Pyramids

[willowfox]

I have been wondering for a long time why the 3 pyramids of Giza are shown on the on the Page of Wands and he Knight of Wands cards?

Does anyone have a clue as to what these two cards have to do with pyramids and Egypt?

[Rosanne]

it is thought that the Artist Pamela Colman Smith, was influenced in part by the Sola Busca Deck of the late 15th Century. The photographs of the deck were at the British Museum, if memory serves me. Now both the Knight and the Page were shown on a barren landscape in much the same poses.
On both the tunics is a design of salamanders, whom symbolises the element of fire. In Christian thought a salamander is thought to be sexless- so shows Chastity; also enduring faith and the righteous man. Waite saw the Page as an envoy or messenger and the Knight as departure and flight. The pyramids are in the desert (a fiery place), they have a message for mankind, and they are seen as the departure place for journeys to the otherworld. The Golden dawn called the Page 'the Rose of the Palace of Fire' and the Knight the 'Prince of the Chariot of Fire' The three of the pyramids probably meant child of the royal household for the Page, and the three for the Knight as the third in the relationship of Queen, King and Knight. This is evoked by the or bought to mind by the Pyramids. Then again they might not be pyramids at all. ~Rosanne

[Rosanne]

oops willowfox, I did not make myself clear about the connection with Salamanders and the pyramids. The Ancient Egyptians used the Salamander as a hieroglyphic sign for a man who died alone and like the phoenix would rise again from the ashes.~Rosanne

[willowfox]

Hi,

thanks for the reply but I am still in the dark about what the pyramids have to do with these two cards only because the pyramid was supposed to be for the pharaoh, not lesser mortals such as pages and knights. Oh yes they are definitely the 3 pyramids at Giza. It just seems that the page and knight have nothing in common with Egypt or the pyramids. So what's the connection?

Could it be masonic?

[Sentient]

I don't have an adequate answer to this either.

I suspect that Pamela, after deciding to use the desert for the background of the wand court cards, may have been searching for a way to communicate "desert-ness."

Sand dunes would have been one idea, cactus another (but with their odd shape, cactus may have communicated additional unwanted impressions, and not all deserts have cactus).

People the world over associate pyramids with the desert, however. And since AE Waite had never been shy promoting the supposed Egyptian connection, Pamela might have felt this was a good choice.

[Elnor]

I've wondered about this, too- why the Page and the Knight, and not the King and Queen? To me it seemed like they would be the ones (being royal) who would have had the pyramids in their cards.

elnor

[Rosanne]

As I said I am not so sure they are pyramids, but maybe alluding to pyramids.
I have scanned the Queen of Wands; look to the right side of the throne? Are they not also 'Pyramids'?
I think it is like Sentient said it is about 'desert-ness'.
Here is a quote from a book called The Complete New Tarot that uses RWS. The desert is the landscape of wands in this book.
The Knight of Wands rides on a sandy- coloured horse and passes several pyramids in the background; they symbolize eternal manifestation. I came from sunset to here and I am going to sunrise. I am causing sunrise and sunset This is from Celtic mythology, but is equally Egyptian in concept.
of the Page..
Against a backdrop of the pyramids, the Page proclaims the message of the procreation, the inception of the new plan, a new life

It is also true of the Salamander that it is a symbol of genius. What is more 'genius' than the pyramids in concept? The Salamander appears on all four Courts of Wands. I am still not convinced my self that they are pyramids, Robert Place says they is disagreement as to whether they not be mounds of desolation/desert. ~Rosanne

[paradoxx]

hmmm, i was hpping to find and image of the "tarot of the new vision" knight of wands, thsi 180 turnaround of the original rider/waite designs shows the horuse mounted knight on nhis stargled horse witnessing an approaching caravan of camel bound riders. Thsi indicates that this knight is a journeyman in a strange land, that he may someday come to rule (from page to knight who meets a maid then becomign queen and king).

just my two cents on the matter.

[BodhiSeed]

I've always thought of the pyramids on these cards as an inspiration to explore new lands (representing new ideas and possiblilities). I can't think of anything more inspiring than the pyramids as a symbol of this.
As far as the salamanders go, it is interesting to note that the tails are curved, almost like an ouroboros, but it is not until the king that the tails actually touch the mouths.

