View Full Version : The Bohemian Gothic Tarot
Oh wow.... Have you seen the latest miracle in the making by Magic Realist Press? I canīt wait, that Queen of Words (meant to write Swords) is amazing!!!!!! Tell us more Karen!!!!! I am falling off my chair here.
www.bohemiangothic.com
pandoras-box
15-03-2007, 14:14
Wow, looks amazing, Will go straight on my wishlist. Thanks for sharing this finding. :)
OMG, more goodness from Magic Realist Press? Do tell us more...
There seems to be plans to make a limited edition in silver, if I am reading the information at the website right.
Karen, you have to promise to make Queen of Swords-bags! It was love at first sight for me.
Queen of Swords-bags in rich blue velvet and silver or gold fringe...... Or green velvet. Perhaps she is greenish? You really know how to get my creative imagination spinning!
Thank you for all this inspiration!
pandoras-box
15-03-2007, 14:19
Yeah I just saw that with the silver edition, I so will have to get them. :D
Annabelle
15-03-2007, 14:23
Fabulous!!! I LOVE the theme . . . definitely something to look forward to.
HearthCricket
15-03-2007, 14:24
OMG. Is this the Dark Sister? Gimme. Gimme by Halloween, please! :D
6 Haunted Days
15-03-2007, 14:29
Oh my, this has made my year! I am for sure going to be getting the silver edition!!! If I get one deck this year (yea right) this will be it.
Though I do have to say I am disappointed in the choice of name for the deck. Something more original would have fit better, gothic is just so overused in deck names. I really did like the Dark Sisters idea!
greenbeans
15-03-2007, 14:34
WOW!
Is that the sound of numerous wishlists being updated??
I can't wait for autumn!
Granville
15-03-2007, 14:38
Oh Yes. I must have this deck for Halloween. Maybe I can give readings as the Queen of Swords this year.....hmmmmm......
pandoras-box
15-03-2007, 14:48
yeah, before halloween please. :D I always allow myself one new deck on that day .... plus all the others for the rest of the year. lol
HearthCricket
15-03-2007, 14:56
Wait a sec! Am I seeing what I think I am seeing??? I asked you in an email, not too long ago, to please make this with no borders...and I don't see borders!!!! Did I get my wish?
::::thud:::::
This deck, who is definitely a "she", will always be The Dark Sister in my books! :D How can one take a nap with this sort of excitement on one's mind?
This looks awsome. Excuse me if it's a silly question, but what is ment by "silver edition"?
jackdaw*
15-03-2007, 15:11
Oh heavens, that looks amazing! And I assume by a silver version it would be like the gold versions of the Victorian Romantic and BBC? Amaaaazing!
Karen and Alex: do you two EVER sleep?!
This looks awsome. Excuse me if it's a silly question, but what is ment by "silver edition"?
I'm presuming that it means that this edition will have silver highlights added to the cards, a little like the gold highlights added to the Victorian Romantic gold edition and The Baroque Bohemian Cats' gold edition.
I didn't really care much for Magic Realist decks until the Victorian Romantic took me by complete surprise and became my favourite deck.
This one certainly looks interesting.
I'll look forward to seeing it develop. Hopefully it'll be another beautiful deck that's wonderful for readings :D
alizarin
15-03-2007, 15:22
I'm in tarot love already. I can't wait to see the entire deck.
so dark
so gothic
so so so must have !
did you notice that the skeleton in the 9 of swords is literally pulling the High Priestess card towards itself?
I can not read the word Gothic now without automacially adding 'full of gothicey goodness' from one of the threads here.
That is gorgeous!!! I can't wait for pre-order time. :D :D
This will be a double order for sure.
One for me, one for my dear daughter. :)
tinkerbell
15-03-2007, 16:33
OOOOHHHHH!!!!!
I'm in love!!!
I didn't think karen and alex could possibly create another deck as sumptuous and divine as the victorian romantic but this looks a real crowd pleaser!!!
Let's see some more cards!!!
btw- I love the "no borders" look of these!!!
Luv,
Tinkerbell xxx
Little Baron
15-03-2007, 16:41
Oh my!
I don't want to be predictable and say 'I gotta have it' before even looking at more than a handful of cards. But it does look like the kind of deck I was always searching for. And as many of you know, I have spent many years looking. I have always wanted something dark, but many of the dark decks just never did it for me. But I trust in Magic Realist and I know enough of them to know that I like their style. And yes, it is nice to see them borderless, if that is what they are.
Looks very sumptuous.
But Autumn is fine. I got the Prague, Victorian and Menagerie to get to know at the moment. It would be such a waste to cast them aside for something new.
Looks fun though.
LB
Cocobird55
15-03-2007, 16:43
It looks amazing -- something else to look forward to!
FaireMaiden
15-03-2007, 17:00
I dinna care for dark decks a'tall, but I must say this deck looks just stunning... Can't wait for the See of Logos either...
Thank god for tax refunds, *lol* I've become a Magic Realist freak!!!
jackdaw*
15-03-2007, 17:20
A wee voice of dissent here in the chorus of "halleluja, a borderless Magic Realist deck" ... I think it'd look awfully nice with a simple black border, rather along the lines of their recent decks. But of course, it will be lovely no matter what they do with the borders!
You might as well just put me down for a silver edition preorder already, with a bag of course :D
blackroseivy
15-03-2007, 17:43
ADORE it on 1st sight, it's GORGEOUS - MUST HAVE, MUST HAVE!!! :D :D :D
I will echo LittleBuddha and say I'm glad this is coming out in the autumn-at the moment I am still much immersed in Karen and Alex's other decks. Which is the mark of a good deck, I think-there's always more to discover, deeper depths to plumb and explore.
I haven't been much taken with other Gothic decks I've seen but these cards are wonderful. Dark but not gory. I must admit that excess gore makes me feel like laughing, not shuddering ;)
baba-prague
15-03-2007, 18:48
I've been out this evening.
Well, we've had this one planned for four years now (really) but I just felt we weren't ready to do a dark deck until now. Then the Victorian Romantic turned out to have its Dark Sister (we couldn't call it that - we sell a lot outside English speaking countries now so we felt the word "Gothic" was needed as it's well understood. Still, I think I may always think of it as the Dark Sister myself). The Dark Sister just began howling at the windows all winter - but she had to wait for the Cats to be finished (she likes cats, but she wasn't pleased to wait).
It's taken a lot of thinking about how to do it so that it's dark but not shlocky (is that a word?) I wanted something that felt like a very old Victorian Gothic story - things in the shadows, beautiful women of dubious history (as I said on my blog, I feel that the Queen of Swords is a great deal older than she looks), strange hauntings... all that. Alex wanted something beautiful - he believes that dark ugly images are a bad thing for the spirit - when the darkness has beauty in it, it transforms into something more useful and thought-provoking.
Anyway, here is another taster, the High Priestess. Please bear in mind that knowing us, these will get tweaked a bit between now and the autumn. It's a long, long way to go yet (by the way, the barn owl is my favourite barn owl in the world - she is dear who was rescued here with a bad wing, she loves people and I've held her a few times - but I digress a lot!)
Oh - and yes, it's borderless. I never thought we'd do a borderless deck, but these images seemed to demand it (we tried various dark borders and they just closed everything in too much).
Picks Hearthcricket off the floor, dusts her down and offers her the smelling salts...
.traveller.
15-03-2007, 18:57
Oh dear, just when I was thinking I was done buying decks for a while. Guess I better start saving up for that silver edition, never been tempted by the limited editions before now.
baba-prague
15-03-2007, 19:12
For those who didn't spot this on my blog today. It's loosely based on a photo in an antique book that we have. But it's been redrawn as the original was so old and blurry. But I have had her marked as "MUST use this image" for quite some time now. Alex did the most astonishing job with this figure.
The first thought may be "She's young for the Queen of Swords". But is she really?
jackdaw*
15-03-2007, 19:15
She's stunning - and I think that she may look young, but she's in fact ageless.
Actually, that's a bit conceited to say, because I think she looks like ME!
HearthCricket
15-03-2007, 19:20
Anyway, here is another taster, the High Priestess. Please bear in mind that knowing us, these will get tweaked a bit between now and the autumn. It's a long, long way to go yet (by the way, the barn owl is my favourite barn owl in the world - she is dear who was rescued here with a bad wing, she loves people and I've held her a few times - but I digress a lot!)
Oh - and yes, it's borderless. I never thought we'd do a borderless deck, but these images seemed to demand it (we tried various dark borders and they just closed everything in too much).
Picks Hearthcricket off the floor, dusts her down and offers her the smelling salts...
LOL Thank you! I wanted no borders for two reasons. One is that it would be that much more different from your other decks and just give it that extra uniqueness, and secondly, the whole dark, mysterious aspect to it-lovely but deeply haunting-seemed to cry out "no borders". The few images there really have a beautiful, seductive nature to them. Seductive in the meaning of being inviting, like they are asking you to walk right into the deck and experience it with them. And maybe that is also why I like the lack of borders.
I LOVE the light coloured gloves on the High Priestess. They match her skin tone, but looking closer you realise she has gloves on, thus the mystery surrounds her, perfectly. I am having a blast with several decks, and an autumn release is perfect. I really do hope it is out and in my hands a few weeks before Halloween so I can use her most of October, to warm up! Being in New England the pumpkins and cornstalks and decorations start spilling out into yards and porches in September, so "she" will be a nice companion during the long evenings and firelight, and a silver special edition....grabbing silver candlesticks, putting dark bayberry candles in them, looking for my dark blue or purple spread cloth....making plans....need a bag for her. Will buy several decks. Expecting this to easily outdo my Gothic Vargo, which I love, too. :D
faunabay
15-03-2007, 19:22
OH! OH! OH! The DarK Sisters!!!!! I bow down to the magnificance of Karen and Alex! (giggle) Actually I'm serious! I can NOT wait!
I love the borderless look. I can see what you mean Karen, black borders would close it in too much IMO. And no matter what you name it this will always be the Dark Sisters to me. :*
baba-prague
15-03-2007, 19:25
We found the image in an antiquarian bookshop - but it was one of a shelf of books we were going through and between us we managed to get totally confused about which book had this image. Bit of a panic as Alex badly wanted this particular High Priestess, partly because of the gloves (references to episcopal gloves of course). Anyway, we just dragged home as many of the books as we could afford and eventually found her. The face is completely changed from the original - there is an artist who I will say more about later, I wanted the faces to resemble his (not quite his as this one needed basically to be drawn, but based on the heavy-eyed almost pre-Raph types he does).
