If he NEEDS the fringe who am I to keep it from him *LOL*.

The reason I do not order bags with fringe is not that I don't like them, but to avoid them getting torn up when I carry them around in my purse or bag. I am afraid of fringe catching on something, pulling apart, or having some other terrible fate. But if you think it will withstand being toted around with books and such (where it might get pulled on occassion) then I will get the fringe one.

I look forward to see what surprises you guys come up with. I love your stuff! How about a 2008 Calendar??? ~giggles and hides~

Pagan X

07-07-2007, 15:40

This deck arouses in me but one passion engendering conflicting plans. Do I kidnap Alex? Do I kidnap Karen? Do I lurk on their roof, enjoying the pure unearthly light that issues from the windows at all hours? Do I wrap myself in rags and sleep in the street? Where do I plug in my laptop?

I wonder about the story that must be attendent upon the creation of this deck. Surely there have been nightmares, sullen obsessive nights spent gazing red-eyed at the recalcitrant computer screen, stormy afternoons dodging in and out of decaying bookshops and tumbledown photo studios, dripping umbrellas and mysterious paper wrapped parcels; at least one cripple, one dwarf, and a man missing his nose. There must be operatic fights conducted in multiple languages, a duel, a previously unknown relative who looks suspiciously like an ancestral portrait. There must be a newly discovered subbasement and slitherings. Flowers bloom and fade in untimely fashions. There must be manic fevers and sweat bedewed brows followed by langours and vapors.

Other macabre decks are doubly pallid compared to this one, for they all start out pallid, but on the meter of genius they are twice-faded.

baba-prague

07-07-2007, 15:48

at least one cripple, one dwarf, and a man missing his nose.

ROTFL! Actually, it was in the UK that I lived next door to a dwarf and his ex-ballerina wife - and very charming they were most of the time too (not good with the cats though).

Here, well, the story of the deck has to be told sometime. I'm not sure anyone will believe me though. I have been tempted many times to tell the truth - that we have a vampiric commentator on this deck (who entered our lives just at the same time that the deck did) - but as I say, who would believe? The thing about Prague is that you don't have to actually DO anything to make life surreal - it just is.

Marvelous post Pagan, though of course not at all like our reality (ho hum, ho hum) - I will put up the Queen of Cups in a minute as a thank-you.

baba-prague

07-07-2007, 15:49

She is the Lorelei - actually the same water spirit that became The Moon in the Victorian Romantic. Sweet, seductive - but deadly.

Embla

07-07-2007, 15:54

I love the kinship between her and the VR Moon, that calls for many parallell interpretations! And I love the way the light comes down from the sky between the clouds behind her....

baba-prague

07-07-2007, 15:57

I love the kinship between her and the VR Moon, that calls for many parallell interpretations! And I love the way the light comes down from the sky between the clouds behind her....

I secretly have hopes that some people will try mixing these decks - certain cards could work really well together.

Oh - behind her is the sea by the way - Alex took that photo years ago - but this is not a terribly good jpeg of the whole card (sorry, that's my fault, I made it quite low quality - I'm a bit paranoid about copyright).

Baroli

07-07-2007, 16:09

baba-prague

07-07-2007, 16:11

Nuts!! And I thought I had an original idea. :D

Baroli

It probably was your idea and you transferred it to me telepathically! I had an idea about doing a sort of "light" and "dark" way of reading these decks. It would be very interesting to see how they counter-balance one another.

Pagan X

07-07-2007, 16:14

It would be an artistic injustice to keep the tale to yourself out of the entirely mundane anxiety over the belief of others. Think of today's thwarted Tarot historians panting for the story behind Pixie and Arthur's Tarot, the details of one of the world's greatest occult orders locked away in the past! And here you would visit the same pain upon our descendents! I tsk tsk you!

Among tarot readers especially, we all know that when you pay attention to the Universe, it will speak, coincidence piles upon coincidence, postcards from Goddess Fate.

I will now set a good example and go drive three hours in 104 degree heat to view a crop circle. Odds are that it is entirely of mundane human construction, but I can't pass up the opportunity, what if it isn't? We cannot pass up opportunities for wonder...

At the very least promise me that you will deposit a full account on acid free paper in a sealed aluminum canister. Bury it in the yard with a bit of radioactive waste stolen from a medical facility that it may be found in coming millenia.

Off to refill the water jugs in case I get stranded on the highway.

baba-prague

07-07-2007, 16:33

We have a bet on here that it's only a matter of time until someone does The Tarot of Crop Circles. If it's within the next year or so, Alex wins.

Be careful - and don't speak to any strange small men of blueish tinge.

HearthCricket

07-07-2007, 17:10

I secretly have hopes that some people will try mixing these decks - certain cards could work really well together.

Oh - behind her is the sea by the way - Alex took that photo years ago - but this is not a terribly good jpeg of the whole card (sorry, that's my fault, I made it quite low quality - I'm a bit paranoid about copyright).

Very nice! I love the way the sun is breaking through the clouds, but there is a lot of stormy skies in there! She looks interesting...pretty, slightly seductive, enjoying her arts, siren-ish with her harp, but one wonders what she is up to now that she has laid her harp down? Is she the ray of sunshine, the calm before the storm? The sweet one moment and the Wild Sargasso Sea the next? Hmm......

Ah, mixing the decks. Always loads of fun with interesting results! Hehehe....

Little Baron

08-07-2007, 03:31

We have a bet on here that it's only a matter of time until someone does The Tarot of Crop Circles.

I can see Lo Scarebeo mind's ticking and pens flicking already :D

LB

Twilight Sky

08-07-2007, 04:25

The Queen of Cups reminds me of a muse. She has such an innocent face but I feel a sense of mystery about her. I second HearthCricket's post, I love the way the clouds break to let streaks of light reflect off the water. Karen you are making me want this deck the more and more.. :heart:

And what an interesting idea about mixing the two decks together! Are they going to be around the same size?

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 05:00

And what an interesting idea about mixing the two decks together! Are they going to be around the same size?

Yes, exactly the same size, though the cardstock may be slightly different (if negotiations go well we hope to change cardstock - again! Still searching for the perfect one.)

I think mixing the decks, or using them in tandem, could be quite unusual - and insightful.

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 05:04

VERY different to the Queen of Cups. We have had this photo (of the main figure) for some time - and I have always found it very creepy, partly because it's just about impossible to work out what gender this person is, mainly because, given the gender ambiguity, the costume is somehow so odd - vaguely inappropriate. I'm pleased to get "her" out of my head and on to a card at last.

By the way, as ever, this may not be quite 100% final - we always tweak a bit when the whole deck is complete.

la-luna

08-07-2007, 06:03

Embla

08-07-2007, 06:13

This queen reminds me of the saying " Life is like a tiger, you can ride on its back or let it trample allover you." He/she is definitely riding on the tiger´s back, living life to the hilt, not holding on to past hurts, but instead making positive use of her experiences to get what she wants and having a ball while doing it! The fact that this queen could be a she-man only strenghtens her even more; she is not willing to accept any one else´s rules, regulations or standards, and instead creates her own. I love the familiar Queen of Wands-cat with the glowing eyes in the background!

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 06:21

To me it also has echoes of stories like The Masque of the Red Death. There is something a little disturbing about a ball with, apparently, only one person and a cat in attendance.

By the way, we have used the ballroom of the Castle at Cesky Krumlov in this card (it's used in the Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot too - though there it looks much more jolly). The Castle is notoriously haunted, so seems to fit well.

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 08:10

la-luna

08-07-2007, 09:12

Well, I said it might change - and earlier than I expected, in fact this morning, it did change!
It definitely feels more finished now. So, it's on to the Five of Cups... we seem to be making good progress now so I will work on the website soon.

(S)he looks wonderful a bit frail and emotional – but ready to make her dreams into reality even by changing the world and herself /himself into the image seen in the minds eye, and this by every way possible sometimes soft and nurturing other times a real drama queen
The world is her stage and she is the creator of the play that we call live.

HearthCricket

08-07-2007, 09:52

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 10:00

Well, I have to admit that I don't care for the person in this card. Sorry! Being straight I am not grabbed at all at the transvestite cards. The deck seems to be taking a turn that is tuning me out quickly. I'm not tryng to sound snobbish, but it just isn't me, anymore. Which is sad, because I was so looking forward to this deck. :(

Well, you know, this is an old photograph - we haven't put this spin either on this picture or the Four of Pentacles (in fact we rather feminised this person if anything), it's simply the way the photographs are. I think some gender ambiguity is very much part of the Gothic - I'm just been reading a book on the poetics of the Gothic that makes this point repeatedly. So it's part and parcel of what will make this deck work - and make it somewhat unsettling. I don't think transvestites are unsettling btw - I'm a big admirer of Grayson Perry myself :), I think that it's specifically the uncertainty that unsettles in this picture. You can of course simply read both these figures as women - as I say, with this one I simply don't know what to make of the photo as it's impossible to tell either way. I think the Four of Pentacles IS definitely a woman - but it doesn't have to be read that way.

But well, with apologies it's how we want the deck to be. Gothic IS disturbing by its very nature and this deck will indeed disturb. We just aren't into Gothick Lite and so the cards won't please everyone (I know you're not into Gothick Lite either HC, but many people are).

la-luna

08-07-2007, 10:10

Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder so is darkness and “normality “. So how a card is read is all in the eye of the reader I would say it’s a he because it reminds me of my friend W. but others may see an “a bit masculine” looking woman.
It’s not what’s said or thought that’s the most interesting but thing that might or might not be the insecurity the speculations – and aren’t those the main attractions of the darker side?

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 10:12

Yes, and I suppose what I am trying to say is that transformation and transgression are central to the Gothic. It's why it tends to invade our nightmares and, dare I say, our dreams.

RaeBelle

08-07-2007, 10:54

Oh that cat with glowing eyes. It kinda reminds me of my mom's one cat. So very Queen of Wands. I like the ambiguity of the card too. Though I have to work a bit to see the Queen as man.

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 10:57

I like the ambiguity of the card too. Though I have to work a bit to see the Queen as man.

You don't have to - it's left entirely open :-).

RaeBelle

08-07-2007, 11:00

I was just trying to get the 'man-vibe' since others mentioned it. And for me, it's really just not there. But the idea of the ambiguity is rather appealing!

HearthCricket

08-07-2007, 11:19

I think it is funny how everyone sees something so different in a single card. My husband took once glance at it and said "It is a man, though!" and asked what is up with the drag queen? His/her arms are much more feminine than the face. I think it is the dark eyebrows, dark lips and shadowy eyes that give me the impression this is a man.

Maybe it will grow on me. Maybe not. But I will probably get the deck for the 6 of cups card, alone, which I find absolutely brilliant, not to mention the Strength card.

Yes, Karen, this deck does give one the shivers and makes one uncomfy and looking over your back. I can see the characters in these cards taking on life and creeping into my dreams, or rather nightmares! Maybe I need to read more Gothic novels this summer and see where it brings me. If I don't sleep well, we know who to blame. ;)

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 11:20

I was just trying to get the 'man-vibe' since others mentioned it. And for me, it's really just not there. But the idea of the ambiguity is rather appealing!

Yes, it's interesting, a lot of this is, in the end, in the eye of the beholder. When I first saw the photograph that we based this card on I was certain it was a man, but Alex sees it entirely as a woman. I imagine that in readings it may "change" according to the cards that fall around it. I agree with you about the appeal of this - I like cards that are not too fixed in their readings.

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 11:25

Yes, Karen, this deck does give one the shivers and makes one uncomfy and looking over your back. I can see the characters in these cards taking on life and creeping into my dreams, or rather nightmares! Maybe I need to read more Gothic novels this summer and see where it brings me. If I don't sleep well, we know who to blame. ;)

I think I will post the Seven of Cups in a minute, though I'm not sure that we entirely think she is finished. Now she is all woman - but there is something unnerving about her. I want to know her story.

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 11:29

Little Baron

08-07-2007, 11:39

That's a nice one Karen. I like that a lot.

LB

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 11:41

Thanks. She's not exactly evil I think - but she might be. It's another of those wonderful Victorian faces that is slightly unexpected.

Skydancer

08-07-2007, 11:46

Ahhhh ... I see the final Q of Wands also has 3 candles. I like that.

*S*
who can't wait for this deck to be "finally finished." :thumbsup:

la-luna

08-07-2007, 11:50

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 11:54

She makes me think of the beginning of the movie "Das Cabinet des Dr. Caligari" not so much in colours imagery but in atmosphere, before we learn about the protagonist’s madness.
Is she mad or simply in a what festive mood toasting to the moon (lunatic as they called in the middle ages comes to mind)

Yes, exactly, she is very much "lunatic" in that sense. I think these cards are building up some unusual cross-linkages. I'd like to see how this one would work in a spread in which The Moon was prominent. It would definitely tip the meaning.

I'm ever so slightly nervous about how the first readings with this deck will go - it's strong stuff (I mean strong, I'm not trying to say it's wonderful or anything, but that it's strong like liqueur or burgundy). It's NOT one for every reading or querent.

AngelC

08-07-2007, 11:54

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 11:57

I've loved every card so far but that Queen of Wands leaves me cold.
It's a card I identify with a lot and a drag queen won't be "me" anymore.

Not saying I won't get the deck, the rest it amazing so far but this is definitely going to be a problem card for me. *shrug* But then again, almost every deck has a few of those.

AngelC

You know, in a way it's the "problem" cards that may make this deck - I think they're necessary to just shift the whole thing into a less comfortable space. Of course I know that if you identify with the Queen of Wands it may not be ideal, but then again, I'll be interested to hear how you go with this card if you use the whole deck.

I just wanted to say also - just THINK how shocking Carmilla (the vampire is lesbian) must have been to Le Fanu's original readers. We need to recapture a little of that in order really to get the flavour of what Gothic is.

Little Baron

08-07-2007, 12:00

It's a card I identify with a lot and a drag queen won't be "me" anymore.

Have I missed something? I think I must have.

*goes back to take a look*

LB

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 12:05

Have I missed something? I think I must have.

*goes back to take a look*

LB

Do tell us what you see! As I say, Alex and I are quite divided on this one. I just talked again to him about it and he said, "Strange, I don't see it'."