Bodhran

http://www.learntarot.com/bigjpgs/wands11.jpg
http://www.learntarot.com/bigjpgs/wands12.jpg
http://www.learntarot.com/bigjpgs/wands14.jpg

[Debra]

Oh for cryin' out loud, that's so perceptive I can hardly stand it.

[uwe]

If they are indeed pyramids, then the artwork is exceedingly poor.
Like the rest of you, i'd like to believe they are, and the romantic in
me agrees with you. Why then do they look like mountains? Are we to
assume that Pamela Colman Smith could not draw them correctly? What
would the purpose be in a feeble attempt to mask them as mountains?

[BodhiSeed]

Uwe,
I agree with you; they do look more like mountains than actual pyramids. I guess the landscape (dry, no green vegetation) makes us assume they are pyramids. Perhaps she was trying to connect them to the many mountain peaks she had drawn in the deck too? I suppose we'll never really know unless someone can channel Pamela for us :grin:.

Bodhran

[Debra]

What
would the purpose be in a feeble attempt to mask them as mountains?

Well, i don't know...lots of stuff is half-hidden in this deck. Seems par for the course to me.

[Teheuti]

I think they are either pyramids or sand dunes and meant to be a reference to the two characteristics of the element fire: hot and dry. The salamanders are the elemental of fire. They are circled much like the snake with its tail in its mouth - the uroborous - which signifies eternity. Could this be an oblique reference to reincarnation or the belief in the Egyptian afterlife? Just as a salamander was believed to be able to walk through fire and not get burned, so the spark (fire) of life that is the eternal soul countinues after this life.

Mary

[BodhiSeed]

Could this be an oblique reference to reincarnation or the belief in the Egyptian afterlife? Just as a salamander was believed to be able to walk through fire and not get burned, so the spark (fire) of life that is the eternal soul countinues after this life.

Mary

Ah... yes, I think you might be on to something here Mary! Thanks for this insight!

Bodhran

[Elnor]

I think one thing we are forgetting is that today we have an endless supply of images, photographs, television documentaries; the web, catalogues from tutankhamun's exhibition..etc, etc,...we all know what the pyramids and the sphinx look like- they are totally familiar landmarks to us all, even if we've never set foot in Egypt.

Pamela, living in England at the tale end of the Victorian era, would have had to have relied upon grainy, black and white photographs, etchings, or hand tinted reproductions- don't forget the Sphinx was almost completely buried in the sands and not fully excavated until about 1936!

Old photos from that time of course are primarily of the sphinx... the pyramids are generally in the background, often partially obscured.

Here are two photographs that would have been of the type she might have seen:

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j284/jaenor363/VictorianGirlsinEgypt.jpg

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j284/jaenor363/SailorsandPyramids.jpg

and here is a website with several photos of the Sphinx during the years of excavation:

http://www.egyptvoyager.com/pyramids_giza_sphinxinpicture_1.htm

I think Pamela's (admittedly rather mountain-like pyramids!) are in all honesty quite like how they appear in the photos. :)

elnor

[BodhiSeed]

Thanks for those photos, Elnor. They do help put things in perspective!

Bodhran

[WolfSinger]

Actually, it seems even AE Waite wasn't sure whether Pamela's drawings were pyramids or not. From The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, describing the Knight of Wands:
He is shewn as if upon a journey, armed with a short wand, and although mailed is not on a warlike errand. He is passing mounds or pyramids...

[Debra]

Pamela, living in England at the tale end of the Victorian era, would have had to have relied upon grainy, black and white photographs, etchings, or hand tinted reproductions



Oh boy. That is such an excellent point!

[Abrac]

In this deck Wands represents creative energy. To the Golden Dawn and many of their contemporaries the pyramids were considered temples of initiation into the Mysteries, which involved mastery of the creative forces. Whether they were or not is a matter of debate, but this gives us a clue into what might have been on Smith's mind when she created the images.

[willowfox]

In this deck Wands represents creative energy. To the Golden Dawn and many of their contemporaries the pyramids were considered temples of initiation into the Mysteries, which involved mastery of the creative forces. Whether they were or not is a matter of debate, but this gives us a clue into what might have been on Smith's mind when she created the images.