The pillars are from Kutna Hora here - a friend (the one we were out with tonight) took the oriiginal pictures for us. They look almost African I think - but in fact are well and truly European. Czech is so full of riches like this.
I don't want to say too much about the symbols as yet though - somehow if we voice them too much it can cut off the imaging of them. They are sort of spilling on to the screen right now - I think this deck has been brewing (or brooding?) a long time.
HearthCricket
15-03-2007, 19:34
I don't want to say too much about the symbols as yet though - somehow if we voice them too much it can cut off the imaging of them. They are sort of spilling on to the screen right now - I think this deck has been brewing (or brooding?) a long time.
Yes, but wow! The sunlight momentarily gleaming down through the stormy clouds, behind her. One pillar in the sun, the other kept deep in shadow. Oooh, such lovely layers! Knowledge and mystery all bound in one. I am dying to know about what she is holding. It looks like the elixir of life-alchemy red, philosopher's stone in liquid...am I too excited? :)
whipsilk
15-03-2007, 19:35
Hello Karen & Alex -
Well, the High Priestess is simply stunning; I was bowled over like I've never experienced before. The Queen of Swords (yep, it is she) is lovely too (as jackdaw said, she's ageless). I've loved -- no, been enchanted by -- all your other decks (save one), and own them all. This deck, I know, is going to be my ne plus ultra deck. I love the fact that the cards are borderless (yay!), even more I'm taken by a silver limited, which I'll have, thank you very much. As you might guess from my avatar, I'm very attached to my dark side, but haven't ever found the right deck for it yet -- and now I have.
As to the name -- I really do love Dark Sister; it's so evocative. How about using Gothic in a subtitle, e.g. Dark Sister: A Gothic Tarot? That covers all your bases -- non-English speakers as well as those of us who'll never think of her as anything other than Dark Sister.
I'll eagerly await autumn, "on needles and pins-uh".
HearthCricket
15-03-2007, 19:38
As to the name -- I really do love Dark Sister; it's so evocative. How about using Gothic in a subtitle, e.g. Dark Sister: A Gothic Tarot? That covers all your bases -- non-English speakers as well as those of us who'll never think of her as anything other than Dark Sister.
Oh, nice! Or "The Bohemian Gothic Tarot; Dark Sister". :D
baba-prague
15-03-2007, 19:43
No, we won't change the name now. Partly just for boring, practical reasons - it's all been sent off to Amazon etc (we have to do all this months in advance).
But I think there is really another reason. I have a feeling this deck needs its public, rather generic name and also a more hidden, personal name. Or have I been reading too much Le Fanu and Poe?
I can't explain. Maybe best not to try?
connegrl
15-03-2007, 19:45
My interest has been sparked! I really like borderless decks. I wish more decks lacked borders. I'm just not up to hacking borders off yet. LOL There is a quality to these cards that invites you in, seduces you. I look forward to it. I may very well be suckered in! I love the production quality of baba decks.
Jen
Apocalipstick
15-03-2007, 19:49
Wow! So far, this looks like the Tarot version of all those delicious Victorian horror stories.
I can't wait to see more of it!
HearthCricket
15-03-2007, 19:55
But I think there is really another reason. I have a feeling this deck needs its public, rather generic name and also a more hidden, personal name. Or have I been reading too much Le Fanu and Poe?
Like harps! One public name, one hidden one. Dark Sister is her Aeclectic Tarot name...her loving pet-name, so to speak. After all, the Victorians thrived on nicknames given to their loved ones! Then again, I've been reading too much Radcliff, Bronte and Leroux! :) She is a beauty, that is for certain. I can't wait to know more about that King of Pentacles, is it? Who looks like a crusader, ready to rise from his grave... His face, from what I can make out of it, reminds me of those dark kings of men in the Lord of the Rings movie-both the nazgul ones and the ones in the mountain, whose souls needed to be released? I love this deck!
Apocalipstick
15-03-2007, 19:59
Is there any way you could share a close-up of the Tower please? Pretty Victorian cherub-laden please?
Ooops, wrong type of Victorian please. Ehrm. Anyway.
The picture on the site looks terribly intriguing, but it's so small. More of it would be a treat.
For those who didn't spot this on my blog today. It's loosely based on a photo in an antique book that we have. But it's been redrawn as the original was so old and blurry. But I have had her marked as "MUST use this image" for quite some time now. Alex did the most astonishing job with this figure.
The first thought may be "She's young for the Queen of Swords". But is she really?
Is there a link on your web site for the blog? I haven't seen it.
By the way my Tarot Reader came today. Love it :D
baba-prague
15-03-2007, 20:06
I'll show some more tomorrow if that's okay - off to bed now (plus I want to make sure the card is actually large enough to be seen - it's literally a very dark card). The Tower is based around two gargoyles - one of them really chilling I think - a bird - eagle probably, certainly a bird of prey - with the head of a man.
A lot of the imagery we're doing really is quite shuddery - but in a weird way. You don't see blood and gore at all. As Apocalipstick said, like those Victorian ghost and horror stories that you read and that then get into your dreams (well, mine).
Apocalipstick
15-03-2007, 20:09
I'm swooning already.
I can't wait to see it!
Good night. Happy haunted dreams. ;)
jackdaw*
15-03-2007, 20:11
Is there a link on your web site for the blog? I haven't seen it.I don't know if we're allowed to link to blogs, so go to baba store and go to the bottom of the left-hand column. There's a link there for Newsletter and Blog or something similar.
RaeBelle
15-03-2007, 20:53
From what I've seen so far, it looks lovely! Perhaps it will be a birthday present from me to me!
ZenMusic
15-03-2007, 21:22
awwww,, i just received the GOLD Victorian Romantic today....
now I see the new Bohemian Gothic... .. I'll have to have it also.. I love Gothic and it looks beautiful so far
Granville
15-03-2007, 21:26
I was just getting satisfied that my Golden Kitties would be arriving home soon and then I could stop yearning for tarot decks. I had already determined what my number 1 deck of the year would be and was hoping to sit back, relax and get ready for a pleasant tarot summer.
.....And now this.....sigh.....The High Priestess is unbelievable....This deck is just amazing.....before it comes out I am sure I will be out of superlatives.....
I can already picture myself curled upstairs reading the companion book. Hmmm, just a thought, but a special edition companion book with full color images of these cards might be required. I would not care what the book costs - I need to lose a few pounds anyway, so I could save my lunch money until Fall. I just feel these cards are so special, they need a full color book to accompany them.....Just a thought!
Swoon.
When is the preorder?
Drool.
a_shikhs
16-03-2007, 04:13
OMG!!! Another baba deck. :bugeyed: Wowwww!!! This deck is gorgeous. :love: What a perfect deck to read with this halloween. :D The cards are hauntingly beautiful. I can't wait to see more cards now. :)
Little Baron
16-03-2007, 05:23
I hope there will be some beautiful dark brothers in there too. I am still waiting on that perfect Knight of Cups - even though I loved the VR one.
Ok, back to the Prague and Menagerie. I am sure there will be many pages of 'loving and drooling' to follow, so someone give me a shout when the deck is baked and ready to eat.
LB
baba-prague
16-03-2007, 05:52
There will definitely be pale, beautiful young men - and less beautiful men with strange eyes too :)
(It's actually rather hard to find beautiful Victorian men - they tended to look so mustachioed and buttoned-up in their pictures)
Here is The Tower. I hope it's easy enough to see (may eventually need some tweaking, it IS rather dark). The full moon? We wanted an implication of transformation - not quite werewolves but man - in fact a crowned king - frozen into the body of an eagle...the moment of catastrophy.
baba-prague
16-03-2007, 07:36
I think this one is genuinely frightening. I'll be interested to hear your reactions.
6 Haunted Days
16-03-2007, 07:40
WOW I am really loving the 9 of swords, spectacular! Very eerie. Perfect.
*claps hands jumps around and squeeeels of joy* :D
Silver edition you say? Must have...
Love the victorian horror-stories and the cards shown sofar definitely have that feel to them that creeps up into the shadows and just ... lurks ... :)
baba-prague
16-03-2007, 07:57
Yes, we think the ink overlays need to be silver on this one - gold wouldn't quite fit. And we are getting in a really nice card stock too.
So far our thinking is that the limited edition will come with a bag - but it will have to be one standard bag (but we can make others available separately). I think a bag might be nice - though it will put the price up. But perhaps worth it to people, especially if we can do a really stunning "silver" Gothic bag?
temperlyne
16-03-2007, 07:58
The lady in the 9 of swords doesn't look like she wants to be a part of that dans macabre, but she has no choice but to dance it.
Has anyone of you ever been to the amusement park "The Efteling" In the Netherlands? In the haunted castle a solitary violin playes the dans macabre while elegant ghostly creatures reluctantly dans to its tunes. This card reminded me of it.
very haunting one perhaps even the best 9 of swords i have seen !
bit also disturbing it looks very much like a dream i recently had with that difference that i was in the place this troubled denzel is here.
and it continued in a sepulchre cellarr with lots of wine and a very hairy fiddler with whom my departed godmother wanted me to marry (strange dream i have)
if that 's not i sign i must havethis deck !!
Little Baron
16-03-2007, 08:00
Not sure about the '9 of Swords' Karen. I don't find it frightening. For me, the '9 of Swords' is that deep fear you get when you sit bolt-upright at night. I have had this many times with visions and feeling of presence in my room. Laying there with my heart beating 100mph. But in the card, it looks almost pantomime - kind of like the woman is dancing with them happily - a little bit Ghostbusters or Casper. I don't get any anxiety from it. The Tower is much more of a scary image, I would say. Is that the kind of response you were expecting, or different? It's just an honest one.
LB
baba-prague
16-03-2007, 08:02
The lady in the 9 of swords doesn't look like she wants to be a part of that dans macabre, but she has no choice but to dance it.
Has anyone of you ever been to the amusement park "The Efteling" In the Netherlands? In the haunted castle a solitary violin playes the dans macabre while elegant ghostly creatures reluctantly dans to its tunes. This card reminded me of it.
No, we've never been there, but we do have a ghostly violinist in another card. Hmm - well we are obviously picking up all the right vibes!
I think there will be a haunted Masquerade Ball too - sort of "Masque of the Red Death" reference:
http://bau2.uibk.ac.at/sg/poe/works/reddeath.html
baba-prague
16-03-2007, 08:05
very haunting one perhaps even the best 9 of swords i have seen !
bit also disturbing it looks very much like a dream i recently had with that difference that i was in the place this troubled denzel is here.
and it continued in a sepulchre cellarr with lots of wine and a very hairy fiddler with whom my departed godmother wanted me to marry (strange dream i have)
if that 's not i sign i must havethis deck !!