We could do a poll :joke:

HearthCricket

08-07-2007, 12:17

Here she is. I think I will say no more. Oh! Except to say that we DO have men in this deck - but I now realise that I find the female figures more interesting to post here in many cases. Which I have to think about.

Ooh. The minute I saw her I wondered, is she drinking wine or blood in that cup? And exactly what is she toasting? The full moon? Or the result of a full moon? Or the night in general? Hmmmm! She does seem rather elated!

I am thinking more on that queen and the whole drag queen look. I keep thinking of a scene in the very cute movie Hocus Pocus. There is a Halloween party for adults at a house where everyone is dressed in Colonial attire, including the white wigs. The girl's father looks very feminine, even though he is dressed in men's clothes. It is the wig, the paler skin and the lipstick that makes him look that way. It makes me want to watch Amadeus, again, and see how many people in the background also confuse me as to which gender they are. I am wondering how many women wore wigs but didn't lighten their eyebrows. I appreciate decks that make me question and do research.

Skydancer

08-07-2007, 12:19

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 12:23

As for me ...

the first picture you posted of the QofWands just a couple of pages back here, was more 'mannish' than the final photo just posted, the one where you added the 3 candles on the wall.

Definitely Drag-Queen. The final one is too, but the first one was more so.
I like the idea - makes you think on it a bit.

BTW - I like the face of the first card better, but tilted like the final card, and add the candles. JMHO :)

*S*

Yes, Alex thought the first version a little harsh and "unfinished". I like the fact that the dress became red - shades of the "scarlet woman" and also, as I mentioned, "The Masque of the Red Death".

By the way, in real life, this is my sister's cat - called Pluto by her husband after the Edgar Allen Poe story (I have never dared tell my sister what the reference is and I gather my brother-in-law has not told her the story either!)

Little Baron

08-07-2007, 12:33

Do tell us what you see! As I say, Alex and I are quite divided on this one. I just talked again to him about it and he said, "Strange, I don't see it'."

We could do a poll :joke:

Isn't it funny how sometimes, we don't really look or see?

I glanced at the picture, but it was only after discussion that I went back and really looked at the picture.

I can see a strong masculine element to the face. I think it is the eye-brows. They are very heavy. But then again, Madonna had a pair twice the thickness of those in the early eighties and nobody battered an eyelid.

But I have always seen the Queen of Wands to have masculine elements to her personality. And when I look at this one, I see someone who has gotten away with something. Or is trying, at least, to get away with something. That fan has an element of both femininity and disguise for her to flutter infont of her face. I think this character could easily move between the worlds of gender, taking form differently in different places; and for it to be not entirely recognisable on first sight. Some kind of hidden drive and control. A fire burning behind a guard that is as fixed as she wants it to be.

LB

AngelC

08-07-2007, 12:53

I'm sure I'll learn to live with her too :D

Anyway, I'm not entirely sure about the red/yellow thing either.
Normally I'd pick the red but in this case it sort of kills the background, like she's not part of the scenery anymore... if that makes any sense at all :P
Hm, I think it's the eerie light that disappeared because the red got to be so dominating.

And yes Karen, you are right. Cards being something else than we expect is good! It will force me to think and see other sides of the cards than I usually do.

AngelC

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 13:01

Okay, last one for today, and maybe for this week. This is one of the very masculine cards. I find it less controversial, but then again, it's quite graphic.

I'ts based, like the Queen of Swords, on a photograph from the Sedlec Bone Chapel. Again, it may be tweaked a bit before it goes to print.

Little Baron

08-07-2007, 13:12

jackdaw*

08-07-2007, 13:18

I kinda like him. It'd be nice to see his face, but I like him anyway. And the Seven of Cups.

As for the Queen of Wands, I think she looks like a man too ... I don't much care for her. But the other two Queens I've seen so far are very good.

Skydancer

08-07-2007, 13:20

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 13:27

Not so sure about the king, in the fact that he is covered up. I have been using the Gilded this afternoon and one of my gripes with that is that I can't see any of the knights - just their armour. Is there a reason for it in this case, Karen?

LB

Yes, we want him to feel closed off, inapproachable, hard - and, as this is Gothic, I also want the viewer to have to ask themselves if there is in fact a person in there at all. If you pulled open that visor - what would you see?

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 13:29

KofSwords -- hmmm ... wouldn't this work better as a Knight??

I don't mind the covered face - it's the idea and not the expression anyway. If we rely on facial expressions for our interpretations in readings then we may not get the variety needed.

*S*

No, he wears a crown - and he is the one armoured King of the Deck (as in fact the Queen of Swords was the one armoured queen of the Victorian Romantic). You know, to me Swords is very "metallic" in a sense - hard, glittery, a shell that it's difficult to get behind.

la-luna

08-07-2007, 13:30

not to sure what to make of him he looks very static probabely tha fact that he has no face or more important no eyes to gaze in

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 13:32

not to sure what to make of him he looks very static probabely tha fact that he has no face or more important no eyes to gaze in

Yes, and that's what we wanted. He is in stark contrast to many of the other much more flowing figures - he is stiff, rigid, and unshifting in his opinion. Difficult - and daunting I hope.

Skydancer

08-07-2007, 13:33

Maybe that's what's missing - the eyes. And yes, static.

I get the idea though. But it does seem ... yeah, static.

[edited: oh, okay. Now I get what you were after!]

shadowdancer

08-07-2007, 13:51

This deck looks like it will manipulate the mind quite nicely. I think I could see myself using it for looking past what is being presented, to what may be alterior motives. (not just for this obviously, but it could go to move the veils to see behind the facade).

I understand your view points on all the cards to date, and I have to say, it is making me question my own views on diversity with the cards which have overt cross dressing / drag queen overtones. They too have made me feel a little uncomfortable which is no bad thing if it makes me ask the question "why". How these would relate in a reading will be interesting indeed.

Queen of cups is looking particularly good though!! And I am not forgetting this will be highlighted in silver for the special edition. Already that is getting me salivating.

Davina

Skydancer

08-07-2007, 14:08

Silver special edition?? Wow - missed that ~

More intrigued all the time...

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 14:12

Yes, with silver ink overlays and - we hope - a silk bag. But we are still organising the bag so that's not certain.

We're very pleased with the deck so far, but I do think it will be seriously atmospheric (am I trying not to say "creepy"?) in use. I've decided that I am chickening out of showing the Death card for now - some of the cards are quite demanding.

Pagan X

08-07-2007, 14:50

Hmph! Having been mistaken as male when my hair has been cut short, I must speak up on behalf of women with prominant features (and unplucked eyebrows) everywhere.

One of the wonderful things about using historic photographs is that it gets away from following the current stereotypes of beauty, both feminine and masculine, and from the results of current beautifying procedures and makeup.

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 14:54

One of the wonderful things about using historic photographs is that it gets away from following the current stereotypes of beauty, both feminine and masculine, and from the results of current beautifying procedures and makeup.

Yes, that is true. Alex was adamant about using real old photos on the grounds that "faces looked different". I think he's right - though it's been quite a task tracking down collectors etc to find the source material.

baba-prague

08-07-2007, 14:56

HearthCricket

08-07-2007, 15:35

By the way I really ought to post some of the 1920s photos of romantic couples that we have seen (but not bought). To today's eyes, the young men look wildly camp and feminine (complete with very slicked hair and heavily lined eyes) - but they are actually presented - in clinches with girls - as ideal males. It's quite strange. As you say, it makes one aware of how much ideals of beauty - and gender signals - change.

I agree. My grandmother had somewhat masculine features, though not to this extent. You could tell she was female, but she had a big bone look to here, never wore much makeup except for lipstick and looked like the kind of woman who would have survived prairie life. She was of English and Scottish decent. OTOH, my other grandmother was small, delicate featured, and always looked feminine, though she only wore a little lipstick. She was part American Indian. I think not only the time or style may dictate a particularly feminine look, but I think genes and heritage make a big difference, too. Few people realize that most Native Americans (both men and women) have little body hair. No hair on the legs, arms, chest (hehehe...well, the men) and face. If they do, they are not pure Native American, but have some European or Asian blood in them. Keep an eye on those warriors next time you watch Dances with Wolves!

I like the King. He reminds me of ghost stories about Knights and Kings that fought in the Crusades that rise from their graves during certain times of the year, mount their ghostly horses and ride through the town until dawn, off on some unfinished quest. Their souls are always restless, alert and ready for action, but as they are dead, the public sees them as stiff, stone, statue like. They are what legends are made of. He haunts me well. :) I like him, a lot!

evelone

09-07-2007, 12:21

The new cards are awesome. As for the "Queen" of Wands - Miss Thing, your gown is dreamy but that wig has to go.

Reminds me of a story about Tallulah Bankhead at Christmas Mass, when she leaned over and whispered to Cardinal Spellman as he swung his smoking censor down the aisles, "Love the dress, Frankie, but your purse is on fire."

Jewel

09-07-2007, 12:40

baba-prague

09-07-2007, 13:07

The new cards are great ... but I agree that if at all possible something needs to be done with the white wig on the Queen of Wands ... The queen of wands is one of the cards that I usually most strongly associate with in any deck, and that white hair just somehow douses the fire for me. Perhaps make her redhead or give her auburn colored hair and return to the original varigated dress color???? Love the cat! I think the white wig makes her look older, maybe that is it. Not sure just typing as I think.

The 7 of cups reminds me of me after several drinks, all dreamy and happy and having dark fantasies *ROFLMAO*. I love the expression on her face. Great image! The Queen of cups is lovely too.

No, no, no! The whole point is that the Queen of Wands is wearing a Baroque dress and typical Baroque powdered wig. Making her hair auburn would be a disaster. Sorry, but no! :)

I do listen and enjoy the comments, but we really can't do things that we think would destroy the imagery. We've been working on this deck a long time and have an overview of how the cards will work together. I hope you'll forgive me digging very strong heels in on this one.

To be honest, we are not looking for "change this, change that" comments on this thread (well, we are happy to hear them - but very unlikely to respond by making changes that we don't feel are right). Design by consensus sounds lovely but tends to result in a mish-mash. It has to be our vision in the end. Then the deck will either work for you or not - it can't work for everyone.

baba-prague

09-07-2007, 13:13

ps - I do remember our US distributors on the Bohemian Cats suggesting we "tone them down and cute them up" with pink ribbons and what-not. If we'd followed that well-meant notion we would have ended up with something that was more or less like everything else around - not different or interesting at all. It would not have been our Bohemian Cats (who as a result of being distinctly themselves are busily off forging some amazing things in the Far East and no doubt learning to wear kimonos, but I can't announce that yet).

You know, part of being a designer all my life is that you learn to take critique with good grace - and then get on with what your own judgement, having read and considered the critique, tells you to do - it's the only way.

Oh dear. Hope you don't mind! This deck is going to be very strong - I am certain of that. But it isn't intended as a general crowd-pleaser you know, and many of the cards will be difficult and not pretty at all.

evelone

09-07-2007, 13:28

You know, part of being a designer all my life is that you learn to take critique with good grace - and then get on with what your own judgement, having read and considered the critique, tells you to do - it's the only way.

Oh dear. Hope you don't mind!

And I only meant my drag queen comments in the way of a joke.

I would hope that no one would change their art for me, or their dress, or even their wig (unless it was my best friend, and he asked what d'ya think? Then I'd hand him a comb and some hairspray).

Embla

09-07-2007, 13:32

Just a quick note to express my support for your take on this discussion, your creative process, artistic integrity and work with this deck. Keep it up and don´t let us distract you!

baba-prague

09-07-2007, 13:43

Just a quick note to express my support for your take on this discussion, your creative process, artistic integrity and work with this deck. Keep it up and don´t let us distract you!

Oh well, if you think I am stubborn, try Alex! Thank-you!

Seriously, we will never do a big best-seller kind of deck I'm sure (sadly in some ways) but then again, I think our decks will always be interesting because we do tend to have such strong visions of each one.

There is, by the way, a most wonderful (and very horrifying) story by Sheridan Le Fanu (I have a great fondness for Irish Gothic of course) called Madam Crowl's Ghost, and it is in part that story that was in my mind when we did this card. This is, after all, the dark, hidden underside of the Queen of Wands - as she might appear in your worst imaginings. She ain't nice!
http://www.online-literature.com/lefanu/1779/

Briar Rose

09-07-2007, 13:45

baba-prague

09-07-2007, 13:56

Karen, I love The Bohemian Gothic Tarot. I am looking forward to it!

I hope you are going to have a bag with it, like you wrote awhile back in this thread. Which card will the picture be from? Wait, lets make it a surprise. But can it fringe and beads?

I love the silver on the cards. Would you consider using the silver around the outside edges of the cards? I think it would look amazing.

:heart:

The bag that comes with the kit will not have a picture - it was just impossible to get someone to do 500 bags with a picture without adding some ridiculous cost - there is no way we could produce 500 of one thing in time ourselves without devoting everything to that and nothing else for ages. But it WILL be special in a different way (I hope, I still haven't seen the sample and we have a plan up our sleeve which may or may not work). In any case, I had doubts that everyone would be happy to get the same picture - still not sure how that would have gone down.

Separately we will of course do a small range of pictorial bags - I hope about eight as I think there will be more cards than that which would make great bags (I have already decided on the Queen of Swords for myself). I want to try to see if we can use antique black brocade (which I have been stashing - though still not sure if it will be too stiff) and we will certainly do fringing - hopefully of various sorts. We have already booked ALL the blood-red glass beads that our supplier has!

evelone

09-07-2007, 14:10

"There she was, dressed out. You never sid the like in they days. Satin and silk, and scarlet and green, and gold and pint lace; by Jen! 'twas a sight! A big powdered wig, half as high as herself, was a-top o' her head...and such long nails, all cut into points,"

That's one scary queen!

baba-prague

09-07-2007, 14:28

You have picked out the exact quote that I am using in the book! I don't mean that our card is exactly an illustration of this story - we have tried to keep the cards more generic so that they are not each tied to a particular story (Gothic has such strong themes that certain imagery can apply to many stories) but certainly Madam Crowl was one of the characters that went into the making of this card. As I say, the Masque of the Red Death is also somewhere in there - hence the blood-red dress.