Sounds like a seriously disturbing dream, and, as I say, a fiddler is in the deck (more of a beautiful young boy than a hairy man though). Sepulchral cellars will definitely feature - and graveyards and more castles and big, draughty old houses.
fall_guy
16-03-2007, 08:16
I like the look of this deck. I love the creepy atmosphere and the 9 and Queen of Swords look great.
I originally thought the Victorian Romantic would have a darker moody theme, with murky Victorian settings. Some of the VR cards hinted at this (e.g 9 of Swords, Queen of Swords), but in the end the overall romantic and angelic theme just wasn't for me.
I've been looking for a spooky deck for quite a while, and resigned myself to buying either the Archeon or Vargo. Thank you for expanding my options!
Little Baron
16-03-2007, 08:17
This looks much more interesting than the Archeon, FG. Then again, if you are after that, I have it up for trade.
LB
fall_guy
16-03-2007, 08:25
This looks much more interesting than the Archeon, FG. Then again, if you are after that, I have it up for trade.
LB
Thanks LB, but I after seeing this new deck, the Archeon is dead and buried.
The way the Archeon has been described on this forum (spooky, mysterious, autumnal etc) made me think it would be the perfect 'dark' deck for me. However when I saw the images, they just bored me.
From what I've seen so far, this new deck might be worth all the gushing.
HearthCricket
16-03-2007, 08:39
The lady in the 9 of swords doesn't look like she wants to be a part of that dans macabre, but she has no choice but to dance it.
Has anyone of you ever been to the amusement park "The Efteling" In the Netherlands? In the haunted castle a solitary violin playes the dans macabre while elegant ghostly creatures reluctantly dans to its tunes. This card reminded me of it.
I so agree with you! The look on her face is not one of joy, but rather despair, as though she has no will of her own and must dance with the skeletons. Also, there are more of them, than her, and they seem taller and overpowering her. This reminds me of a particular scene in Legend where the princess has been enchanted and is gracefully, but unwillingly dancing with that macabre looking creature and she suddenly goes goth looking! I love it when I can associate a card with a movie scene or a book. It makes it so much richer. This is a very hauntingly disturbing card~like something out of a nightmare.
I must add that I love the fact that you have kept away from the blood and gore and instead replaced it with creepy, eerie, haunting scenes and details that do crawl into your mind and simmer there! They are very chilling, like ghost stories and legends told around the fire on Christmas night that have been passed down through the ages. It is the dark side of Prague, the mystique and the spectral side of the Victorian age and eras past...
Karen, would it be possible to share the original picture that inspired the BG Queen of Swords? I am so curious.
HearthCricket
16-03-2007, 09:11
Why do I have the feeling a scene from Rappaccini's Daughter (Hawthorne) would fit well in this deck? :D
baba-prague
16-03-2007, 09:13
Karen, would it be possible to share the original picture that inspired the BG Queen of Swords? I am so curious.
Yes, here she is - beautiful but rather poor quality print which is why so much had to be redrawn. We've also made her rather harder looking - more ageless and less of a straightforwardly sweet girl. We want a lot of shadows and implications in this deck:
Sounds like a seriously disturbing dream, and, as I say, a fiddler is in the deck (more of a beautiful young boy than a hairy man though). Sepulchral cellars will definitely feature - and graveyards and more castles and big, draughty old houses.
well at was not a scary type of elder man but more of a young sexual hairy Pan-type (as you see on some ancient Greek statues - with all the details)
baba-prague
16-03-2007, 09:21
Oh, ours is much more fae - he reminds me a little of someone from the film Company of Wolves somehow. But he needs a lot of work before we show him.
However, it's likely there will be some satyrs in the deck.
HearthCricket
16-03-2007, 09:28
Yes, here she is - beautiful but rather poor quality print which is why so much had to be redrawn. We've also made her rather harder looking - more ageless and less of a straightforwardly sweet girl.
Okay, am I the only one not picking up sweetness from her? Her hair is very long and worn down, which is unusual for the Victorians. Her face looks very serious and the dress she is wearing is quite unusual that I can't even place the decade, which I usually can from a picture. She looks very mysterious to me, already! What book is she reading from? What is that large ring on her finger? What sort of dress is that? I like her. She gives me the creeps! lol
However, it's likely there will be some satyrs in the deck.
oh I can't wait to see them!!!
And just looking at the Nine of Swords I hear eerie strains of Saint-Saëns "Danse Macabre"...it's PERFECT!
Okay, am I the only one not picking up sweetness from her? Her hair is very long and worn down, which is unusual for the Victorians. Her face looks very serious and the dress she is wearing is quite unusual that I can't even place the decade, which I usually can from a picture. She looks very mysterious to me, already! What book is she reading from? What is that large ring on her finger? What sort of dress is that? I like her. She gives me the creeps! lol
i feel a severe case of nostalgia and secrecy with her, something she did out of natural instinct /urge. What kind of dark history this sweet innocent girl might hide - she makes me think of a young widow perhaps only been married a few months before death did them part (perhaps by her own hands )
jackdaw*
16-03-2007, 09:42
I see a melancholy sweetness (if that makes any sense) in the completed card. But from the original picture? No, I just get the melancholy.
baba-prague
16-03-2007, 09:51
That's interesting (no really, I need to think about this), because I see far more shades of the beautiful young vampiric Carmilla in the final card:
http://www.sff.net/people/DoyleMacdonald/l_carmil.htm
"She was above the middle height of women. I shall begin by describing her. She was slender, and wonderfully graceful. Except that her movements were languid-very languid- indeed, there was nothing in her appearance to indicate an invalid. Her complexion was rich and brilliant; her features were small and beautifully formed; her eyes large, dark, and lustrous; her hair was quite wonderful, I never saw hair so magnificently thick and long when it was down about her shoulders...There was a coldness, it seemed to me, beyond her years, in her smiling melancholy persistent refusal to afford me the least ray of light. "
Of course, it's only shades. We don't intend any of the cards to explicitly illustrate any particular story, but we do want them to be reminiscent of many.
Apocalipstick
16-03-2007, 10:08
Not to sidetrack from the Queen of Swords discussion (the original picture is lovely, and its transformation into the card is quite perfect), but I've been thinking about the Tower.
(Thank you for sharing it!)
I can see where it being too dark may be an issue, though that didn't bother me. However, it does appear too static, and the Tower is one of least static cards.
I was really thinking of something along the lines of the end tableau in "Fall of the House of Usher," and to see it without even a crack surprised me.
Not that there has to be a crack, I suppose, but there's such brooding intensity to the card, it becomes almost introspective, like it relies too much on the reader's reaction to get the point of the Tower across.
Am I making sense? I feel like I'm meanering around what I'm trying to say.
baba-prague
16-03-2007, 10:27
Not to sidetrack from the Queen of Swords discussion (the original picture is lovely, and its transformation into the card is quite perfect), but I've been thinking about the Tower.
(Thank you for sharing it!)
I can see where it being too dark may be an issue, though that didn't bother me. However, it does appear too static, and the Tower is one of least static cards.
I was really thinking of something along the lines of the end tableau in "Fall of the House of Usher," and to see it without even a crack surprised me.
Not that there has to be a crack, I suppose, but there's such brooding intensity to the card, it becomes almost introspective, like it relies too much on the reader's reaction to get the point of the Tower across.
Am I making sense? I feel like I'm meanering around what I'm trying to say.
Yes, I know what you mean - thanks for the input - and the depiction may change in the next months of course (it is our second Tower as it is, and when we begin to change things it often seems to indicate that a card is still not "right"). I think now it's like the moment just before something shocking happens (you know that moment in Gothic film?) but I can't decide if that's really approporate for this card. But there will be a lot of small changes (perhpas some large ones) as the deck takes form. Sometimes you struggle with the content and symbolism of a card, and later go back to deal with the visuals better, other times you struggle and focus on the visuals, and later see better symbolism that could be incorporated. I think we'll be working in both "directions" in the coming months.
Apocalipstick
16-03-2007, 10:36
I think right now it's like the moment just before something shocking happens (you know that moment in Gothic film?)
Exactly!
It has suspense, and it has atmosphere, and there's plenty of tension, but there's still the pinprick of hope that things could still be okay.
That if you just close your eyes and stop staring at the gargoyles and the moon from such a vertiginous angle, then maybe nothing will happen.
At least, that's how I read it.
It's so calm. Ominous, but calm.
The Tower should shake you to the very core, alter your world view, tear asunder your beliefs.
I think my fondness for the card is showing. :D
I'll stop now. I can't wait to see how this deck develops!
Little Baron
16-03-2007, 10:38
Don't know if you missed it, Karen, but was wondering what you thought about my feelings for the '9'. I hope I didn't offend.
LB
baba-prague
16-03-2007, 10:57
Hi LB - sorry, I did miss it. No, I think she is horrified and helpless - trapped in a nightmare. It may be that these images are rather small and so the expressions are not that clear. But I don't think there is anything happy in this picture - the grisly phantoms are, I think, very much the ones in control - she is simply being lead - unwilling - in the dance.
Oh wow. The girl reading, original picture of the Queen of Swords is pure magic. She looks like an apparition. Who was she, originally, do you know? What is the book about where you found her? Thank you so much for sharing her. I canīt believe how long her hair is. And that ring. What is she reading, one wonders... I have so many questions, like HearthCricket...
The Queen of Swords is lovely. I wanted to not buy this deck, but I think my will power will be gone by the time it's published :D
baba-prague
16-03-2007, 13:09
The Queen of Swords is lovely. I wanted to not buy this deck, but I think my will power will be gone by the time it's published :D
Well, it will be AGES yet, so don't worry :)
Yes, here she is - beautiful but rather poor quality print which is why so much had to be redrawn. We've also made her rather harder looking - more ageless and less of a straightforwardly sweet girl. We want a lot of shadows and implications in this deck:
She is beautiful. What does the book say about her? Does it say who she is? What book was she in? Well, if it does not need to be a secret for now. ;)
baba-prague
16-03-2007, 13:46
The book is in German - but I will fish it out at the weekend and see what it says about her :)
The book is in German - but I will fish it out at the weekend and see what it says about her :)
Thank you. :)
It looks like she took her hair out of a very long braid for the picture with all the ripple waves in her hair.
Oh! This is really good for what we can see! I feel I am a child again. The wait will be long but it will worth it!
"Bohemian Gothic"-- I hear the parallel structure to the "Victorian Romantic"--these are not decks; they are wings of an art museum. Each deck is an exhibition, a gallery, could be used in University to teach period art...