The cat? He just wandered in :) (actually, if you know The Black Cat by Poe you will know that there is a horrible link between this and the Le Fanu story - they are both about "walling in" a victim).

evelone

09-07-2007, 14:46

Oooh, I hope Poe is going to show up in the deck! Laudanum and rum, and absynth, oh my!

baba-prague

09-07-2007, 14:53

Oooh, I hope Poe is going to show up in the deck! Laudanum and rum, and absynth, oh my!

Even our little corner shop stocks absinthe - "The Green Fairy", her home is in Prague. There will be lots of oblique references to Poe stories, but, as I say, we don't plan any one-to-one correspondences with particular Gothic tales. For instance, the Queen of Swords could well be Carmilla (not a Poe of course, but still...) - but she doesn't have to be read in that way.

HearthCricket

09-07-2007, 14:58

Even our little corner shop stocks absinthe - "The Green Fairy", her home is in Prague. There will be lots of oblique references to Poe stories, but, as I say, we don't plan any one-to-one correspondences with particular Gothic tales. For instance, the Queen of Swords could well be Camilla (not a Poe of course, but still...) - but she doesn't have to be read in that way.

She is growing on me, as is the other one. All you have to do is watch a movie around that time period, be it Amadeus, Marie Antoinette, Valmont, etc. There is a fine line between who is who and what! The wigs, the enourmous dresses and finery, the painted faces (ever see that lady in Northanger Abbey, the Marchioness or something?) the various face spots, etc. Women look like men, men look like women, genders are mixed, truth is hidden and only revealed behind closed doors, faces are hid behind fans and all is a masque. It took me a while, but I am getting it! :)

Umbrae

09-07-2007, 15:38

So far – I’d not change a thing with this deck.

It’s not supposed to be a pretty fru-fru deck, that’s been done. It’s supposed to be disturbing (IMO), it’s supposed to create – feelings…

If a card makes you uncomfortable – perhaps that should be explored!

Take that Queen of Wands. Lift up the petticoats, perhaps what you expect to see isn’t there.

Do you know or do you think you know?

The King of Swords a knight? Bah! He’s not on a horse – lift up the visor and what stares back at you, or do you even dare to lift the visor…

The Gothic Literature genre, isn’t like today’s in your face, stuff…rarely is blood seen – but there’s always an erotic undertone.

Look again at that 7 of Cups. Will she? Won't she? All she has to do is drink the potion...will she or won't she?

Test question: Where'd she get the potion?

So far, I’ve seen nothing I’d change.

baba-prague

09-07-2007, 15:51

Look again at that 7 of Cups. Will she? Won't she? All she has to do is drink the potion...will she or won't she?

Yes - and with whom? Just who did she meet on the roof? She's excited - no elated - flushed with success and thrilled with herself. What just happened? Whoever it was who she saw on the roof, we can be sure it was NOT the boy next door (who is probably still next door looking at a picture of her in a nice neat high-buttoned dress and assuming that she was long ago safely tucked up for the night).

I like the point about the eroticism Umbrae, that does, I hope, run through many cards of this deck, and often in a disturbingly transgressive way. Personally this particular card reminds me of that line from Kubla Khan, "Woman wailing for her demon lover." If you look at the dress of the women in this deck, you'll see that most are blue or red - with, I hope, all that might be implied by that. Good girl, bad girl, it's one of the themes that Gothic still plays with.

Lay out these cards and see what stories you see - it might be surprising.

HearthCricket

09-07-2007, 16:00

If you look at the dress of the women in this deck, you'll see that most are blue or red - with, I hope, all that might be implied by that. Good girl, bad girl, it's one of the themes that Gothic still plays with.

I read the book about the making of Bram Stoker's Dracula (movie) and there was a lot about the choices they made with colour. Mina and Lucy wearing greens and blues and white, for innocence, purity and mortality. Then Lucy wears orange the night she goes out to Dracula. And Mina only wears red the night she meets Dracula and is dancing with him. Now, none of this happens in the novel, but, they made the point clear about the symbolism of the clothes (hey gotta love Dracula in the Klimt outfit, right?)!!

baba-prague

09-07-2007, 16:19

Yes, I thought the use of colour in that film was one of the best things about it. When we decided to desaturate the colours in this deck (effectively everything is in moonlight, twilight or candelight) we also decided to put in some areas of much stronger colour - used very much in a symbolic rather than a realist way. Of course, many of the photographs we are working with are hand-tinted, so although we don't always use those tints (we have tended to remove the sunny yellows) they definitely gave us an approach that felt right for images of this "period" (though this is less strictly a Victorian deck than the VR is).

HearthCricket

09-07-2007, 16:26

Yes, I thought the use of colour in that film was one of the best things about it. When we decided to desaturate the colours in this deck (effectively everything is in moonlight, twilight or candelight) we also decided to put in some areas of much stronger colour - used very much in a symbolic rather than a realist way.

I was thinking the same thing...it reminds me of looking at things in the moonlight. Only certain colours are revealed and the rest stays in shadow. If it were vibrantly coloured it would look too much like the Victorian Romantic, but with a darker theme. This way it really stays more Gothic and mysterious, like old silent movies. I love the way the cat is just barely seen in the background, except for they eyes. My first cat, who was mostly black, was the same way. Gold eyes in the darkness, and you always wondered what she had been up to!

Skydancer

09-07-2007, 17:47

I'll have you know, Mr. Know-it-all Umbrae, that I have already peeked beneath the helmet and I am in no way inclined to tell you what I saw.

So there.

*S*
sitting back in her lounge chair at the beach, sipping a Cuba Libre, awaiting the fallout. There is always fallout, you know. I, for one, among many, am SO waiting for this deck. Like I've said recently, it will be perfect the way it is.

But .. could you make the cat an orange stripe tabby??

baba-prague

09-07-2007, 18:15

But .. could you make the cat an orange stripe tabby??

Arrgh, evil woman! We'll have no tabbies in this deck. We have already told Minnie that and she got sulky. Alex may slip her in later I suppose - though not if I spot it first. The words "Gothic" and "tabby" just don't sit right together.

So - what did you see under that visor? Go on, you can tell me...
Then again, do I really want to know?

Little Hare

09-07-2007, 20:38

Karen yours and Alex's creativity continues to astonish and amazes me...

Well done!

:heart:

HearthCricket

12-07-2007, 09:10

Queen of Wands. I figured it out. It is her hair. Or his hair. It looks too manly. After watching Marie Antoinette, I think she needs a higher poof and her hair swept back, with, perhaps, a dangling ponytail that lays on her front shoulder.

There are two specific scenes in that movie that really make you wonder who is what gender. The one where she reaches Versailles and walks past all the people outside who are staring at her, and the wedding scene where she is walking up the aisles and once again you see a sea of faces staring and judging her.

baba-prague

12-07-2007, 10:43

I think I may stop, for now, posting cards here and just show more of the deck once it's done. I really feel embarrassed at just constantly saying no to the myriad of changes being suggested - I'm sure with the best of intentions.

But we don't design by consensus - we feel it results in poor design with no personality. We design as "baba studio" and tend to have quite strong direction about what we want to achieve in each deck. We aren't really trying to please everyone or hit a common denominator, just make authentic decks that we feel ourselves are the best we can do.

Maybe I've expressed it better here (last post):
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=82682

I really (really!) appreciate the comments, but I just can't find a positive-sounding way to keep saying "No!" to specific ideas for visual and style changes and I don't want to offend anyone who has been kind enough to comment, so I think I will shut up for now!

But I will no doubt be yacking on on some of the other forums :)

HearthCricket

12-07-2007, 10:47

magenta

12-07-2007, 10:55

But we don't design by consensus - we feel it results in poor design with no personality. We design as "baba studio" and tend to have quite strong direction about what we want to achieve in each deck. We aren't really trying to please everyone or hit a common denominator, just make authentic decks that we feel ourselves are the best we can do.

Baba,you could not have described better what artistic process and work is...
Expression of an inner view...authenticity, what a beautiful thing...

best wishes to you Baba, your work is very inspiring ..

:love:
magenta

baba-prague

12-07-2007, 11:02

Sorry if my post insulted. I certainly didn't mean to expect you to change your deck. I think the majority of people who make comments on the cards and possible changes do so out of the excitement of creating the cards...a process you share so openly with us which we are unfamiliar with, so we get caught up in the sway of possibilities of artistic endeavours. Good luck with your deck.

No, it's not taken as an insult in any way - please don't think that, I appreciate the comments. But it's a confirmation that it may not be helpful for anyone for us to post cards here at this stage in the process. Later, when the deck is more or less finished - or indeed if there are cards that we really do need design input on, then yes, of course I'll post.

Right now we just need to focus on what we are doing - and we are our own most critical critics you know!

baba-prague

12-07-2007, 11:03

Baba,you could not have described better what artistic process and work is...
Expression of an inner view...authenticity, what a beautiful thing...

best wishes to you Baba, your work is very inspiring ..

:love:
magenta

Thank-you. Well, we try - we don't always succeed!

baba-prague

12-07-2007, 11:07

I suppose I ought to add that there are cards in this deck that we know will be very controversial - some we haven't shown for that reason. So getting pulled into defending those is something I don't want to do right now. It IS intended to be a "difficult" deck, in as much as it needs to both disturb and challenge as well as - hopefully - illuminate and delight. We know that some people really will not like some cards - but as Umbrae says, maybe it's those very cards that will be the grit in the deck that produces a pearl in some readings (no, Umbrae put it far better I think).

Anyway, back to the design...

Leo62

12-07-2007, 11:11

we don't design by consensus - we feel it results in poor design with no personality. We design as "baba studio" and tend to have quite strong direction about what we want to achieve in each deck. We aren't really trying to please everyone or hit a common denominator, just make authentic decks that we feel ourselves are the best we can do....I really (really!) appreciate the comments, but I just can't find a positive-sounding way to keep saying "No!" to specific ideas for visual and style changes...
Baba - I love what you're doing with this deck, and I've really enjoyed seeing the story unfolding, as it were, with each new card you've posted.

However - I totally relate to what you're saying. Sometimes I think it's downright dangerous to have too many "voices" in your ears when you're in the throes of the creative process. This deck is your vision, and it's a powerful, distinctive one. By its very nature it's going to unsettle - and possibly p**s off - some people. I would take that as a sign that you're right on track!

And while I will be sorry not to see any more cards posted, I think you're probably making a wise decision. I really look forward to the seeing finished deck :)

baba-prague

12-07-2007, 11:17

Thanks Leo. You know, it's hard not to be derailed a bit by requests for changes. In decks in the past I have sometimes insisted on changes that have first been suggested here - and guess what, they have nearly always felt like mistakes later (not always - for example, we have added lightning to The Tower partly as a result of comments here, though also because I realised when I wrote up that card that it WAS too silent and static to fit the meaning well). So I've learned from that.

Anyway, we have such fights here over cards - although our fights would look like polite discussion to an outsider they feel pretty passionate to us - that maybe that's as much as I can focus on right now.

It IS a very difficult deck to make - emotionally demanding at times, so that's another reason why I need to take it off somewhere quiet for a bit.

Embla

12-07-2007, 11:33

Do what you need to do with the deck and I´ll wait around with great anticipation nomatter the outcome! By the way, I have said it from the beginning but I really appreciate the impact this deck seems to have on almost everyone looking at the scans posted so far. It really touches people, for good or bad. That to me shows great promise for the future!

Jewel

12-07-2007, 13:19

No, no, no! The whole point is that the Queen of Wands is wearing a Baroque dress and typical Baroque powdered wig. Making her hair auburn would be a disaster. Sorry, but no! :)

To be honest, we are not looking for "change this, change that" comments on this thread (well, we are happy to hear them - but very unlikely to respond by making changes that we don't feel are right). Design by consensus sounds lovely but tends to result in a mish-mash. It has to be our vision in the end. Then the deck will either work for you or not - it can't work for everyone.
~giggles~ I know Karen ... just trying to get a rise out of you *LOL*. I promise to behave :D I am loving the deck, can't wait to buy the silver edition (with the Vampuss bag, you know, the one crawling down the tower wall *LOL*)

baba-prague

12-07-2007, 13:30

~giggles~ I know Karen ... just trying to get a rise out of you *LOL*. I promise to behave :D I am loving the deck, can't wait to buy the silver edition (with the Vampuss bag, you know, the one crawling down the tower wall *LOL*)

AAAAARRGGHHHHHHH................................................runs off shrieking - pursued by a flying Vampuss.

Jewel

12-07-2007, 13:37

AAAAARRGGHHHHHHH................................................runs off shrieking - pursued by a flying Vampuss.
So is that a yes? ~bats eyes prettily~, or were you calling me a flying vampuss?, or both :D *ROFLMAO*

By the way I finished reading the rest of the thread after your original response to me, and I want to echo that comments about individual cards was more from the excitement then really expecting you to alter the work you are doing. As much as I love all of my baba decks (I own them all now), I know I will love the outcome of the Dark Sister. I just got cought up in the wave of excitement like someone else said earlier. You just inspire us so then we get creative and think out loud so to speak *LOL*.

Shaymus

12-07-2007, 16:39

I guess I've been living under a rock since last xmas. I haven't been around much on AT, only been back for a week or so.

Today is the first time I heard about this new deck. Like others, I drool waiting for it. The VR has such a nice aura about it, it really brings me back to the late 1800s. It's one of my favourite reading decks.

Today when I read that the BG deck will be available in the fall, I was happy that I didn't know about it back in the spring.....I'm sooo impatient!...haha

The BG deck has a nice dark sumptuousness to it....can't wait.

Not sure if this has been asked or answered (so forgive me if it has been), but when are you taking pre-orders, Karen?

Shaymus

Skydancer

12-07-2007, 21:10

My thinking is that no one will be taking pre-orders until we quit bothering Karen and let her get the deck finished!!!

Yes,yes,yes; HER way!! :D

*S* waiting patiently like everybody else. Okay - not patiently. What can I say ~

[edited to reword: "... THEIR way" ... ... gesh; what was I thinking] :)

Ann
*S*

Indigo Rose

12-07-2007, 22:51

*S* waiting patiently like everybody else. Okay - not patiently. What can I say ~

:laugh: Yeah, I'm over here chomping at the bit on this one. :D I can't wait!! From what I have seen so far, I fear this may become a serious favorite deck. :love:

Blessings to you as you continue to create!!!

:heart:

baba-prague

13-07-2007, 04:03

Well, we already took one pre-order by accident (I had put the deck on the shop but forgot to make it unavailable).

I think pre-orders will be once we go to print - or very shortly before. As yet, we still don't have the bag sorted out - we can't even be certain that we can include a bag with the deck until we see samples. So... watch this space - I think it will be a while to be honest, though we have sketches completed (which means source material also found) for all but about six cards that are proving difficult - and final artwork for maybe thirty or so now. I'm also building the website, so in a month or so - I hope - everything will be on there.

Meantime I continue to have the most vivid nightmares - I suppose that's inevitable working on this kind of imagery!

la-luna

13-07-2007, 05:21

baba-prague

13-07-2007, 05:28

One thing I’m started wondering about – and I’m not sure if it has been asked before, at least I cant find any trace of it – is will you as with the VR be make alternative cards and if so of what card ?

Yes, and we're not telling yet! Well, actually because we think we know but we're not absolutely sure.

Astraea Aurora

13-07-2007, 17:45

Hi Karen and Alex,

by all means ... do it your way. You're the artists, this deck is your vision, the only point of view important in this process is your.

I like the scans a lot. They are fantastic. :love:

@ those fellow ATers passionately awaiting the dark sister to arrive:

Patience is a Virtue ...

Astraea Aurora :grin:

*ariadne*

13-07-2007, 18:51

aahhh! I have been eagerly awaiting this deck! I can't decide which I am more excited about this or the see of logos...Magic Realist press so owns my heart right now <3

Baba I am so sorry to hear of the nightmares. Once they have given their message they will go. I have a couple of hypnotherapy techniques to explore and move past them, pm me if you'd like? Big hug to you.

Dancing Bear

14-07-2007, 05:34

The Bohemian Gothic tarot Is this deck available to the public yet??

I have seen some images and I am In Love with it , it is also right up my alley as far as the darker side of the psyche is concerned and would love to get my mits on it..

I have read in one website that it is not available until october 2007 Is this correct??

any info anyone can give will be greatly appreciated

Love and LIght

Dancing Bear xx

6 Haunted Days

14-07-2007, 06:23

Yes, the release date isn't until 15 October, of course that could change with any problems. Here is the website http://www.bohemiangothic.com/ But the creators are working on the site so there isn't anything there yet, just some pictures. You can read about the decks creation and see some photo's in this thread though!

Mimers

14-07-2007, 06:43

you can also check out Karen's blog. She often posts the progress there as well.

This is going to be an amazing deck. I can feel it! I can't wait to own this deck.

6 Haunted Days

14-07-2007, 08:37

you can also check out Karen's blog. She often posts the progress there as well.

This is going to be an amazing deck. I can feel it! I can't wait to own this deck.

I know! I have never been this excited and anxious for a deck in my life, and that's saying something. I keep getting more and more impressed with each new card I see (drag queen mentions aside, I never got that from those scans, then again I collect old photographs and the women look very masculine so I am used to it).

Though Karen isn't going to be posting any new cards for a long time, I prefer it that way...I want to see this deck in person and discover it in my hands so to speak. But yet.....I want to see scans! lol

Briar Rose

18-07-2007, 10:52

I am wishing Karen and Baba Studios :heart: PEACE :heart:

and calmness while they create the best deck in the world!

Oh my my my, I cannot wait!!!!

Pagan X

18-07-2007, 15:10

baba-prague

18-07-2007, 16:32

Not too much peace, just the right balance of peace and stress to stimulate the creative process.

Ah, but there is a nice Gothic moral dilemma: should we wish them whatever it takes to create the deck, even if it costs their Immortal Souls? Ah, if this were a novel, one would go mad, stab the other, and mix the blood in the ink! Then, the deck printed, create a beautiful pyre and immolate him/herself upon them all!

But then we should have no other decks...

So, purely out of self-interest, we must ask them not to imperil their immortal souls.

Too much.

Er hem, yes, well, there have been times of highish stress, but not quite that high. You do have a definite Gothic turn of the imagination Pagan. Sadly our printer would get very shirty if we tried to mix blood with the ink - they are quite conservative.

Mind-you, Alex did just annex my sketch of the Sun card, grrrrrr (okay, okay, his is better, but...)

We do have one interesting little Gothic surprise up our sleeves - but more of that in August. It involves bones and enchantment - but no blood.

Briar Rose

18-07-2007, 17:32

Do tell Woman!!!!

TygrEyes

18-07-2007, 18:03

Could someone tell me what languages they speak in Prague/Czech Republic, other than Czech, i.e. German, English? From hearing Karen talk about the city, and photos I've found on Flickr it's become a "someday I'll make it there" dream destination.

Thanks

Skydancer

18-07-2007, 21:58

baba-prague

19-07-2007, 05:28

TygrEyes - you and me both!! :)

To Karen - I wish you'd stop teasing us. Really I do. I know I told you that keeping us in the ahhmm dark would help build interest in your deck ... but honestly, girl; thou goest too far.

Bones? Enchantment? Will it by chance be a golden ticket to get to visit you two in your wonderful studio??? *sigh* Just to sit in on one of your brainstorming sessions would be (very close to) heaven. *double sigh*

wretched woman ... mutter mutter

No, no, I'm not staying quiet for that reason. I'm saying nothing as we are still designing "it" and I don't want to announce it then have anyone be disappointed. But I'm excited. I just proofed the final line-art :)

Sitting in on our brainstorming sessions is quite a thought! I cannot brainstorm without coffee and it drives Alex up the walls as I always come late to a session clutching my mug (how pathetic is that - still, it's a relatively harmless addiction and I have gone from ten cups a day many years ago to only two now). Our studio? Well, it's sort of wonderful - dates from the 14th century, but submerged in boxes most of the time. Maybe I should photograph it - and "Cat in the Yard" (our black ferral who has been with us for three/four years now) sometime?

6 Haunted Days

19-07-2007, 07:08

I would absolutely love to see a photo of your studio! :heart:

On a side note about wanting to visit Prague. I have been trying to get there for years, it's my dream city. In 2005 we had money saved and lo behold I had an ooooops and along came Seth. Babies are expensive, so there went our trip. I call him our Prague baby :P

baba-prague

19-07-2007, 07:12

I hope his middle name is Rudolph :joke:

If Prague is attracting you in that way, you'll get here sooner or later. The city just "calls" some people. Others come and notice nothing - interesting.

Skydancer

19-07-2007, 10:43

Dear, dear, SWEET {{H}} sweet Karen, Darling.

Do please post photo(s) forthwith of thy studio. Y tus gatto.

*S*

baba-prague

19-07-2007, 11:46

Okay, I will. I think we may even have some already - I will look. If not, I'll go down there with a camera tomorrow.

Mind-you, we don't do most of the work in the studio, we do most of that at home - and NO WAY am I revealing my appallingly messy desk - complete with Lotte's very scruffy (but she loves it) cardboard box at my left elbow. She likes to help you know - she snores dreadfully, more than any cat I've ever known, but I have got used to it over the years.

Jewel

19-07-2007, 13:04

No, no, I'm not staying quiet for that reason. I'm saying nothing as we are still designing "it" and I don't want to announce it then have anyone be disappointed. But I'm excited. I just proofed the final line-art :)
OHHHHHHHH it must be my Vampuss bag (to go with my Silver Dark Sister) with enchanted bones for beads or fringe! Thank you so much Karen!!! I will treasure it forever!!! :D

I have gone from ten cups a day many years ago to only two now
What size was your mug then? and, what size mug to you use now? *ROFLMAO*. Perhaps you can bring Alex some vanilla ice cream so he can eat that while you drink coffee.

I would love to see pictures of the studio and of "Cat in the Yard", please do share.

Queen of Pentacle

20-07-2007, 23:03

I am longing for this silver Bohemian, I really am.

Hope to see some more pics on your website!

Take care.

Skydancer

21-07-2007, 07:20

My Dearest Petite Lotte ~ (purrrrrrr)

I would love to meet you one day in your wonderful city. (meow) I am old and wise (12 yrs.) and big and strong (24#). I am, how do you say, a great catch. ;)

Send to me a photograph of yourself, my fee-lion, and I will send you one also in return. I look forward to hearing your lovely voice in the pale moon light and together hunting with you.

Yours, Most Truly (purrrrrrr .... purrrrrrr)
Monsieur Target

(High Master (3rd Degree) of the House of Cards in the City of Love) :heart:

baba-prague

21-07-2007, 07:40

Lotte deigned to dictate this -

"I has many, many admirers and I eez far aboz zem all. I am Siberian Shamanic Cat see, and I shake my feather-stick at no Tom."

"ps - tell eem to send barrel of PRAWN wiz 'is photo and I may reconsidurrrrr."

Right now she is helping Alex finish the Page of Wands. He says the fur in the keyboard is in fact a problem. Can't think why.

You may have seen this, but we still think it best sums up the Lotte and her admirers situation:

(oh, and haven't forgotten about photos of the studio, I will do this this weekend - we weren't down there yesterday except at midnight!)

Skydancer

21-07-2007, 08:08

My lovely Princess,

Here is a portrait of myself, taken by my Mistress a few years ago. I am now even more regal, and wide of girth.

Prawn? Pew. I have no use for such girly desires. Fresh farm mice are more to my liking. Very very big fresh mice. I am all Male, my Sweet; no steamed deep sea life forms for me!

However, if I must air mail one to you in order to win your affections I may look into it. *sigh* There is just no accounting for taste.

'ta ta for now' my Lovely. :heart:

Mon. Target

Briar Rose

24-07-2007, 08:51

6 Haunted Days

24-07-2007, 08:58

Where's the photo's Karen, do share, please?

Eastern Europe is sooooooooooo very beautiful. Your art is wonderful. Your artwork does surprise me because you seem to come up with one beautiful picture after another.

Did you mention on this thread somewhere about the size of this deck yet? It's 55 pages now, and that's a lot to go over.

I hope it is wider than longer. *shuffling*

Personally I very much hope it's the same size as their other decks. Perfect size!! Wider would be bad, very bad. Also this is going to be a borderless deck, so even more space for the marvelous art without going wider!

HearthCricket

24-07-2007, 09:01

You may have seen this, but we still think it best sums up the Lotte and her admirers situation...

I love that picture/card! Does this mean we can expect another deck in 2008 or 2009 called the Baroque Bohemian Fairy-Cats Oracle? :D

Ooops...made you both thud that time! Sorry about that! :angel:

baba-prague

24-07-2007, 09:54

I ought to say briefly that I'm taking time off ATF. But I will keep my commitment to post pictures of course - they'll be over at my blog as soon as I can do them (maybe a few days yet). Together with general musings about Prague, life and design as ever.

Edited to add - and as fate is obviously having a laugh about this Livejournal (where I have my main blog) is down today!
http://www.darrenstraight.com/blog/2007/07/24/365-main-datacenter-power-outage-brings-down-major-websites/

Ah well. So, the studio pictures will wait until I am back in Prague next week - hope they won't be an anti-climax after all this (but I did get a good one of Cat-in-the-Yard).

6 Haunted Days

25-07-2007, 06:51

Enjoy your time off! :) We all need a break from these things once in awhile.

6 Haunted Days

26-07-2007, 07:58

Has anyone checked out the 5 of Pents on their Myspace page? PHENOMENAL.

Skydancer

31-07-2007, 18:53

Yes - that card is ... something else!! Like a modern, (well, sort of) version of the Little Red Riding Hood tale. Wolf, anyone??!

This is the deck of dark secrets - what is the reference to "dark sister" I've seen here abouts??

Thanks in advance. :)
*S*

6 Haunted Days

01-08-2007, 07:20

Morning Skydancer! :::waving::::

Seems it's just you and me knocking around in here. Odd. Everyone seems to have jumped ship with this thread for quite some time now. I can here you clunking around in this huge empty space. :laugh:

*ahem* The Dark Sister name is one Karen was calling this deck before an actual name was decided on, kind of like a Dark Sister to the Victorian Romantic. I really prefer the name, don't you? Hints at the dark secrets this deck is promising.

How have you faired with your new books? Do tell! :) I recall you had gotten quite a few from Le Fanu.

Just last night I was thinking...."oh wouldn't a scene in Sorrows of Young Werther make a grand and dramatic 3 of Swords or 5 of Cups for the Bohemian Gothic". Yes the book/novella by Goethe isn't gothic, more the very passionate and dark German Romanticism movement. But dark nonetheless! Here is a cool site where you can get Werther to send you an email of his diary every day...
http://www.the-sorrows-of-young-werther.com/

Miss 6 ;)

karen0205

01-08-2007, 08:39

Ok, I'm jumping On Ship! How do I check out the 5 of Pents on their Myspace page? Sorry but I don't know how to get to those pages. I don't have a my space account. speaking of that, do you have to pay for those?

Karen

Mariana

01-08-2007, 08:47

http://baba-studio.livejournal.com/ is the page where Karen has posted some of the new cards, just scroll down. No payment needed.

Oh, and 6 Haunted Days, you're not alone here - I bet lots of people are still watching this thread, but just keeping quiet because there's not a whole lot to say until the deck has come out. ;)

Mariana

01-08-2007, 09:03

Oh, and I just saw that Karen has posted the Sun card a few minutes ago.

Skydancer

01-08-2007, 09:08

Howdy thyself, Miss 6!!
And Karen (2) and Mariana. Hey - we lived in Guam some while back, just off the Marianas Trench!! But I digress.

Checking out Sorrows of Young Werther -- and I've read 2 of LaFanu's stories so far. I had to get another book to get Carmilla!! And I have Uncle Silas, a book all by itself. I'll get In a Glass Darkly a bit later on. :)

So far, so good!!
I grew up on "gothic" mysteries set on the misty moors of Scotland and England and the like. Large mansions (begging the question; are there small mansions?) and horse drawn carriages, no telephones of course, and oh yes; The Secret Garden was a most loved story; I've always wanted to create a walled garden like that.

So - I did not totally realise that The Dark Sister was to be released about Halloween time - All Hallow's Eve, El Dia de los Muertos, Samhain. How cool is that?!!

I recently found a deck only of VR for $10. so I snatched it up to keep as a spare; this deck is going to get a good working out!!

Waiting patiently for Karen (#1) !! to return to our threads with updates. I do so wish I could sit in on one of their "sessions." Look at the story boards. Put in my (our) 2 cents worth. It would just about be worth the plane ticket over there!!! :party:

Later then ~
*S*

Oh! I see we posted at the same time! I'll go check it out now!!