I hope you can get Henry Irving in there somewhere.
Maybe...one gold card? In the Red Death?
shadowomyn
16-03-2007, 20:32
I think that this is the first time I'm planning on pre-ordering both the original deck and the silver version.
I love gothic decks!
Still, I think I may always think of it as the Dark Sister myself.
Karen the mini-preview of the deck is exquisite. I understand your dilema with the name. Here at AT I am quite sure this deck will always be known and called "The Dark Sister", you call it whatever works best for marketing *LOL*.
You can jot me down for a copy of the Silver edition. Will this deck come with a book as well?
So far our thinking is that the limited edition will come with a bag - but it will have to be one standard bag (but we can make others available separately). I think a bag might be nice - though it will put the price up. But perhaps worth it to people, especially if we can do a really stunning "silver" Gothic bag?
As long as it also comes with the book. Please please please do this limited edition with a book. You know I love my bags, but if given a choice with the set I would like the book and to pick my own bag :D
HearthCricket
17-03-2007, 11:23
I wanted to add that I am really excited about your working with silver, for a change. First of all, it will go best with this Gothic theme. I think of a silvery moon and how lovely it looks against those deeps blues, blacks, greens, etc. The Gold editions are lovely and give a nice subtle antique glow to them. But silver shimmers.
I am sure this sounds strange, but I first noticed this on our Christmas trees. I have lots of shiny gold brass in my house and thus gold garland or gold beads seemed to have the perfect touch on the tree....giving it sort of a rich Ren look. But when I put silver against the trees, I realized that they gleam more. Gold has a tendency to absorb light while silver reflects it. I guess because gold is a warm colour and silver is a cool colour. I noticed the same with your bags. I found the ones with the silver cording handles more eye catching than the gold. I wear gold rings, but for the life of me, I can't wear a gold bracelet or watch. Silver looks a thousand times better around my pale wrist!
So, in a nutshell, I am really exicted about seeing the Silver edition and how it will reflect the light, glitter, etc. Of course, you know that means I may want a silver edition of the Victorian Romantic, if all goes well. :D
jackdaw*
17-03-2007, 12:25
Another silver-lover and silver-wearer adding her thanks!
I don't know if the VR would look quite so good with silver, HC - something in it just calls for gold. But the Dark Sister is a silver deck if ever there was one :)
I don't know if this has been said already, but the Nine of Swords reminds me of a scene in Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell, where Jonathan Strange's wife has been taken to the "underworld" and is forced to dance all night. Such torment involved in this card - it is absolutely stunning.
caridwen
17-03-2007, 12:41
You have another fan here. If I take one to Transylvania will I get it reduced:D
a_shikhs
17-03-2007, 12:47
Silver is a really cool idea and something very very different. Silver has this somewhat cool gothicky feeling to it. I cant wait to see more cards. :D
Little Baron
17-03-2007, 13:33
Hi LB - sorry, I did miss it. No, I think she is horrified and helpless - trapped in a nightmare. It may be that these images are rather small and so the expressions are not that clear. But I don't think there is anything happy in this picture - the grisly phantoms are, I think, very much the ones in control - she is simply being lead - unwilling - in the dance.
I understand. A nice image to play with. I just think that in some situations, skeletons can be a bit cliche and don't really hold much of the 'nightmare' for me when dancing here, that is all.
I really like the idea for a dark deck, Karen, and please don't be offended when I say this. I feel that I should be honest, and all of this 'drooling' and the like in threads like this, flattering as it may be, doesn't really serve much purpose - and isn't that interesting to read [I may even slip on the dribble if I am not careful ;) ]. But as darker as it is, it does feel a touch like decks that you have already created. I know there are obvious differences and you have also found a trademark style, but do you think, as a creator, there is a prospect that you could have become stuck in your ways. As nice as some of the images are to view, do they challenge the two of you creatively? Has it become too easy?
I ask this, not because I want to be confrontational or controversial, but because after working with the Prague for the last couple of weeks, I can see how much raw energy and magic fills that deck, and with later works, as much as they are interesting and thought provoking, those like the VR do not seem to have the same spark.
You know that I think you are one of the more interesting things to hit tarot in a long time and I always appreciate your tarot commentary [in books and here too], so I hope you do not find this post offensive. I am primarily using your decks at the moment [and no others], so it is not a knock on your back-catalogue or reputation as such. I just think they are questions that are worthy of asking, and doubt very much that anyone else will ask them. I have suggested similar things to Ciro. And also feel the same about the Cielo Tarot.
Best, LB
I don't know if this has been said already, but the Nine of Swords reminds me of a scene in Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell, where Jonathan Strange's wife has been taken to the "underworld" and is forced to dance all night. Such torment involved in this card - it is absolutely stunning.
I've just finished that book and that was my thought as well.
Cocobird55
17-03-2007, 14:48
I agree with whomever said that a book would be wonderful. A kit with a deck, bag and book would be perfect! And since the silver is a limited edition, and most people (at least I think so) are buying extra books and bags, raising the price to cover it shouldn't be a problem. I too love the look of silver, and am really looking forward to this deck.
Queen of Pentacle
17-03-2007, 14:49
This coming deck appears just as I have decided to quit collecting.
If it is half as beautifull as the victorian romantic, this will still be a must!
Dark victorian imagery, deep feeling, shadows and silver ink.
A treat is coming!
Gee, I am longing for the fall!
Baba, your artistry is just irresitible... Like your devil in your Victorian romantic tarot.
HearthCricket
17-03-2007, 15:04
LB~I certainly can't speak for Karen, but I feel the same goes for all artists of all kinds. One can recognize a piece of work by Mozart, and Bach often sounds the same. Ciro's 2 decks are certainly very similar, though not exact. Dickens' novels have similar themes, and Hardy's even more so. If you go to a museum you can easily pick out all of Renoir's works from the rest and sometimes it is difficult to figure out which Pre-Raphaelite did a certain painting, as so many look similar in style. And Shakespeare certainly stood on his own with similar language, themes, repetitious phrases, etc.
An artist could go nuts and try every single style, every single colour in the rainbow, try various mediums, various themes. But in the end, the best of them find their niche. That niche, or style, or whatever you want to call it is what becomes not only their trademark, but their own challenge. Magic Realist Press did the BBC's. Then they decided some cards needed a change-they had a better view of things, they made those changes, thus the 2nd edition. The Victorian Romantic is lovely and lush, but has the balance of both light and dark cards. The Bohemian Gothic takes on an entirely new world~remaining in a similar art style that makes them so unique from other artists~and explores a much darker theme, not yet undertaken by Magic Realist Press. You find your nitch and then you try to perfect it. I find it exciting. Like discovering an unpublished Bronte novel. Similar language, similar style, but a new story and theme. I can't imagine this not being an exciting adventure and challenge for them when only looking at a few cards has me mesmorized and already sifting through the layers of imagery and imagining how I would read each card, myself. In a sense we are all artists finding our niche and trying to expand, grow and perfect it. An athlete could try out every sport there is, but if they want perfection, they need to settle down to one and put everything they've got into that one interest.
As for the drooling and the googaa's, that is how one often expresses their delight and their thanks for someone creating a work of art that speaks volumes to them. I, for one, plan to continue the drooling, because this deck is perfect for me. It mixes my love for art, Victorian themes and the mystique all in one, and as I am not too fond of many of the artwork in some of the darker decks, this will finally give me the opportunity to delve into that realm with artwork that I can relish.
:)
In terms of drooling, yes, I do find it a waste of reading space. There was a time on this site when there was some great discussions going on - there were great studies and very interesting comment to get your teeth stuck into. But as time moves on, there is more interest in buy, buy, buy, and less interest in actually doing anything with a deck before moving on. You wait and see how long, after publication, that this deck gets dropped for the next flavour of the month.
LittleBuddha, I both agree with you and disagree with you. ;)
First, the disagreements :
1) Having glanced at FaireMaiden's profile, I note that she writes in this style because she is a Renaissance Faire enthusiast. I'd be VERY surprised if she used it in her everyday dealings with people.
2) That baba decks possess a certain "something" is undoubtedly true-the romanticism, the love of Central European art, the quirky humour, the very high production standards. But are they repeating themselves ? I have all their decks and I really don't think they are. Ploughing a deep furrow, possibly. In ten years' time (gulp !) I would expect their work to look rather different but to still exhibit, almost certainly, some of the same preoccupations and the same high production standards. Art evolves, artists evolve. It does seem amazing to consider that the Tarot of Prague, the very first baba deck, only saw the light of day in the summer of 2003. That's less than 4 years ago.
And, though there have been dark ELEMENTS in the previous decks (as I would want and expect in a balanced Tarot) this new up-and-coming Gothic deck is taking the whole dark thing to a new level. Am I right to assume by the way, Karen, that some of it will be rather tongue-in-cheek, in the manner of the Vampuss book ?
Okay, now the agreements :
I do think there is too much of "Oh-when-can-I buy-the next-new-deck ?" on this Forum of late. Of course it is exciting when we realize something well-made and lovely is in the works (I'm very pleased to see the Bohemian Gothic in the offing, and am also counting the days until the Gold Edition of the BBC lands on my doorstep) but I do agree with you, LittleBuddha, that it's sad to just see so many decks regarded as must-haves and flavour-of the-month. If a deck is really good , it's worth returning to again and again. And again. If it's gimmicky/poorly-made/poorly-produced, why bother with it ?
Apocalipstick
17-03-2007, 15:36
It seems to me that part of what LB was saying, is that there's a certain repetitiveness (beyond artistic consistency) and an accompanying flatness to the BG. I could be very wrong here, though, so everyone take this with a grain of salt.
I don't know about the repetitiveness, since I don't own any MR decks, in spite of their gorgeousness and my personal attraction to the Fantastic Menagerie. The flatness, however, I tend to agree with.
There is so much potential to this deck, and from the few cards Karen, whom I do not know, has shared, there is also a lot of realized potential. It looks to me like the surface is being skimmed on what this deck can offer, and that boundaries of where it can go are still in the process of being tested.
It can be so easy to go over the top with the Victorian Gothic theme, especially since its been rehashed and even parodied nearly endlessly. The cards, so far, show great restraint - they could have easily been campy. It doesn't take much for the genre to go there.
Perhaps there is too much restraint? Not enough comfort zones being broken?
When Victorian horror first hit the market, it provided very real chills to its audience. These days, when it's become a cliche, it may be difficult to disentangle nostalgia from creepiness. These images are safe because we are already familiar with the archetypes presented.
To a Victorian, the image of a woman dancing with skeletons would have been a vastly different experience than to any one of us. What Karen and Alex are doing looks like a distinct attempt to recreate the momentum such a picture might've had for its original audience, which is a monumental task IMO.
I think this "flatness" I'm mentioning has a lot to do with the familiarity with the genre a lot of fans of this deck have. For some, it's pitch perfect. Others, like me, will want the envelope pushed as far as it can go.
Of course, this deck isn't copletely finalized. As such, it shouldn't be held up to the stadards of a finished product. I believe she already mentioned that is still a work in progress.
That being said, these are all points of discussion.
baba-prague
17-03-2007, 15:39
Oh dear. Well, please let's not turn this thread into something confrontational. All opinions are valued by us. Thank-you to several people for the defence - but also thank-you to LB for coming out with an honest attack. I know that in his case it's a real and sincere opinion, not just someone "having a go" - and I'm glad that he gives his opinion in such an honest way.
Is this deck like our others? No, I think that (apart from the general "baba studio style" which of course is just "us" and part of what we are) it only has obvious similarities with The Victorian Romantic - this is where the whole habit of calling it "The Dark Sister" comes from.
In a way the decks will be related to one another. Gothic decks aren't for reading with every day, whereas I find The Victorian Romantic is just a very rewarding day-to-day deck - it's the one I use most as it can go so deep emotionally. But on the days you need a deck for something quite different - exploring dark fantasies and things that are more forbidden and hidden, then The Bohemian Gothic will come into its own. I think both decks - in use - may have something to offer one another.
In practice, I think the two will look related but very different - in fact the technique we are using is a bit different this time and I think the visual style won't feel quite the same.
Is it "easy" for us? If only! No, we have worried a lot over the idea of a dark deck for four years now off and on. Alex and I both find it a very demanding thing to undertake - we seriously discussed not doing it at all as we aren't "Goth" people - just people who love certain aspects of the Gothic. But, well, in the end there isn't a dark deck out there that I feel gets the essence of Gothic as I want it to be (too much that reminds me of the film "Van Helsing", too little that reminds me of Herzog's "Nosteratu" - if you film buffs know what I mean). So that was a huge motivation for us to do the deck.
But LB is right - there is always a danger of artists beginning to rest on their laurels and starting to repeat themselves. For this reason mostly, Alex and I agreed, just after Tarot of Prague, that we would do a very limited number of decks ourselves, and after that will focus on editing and publishing decks by others. So you won't see repeats - I won't say the exact number we agreed on, but we both think it is just enough to let us say what we have to say then stop - always the best artistic decision :)
Little Baron
17-03-2007, 15:49
Interesting posts. The thread has bite.
I am off out soon, but I want to thank those who have responded considerately and open-mindedly to my post.
I appreciate your comments very much Karen. And you know I respect you and Alex :) I don't doubt that I will one day buy this deck to compare and contrast with the others. But in it's progress, I think that varied discussion, on a forum like this, is what AT has always been about.
And just to clarify, I hope you didn't think I meant that I thought your job was easy. I know how hard you work and the endless time and mental energy it takes up. I just meant that I wondered if the physical process, which is alike, had become less challenging in that you know it so much better now.
I know you know me. And hope you all know me better than to think I would be critical for the sake of it.
These were just questions, initially. And questions are good.
LB
baba-prague
17-03-2007, 15:49
Oh, and the question of whether the deck will "push the envelope"? Good question. I just hate what's happened to many dark fantasy and horror films in the last few years. I get bored rigid with ludicrous special effects and blood and gore and in-yer-face shock everywhere. The only thing I've found vaguely interesting has been Terry Gilliam sending up the whole awful genre in his "Brothers Grimm" (was it a send-up? Yes, as far as I know it was - certainly it was hysterically funny at times)
I LOVE the quieter, more insinuating, more suggestive Gothic - and I find it FAR more frightening. So this is what the deck sets out to be. It won't be "Hell Raiser 8" or "Halloween 11", but it will, I hope, have echoes of Poe as illustrated by Harry Clarke (not stylistically, but in terms of atmosphere) - and if we achieve that we'll be very happy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Clarke
Interesting thread, and it looks an interesting deck.
I find most 'gothic' or supposedly 'dark' decks pathetically cheesey.
Cartoon vampires.
This deck, from the few cards I have seen, seems to be rather stylish.
'The Dark Sister' has a lovely ring to it.
It's a shame you're not using that name.
To me (probably only to me) the 'gothic' word has all sorts of tacky, cheesey associations.
For this reason mostly, Alex and I agreed, just after Tarot of Prague, that we would do a very limited number of decks ourselves, and after that will focus on editing and publishing decks by others.
By editing and publishing decks by others, do you mean publishing original decks by a single artist, in the manner of US Games for instance, or do you mean more of the collaged and coloured clip art style of deck that you've published in the past year?
Apocalipstick
17-03-2007, 16:02
I guess I should clarify "pushing the envelope."
I tend to be bored silly by most recent horror films. They leave little to the imagination, which is where the darkest work is done.
(Maupassant's "La Horla" comes to mind here.)
I certainly do not mean blood, guts, gore. I do however think of the genuine chill (again, that word) that reading M.R. James's "Lost Hearts" brings.
I will probably purchase this deck, if only for my fondness for atmospheric, gothic horror.
But since I have a chance to bring things up with its creators, I can't exactly hold back. :D
I'm more interested in exchanging ideas than criticism.
HearthCricket
17-03-2007, 17:09
I'm still dying to see that King of Pentacles up close! He has such a regal and haunting look about him. He looks like he has so many stories to tell. I want to shake him up from his death bed and ask him a few questions!
I've been wanting to tap into my darker side. It looks like you are going to give me that opportunity in a grand way. Now, if I could just get you and Alex to make me up a Gothic reading list for the summer, I will be all set! :D You didn't know I was going to ask for homework, did you?!!
baba-prague
17-03-2007, 17:28
By editing and publishing decks by others, do you mean publishing original decks by a single artist, in the manner of US Games for instance, or do you mean more of the collaged and coloured clip art style of deck that you've published in the past year?
Clip art? Sound of dull thud!
We've never used clip art in our lives - eek. Sorry, I'm sure it wasn't meant that way, but we spent more than $1000 on the source books for the VR - and they took us two years to track down. The problem with clip art is that the quality and resolution tend to be very poor so for this and other reasons we avoid it. Much of the imagery we incorporate into decks is substantially changed and redrawn and in many ways I think it's a different type of collage from most. I suppose the best term I can think of is "seamless collage" - so seamless that in most cases people don't realise the extent to which the image is made by us.
But in answer to the question, I mean we will publish decks by other artists (ie we will not do the artwork ourselves) - though perhaps not US Games style - I just think we might be interested in rather different things. Quite how this will work I'm not sure yet - we have been talking to a few artists and eventually hope that something will come of this. As yet we are not keen to take submissions for decks, although we are interested in talking to artists and illustrators about ideas.
baba-prague
17-03-2007, 17:31
I guess I should clarify "pushing the envelope."
I tend to be bored silly by most recent horror films. They leave little to the imagination, which is where the darkest work is done.
(Maupassant's "La Horla" comes to mind here.)
I certainly do not mean blood, guts, gore. I do however think of the genuine chill (again, that word) that reading M.R. James's "Lost Hearts" brings.
I'm more interested in exchanging ideas than criticism.
Yes, me too. And I took it as discussion, not criticism. Yes, it's the M.R.James, "Turn of the Screw", LeFanu and Stoker type of feeling that we are after. I think basically we're talking about the same thing. But some people may perhaps be disappointed that there won't be graphic monsters and blood in this deck. I think however that the implied style of Gothic just suits tarot better. As you say, it lets things take shape in the imagination.
Have to say that I realise my Irish prejudices (LeFanu, Clarke, Stoker) are showing themselves tonight on this thread but hey, it's St Patrick's Day so I'm allowed :)
We've never used clip art in our lives - eek. Sorry, I'm sure it wasn't meant that way, but we spent more than $1000 on the source books for the VR - and they took us two years to track down.
Yes that definition is correct. As well as bundles of images that you can buy, clip art is defined as using images from pre-existing printed works in other publishing projects. The fact that you are not clipping the art but scanning it from pre-existing source books doesn't change that, although you are not using bundled images as distributed by a company like Dover.
Much of the imagery we incorporate into decks is substantially changed and redrawn and in many ways I think it's a different type of collage from most.
Collage is defined as an artistic composition consisting of images from various sources pasted on a picture surface. The word comes from the Latin "colla" and the Greek "kolla" which both mean "glue." If you are "gluing" the images using a computer program that does not change the definition.
I mean we will publish decks by other artists (ie we will not do the artwork ourselves) - though perhaps not US Games style - I just think we might be interested in rather different things.
Well that sounds very interesting, good luck with these new explorations.
faunabay
17-03-2007, 18:55
Come on people!! Let those of us that want to get excited about this deck do so!! AND let others voice some of their thoughts too! LittleBuddha was being very nice IMO bringing up his thoughts without being nasty. Can't we all play nice? :*
faunabay
17-03-2007, 18:56
Clip art? Sound of dull thud!
Karen, most of us know you don't use clip art!! (giggle) Don't worry!
baba-prague
17-03-2007, 19:01
Karen, most of us know you don't use clip art!! (giggle) Don't worry!
Thanks :) I think I'll just let this part of the conversation lie in case the whole thread gets derailed.
But the point I was making is that we redraw the images in most cases - collage artists generally don't do that. It's not to do with how the image is captured and pasted, it's to do with the work - the drawing and colouring - that's then added to it. The problem that leads to confusion, perhaps, is that Alex does this so seamlessly that people can't see it. Which, of course, is the whole idea. We need some term for what we do (perhaps I should invent one ;) ). I think it's actually quite like some film techniques in a way.
Anyway, as I say, going on about this is only going to defocus the thread. Perhaps if it's worth discussing further it could be done in Tarot Creation?
"pushing the envelope" with respect to the horror/gothic genre has become synonymous with pushing the envelope in only one way-- breaking taboos concerning gore and sex.
That's a pity, because there have been many other ways to push the envelope, and Magic Realist tends to be pretty darn envelope pushy:
*Abandoning suit signs
*Diverging from RWS scenes
*Theming a deck around a city, and letting artifacts and architecture star
*Unnumbering the Major Arcana
*Adding variant cards
Magic Realist I think deserves, and has received, much credit in the PTE category.