Skydancer

01-08-2007, 09:20

Oops - I've been on two different blogs about the BGT it seems. I hadn't seen the 5 of Pentacles until just now. The one where I mentioned the wolf -- that's the 2 of Cups!!

The Sun is fabulous!!

*S*

la-luna

01-08-2007, 09:25

HearthCricket

01-08-2007, 10:04

o dear what a disturbing sun card - made me think of the boy in the Omen (original one second film where he is at the military academy ) ( or even the first one riding on his little bike right before making his adoptive mother drop down the staircase)

Yes, he reminds me of the one riding his bike through the hallways in the Shining. lol Creepy!

I love the 5 of Pentacles. The mother's haughty look shows too much pride to ask for help, which is at her fingertips.

The Page of Wands is very calmly haunting. These children really do remind me of the darkness in fairytales. I keep going back to that "Hush" episode of Buffy the Vampire Slayer about the fairytales, as well as other episodes that focused on young children as being the baddies. And, of course, The Turn of the Screw! Which I may have to watch today.....

Skydancer

01-08-2007, 13:11

Oh doesn't he though?? Wretched little creature...

:)

Oh - HC! Also sometime read The Screwtape Letters. It's short and to the point. })

6 Haunted Days

01-08-2007, 13:25

Checking out Sorrows of Young Werther --

Be sure to look up the history of the phenomenon of the book itself! Men dressing just like the character, actually committing suicide, all that junk. :bugeyed:

Mariana

02-08-2007, 12:40

The Eight of Cups can now be admired on http://baba-studio.livejournal.com/ .

Skydancer

02-08-2007, 13:36

6 Haunted Days

02-08-2007, 13:44

Oh thank you!! 8 of cups ... I like it too!!

and Werther - yes, I guess it has a ... bit of a history!! ;)

I am SO getting into this Gothic thing! Even my son's wedding this weekend - they are in black tuxes and her mom and I are to wear black!! Told my son today that I'm coming in my "best Witches mode!!" Black blouse and long skirt, shoes, bracelets, necklaces (one of which will be a silver waxing moon another son made for me in HS!!), ribbons in my hair ... I am gonna have FUN!! :party: })

*hehe*
*S*

OOooo sounds dangerous, be sure to post a photo! ;) You're going to be gorgeous and :smoker: hot :laugh:

Black is what I wear 99% of the time. It can portray anything you want it too, any emotion or "feel" unlike any other colour. (I did wear nothing but black for about 15 years, but in recent years branched out to darker hues. I just feel most "me" and attuned to myself when in dark colours.)

As for the 8 of cups *sigh* All these locations look like my dream houses!

evelone

02-08-2007, 13:54

The Eight of Cups can now be admired on http://baba-studio.livejournal.com/ .

Thanks for posting the link, Mariana. The new card is supercool, and I'm just blown away by all the beautiful Prague doors Karen has posted in her livejournal.

It's nice to keep up with this deck as it progresses. I'm sure I'll love it when it's finally in my happy little hands.

Skydancer

02-08-2007, 13:55

Hi Miss 6!
I was just posting some comments over at the Studio blog -- then saw your post here!!!

You used to wear black then branched out to darker hues?? :D
Love it!!

I'm going back to basic black now myself. Used to be the color of happy events, and white the color of death. Somewhere it got switched around.

Thanks for the laugh!!!
*S* who has to get back to backing more (chocolate chip) meringues for the wedding.

Yes - the houses look just like places I want to be. *sigh*

But soon I can visit them in card form in my own "happy hands" and daydream. :)

6 Haunted Days

03-08-2007, 07:15

Hi Miss 6!
I was just posting some comments over at the Studio blog -- then saw your post here!!!

You used to wear black then branched out to darker hues?? :D
Love it!!

Don't you know? I was just wearing black until a darker colour came along ;)

I've been on livejournal for years and years (nocturnalxwitch) and that is where I first discovered and met the Baba folks! I guess posting the photo's at LiveJournal, they don't get as many pestering questions and requests to change the cards (of course I never made change suggestions, it never occured to me that was what she was posting them for!).

Mariana

04-08-2007, 16:11

The Eight of Cups can now be admired on http://baba-studio.livejournal.com/ .

And the most amazing Knight of Pentacles!

Pumpkin

05-08-2007, 12:38

Can we pre-order from Magic Realist Press?

I saw the set on Amazon for pre-order, but it will take longer to get then if I order direct from MRP.

babyJo

05-08-2007, 12:52

Can we pre-order from Magic Realist Press?

Not yet. I think they plan to take pre-order in Sept.

**can't wait!**
~Jo

6 Haunted Days

05-08-2007, 13:54

Can we pre-order from Magic Realist Press?

I saw the set on Amazon for pre-order, but it will take longer to get then if I order direct from MRP.

Yea like months longer! No thanks to that. Plus I am getting the Silver Edition, they won't offer that on Amazon.

Briar Rose

05-08-2007, 18:40

I am also wanting to buy the Silver Edition. Each day is an eternity to wait!

HearthCricket

05-08-2007, 18:42

I can't wait to try out this deck. Amazon says the date is October 15th, but I hope we can get it even a tad bit earlier, like October 1st. I really want to work with it and know it fairly well before Halloween hits!

Alta

05-08-2007, 20:11

hum, well they haven't even finished all of the cards, much less do all the revisions. And get them printed and packaged. They may do it but Hallowe'en isn't that far away in those terms. Remember the Gold BBCats earlier this year.

Annabelle

05-08-2007, 20:23

True, Marion. Somehow I'm guessing that a November or even December release is more likely - though I totally agree with HearthCricket that it would be lovely to have it in hand before Halloween. I just know that Magic Realist Press has been proven to value quality over speed of production!

Briar Rose

22-08-2007, 13:19

Amazon is taking pre-orders now.

6 Haunted Days

22-08-2007, 13:26

Yes, I think they've had pre-orders up for quite some time at Amazon. Though word of warning, if you pre-order there, you can wait months for them to ship! I am getting mine directly from Baba, because also I want the Silver Edition! :) And also I want it as fast as I can possibly get it. She mentioned possible bags with some Gothic Bohemian cards....sooooo.

I may put in a pre-order for the standard deck over at TarotGarden.

Edited to add: There just put in pre-orders for the deck and one for the deck/book set. This is one deck I know I am going to want many copies of as well an extra copy of the book!

Briar Rose

23-08-2007, 14:15

I agree. I am waiting to buy the deck from Karen. I can't wait for it to come out. I also want to Silver.

6 Haunted Days

03-09-2007, 23:14

Has everyone been keeping watch at the Baba Livejournal and the new cards that come up regularly?? No discussion here!

The engraving the Devil is being based on is one hardcore image!

The Wheel of Fortune is just dripping with atmosphere. That girl looks quite worried about the fortune being laid out in front of her in a dark cellar shop.

9 of Cups looks perfectly pleasurable and relaxing. The moonlight and wind pouring itself onto the drapes as he drinks some absinthe.

The Moon is exquistely sublime. The image immediatly invoked the passages in Mysteries of Udolpho of Emily St. Aubert's melancholy wanderings and musings in her chateau's backyard bordering the Garonne in Gascony.

The 3 of swords, I do love the image, just not as stoked about it as the others. I do love the road leading away into the shadows.

I so wish that many people hadn't jumped onto the cards Baba was posting with "suggestions" and whatnot about what they thought Karen/Alex should change, then she would still be posting them here and we could talk about them as they came up! :( I guess the people on Livejournal don't make the same annoying comments that led her to stop posting the new cards here.

Just disappointing I guess, as their other decks had these wonderful lively creation threads and this one is just dead in the water. And this being the deck that is so near and dear to my soul.

Miss 6

Annabelle

03-09-2007, 23:26

Yes, I've been following the deck's development on Karen's LJ too :)!

I have to say, I love all the cards I've seen so far. It's impossible to name a favorite . . . . honestly, they are all beautiful and haunting and dark, and the more I see, the more I believe that this deck will be PERFECT for me!

I totally understand why Karen had to stop posting new cards here in order to save her sanity . . . though I agree with you, 6HD, that it is disappointing that this thread has mostly died off.

.traveller.

03-09-2007, 23:45

6 Haunted Days

04-09-2007, 00:11

I've been checking her LJ for new cards too. That engraving is stunning, I look forward to seeing their rendition of it as a photograph. I am curious whether they will use models or more of a collage effect to duplicate the image. It should be interesting.

You know, just by reading between the lines, I think that more is going on within Karen's life than she speaks of and in context, this thread isn't a high priority. I wouldn't take it personally, she just has alot on her plate right now.

Oh yes, there is quite a few things going on in her life, no reading between the lines needed (she talks about them on her LJ). And she posts the new cards and discusses them on her LJ regularly , so I don't think it's lack of time etc. She did state cleary she wasn't going to post anymore scans on AT of the cards, and she stated why, so no I don't take it personally.

teomat

04-09-2007, 06:34

I so wish that many people hadn't jumped onto the cards Baba was posting with "suggestions" and whatnot about what they thought Karen/Alex should change, then she would still be posting them here and we could talk about them as they came up! :( I guess the people on Livejournal don't make the same annoying comments that led her to stop posting the new cards here.
True - I don't think it's right for people to expect them to change the deck just because an image doesn't work for them. But this is a discussion forum, and everyone should be able to say what they like and don't like about a deck. If everyone agrees how wonderful it is, where does the discussion go...?

baba-prague

04-09-2007, 06:42

6 Haunted Days

04-09-2007, 06:45

True - I don't think it's right for people to expect them to change the deck just because an image doesn't work for them. But this is a discussion forum, and everyone should be able to say what they like and don't like about a deck. If everyone agrees how wonderful it is, where does the discussion go...?

Very true! Thats what I love about creation type threads, the delving into the images and talking about how they take shape. I think Baba was more frusrtated with the actual inputs as in "you should change her hair colour/style" or things such as that. I know she mentioned having problems with it on other decks she shared on here. Baba explains it better than I do, the difference between what we are loving or hating about thecards as they progress as oppposed to actual input and nagging to change aspects of the cards some don't like.

I am not 100% in love with all the cards (only a couple). Ah well, when the deck is released and we have it in our greedy hands, hopefully there will be many interested in a study group! :)

baba-prague

04-09-2007, 07:17

I think somehow the thread just got off to the wrong start with some expectations set up (through no-one's fault) that it was a kind of a "design by committee" exercise. It became very awkward, even embarrassing, to keep saying, effectively, thanks, we are listening to your comments but no, we won't respond to all the "move this to here, change the colour to this, alter her face to that" type design requests. I really found it hard to say that repeatedly and in the end it felt very uncomfortable.

Why don't we want to respond to those sort of redesign suggestions? Well, if we did, the deck would, in our opinion, become a bland attempt to make everyone happy and that's not the intention at all. It's very useful to hear reactions, but no so useful to have to repeatedly not respond to the design ideas of many people. It's the difference between listening to an issue (which is great), and following a precise idea about a solution to it (not so great). Design forums discuss this often - I must find a link to such a discussion as it may well express it better than I can.

I think it will be a controversial deck and very much one that expresses something that Alex and I want to give voice to - we're fully aware that some of the images will be quite shocking in their own way. I suppose I should have predicted that the early images would provoke a lot of "please change this" type of reactions - but it just wasn't a good context or time for me to deal with those on a regular basis.

So, given that I had very little mental space to show the cards anyway this summer (due to personal concerns that it's not appropriate to go into here) it just seemed easier and quicker to move the whole thing to my blog. This isn't stopping anyone making any comments here of course - it's just that I prefer mostly to show the cards on my blog in a context that I think works better and is easier for me to respond to properly. Anyone can make comments on the blog - you're most welcome - you don't have to join LiveJournal. Anonymous comments are screened, but that's just because LJ is quite spammy and I want to remove the ads for Viagra etc! I don't remove any other comments (though one comment recently vanished when the author decided to remove it - I have no control over that and on LJ people do occasionally edit or delete their own comments).

As I said further up the thread, at some point we may show a whole series of the cards here, but not just for now.

Hope that clarifies things a bit!

baba-prague

04-09-2007, 07:21

By the way, I will try to post the images more regularly on the blog as the deck nears completion. I'm also working on the website.

Pre-orders are held up while we make final designs and arrangements for the free pure silk beaded bag that we HOPE will come with the Silver edition. This has taken ages and has only happened at all through the brilliant help and efforts of an AT-er - who shall remain anonymous until we can tell the whole story :) Once we know exactly what the whole package will contain we will open pre-orders. Fingers crossed that the bag works out because if it does it will probably be the nicest addition to a deck that we've offered so far.

caridwen

04-09-2007, 07:42

I have just looked at the live journal and the cards do look amazing! I love the Three of Swords - I wonder if she has just pierced the bird's heart with a pin in order to cast a spell? The Nine of Cups is a man about to drink a potion that gives him exactly what he has always desired. I don't know if that is everlasting life, youth, courage, intelligence but it looks as though he has gone down a very dark road to get it. Each card draws you into a story, it seems very well done.:)

teomat

04-09-2007, 08:23

EarthAngel2911

04-09-2007, 08:29

baba-prague

04-09-2007, 08:46

Yes...Looking back through this thread, it did sort of turn into a 'free for all' discussion on what each card 'should' look like.

Hope my comment wasn't taken as a criticism, but it always more interesting to hear different viewpoints than just endless gushing. And with the comments about the 'drag-queens', I'm glad your deck has some balls to it!

Unfortunately I surf at work and my company has a internet block on blogsites, so I won't be able to see any of your images. I'll just have to rely on some very eloquent and detailed descriptions from my fellow AT-ers! :D

No, I didn't take it as criticism! But I hope showing things on the blog solved the issue - and it certainly seems lively. The website should be up fairly soon (if I manage to get my head around the Flash menus I'm using) which will make seeing the cards a lot easier.

Drag queens? Well, I've always felt that the Gothic plays around with gender conventions in an interesting way. Plus, well, over the years I've known one or two drag queens - one of whom we nearly built a deck around years ago. You might also put it down to a small homage to Grayson Perry, many of whose attitudes to art and the art world I really agree with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grayson_Perry

I hope the deck does have balls - I think we've made some fairly brave decisions but we have put so much into this one that we just want it to be as powerful as possible.

BTW I LIKE that Queen of Wands myself, however you view him or her. I was surprised that s/he provoked such reaction but well, it's not always the images you see as controversial that prove to be so.

Okay, off to work on the website.

Aulruna

04-09-2007, 08:48

I'm also following the LJ, as I'm really looking forward to this deck.

However, I'm not missing a discussion ... this is great when you try new concepts or test initial reactions ... after that, it might hamper the artistic flow if you don't tune out "outside noise", or at least reduce it to a level that feels inspiring, and not like you're creating someone else's deck.
At least, these where my experiences as an author.

baba-prague

04-09-2007, 08:50

Hi Karen. I've been so interested in this deck as it's evolved. Of course, I'm going to purchase both the regular edition (with the book) and the Silver Edition! :D But I'll be the first to admit that I'm not well versed in Goth literature or movies.

I was just wondering if within your companion book you'll have references to pieces of work, whether art pieces or stories, that inspired the card. And maybe a suggested reading list? :) I would love the opportunity to get the full effect of this unique deck!

Yes, the book will be a bit shorter than previous books I think but it will have a good bibliography and lots of relevant quotes from stories that have helped to inspire the deck. We won't be saying so much about the art behind it as mostly we've used "cabinet cards" and also very old photographic postcards, about which we know very little (sometimes the studio name is on the back, but that's about it).

The images are in most cases made by us from a large range of elements (with the exception of The Devil card, which is based closely on an original engraving) so they aren't really derived from originals in the way that the Victorian Romantic cards are.

Scion

04-09-2007, 08:50

this is great when you try new concepts or test initial reactions ... after that, it might hamper the artistic flow if you don't tune out "outside noise", or at least reduce it to a level that feels inspiring, and not like you're creating someone else's deck.
At least, these where my experiences as an author.

I think that's exactly right Aulruna. Tuning out our own noise is hard enough without allowing for other voices. And Art by committee usually ends up looking like a port-o-potty. :)

Briar Rose

04-09-2007, 09:41

Pre-orders are held up while we make final designs and arrangements for the free pure silk beaded bag that we HOPE will come with the Silver edition.

How will you let us know when you are accepting pre-orders for the Silver edition?

I am counting down the days. Thank you!!!!!!!

baba-prague

04-09-2007, 09:46

I'll post here. The whole hold-up is the bag actually. I just don't want to say anything definite until we actually know it's going to happen. A bit fraught!

HearthCricket

04-09-2007, 09:51

I have been watching the journal, too, and I keep getting more and more excited about this deck. I will be ready for it, whenever it comes out! It gives me more time to read some good Gothic lit in preparation to get in the mood! And the silver edition sounds gorgeous! I expect loads of fun with this one, like all my other MR decks! I am really excited that we are getting a very classy Gothic Tarot. There isn't much out there, so thank you Karen and Alex!

annik

04-09-2007, 10:12

And the idea of a silver edition is quite original! Usually, decks comes in gold edition.

baba-prague

04-09-2007, 10:58

Yes, we just thought that as this deck is essentially all in shades of blue/grey/black (with just splashes of some other colours) that silver would work better than gold. It's going to be wonderful to see how the silver works, I'm really looking forward to that.

6 Haunted Days

04-09-2007, 11:16

A question to others who have ordered direct from MRP before - For the pre-orders do you have to pre-pay or just pay when the decks are available to ship?

Jewel

04-09-2007, 15:27

A question to others who have ordered direct from MRP before - For the pre-orders do you have to pre-pay or just pay when the decks are available to ship?
I leave them my credit card number, but they don't charge until they ship the deck. I've never had a problem.

baba-prague

04-09-2007, 16:18

Ah, no, we can't actually take credit cards direct, we do it all through Worldpay and Paypal. I suppose we ought to take credit cards but at this distance I've always wondered how to do it safely other than by phone (maybe now we are in the days of Skype that would be possible, hmm).

For the BBCats Gold we opened pre-orders quite early and then the deck was delayed when the printer lost the cardstock (really, really weird, we have never quite worked that out but we think they may have forgotten it was ours and used it by accident). So this time, so that no-one pays then waits ages, we intend to open pre-orders as late as possible, more or less once the deck is at the printers. Plus we have to work out the silk bag thing - it's been quite a saga but should be worth it if we can make it happen.

I have a feeling that the Silver edition may go quite quickly - we are down to less than 50 of the Victorian Gold now - so maybe I can work out some sort of reserve system - maybe we can set up something on the shop where people can pay $5 or some nominal amount that can be taken off the final order. But it might be complicated to then work out who has reserved and who hasn't. Well, if all else fails we will just make sure we announce the pre-orders here and on the blog first.

shadowdancer

05-09-2007, 01:25

thanks for that Karen. I think everyone, including yourselves have realised this is going to be a talked about deck for some time, and I can see it being more popular than either of the previous limited prints.

Good luck

Davina

annik

05-09-2007, 08:47

I prefer silver over gold anytime. And it is nice to see a deck with a silver edition for a change!
I hope the printing will be less troublesome this time!

Skydancer

05-09-2007, 10:49

I am SO looking forward to this deck coming out, even though I don't know how I'm going to read with the darn thing!!!

And silver will be perfect. Silver and the dark mood. Perfect.

Did I mention that I think it's perfect??

*S*

Jewel

05-09-2007, 10:52

Ah, no, we can't actually take credit cards direct, we do it all through Worldpay and Paypal.
sorry for my mistake ...

So Karen ... any chance that the vampuss bag I have been pestering you about for months might come out somewhere around the time this deck does??? I sooooooo want a vampuss bag!

Emily

05-09-2007, 10:56

I've stopped looking at the scans now - I've seen enough to know I'll like the deck and I want the other cards to be a surprise. :)

Skydancer

05-09-2007, 16:33

Emily -- I'm with you on this one. I want to be surprised also!

And it's going to be great. I just know it.

*S*
:)

baba-prague

07-09-2007, 13:19

I've just put this up at the shop (see advertising thread) as it is our initial choice for tote bags (it will take us a little longer to make tarot bags and wristlets, though the prints have been done).

As this is one of the first times I've shown cards (minus the titles at the bottom please note - the titles shown are just for information, the card titles look quite different) together, I thought it would be nice to show it here.

http://baba-store.com/BohoGothic/

coyoteblack

07-09-2007, 13:26

wow pretty in a dark gothic sort of way of course.

baba-prague

07-09-2007, 13:32

Thanks! As these are options for tote bags (as in, large prints which you will carry out and about) we've tended to stick to the rather more romantic images - I honestly can't see many people walking around with the Bohemian Gothic Death card on their wrist (though two people on my blog claim they will ;) ). I hope we can add a few more options as we go along. Of these, I would guess that the Wheel of Fortune - the tarot reader scene - will have the broadest appeal. Though I may well be wrong!

Baroli

07-09-2007, 13:49

The cards are gorgeous and dark and very very talkative (at least to me they are, LOL). I can't wait Karen. I particularly like the Lovers card. It is so ominous and yet delicious and dark, very sensual. The card appeals to my darker sense. Love it.

Baroli

HearthCricket

07-09-2007, 15:55

I love seeing the cards together like that, Karen. What an impression it makes! So incredibly Gothic to the bones!! I have goosebumps just looking at it! I am so excited about it! You both certainly know how to create magic. I love the Wheel of Fortune and the Strength card, Moon card, The World. They are so gorgeous, but your Strength card is a all-time favourite of mine. Must be all those years of watching Dark Shadows as a little girl... :D

07-09-2007, 18:29

Do you have ISBN's yet Baba, particularly for the silver, and will all the decks come out at the same time or will the silver be later? Thanks.

baba-prague

07-09-2007, 18:36

The silver may not have an ISBN as it won't be distributed through bookshops. We just won't have enough. We will sell it via a few specialists - probably Tarot Garden of course - but apart from that it will only be available from us.

I think that both versions are likely to come out at much the same time. In fact, we intend to pack the Silver ourselves (we were just not happy with the packing mistakes on the VR Gold) so it may even come out first by a day or two. Fingers crossed.

07-09-2007, 18:40

ah, thanks.

HOLMES

07-09-2007, 21:48

it looks good,,
i need to see some scans on aeclectic or something so i can see more cards.
comes out in november i think eh ?
edited to add
err october the 15, woot

jema

08-09-2007, 04:26

i was JUST about to go to baba-store and make an order for the VR deck but decided to wiat till i can get this one too :-p

it looks so lovely karen

Alta

08-09-2007, 06:36

Hi jema!!!!

Yes, with the publication date of the Gothic getting closer, better to combine postage and get the two at once.

Great to see you fluttering by. :)

Marion

6 Haunted Days

08-09-2007, 14:07

Yes, I am offcially worried now, the date of release is looming and as I am off from work with this surgery/recovery, not sure I am going to have the $$!!!! :( Extremely upset about it......why now?!

I shall frantically try to work something out. The timing absolutely sucks for me.

Miss 6

baba-prague

08-09-2007, 14:10

I can assure you that it will be late. Though I hope not very. As some of you know, Alex and I spent a lot of time and energy on urgent family matters this summer and so we are behind. But we don't have too many cards still to go. Mind-you, when The Devil takes the best part of a week to make...

I hope your recovery is quick - but maybe a dark deck is not the best thing in any case until you're well? I think these cards will be quite confrontational (or emotional, or demanding - not sure the best way to describe it) in use.

HearthCricket

08-09-2007, 14:22

I can assure you that it will be late. ... I think these cards will be quite confrontational (or emotional, or demanding - not sure the best way to describe it) in use.

I think this will be a really fun and challenging deck to use during a bad snowstorm or blizzard, here in New England, when everything is blue and white and dark, and the electricity goes out, and you do everything by candlelight and firelight, and your hands are wrapped in fingerless gloves and a pile of gothic books are at your side, and the silver edition matches the ice sticking to your windows, and what is that shadowy thing in the corner....

:D

baba-prague

08-09-2007, 14:32

I think this will be a really fun and challenging deck to use during a bad snowstorm or blizzard, here in New England, when everything is blue and white and dark, and the electricity goes out, and you do everything by candlelight and firelight, and your hands are wrapped in fingerless gloves and a pile of gothic books are at your side, and the silver edition matches the ice sticking to your windows, and what is that shadowy thing in the corner....

:D

You are one BRAVE woman. This deck sometimes gives me nightmares (of a very strange kind) already - and it's been summer. I may just post The Devil and ask if you will really read by candelight. If you do, well, yes, expect something shadowy in the corner and don't say I didn't warn you ;)

baba-prague

08-09-2007, 14:33

Oh and I guarantee that The Empress is enough to make you avoid mirrors for a week.

HearthCricket

08-09-2007, 14:38

You are one BRAVE woman. This deck sometimes gives me nightmares (of a very strange kind) already - and it's been summer. I may just post The Devil and ask if you will really read by candelight. If you do, well, yes, expect something shadowy in the corner and don't say I didn't warn you ;)

LOL Yes, but you said this deck is supposed to make us uncomfy and freaked out and so I am getting in the mood by reading Gothic lit and reading from the Thoth, and nightmares? Who has nightmares (she, who didn't get to sleep until after 4am, today!) I even ordered a silver candelabra for this deck. Now how is that for dedication?? :D

TygrEyes

08-09-2007, 14:49

"I may just post The Devil ....."

"Oh and I guarantee that The Empress is enough to make you avoid mirrors for a week."

Baba - you are such a tease! I can't wait for this deck, and I too LOVE the strength card.

baba-prague

08-09-2007, 15:00

Honestly, in this case I'm not teasing, just waiting for Alex to finish. I will just see if he's finally there with The Devil.

baba-prague

08-09-2007, 15:46

Actually, not the best version to show as it's hard to see the wings on this one. I may have to do some work to make it more obvious on screen:

http://baba-studio.livejournal.com/263586.html

I can't really say "enjoy". Instead, well - please pause and think a little. It's based closely on an actual Victorian engraving (scroll down to see that).

HearthCricket

08-09-2007, 15:58

I love it. Creepy as anything (what is in that syringe?) and moving, and to me, very traditional RW meaning. This is when it gets fun. What you said it means, and what I see it as. The minute I saw it I remembered a scene from Buffy the Vampire Slayer where her boyfriend was paying for female vamps to suck on him, just for the thrill, but not to kill him. Instead of seeing an easy way out, I see a relationship gone awry, dependency, the woman basically clinging and begging for the drug from the Devil, as well as whatever else they had been doing beforehand! Escapism, definitely, but with a high price. And complete dependency and abandonment. And the Devil knows this, and relishes it! And don't cross her, or you might be her next victim. What a stare she gives us!!

Yep. I can read this card by candlelight. Just don't expect me to sleep without my stuffed animals, that night! :D

firefrost

08-09-2007, 17:56

HearthCricket - I'm looking forward to seeing your set-up for this deck. That silver candelabra sounds fantastic.

I'm another one who can't wait for publication. I bought both VR's and I think I'll be buying both these "Dark Sister" decks as well.

Lovely!

Hils :)

Annabelle

08-09-2007, 18:23

Shudder. That's one creepy, scary Devil card! I absolutely love it :). It gives me chills.

greycats

08-09-2007, 20:37

faunabay

11-09-2007, 10:53

Leo62

11-09-2007, 11:04

What a great, creepy card! It's addiction incarnate.

FantasyWorld

11-09-2007, 11:23

Well, I have pre-ordered this deck and can't wait to get! Love the bags too})

faunabay

12-09-2007, 12:32

Well, I have pre-ordered this deck and can't wait to get! Love the bags too})

What is it up for pre-order now?????????? Last time I looked it wasn't yet. Yikes! I better go check!!!!!

OK, where did you pre-order it? Magic Realist still doesn't have it as available. Oh, did you pre-order it at Tarot Garden??

baba-prague

12-09-2007, 12:41

The Silver is still not on pre-order. But we are getting really close as we seem to have finally finalised the bag that will come with it - big YAY as it's taken ages. It will be a beauty I think (we felt that if we did a bag with the deck it had to be a good quality and slightly special bag).