Other designers' pushes of the Tarot envelope I've admired:
*Removing detail, as in the International Icon Tarot
*HP Lovecraft Tarot
*Halloween Tarot
So far, I've been very impressed with the BG. I considered changing the 9 of swords from a static to an active scene was a form of PTE; so too is a young Queen of Swords. I gave the Queen of Swords some thought and realized that confusion about the roles of the young and the old is one of the trope of Gothic: the "old soul" in the young body.
baba-prague
17-03-2007, 19:14
I gave the Queen of Swords some thought and realized that confusion about the roles of the young and the old is one of the trope of Gothic: the "old soul" in the young body.
Yes, I have been rereading a book on the Gothic in literature and this point comes up. Women who are confident and/or powerful and/or interested in sex are also, in the Gothic, portrayed as divergent from the normal and threatening - and therefore inviting destruction. Once we read, in Dracula, Lucy's petulant suggestion that women be allowed to marry three men at once, we know that she won't last long!
The whole attitude of the Gothic to women is fascinating - we are including many women in the deck and they will not just be victims in diaphanous dresses (need evil grin smilie here).
"We need some term for what we do (perhaps I should invent one ;) ..."
+++++
How about borrowing a term from film-land, and calling it 'photocompositing'?
+++++
I just finished Belford's biography of Stoker. One of the points she makes is that Stoker's novels often had a strong, virtuous female character: the "woman with the brain of a man" who somewho manages the difficult feat of being both capable and not threatening to men.
Goddess knows that's a tricky one to emulate. This set me thinking: the Gothic Woman isn't just a predatory woman--after all, the 1920's Vamp of a woman who, incapable of self-support, drains a man of of his resources via sexual enticement, isn't really all that challenging--but also women who supplant men, threaten men in other ways, other roles. For example, a female figure who took over the role of father in raising a son and molding his masculinity is threatening; women as religious leaders, prophets, ancient yet ageless sources of wisdom; women as mad scientists; women as politicians; women as doctors; women as efficient, strong, lethal soldiers, and so on.
In other words, much Gothic literature focuses on women transgressing the boundaries of their behavior as wives and mothers, nurturing men and children. The idea of women making men *unecessary* also lurks...
There is also the flip fear of scientific men making women unnecessary. Both "Frankenstein" and "Dracula" posit forms of reproduction that do not require women; both have male figures usurping the maternal role; both are made less terrifying int hat respect in that the male figures do such a bad job of it. What if Dr.Frankenstein had accepted his role of sole parent to creatures, had done it well, had created more creatures, a loving, faithful family of superhuman (albeit ugly) members of a New Race?
Apocalipstick
17-03-2007, 21:33
In a lot of respects, there is nothing quite like Frankenstein in gothic literature. For one thing, it doesn't really observe the conventions of Victorian horror, for the simple reason that it predates it.
The point of Dr. Frankenstein is not that he tries and fails as a parent, but that he tries, and fails, as a god. Quite a bit of difference there.
Dracula, however, fully embodies every last bit of Victorian sensibility and anxiety, down to the late-Victorian obssession with honor and integrity of the male being housed in the body of the female. This is by no means a strictly Victorian construct, but a significant amount of Victorian horror depends on male conceptualizations of female sexuality.
Now to return to the Dark Sister, the images of which so far appear to be more Victorian-influenced, hence the comparison with Victorian horror, and not gothic horror in general. Granted, there are only a handful of images to be seen out a total of 78 (or more, if this will be anything like the VR).
In terms of "pushing envelopes," which is a term that seems to have acquired a life of its own the the last few posts, some of the images seem to be flirting with the possibility of real darkness - I'm really only thinking of the Tower here - but holding back from really delivering that ice stiletto to the heart, which is something that successful gothic literature has done quite well.
To me, the Tower looks too safe. Of course, this is a highly subjective opinion.
I really am focusing on mood and atmosphere, to the exclusion of other considerations. How MR approaches tarot creation is neither here nor there, from my perspective. Each deck is its own entity, even tough the same creative team or artist is responsible.
At the risk of repeating myself, I really can't wait to see more of the Dark Sister. I second the request of the King of Pentacles. :D
Karen, is Poe's "Ligeia" one of the tales that are being used as inspiration for the cards?
Curious as it's a favorite of mine...
ZenMusic
18-03-2007, 00:37
rereading Gothic by Botting ?
Another great read on Gothic is Art of Darkness ::Anne Williams with 3premises: that Gothic is "poetic," not novelistic, in nature; that there are two parallel Gothic traditions, Male and Female; and that the Gothic and the Romantic represent a single literary tradition.
and for sensuous philosophy.. the classic.. A Philosophical Enquiry into the Origin of our Ideas of the Sublime and Beautiful by Edmund Burke
I love Gothic literature, art... the deck must be dark enough... but underlying Goth is " linked with an appreciation of the joys of extreme emotion, the thrill of fearfulness and awe inherent in the sublime, and a quest for atmosphere"
Vargo's Gothic deck has many really beautiful and unnerving cards, though printed on very poor quality cards (thin, too small), it's wonderful to look at.. don't care for the other attempts so far, but I suspect yours will be wonderful
no borders will be great.. I have trimmed the borders off several of my large decks (one is the Thoth) and it makes it look astonishingly better, like holding the images instead of a card picturing it.. more involving.. seductive..(a gothic theme)
Here is an example comparing a bordered and unboardered card
http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=7831
geministar
18-03-2007, 01:28
OMG!!!! Im so excited, this looks great, another Baba deck coming out!
Now I will just try and settle myself down, go back and start reading through this thread.
Tesseljoan
18-03-2007, 05:03
I am glad this thread has some debate and interesting questions in it.
When the anticipation for the Victorian Romantic was building, I did not like the look of it at all. Yet everybody was saying how wonderful it looked, what a fantastic reading deck it would be, as good, nay better then the Prague... etc.
And, silly me, I convinced myself something was wrong with me.
Anyway, I appreciate opinions that deviate from the buy-vibe, even if they are appreciating of the deck.
Sooooo, to the BG. I like the looks of this one, and will probably purchase it. ;) It might not give a chill, but it does have a moody quality that I like.
baba-prague
18-03-2007, 05:49
Hmm, interesting. I think, again, that this comes down broadly to whether you find a film like "Van Helsing" frightening, or whether Herzog's "Nosferatu" is what touches and disturbs you. Sorry, to repeat this, but the analogy works. I found "Van Helsing" boring and ludicrous - okay, there are shock moments, but it was all so unsubtle that it reminded me of "boy's own" novels from the forties - fighting the monsters and all that. The werewolf was tragic in the wrong way - just tragically misconceived.
Herzog's Nosferatu? A very quiet, still film with no shlock-horror to be seen. But frightening - chills the soul. Utterly Gothic - real horror.
So, our deck does not hold back. If you feel that then the deck may not be for you - and you may also be someone who doesn't respond to Herzog I'd suspect. You won't see a lot of blood and gore and over the top monsters in our imagery - to me they're kitschy and detract from anything that goes deep, they're far too surface to be interesting (okay, a certain kind of kitsch - but not this one - is part of the Gothic, but that's another topic).
Do we want these cards to be like the Vargo? No, if that's what is being asked for then it's best to stick with the Vargo, I know it works really well for some people. I don't want to go down that route at all. I respect the Vargo, but do I find it chilling? Personally not even one little bit :)
I think each of the two decks will tend to attract different users - in one way they are too different to appeal to the same people.
I think it is interesting to see how this deck, while still in the making, is carrying an energy with it that is bringing out these important questions that we are discussing here about honesty and constructive criticism, authenticity and creativity, the risk of remaining within our comfort-zones etc, which is not a question directed only at artists or creators of tarot decks, but pointed at ourselves also, as human beings, tarot-readers and deck-owners. Because buying a new deck every day/week/month can also be a way of avoiding to break new ground and challenge ourselves by going deeper with ourselves instead of surfing the safe wave of consumption. In my opinion, we, as tarot-readers, need to push the envelope also. It is not only up to the creators.
That this deck is already giving us an opportunity to bring these issues to the table, out of the darkness of the human psyche and into the light, seems very promising to me. After all, that is what it intended to do, right? I certainly welcome that challenge, and the way that these images seem to connect us to those parts of ourselves that need to be verbalized through similar processes that we are creating here, and given room to heal.
Personally, I am very grateful to Magic Realist Press for how the energy that they put in their artistry and their decks works for me. Everything, from the readings I do with their decks to the new images they present seem to come at the right time, and carry deep personal meaning for me. I can only say that I am so grateful for that. And having said that I certainly welcome this challenge to confront my own inner darker sister.
Little Baron
18-03-2007, 06:23
I do not know much about the sources that many of you are talking about, so I won't comment on them. My knowledge of gothic horror is slim, if not non-existant. But once again, always interested to add something new to my mental reading list.
My viewpoint, I suppose, is based on tarot, image and pallette. I appreciate that I am lacking in my ignorance of the gothic and these films that people are speaking about. But I think we said before Karen, that like you, I find the often 'unseen' sometimes scarier than the 'seen'. I couldn't tell you what film it is but many of us must have seen that very old film clip where the shadow is walking up the stairs with the long fingers. That freaks me tens of times more than some 'in your face' bloody horror flick. I get the idea that that is what you mean, yes? And I agree, the antisipation and suspence is far more chilling. And in lots of ways, isn't tarot reading about the possibility, rather than the actual instance? In 'The Tower' [an image I favour on my little list, above mentioned], I guess it is what it holds inside that could be important. As a symbol, many of us do not need to see it exploding to understand the dramatic possibilities that it holds.
One deck I cannot 'get' is the Vampire one. Not the Vargo. Might be by LoS. The amount of blood round their gobs actually turns my stomach, which is a shame, because I quite like some of the other cards. I think I mentioned in another thread, in the film of 'Jaws', wasn't it so much scarier when you couldn't see the shark? And almost laughable in the times when you saw too much of it. All that suspence was killed.
It may not have seemed so, but I am very interested to watch this work-piece develop :)
And Tesslejoan, thank God for you. Yes, it is good to have opinions that deviate from the buy-vibe [I love that term]. It makes threads like this so much more interesting. I have said before, that if I wandered into a thread like this, considering spending my money on a deck, I would prefer an all-rounded set of opinions.
LB
whipsilk
18-03-2007, 06:23
First, LittleBuddha, let me thank you for honestly bringing your opinion to this forum. It's an all-too-often risky undertaking to attempt to give a balanced view of an artist's works, and can often descend into more personal exchanges if the artist responds defensively (as is occurring in another thread in this section), understandable as that defensiveness is. As a creator (in this case, an actor) I understand how difficult it is to gracefully accept criticism of work we've poured such a huge amount of energy, both physical and psychological, into. Fortunately, Karen seems to be one of those rare souls who can respond to such comments without being threatened.