So - getting there.

baba-prague

12-09-2007, 12:45

ps - the Victorian Romantic is nearly all gone now so I would guess that this deck may go over a few months - but hard to tell. The great thing is that by doing a bag, not a journal, we will be able to charge lower shipping, so that's a big plus (we didn't realise how much the journal would add to shipping costs internationally - one learns!)

Personally I think the bag is good enough to use as a small evening bag even if you don't want it as a tarot bag.

Pictures soon I think. Well, I hope - it's been SO long getting there that I am nervous to show it until all is really on its way.

Aulruna

12-09-2007, 12:57

Oh, I'm really getting impatient now! WANT WANT WANT!!!!

Jewel

12-09-2007, 16:19

The Devil appears to be the one suffering. S/he knows the difference between real bliss and the hypodermic kind even as the needle heads for home. Been there, done that. S/he's too decadent to be Miltonic, but there's a sort of echo, nevertheless. How many victims in the scene? I make it two. If I had to decide between conscious misery and drugged dependance, the choice would be too hard. :confused:
I so agree with this. What a deliciously creepy card! I cannot wait for this deck to come out, from all the cards I have seen it is everything it has promised to be and then some.

Me thinks I will wil be pulling out my shadow work book when I get this silver beauty in my hands. It will be a very scary ride to the dark side, no holds barred and a true encounter with my shadow side.

Karen ... any news on the the Vampuss bag? ~bats eyes prettily as she continues to beg for this bag~ ... you know the one ... the Vampuss coming down the tower wall and all ... don't hate me, I just cannot help myslef.

baba-prague

12-09-2007, 17:00

I so agree with this. What a deliciously creepy card! I cannot wait for this deck to come out, from all the cards I have seen it is everything it has promised to be and then some.

Me thinks I will wil be pulling out my shadow work book when I get this silver beauty in my hands. It will be a very scary ride to the dark side, no holds barred and a true encounter with my shadow side.

Karen ... any news on the the Vampuss bag? ~bats eyes prettily as she continues to beg for this bag~ ... you know the one ... the Vampuss coming down the tower wall and all ... don't hate me, I just cannot help myslef.

I think the Vampuss bag may happen :) but it will be a little while. But we may do the "Dinner with the Count" scene first.

FantasyWorld

12-09-2007, 18:12

What is it up for pre-order now?????????? Last time I looked it wasn't yet. Yikes! I better go check!!!!!

OK, where did you pre-order it? Magic Realist still doesn't have it as available. Oh, did you pre-order it at Tarot Garden??

Bad 'Ol Amazon})

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1905572069/002-7400508-0681623

evelone

12-09-2007, 18:25

I think the Vampuss bag may happen :) but it will be a little while. But we may do the "Dinner with the Count" scene first.

And then maybe Lucy coming back to the crypt with the kitten dangling from one paw?

Doesn't matter - I'm soooo getting a Vampuss bag. And Bohemian Gothic bag, and a... better start saving my pennies... (trots off to get a second job.)

6 Haunted Days

12-09-2007, 19:36

Bad 'Ol Amazon})

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1905572069/002-7400508-0681623

I've got the standard pre-ordered at TG, I won't touch Amazon as I would like my deck before the new year!

Also I am getting the Silver, and am soooooo excited about the bag that is coming with it, this is just getting better and better.....and bestest!!!

Seriously, this may sound silly, but with the problems and tramua I have suffered over the last 3 weeks (w/ more weeks to come) knowing I had this deck to look forward has made me so happy in many a despairing moment!

I know many mention this deck and using it for shadow work or looking at "darker" issues...but for me this is a deck that speaks to who I am, in my deepest soul....day by day. It's where my imagination is and where my thoughts are all the time. It's where I find beauty, meaning and a sublime love. It's just who I am, what I identify with. Lighter, sunnier decks....now those are the ones that make me uncomfortable (it's switched around for me) and I find them "harder" and more challenging. This deck is going to feel like slipping on my favourite shirt or my most worn in shoes. It will feel like home.

So. yes, I am most anxiously awaiting this work of art!

Miss 6

Embla

17-09-2007, 09:26

Will a journal be available for separate purchase to go with the Bohemian Gothic? I would love to have a journal each for the Victorian Romantic, the Baroque Bohemian Cats and the Bohemian Gothic! Keeping my fingers crossed.

Jewel

17-09-2007, 11:03

I think the Vampuss bag may happen :) but it will be a little while. But we may do the "Dinner with the Count" scene first.
~smiles~ thank you. I will try my hardest to be very patient, and keep my fingers crossed for one day having the Vampuss crawling down the tower wall. In the meantime I will pull out my Vampuss book and look for the dinner with the count scene. Thank you for your patience with me and for considering my request :)

baba-prague

17-09-2007, 11:24

Dinner with the Count is actually my favourite spread in the book. I wonder if we will be able to do some bags for Halloween?

Anyway, any minute now (she says adjusting Photoshop pictures with one hand and typing with the other) we will begin listing Bohemian Gothic tarot bags and wristlets. I am really excited by how these have come out in satin - but worried about making enough now. Lots to do!

Oh Embla, good question but we aren't planning Bohemian Gothic journals because we've arranged to have a silk bag (black silk satin, scarlet silk lining and black glass bead fringing - yummy) instead. We thought really long and hard about this and decided that the bag is so much lighter to send that it's more of a bargain for people. But we might be able to do some sort of very limited edition journal, maybe something fabric-wrapped or spiral bound. I will think more about the possibilities. In general though I think most people will like to have a bag - and it's such an elegant little bag that I think you could actually carry it as an rather gothic evening bag.

HearthCricket

17-09-2007, 11:30

I know how much you love fabric and designing, Karen! You must be in heaven with these bags!! They sound gorgeous and hauntingly wonderful!!

Rethinking my Halloween costume, now!! :D

Mariana

17-09-2007, 11:56

In general though I think most people will like to have a bag - and it's such an elegant little bag that I think you could actually carry it as an rather gothic evening bag.
Are there any plans for gothic shoulder bags, beside wristlet bags? I'd love to get a combination...

Embla

17-09-2007, 12:03

As always, thanks for the quick reply Karen! I knew you weren´t planning on doing a journal that went with the kit this time, and I think you´re absolutely right that more people will prefer a bag over a journal in a kit, plus the bag you are describing sounds thrilling!

But then there will be people like me that will want a bag AND a journal LOL, so if you decide to work on an accompanying journal that can be purchased separately for those who are willing to pay the extra shipping I think many would be delighted!

By the way I am so curious to see the items you are about to list in your shop, can´t wait!

baba-prague

17-09-2007, 12:16

The bags with the deck have taken an age to get right - they are mass-produced (as we needed 500 which is a bit beyond our abilities) but all hand-finished by us.

You are SO right too - my first ever paid work was making crochet dresses for a shop run by very "groovy chick" who had been Mick Jagger's girlfriends. Gosh, that dates me! But I just love anything to do with fabric, always have.

baba-prague

17-09-2007, 12:18

Are there any plans for gothic shoulder bags, beside wristlet bags? I'd love to get a combination...

Yes, already being made! We have them in the new satin prints so they are now dry-cleanable, which is a nice little improvement. We try to keep responding to feedback and suggestions.

Later (December with luck) we will have large messenger bags with all the prints - well, all that prove popular that is. We can do lots more now that we have the new printing technique.

Here is the wristlet - I think this would be a great bag to use for an evening out. Guaranteed to start conversations!

Skydancer

17-09-2007, 12:35

Karen - when you say that you are hand-finishing the bags yourselves, you mean the beading? My goodness - I am almost looking more forward to the wonderful tarot pouch than I am the deck ... and that's saying a lot!! :D

*S*

baba-prague

17-09-2007, 12:58

No! Our fingers would fall to bits if we beaded 500 bags lol. We will put in the metallic (silver) cords and the Czech beads (silver, red, black we think) at the end of the cords. There is talk of adding a charm but it might be too OOT, not sure until we try.

The beading is a sort of Art Nouveau style - not a straight edge but sort of in waves. Hmm, I need to take a photo.

You can get a glimpse here, though this is a prototype- and you can't see the scarlet silk-satin lining, which I think is what makes the bag so gothic:

http://baba-studio.livejournal.com/260226.html

Skydancer

17-09-2007, 13:38

Karen -- sorry to keep bugging you! -- you had black cat buttons or beads on one of your sites a while back. Are those availabe for purchase? Or were they for a special project of yours???

Would dearly love some! (and I'm not the only one ;))

*S*

caridwen

18-09-2007, 16:56

Just noticed that Tarot Garden are taking preorders for this...I asked for the Silver edition ages ago...when can we order directly from you?:)

baba-prague

18-09-2007, 17:21

Quick one as I have been meaning to get to bed for the last half hour.

So - pre-orders will open at the end of this month I think. We will send around a notice for newsletter subscribers and also put a post here in the "advertising" section.

I have to admit I forgot to answer the question about the black-cat beads. Sorry! Yes, they are gorgeous. If you really think people would like some I can put them on the site. Maybe in sets of six or ten or something? It might be crazy to post something like that so perhaps I can say that they can only be added to another order? I'll try to work it out. They are quite large and chunky (sort of small coin sized and quite thick) so they have a little shipping weight, not like seed beads or something. Maybe this discussion should be taken up in the ad section somehow though?

Okay - must get some sleep. More tomorrow!

FantasyWorld

18-09-2007, 19:58

Just ordered a Lovers wristlet...so excited!

SO looking forward to this deck and wristlet})

shadowdancer

19-09-2007, 11:10

I have just ordered the wristlet and tarot bag both in Strength design and look forward to seeing them! (also added a VR bag as well for the gold tarot)

Not sure what to use the wristlet for yet, but it looks a reasonable size for every day use.

As an aside Karen, do we earn points still when purchasing through your site? If so, I think I will be using them towards the Silver edition deck when it is released.

Good luck with the final few weeks.

Davina

Skydancer

19-09-2007, 11:34

~ ~ Miss 6 ~ ~

You said something about this deck speaking to your soul on a day to day basis. Not just El dia de los muertos, not just Samhain. Not just "dress up day" ... or dark shadow work. I wanted to say, "Yes! I know just what you mean! (as much as anyone can know what another means, especially in a message board) -

"Delicious darkness" - but!! I also see so much brightness here. Look!! The moon light shines through the clouds. Look!! This person has a choice. Can she see it? Can she grab hold of it? Look! Try! Hope, rescue, fear of a 'bad person,' learning by experience, it's all here; just look. And grab hold of the helping hand that is extending towards you by showing you an example of what can happen if you don't pay attention.

*S*

baba-prague

19-09-2007, 11:35

Yes, I got the order Davina, thanks for that. The wristlet is a nice size - I actually wondered if some people might use it for their cards when they take their deck out somewhere. It would nicely hold cards, a phone, keys, etc. Of course it can simply be a striking (should start a few conversations!) bag/purse.

Yes, we still do points. In fact we are having a double points day on Friday (if I get it all set up) which I promised to do ages ago. Edited to add - no, it will be Saturday! The points are quite good, they do mount up.

These card images are wonderful on the new satin. But I just want to see them on CARDS now too. A lot still to do - the recent werewolf image took ages, but we had to have a werewolf in the deck, didn't we?

shadowdancer

19-09-2007, 11:48

o heck....lol should have held off and ordered on Friday :)
:)

I looked at all the Gothic designs available and other than the tarot reader (which I have in the kittie tarot bag) Strength really did stand out. Yep should get a few comments for sure.

Hope you are not staying up until the early hours too often though to get this finished. We need you to be refreshed for all the comments and questions it will not doubt bring when released :D

I think the reasons I am looking forward to this more than the other decks are:

If I wear jewellery (which is not often) I wear silver not gold. This includes rings as well as pendants. Thus the silver will be intriguing to see.

I am getting more tuned with darker / intense decks of late, and would like to see something other than the Vargo deck. Although it is a terrific deck, having seen your cards, it now appears to have less dimension to it by comparison.

Davina

GlamourPuss

20-09-2007, 06:34

This looks an amzing deck and one I am sure I will be pre-ordering! The silver one no doubt! Lol!
For me the Strength card is simply perfect. Stunning. May have to have a couple of 'goodies' with that on in the very near future.
Well done Baba!
Am in a bit of a black hole at the moment so it's probably a good thing this deck won't be available for a little while-need more pink, fluffy cards for the mo!
But hopefully once this has passed.........dim those lights, pass those beautiful Gothic cards and let's explore those dark shadows!

6 Haunted Days

20-09-2007, 22:23

Yay!!!! :D

Just read the newsletter and the Silver edition is going to be $49.50 and the book only $5 when you pre-order.....this means there is much hope I shall be able to get this with no waiting and if I am lucky, the Wheel of Fortune wristlet!! I was worried the Silver was going to be higher....so this is great news.

You can bet I will be there faster than 2 shakes of a lambs tail come beginning of October when the pre-order is opened.

This made my week.

shadowdancer

21-09-2007, 01:38

Astraea Aurora

21-09-2007, 04:29

Well folks, it's less than a month ahead!!! I hope so very much Karen and Alex can make it till October 15.

Guess what, I stopped breathing when I saw the Hermit. He is so intense! Wow, I'm speechless.

Bye, Astraea Aurora :grin: (eagerly waiting ...)

firefrost

21-09-2007, 04:40

Totally agree about the Hermit - wow!

Hils :)

Embla

21-09-2007, 05:46

So I take it the newsletter is out? I haven´t received it..... :(

baba-prague

21-09-2007, 05:55

The newsletter is almost out. I tried to send it yesterday and the mailer system wasn't working. So I just put up the weblink on my blog. But today the mailer seems fine and I tested it half an hour ago, so newsletter is go! I think :)

There are a few good specials as usual so I do want to try to get it to everyone safely.

Update - okay, I just pressed the button (after yet another test, this mailer makes me a bit neurotic) and it seems to be going off fine. So - on its way across Europe to you Embla!

_____

And another update. LOTS of these are being returned by spam blockers at the server end. It's really getting hard to get bona fide stuff through (which is irritating as I don't know how many ads for Viagra do make it to my inbox!)

So - here is the web version. I will keep wrestling with the email but it's actually exactly the same. I hope it's enjoyable:
http://www.magic-realist.com/Newsletter/Autumn2007.htm

Embla

21-09-2007, 06:40

Hoooray!!!!!! I got it, and it looks wonderful! The specials are especially great this time, great job Karen and Alex. Planning my purchases for September 22nd! Hope your website won´t break down LOL.

la-luna

21-09-2007, 06:47

I was wondering Karen, will you also be making glicee prints from the cards of the Bohemian Gothic Tarot?

i fo one would be very interested :D (bad for my budget but good for my happynesslevels )

6 Haunted Days

21-09-2007, 07:32

Have just had a look at the newly set up site with card images. My oh my!

Heck this is one seriously good looking deck. Just like with my beloved Kaos I think there are potentially so many ways of looking at what is going on. There may not appear much initially happening, but think for 2 mins - you will be surprised at how much comes tumbling out of your mind.

6 of swords is very haunting and is one of the best depictions I have seen of this particular card.

will be a long 6 weeks or so here! :) :)

Davina

Oh yes! When I saw the revamped (and obviously still being worked on) pages at the GB site I was beside myself with awe and joy. When I saw the Hermit I was speechless :bugeyed: He is my soul and personality card and before I ever knew that it was always my favourite card.....this one is so intense....seen from the front...approaching you. You can see his soul and burning illumination in his eyes. I imagine he is walking out of the Black Forest....or......wow these cards have so much power to set my imagination racing.

I saw quite a few cards I had never seen before. 5 of Swords, the Empress, the Hanged Man Ace of Cups, 5 of Cups, 6, 8 and 10 of Swords....10 is just completely off the charts in power, the image is alive, that sunset is incredible.

I was so excited over the new images I couldn't sleep :laugh: Really, since I've been so anxiously awaiting this deck since March....6 weeks or so seems like nothing. It's just around the corner!

A point I kept forgetting to mention- awhile ago someone mentioned that silver seemed more shimmering and reflective than gold and that's not just a personal observation....it's fact! Shoot can't find it now, but silver is like double the reflection power of gold. I myself have never worn yellow gold. Only sterling, white gold and platinum (I have TONS of jewelry). So I think this silver edition is going to be absolutely stunning and magical. It's really going to glow.

morticia monroe

21-09-2007, 08:09

I've never purchased the gold edition of any deck. I am also a "silver girl", being very fair of complexion with dark, dark hair. Gold just doesn't work well for me.

I've been admiring this deck for a time, and although it looked lovely, dark, and intriguing I had no intentions of ordering, as I have reached a point in my collecting of decks where I am quite content with my present trove. But I'll tell you what changed my mind.

Yesterday I received what I contentedly told myself would be my final (at least for some time) deck purchase, the Baroque Bohemian Cats. My only other MRP deck is the Victorian Romantic. As I inspected the deck, I was thrilled to find that, like my beloved VR, I loved EVERYTHING about it. Beautiful photos, fantastic cardstock, and the entire deck was obviously well thought-out. It was then that I realized that everything I've heard about MRP is true: these people produce top-notch, high quality, SATISFYING decks. They deserve my dedication AND my dollars. It's not often anymore that I actually feel like I've gotten my money's worth from a purchase, but MRP delivers.

I'll be ordering the Silver Edition. In fact I can't wait to see them. And when I do, I'll also be ordering the tarot of Prague and the Fantastic Menagerie. I want ALL the tarot MRP has to offer.

6 Haunted Days

21-09-2007, 08:23

teomat

21-09-2007, 08:46

baba-prague

21-09-2007, 09:48

I like a lot of the cards in this deck, but I have to admit that I'm struggling with the images and their possible meanings. I know it's RWS-based and I can see some of the influences, but if I get this deck, I think I'll need to do a One Deck Wonder session so that it all sinks in.

Not that I'm complaining mind you... :D

Yes, I sort of agree. It's been quite difficult to decide how far to move away from RWS. I suppose I just didn't want a RWS clone but with ghosts in! But with cards like the Five of Swords, as a good example, the meaning is changed a lot from the traditional. Alex and I came to a joint decision that we like that the woman looks scared but also thrilled. Just who has defeated who in this scene? I may have been influenced a lot by the fact that I'm reading Marina Warner's "From the Beast to the Blond" but I think it's true that in much literature (and in fairytale) the relationship between woman and werewolf is somewhat ambiguous.

Whoops - for those of you who know Angela Carter you will see the influence there too!

So I suppose what I'm saying is that a card like this picks up the idea of defeat, humiliation, triumph and betrayal, but it deals with those themes in a different way from the RWS. There is a distinct overtone of what happens when the wild meets the "civilised" and for better or worse I don't think that's there at all in the RWS.

Hmm. I think in summary that maybe what I'm trying to express is that each card treats the same theme as its RWS version, but often in a different way. I mean, the very controversial Queen of Wands asks us to ask ourselves what we mean by a vibrant, sexy woman, rather than presenting us with an obvious example of one. So - shadow sides, not straight RWS and also not straight RWS with a dark twist.

HearthCricket

21-09-2007, 11:37

I love this card. It reminds me of Beauty and the Beast, when Beast shows his nails (rippped dress) and reminds Beauty that no matter how much she is getting comfortable around him, he is still a beast, and off he goes hunting each night. It gives you that feeling, like you said, when the tame meets the wild, as well as that on your edge, uncomfy feeling that the person you thought you knew, or the surroundings you thought were safe and familiar are not quite what they always seemed to be, afterall. And you have been taken off your guard. Lovely card!

Skydancer

21-09-2007, 11:46

Slightly off topic but since it was brought up ......

what IS the difference between the 1st and 2nd editions of Tarot of Prague??

Thanks in advance.
*S*

Sulis

21-09-2007, 11:49

Could we please stick to the topic of The Bohemian Gothic Tarot?

There are loads of threads about other Magic Realist Press decks, a quick search will bring them up.

Thanks

Sulis - co-moderator - Tarot Decks.

baba-prague

21-09-2007, 11:59

Slightly off topic but since it was brought up ......

what IS the difference between the 1st and 2nd editions of Tarot of Prague??

Thanks in advance.
*S*

Hmm, very off topic and I hope we don't irritate the mods. But a quick answer -

First edition had a book-binder cover, cards on thick cardstock (but not playing card stock). Very matt varnish and sepia backs. It also had two Death cards. I say "had" because we thought we were out of it, then discovered two boxfuls, and now seem to be almost out again. It won't be reprinted in that form.

Second edition has a tuckbox, is on more conventional playing card stock. Has a slightly shinier varnish and blue backs. It has only one Death card but an added Prudence card. It is also slightly larger. Beyond that, may of the card images were slightly reworked so overall the colouring is a little different - this is more apparent in some cards than others.

Hope that helps!

_____

Edited to add. Sorry Sulis, I think we were posting at the same time. Delete or move this please if you'd rather.

baba-prague

21-09-2007, 12:06

I love this card. It reminds me of Beauty and the Beast, when Beast shows his nails (rippped dress)

Oh good! I SO wanted to use that figure because of the ripped dress. Though we had to change about 90% of her and there was a bit of a... cafuffle (is that how you spell it?) here over my insistence on this.

It's a challenging card because it brings up all the issues that Marina Warner so memorably says annoyed many feminists in the writing of Angela Carter. In her fiction Carter presented women as fascinated by the "wild" in the beast - and often able to manipulate and control it to their own ends. But of course, to some women this gets unbearably close to saying that women enjoy being victims of violence - which is clearly untrue and a classic excuse that certain types of men have used to justify themselves (it's also clearly NOT what Carter is saying, she is saying that in fact woman are not such helpless victims as they are often portrayed - she has a wicked sense of humour in all this too). So all in all we have a scene in this card in which there is a lot of emotional tension and a great deal to think about. I hope.

Without saying more, there may be some cards in this deck that may resonate very strongly in some readings. I think this is one of them. Some querents will find this a difficult image.

Oh - I should say too that Alex actually finds The Hermit almost too "summoning". The power of the final image actually worried us both a bit. Maybe we are too close to the work right now and taking it too seriously.

baba-prague

21-09-2007, 12:10

I was wondering Karen, will you also be making glicee prints from the cards of the Bohemian Gothic Tarot?

i fo one would be very interested :D (bad for my budget but good for my happynesslevels )

Oh sorry, just saw this. Yes, I think we will. We are quite proud of some of these images (I think they are some of our best work to date) so we will be sorely tempted to use them in lots of media. We just have to think what's appropriate and what we can do to high quality.

HearthCricket

21-09-2007, 12:48

Oh good! I SO wanted to use that figure because of the ripped dress. Though we had to change about 90% of her and there was a bit of a... cafuffle (is that how you spell it?) here over my insistence on this.

It's a challenging card because it brings up all the issues that Marina Warner so memorably says annoyed many feminists in the writing of Angela Carter. In her fiction Carter presented women as fascinated by the "wild" in the beast - and often able to manipulate and control it to their own ends. But of course, to some women this gets unbearably close to saying that women enjoy being victims of violence - which is clearly untrue and a classic excuse that certain types of men have used to justify themselves (it's also clearly NOT what Carter is saying, she is saying that in fact woman are not such helpless victims as they are often portrayed - she has a wicked sense of humour in all this too). So all in all we have a scene in this card in which there is a lot of emotional tension and a great deal to think about. I hope.

That is interesting, because Beauty and the Beast was always my favourite fairytale. I certainly am not someone who would enjoy violence, though animal instincts in us all do have a way of coming out. But I do remember being terribly disappointed at the end of the B&B Fairytale, when he turns into a prince. I wanted Beast back. I wanted the story to be about loving someone no matter who they were or what they looked like, so the prince was annoying to me! Maybe that is why I always love the series Beauty and the Beast. Vincent never turned into a prince!! In fact, we always saw his animal side. And as much as Catherine loved him, she was always so shocked and appalled at his violent nature.

As for the Hermit, I just love your work with candlelight in your decks. I can always feel the warmth of those candlelit glows and I think it is especially effective in this deck of so much darkness! When I look for the perfect Hermit card I look at the eyes. I like to see that extreme asceticism that the Desert Fathers must have had from long fasts and much soul searching. Sort of how I felt when I was studying for college finals (see final scenes in Amadeus...we used to joke about that being us...). You finally reach the point of overexhaustion and feel like a zombie! :D

6 Haunted Days

21-09-2007, 13:11

I was curious and keep forgetting to ask. Is there any decision yet on the card size? And also, have the backs been chosen?

I haven't seen these things mentioned anywhere, if they're still secret that's fine! :)

As far as the 5 of Swords....my very 1st impression was of a dark gothic revamped tale of Little Red Riding Hood.....then I swiftly remembered that 5 of Swords is Litte Red Riding Hood in your Fairytale deck! Weird.

baba-prague

21-09-2007, 14:07

Oh yes, sorry should have said (I need to do more work on the website, at the moment it really is a bit information-lite!) They will be the same size as our decks up to now - I think that's 78*128 mm (need to check as I have an awful memory for that kind of thing). It seems a popular size. The cardstock will be the same as for the BBCats Gold, so it's a grade up from the VR Gold. I think this is a good weight, heavier might get too heavy.

We have had quite a saga working out how to do the whole package at $49.50 AND include a silk bag (it's real silk). But I think we got there. But we need to get pictures up soonish and more cards on the site. I just ran out of time on that.

I have no CLUE about the back! I can ask Alex, backs are the thing I am least involved in as he loves doing them, so I expect he has plans.

6 Haunted Days

21-09-2007, 14:56

Thanks for the response! Wonderfully happy about the card size, yes they're the perfect size, they fit my hand like a glove. I am very excited to see the new cardstock, I don't have the Gold VR or BBC, and so shall be a surprise wheee. :)

The backs on your decks are always a special treat, the FT and VR I just get lost in looking at them, so I am confident Alex has something very stunning up his sleeve. Something more too look forward too!

shadowdancer

21-09-2007, 15:40

I think I have to mention here that it has been a joy to watch the growth and progress of Karen and Alex.

The decks have been refreshing,and although not all of them are quite to my taste I have admiration for both of you. In a way it is akin to watching my students develop at college. It starts with seeing that spark of what could develop and then seeing them again a few years later - older wiser and fulfilling their dreams and aspirations.

The FM (in my opinion) was the first of your decks that opened that door to show what could be achieved if you are willing to take risks and go in directions that others would not consider as being acceptable as a tarot system. It demonstrated your ability to really take something different and turn it into a valid, but unique tarot deck. This was followed with the VR which has proved to be a favourite for a lot of members, again raising the bar that bit higher for yourselves.

Having seen your BG to date, I think you have really achieved something, and I really wonder how you could actually top it. (If that makese sense). I really think you have raised the bar that high for yourselves now.

I wonder how you see your journey and development, in what is really quite a short space of time. Has it turned out how you hoped, or better. Did you see yourselves being this successful when you were looking at that first card for the Prague deck. What ground would you want to break should the opportunity arise.

For those who follow footie in the UK (yet another comparison....lol) it is a bit like watching a team be promoted in successive seasons from the lowest division to the Premiership with all the ups and downs along the way.

A real privilege to have been witness to this journey. Most of us only dream of producing one deck. It can only be a dream. You followed your dream and now 6 decks later have carved your name up there on the tarot market.

Well done! :)

Baroli

21-09-2007, 15:41

I just got the newsletter today, Karen. Whoo Hoo!!! I cannot wait for the preorders to start!!

Baroli

baba-prague

22-09-2007, 02:47

For those who follow footie in the UK (yet another comparison....lol) it is a bit like watching a team be promoted in successive seasons from the lowest division to the Premiership with all the ups and downs along the way.

Thanks Shadow. But well, we see it quite differently you know. I suppose that's not surprising; the experience on the inside is always distinct from how it may look on the outside. To us, Tarot of Prague is still at least as good as any deck we've made since, for a number of reasons. Partly simply because it uses Prague imagery, which has an extraordinary magic in its own right in many cases. The "black sun" is, to take just one example, a very powerful alchemical image dating from the days when Prague was the European centre of alchemy. Such images carry their own resonance. One could also argue that ToP was the most popular deck with the design community as it has a certain conscious collage kind of style that got it noticed outside tarot circles. I could say a lot more about why I would never regard it as a "lowest division" deck ( ;) ) but that would get far off the subject of this thread.

The Bohemian Gothic is certainly more sophisticated in technical illustration terms. That's because Alex and I have now worked together for about five years and it's always been my belief that it takes about five years to build a studio and make it gel fully (this is