So I personally don't even comment on the vast majority of decks (especially those in the Creation forum) because my comments wouldn't be positive. On the other hand, the rare deck that does have a strong appeal for me (I count Dark Sister as one, Em's stunning Transparent Tarot and the richly imagined Quantum Tarot -- for entirely different reasons -- as two others), I will support with a healthy dose of drool. I suspect many others here operate the same way. I know it's gratifying to the artist, while also recognizing that it's almost completely void of being in any way helpful to the artistic process. I don't mind contributing to that gratification, which can be psychologically so very supportive.
Veering into another aspect of this thread, I have to say that one reason I have such respect and fondness for the work of Magic Realist, is that they have mastered the difficult art of collage. Literally no one else has managed this (well, okay, Kat Black has). There are very popular decks made of collaged images that have appeared on AT's annual ten best lists, which appear clunky and wholly artificial to me, but MR's decks are so skillfully and seamlessly collaged that I don't even recognize them as collaged images when I read with them; the one MR deck I frankly don't like has little to do with the collage, everything to do with the theme.
I have long wanted a dark deck that really speaks to me; to date none have. The Archeon is a beautiful deck, but I have yet to locate its dark voice. The Fantastical is striking in its lines and sinuous art, but also fails to scratch that dark itch. Other "dark" decks I simply find boring and cliche-ridden. The few Dark Sister cards I've seen have literally reached into that night-colored place in my psyche and been welcomed. In literature, only a few of M.R. James's stories (NOT Henry) and Fritz Lieber's darkest works have managed that. In film, well maybe Arrabal and Jodorowsky have come closest. So I genuinely welcome this deck, and know it will have an important place in my life.
Little Baron
18-03-2007, 06:35
I think it is interesting to see how this deck, while still in the making, is carrying an energy with it that is bringing out these important questions that we are discussing here about honesty and constructive criticism, authenticity and creativity, the risk of remaining within our comfort-zones etc, which is not a question directed only at artists or creators of tarot decks, but pointed at ourselves also, as human beings, tarot-readers and deck-owners. Because buying a new deck every day/week/month can also be a way of avoiding to break new ground and challenge ourselves by going deeper with ourselves instead of surfing the safe wave of consumption. In my opinion, we, as tarot-readers, need to push the envelope also. It is not only up to the creators.
This section is so perfectly put and could/should hold a thread, all of it's own.
And Whipsilk, I agree with all you have said. The seamless collaging is extremely admirable. In a sense, the VR almost feels like it was a bridge to this. I am thinking of cards like it's '9 of Swords' that were veering towards this subtle horror we speak about.
And I know that I was looking for a dark deck from day one, back in 1997. I found the Rohrig, and like the Archeon and all the others, none of them satisfied my taste-buds. Despite my questions, from what I can see, this is the closest yet. I appreciate that Karen says this is more an 'occasion' deck, but I think I have always searched for 'the one', which puts just a little more pressure on a deck and carries a little bit more weight in my search. Maybe this is where my often brash comments come from.
But what I like and can see is being avoided, is that this is darkness, without the cheese.
LB
baba-prague
18-03-2007, 06:52
Well, I'll just say that I had the same reaction to the LS Vampires. Too much blood everywhere (and why such messy eating?)
But that's precisely what has made that deck work well for many people - I've seen here that for many people the blatant blood is important. So I think our approach isn't better or worse. But it's quite different.
I even considered putting a small trail of blood from the corner of the Queen of Swords mouth, but then decided not. Too "stated" - it would close down the meaning too much. Is she vampiric? You, the viewer/user has to decide. Is the sword hers? Or did it belong to a man who at some point in the past attacked her with it, meaning to drive it through her heart? If the latter, then we can see clearly what became of him - all his bones nicely arranged in a parody of a religious symbol, in front of which she stands quietly reading...
The Queen herself is beautiful, she draws us in and in a sense "seduces" us - and that's also the point. If she is just repulsive (like the Van Helsing film's bony-bat Brides) then our options are easy. But if we KNOW what she may be, and still find her touching and lovely (shades of Carmilla again) then we're asked to question ourselves. That, I think, is far more powerful than the "quick shock" bit of visceral reaction that so many modern horror visuals go for.
temperlyne
18-03-2007, 07:15
So I personally don't even comment on the vast majority of decks (especially those in the Creation forum) because my comments wouldn't be positive.
As much as I love AT and specially the creation forum, the general lack of good, constructive criticism, for me as an "artist", is frustrating at times. I would welcome any feedback, as negative feedback is usually far more challenging and helpful in the long run. I hope most creators create not to have their ego's drooled on, but to explore and express their views of tarot. So why the reluctancy to express honest opinions? It's nice that At is a save and gentle place, but a bit less suger and a bit more spice would be nicer.
I couldn't tell you what film it is but many of us must have seen that very old film clip where the shadow is walking up the stairs with the long fingers. That freaks me tens of times more than some 'in your face' bloody horror flick.
LB
I think you are referring to "Nosferatu, eine Symphonie des Grauens" by F.W. Murnau from 1922 (so it's silent movie). Seen as one of the first cinematic adaptation of Stokers Dracula (alas without the permission of his widow so most of the original films where destroyed - luckily some survived!) - look at your lockal DVD store for it
greenbeans
18-03-2007, 07:41
Back when I did a gothic module at uni. we were taught the difference between 2 types of gothic fiction:
'horror' -lots of gross out blatant scenes, in your face, overstated, creates short-lived disgusted fear, eg The Monk
'terror' -lots of suggestion, subtler, not so much gore, more atmosphere, drawn-out suspenseful fear, eg The Italian
I don't think this dichotomy always works, but its just a useful way at looking of the 2 ways writers created fear. Personally I prefer terror, and always prefer films which seem to draw more from this tradition. And if the Bohemian Gothic preview is anything to go by, it is closer to this idea of the gothic, which I don't think any previous gothic tarot has managed.
9 of Swords reminds me eerily of a decades' old black & white movie called "Carnival of Souls"--a sort of quiet horror movie.
Particularly where the female lead, Mary Henry, is inexplicably drawn to a deserted carnival outside of town & compelled to dance the night with an eerie man who looks more dead than alive.
At the time I first saw it, I had no idea it was a horror movie; thus, memorable as not only the first such movie, but also for its story.
For me, the movie's success as a horror story lies in its apparent ordinaryness & its dream-like sequences. Along with subtle details, they combine to deliver a gradual realization & a dawning horror that simultaneously repels & fascinates.
baba-prague
18-03-2007, 07:58
I think you are referring to "Nosferatu, eine Symphonie des Grauens" by F.W. Murnau from 1922 (so it's silent movie). Seen as one of the first cinematic adaptation of Stokers Dracula (alas without the permission of his widow so most of the original films where destroyed - luckily some survived!) - look at your lockal DVD store for it
Yes, and Herzog did a remake which is both a homage and a beautiful (if flawed, but then Herzog always takes risks) in its own right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosferatu_the_Vampyre
http://www.imagesjournal.com/issue08/reviews/nosferatu/text.htm
http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GFRG,GFRG:2007-09,GFRG:en&q=herzog%2C%20nosferatu&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi
baba-prague
18-03-2007, 08:26
As much as I love AT and specially the creation forum, the general lack of good, constructive criticism, for me as an "artist", is frustrating at times. I would welcome any feedback, as negative feedback is usually far more challenging and helpful in the long run. I hope most creators create not to have their ego's drooled on, but to explore and express their views of tarot. So why the reluctancy to express honest opinions? It's nice that At is a save and gentle place, but a bit less suger and a bit more spice would be nicer.
This is interesting commentary Temperlyne and I agree that sometimes more upfront criticism is needed in Creation (though I've also seen people shot down in flames when they've tried).
However, I think there is a difference between posting in "Creation" and asking for feedback. and having a deck posted here in "Decks". I suppose that in Creation I expect to see more "card-by-card" critique. Here that isn't always appropriate. Well, the thread gets very long and a bit derailed apart from anything - but beyond that the focus on individual cards can detract from a view of the deck as a whole at times.
That doesn't mean that I think comments should be all positive - or all negative. Both can be very useful - to everyone, not just the deck designer/s. But it does make me a bit cautious of posting individual cards here (I think larger batches may be different) as I don't want to imply that we're asking for the kind of micro-commentary that happens more on Creation.
The experience of showing the Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot card by card as they were done taught me that there is a fine line between welcoming input and ending up feeling like you're on the end of a "design committee". Okay, I'm smiling as I say that, but we really aren't wanting simply to take the route that gets the most votes. At times on BBCats we had people saying things like "Please add a mouse in this cat's paw" - and it just wasn't in fact that helpful, while at the same time it felt embarrassing to blatantly ignore such detailed requests. I found that really exhausting at times, and the last thing you need when designing a deck is to be exhausted!
By the time we're making final (or 90% final) cards, we have the entire deck in mind (and usually a lot of it in sketch form) and we know how one element is intended to balance out another. That can awkwardly make it appear that we're unresponsive to suggestions. However, I will say that on the few occasions we've taken up a strong suggestion from the forums against our better judgement (because of our overview of the entire deck direction) it's usually been a mistake. In the end we have to follow our own beliefs and judgement, while remaining open to hearing comments. From time to time we may of course ask for input on some particular issue we're struggling with - and when that happens AT people can be enormously knowledgeable and helpful.
I hope I've expressed that well and it doesn't seem arrogant. It's just supposed to be an honest explanation of why I see the purpose of "Creation" and "Decks" on AT as being different. I suppose that the very involved discussions and disagreements about our cards all happen here between me and Alex, and many, many options will have already been battled over before we ever show cards here. If it wasn't like that I think the danger would be bland, confused decks. Or decks that feel like "Pick and Mix" - it always worries me when a deck designer is so unsure of their vision that they repeatedly ask "Should I use this image, or this, or this?" I understand why that happens, but I'm not sure that a strong deck is likely to emerge from such a process. I see such questions as signs that the deck creator would perhaps be better locking themselves away from all input for a while (except perhaps for some known and trusted critic) and working out clearly and confidently their own design, purpose and style for their deck rather than asking for blow-by-blow comments on each and every individual card.
Does any of that make sense?
Little Baron
18-03-2007, 08:44
I appreciate your honesty Karen. And I understand what you mean.
I have often thought that when I have read threads by other artists here, where people have said 'add this' or 'it would be my perfect deck if you did that'. I don't have the ideas, let alone the interest in shaping someone elses work in that fashion. For me, I am just commenting on the product as it evolves as a whole. Unfortunately, it probably is a little card specific at the moment, since we have seen so few. In this thread, I have been commenting on impression and mood, I hope, alone.
I also see what you mean about 'decks' and 'creation'. I have created some bits and bobs here in my time. Some not very sophisticated. And some a little better than the not very sophisticated. Of course, it is nice when someone says they like something. And it can be wounding when they say they don't. But for me to put it out there, I have to appreciate that others are not going to see things from my viewpoint. An annonymous person commented on my Sun card, saying he would make a better Devil. Ok, comment appreciated. But as my deck, I suppose I see him in the way that I do and since it was only being created for 'me' that is fair enough.
But I also like a meaty thread that doesn't just blob along with 'oooohs' and 'ah's'. It has become so bloody predictable on here of late. The stuff about Victorian horror, films and the difference between horror and terror has been very interesting, and when I buy the deck, I might do a little side-line research.
But less about me. I am looking forward to seeing some of the guys in this deck. I might be the only one that is actually glad that this deck won't be titled the 'Dark Sister'. It gives it a very feminine [almost extremely strong femenine] influence that I felt a touch excluded from. I know that is silly and that it wasn't intentional to make it a deck for women on the main, but that was how it felt to me.
LB
EDITED to remove a comment that was insensitive to another. Apologies to that person.
Little Baron
18-03-2007, 08:53
What you say makes a lot of sense, Karen. Total sense.
I think that a thread like this, for you two, could be quite stifling, in terms of the creative process; and confusing. If I was you, I think that I wouldn't bother posting any more cards and just get on with it. Personally, I think it is far nicer to see the thing as 'one' at the end. There is always going to be posts that are going to concentrate on one little detail. And that is quite different than viewing a finished product in it's entirity. And posting them here and going through all of this could be extremely exhausting for you, mentally. I remember in Kats thread, how people were discussing which head they liked better on the shoulders of one of the characters. Aside from using your own better judgement, that kind of jury doesn't really aid your own creation and shouldn't affect it. I would have thought it hinders it.
Maybe you should retire to the dungeon, and come back and see us in Autumn when you have created your monster ;)
LB
HearthCricket
18-03-2007, 10:03
Do we want these cards to be like the Vargo? No, if that's what is being asked for then it's best to stick with the Vargo, I know it works really well for some people. I don't want to go down that route at all. I respect the Vargo, but do I find it chilling? Personally not even one little bit :)
I think each of the two decks will tend to attract different users - in one way they are too different to appeal to the same people.
I suppose I am one of the few that will like both. The Gothic Vargo is not chilling to me, either. It is almost ethereal in many places and other cards almost look out of place. Many of the cards still remind me of the graveyard scene in the latest move version of Phantom of the Opera. It isn't a bad thing-I use this deck-but it doesn't quite capture the eerie, creepy, spine chilling feeling I would like to have. It doesn't allow for nightmares or jumping at things that go bump in the night! I want a deck that is beautiful, image wise, but also makes me uncomfortable! So far your pictures are doing just that.
Apocalipstick
18-03-2007, 13:40
9 of Swords reminds me eerily of a decades' old black & white movie called "Carnival of Souls"--a sort of quiet horror movie.
Spot on, MeeWah!
I had intense dreams for nights after watching that. Granted, I was about seven or eight when I first saw it, but it's stayed with me since.
As soon as I found a copy, I bought it.
The 9 of Swords has that feel.
Herzog's Nosferatu? A very quiet, still film with no shlock-horror to be seen. But frightening - chills the soul. Utterly Gothic - real horror.
Totally beautiful film.
baba-prague
18-03-2007, 14:20
Totally beautiful film.
Hi Lillie. Yes, if we could get even a hint of that I'm be content. That film amazes me every single time I watch it.
Well, I'll just say that I had the same reaction to the LS Vampires. Too much blood everywhere (and why such messy eating?)
But that's precisely what has made that deck work well for many people - I've seen here that for many people the blatant blood is important. So I think our approach isn't better or worse. But it's quite different.
I even considered putting a small trail of blood from the corner of the Queen of Swords mouth, but then decided not. Too "stated" - it would close down the meaning too much. Is she vampiric? You, the viewer/user has to decide.
There are other ways to be vampiric than by drinking blood. I think you made a good decision.
I admire the High Priestess card very much. Seeing the source image for this card it just amazed me how nuanced your work with facial expressions is.
The Tower card actually did inspire a sense of forboding in me and also that sense of, you know, "home" that dark imagery can bring up for those who are drawn to it.
I didn't like the "danse macabre" scene very much though. In fact my first reaction was laughter. Maybe if I could see it larger it would have more impact.
I can't *wait* to see more cards! I suppose the Moon card will be very very special. I'm really hoping this turns out to be a deck I can use and love. Anyway it is sure to be lovely.
--Myrrha
Apocalipstick
18-03-2007, 15:54
It looks like the most mixed reactions so far have been to the 9 of Swords and the Tower.
Could it be because darkness is so personal, we're all sure exactly what it is? ;)
baba-prague: Whilst feedback on a developing deck can be helpful in providing insights, best to conserve the focus & not corrupt the artistic vision &/or even hinder the creative process.
Based on those decks created thus far, the artistic vision uniquely realized in each deck, & each with its distinctive personality.
The Bohemian Gothic Tarot promises more of those same qualities that contributes to the success of all the previous decks. If not 'more'. More in the sense that in my view, more skill required to convey the horrific by the quiet & subtle means rather than by the in-your-face horrific--blood & gore (hence, the reference to the film, "Carnival of Souls"). Can easily see that this deck promises just those subtleties which can also contribute to a deck's versatility & the memorable experiences with it.
Finally a deck from Baba Studio that seem to speak to me! This is great guys! Spasiba Horrosjo!
rereading Gothic by Botting ?
Another great read on Gothic is Art of Darkness ::Anne Williams with 3premises: that Gothic is "poetic," not novelistic, in nature; that there are two parallel Gothic traditions, Male and Female; and that the Gothic and the Romantic represent a single literary tradition. Gothic lit and film is one of my obsessions and I'd like to second the recommendation for Williams Art of Darkness, Karen... It's pretty spectacular! As is the Botting for a quick overview.
I'm over the moon about this deck, obviously! And just to stoke the creative coals, I'll just add a couple more book suggestions that I've found especially inspiring when working on Gothic projects of my own. Any of these will wind up oft-read and spark thoughts in the birthing of the monstre }):
The Contested Castle: Gothic Novels and the Subversion of Domestic Ideology by Kate Ellis (which is sort of a cornerstone classic of modern Gothic scholarship)
The Biology of Horror by Jack Morgan
In the Circles of Fear and Desire by William Patrick Day
Mazes of the Serpent: An Anatomy of Horror Narrative by Roger Salomon
The Coherence of Gothic Conventions by Eve Sedgwick
If you want more book recs, just say. :) You know how much I love recommending books. And I;'m such a completist that if it's on Gothic, odds are I own it. No lie. :D I'm a fierce Herzog fan (Anyone ever seen My Best Fiend? Vicious!) and can't wait to see where you end up with these ideas.
And thank you to Greenbeans for pointing out the distinction between Horror and Terror, they are two completely different modes that often work in tandem. But for some reason, studio execs have a harder time understanding Terror as richer or more compelling. And, uhhh, I'm speaking from experience there. ;) Hence the botched wreck that was Van Helsing, which in fact based on studio marketing and structure was technically an action film with horror elements. 'Nuff said!
Let me also second the vote against card-by-card art by committee. Invariably frustrating and valueless. After all, a camel is a horse designed by committee. Committees can barely design toilets. This is a thread in Decks and not Creation, which does indicate a difference in approach. Little Buddha offered some real, fair questions and got some extraordinarily articulate answers from several sides. Notice that he made no request for "mouse in paw" edits, but did more of a thematic probing. That seems a perfectly concrete question about a "Decks" thread and the kind of spur that can be useful. And frankly if it isn't, Karen and Alex will toss it in the bin: As they should.
Karen, you've got a big juicy ghoulash brewing here and I for one, napkin under my chin, am lining up with a stone bowl and an iron spoon for my portion...
Scion
Hi Lillie. Yes, if we could get even a hint of that I'm be content. That film amazes me every single time I watch it.
From the little I have seen of the deck, you are getting more of a hint.
Beautifully stylish.
I'm glad you didn't go the run of blood from the lips.
That's more Christopher Lee than Klaus Kinski! :D
ZenMusic
18-03-2007, 18:24
>LS Vampire
no, I didn't care for this at all...
>Vargo..
no, i wouldn't want another similar deck , it is beautiful and unique , don't copy it, but it is (for me) a perfect balance of dark and beauty..but i'd would have make it deeper , more symbolics/hermetic/myth or whatever throughout, andsome of the minors are not well represented for their meanings...
much of the value of anything Gothic is the depth of feelings, unknown, mystery, awe /// especially seduction, the sacrifice for love
of course it's all deeply symbolic.. the descent of the "pure" spirit into the "impure" world .. is like giving up eternal life, for a lifetime of experiences.. for love... is one way to view it
I go away for 3 days and find a whole new thread of 16 pages long LOL - I've just fallen in love with the Victorian Romantic but the Bohemian Gothic has really got my interest. I love anything Gothic, films, books and some of my other Gothic tarot decks. But I'm really waiting to see the rest of these cards. :)
baba-prague
19-03-2007, 05:59
Well, sadly we don't have any other cards that are really ready to show yet. Mostly I think we'll show them in batches rather than one by one (for the reasons I mentioned above). So - I think the next group of cards may be a while. We're pretty much focused on them, but we do also have to devote time to trying to get the printer to complete the Bohemian Cats second edition - sigh.
Karen, just to let you know that i think your post about the difference of discussing a deck in Creation and here in Tarot Decks makes total sense. I respect your artistic integrity completely and encourage you to keep as much of the artistic process to yourself, as you feel necessary. We certainly should not play the part of a self-proclaimed design committee just because you are generous enough to share different stages of your creations, unless you specifically ask our opinion. I understand how that could be potentially frustrating at times!
6 Haunted Days
19-03-2007, 09:12
Gothic lit and film is one of my obsessions and I'd like to second the recommendation for Williams Art of Darkness, Karen... It's pretty spectacular! As is the Botting for a quick overview.
I'm over the moon about this deck, obviously! And just to stoke the creative coals, I'll just add a couple more book suggestions that I've found especially inspiring when working on Gothic projects of my own. Any of these will wind up oft-read and spark thoughts in the birthing of the monstre }):
The Contested Castle: Gothic Novels and the Subversion of Domestic Ideology by Kate Ellis (which is sort of a c