But why are they only on the Page, Knight and Queen of Wands?

[Abrac]

I'm not sure about that. To me the Page and Knight are the only ones that clearly could be pyramids. The Queen looks questionable. Indeed a mystery.

[tarot heart]

Actually, it seems even AE Waite wasn't sure whether Pamela's drawings were pyramids or not. From The Pictorial Key to the Tarot, describing the Knight of Wands
Quote:
He is shewn as if upon a journey, armed with a short wand, and although mailed is not on a warlike errand. He is passing mounds or pyramids... :



I must admit I have often wondered if those are actually pyramids. Considering the size of them and the perspective they seem too small. However I have been to countries and islands where ant hills are enormous! Perhaps?

Does anyone have any definitive information on why PCS drew these figures, whatever they are? Very interesting.

[re-pete-a]

They may be attached to the 3 higher mystery principles of ATMAN, BUDDI, MANAS.

The three higher graces, said to be the levels needed to be worked through.
Astral , Etheric , physical.

The salamanders may represent the emotional fires that engulf but teach a lesson eventually.
The heart tried and perhaps purified by the fires of emotions.

[Parzival]

Why does the base of the front one flow out like water? Not so sure that these are pyramids, I think they may be three mounds, possibly for three messages.

[re-pete-a]

methinks that the pyramids of that time weren't excavated to show their bases as they are today.

[brightcrazystar]

It is Rosicrucian, SRIA. Monsalvat is 3 mountains, Abiegnos is the tallest. They are the three Adepts who discover the Body of Signor Gualdi. The Three Mountains contain the Apartment, the Laboratory, and the Chapel.

The SRIA tell the story of the Master of the Temple, Signor Gualdi, who labored in the Chapel while the others attended to the Laboratory. The Bell sounded indicating he wished his Three Chief Adepts to come to him, and they found him dead. In letters of fire he had written with his wand [Igne Nitrum Roris Invenitur], "by Fire the Nitre of the dew is extracted"

I.N.R.I.

They placed his un-aging body, dead but not lifeless, in the Vault of the Adepts. They await for him to arise. Then they proceeded to all have adventures with his wand, which can be easily tied to the images of the three with the pyramids. These are the Court Cards of wands, and Senior Gualdi is the King, who is of course, Jeshua returned, Crowned and Conquering.

The Pass-word of the first Grade of the Order is I.H.Sh.V.H.

The three mountains are Biblically, Mt. Sinai, Mt. Beth El, and Mt. Moriah, known as Golgotha.

[lucifall]

It is Rosicrucian, SRIA. Monsalvat is 3 mountains
http://www.dermeister.nl/P/P.html

'Zum Raum wird hier die Zeit'

Holy grail , Holy Spear - Yeshuah
Mary?

[brightcrazystar]

Change of topic, in brief, to parsifal. Have you seen Syberberg's Parsifal.
I love this movie, and have the 4.5 DVD.

Back to topic:
Yup. The Lance in the Gra'al Myth is heavily connected to the adventures of Signor Gualdi's lance in the hands of the Three Adepts. Two are male, one is female (omg, spoiler!!!) But they symbolize the Three Principles, the Three Gunas (Rajas, Sattva, Tamas) and all the rest.

In the interior Christian symblogy of the SRIA, they are Peter, Paul (Saul of Tarsus), and Mary Magdalene. It is inclusive of the Joseph of Aramathea legend, and the reason the order is called, SRIA.

Societas Rosicrucianis in Anglia.

The "ANGLIA" is England, where it is believed the Rosy Cross was buried, and it's location was veiled in the Arthurian Legend, the King of Camelot whose birth at Caerleon was the emblem of his Court.

This is the basis of Joshua the Mighty, the heritage of the tribe of Judah in Jeshua through Mary, and all other demigod Kings who bear the Lion as their Standard, the Staff as their Comfort, and The Heavens as their Roof.

[lucifall]

I am not familiar with Syberberg's Parsifal, but as violinist with Wagner's Parsifal.

It is inclusive of the Joseph of Aramathea legend, and the reason the order is called, SRIA..
This legend is a ritual of a week for the European Roma Gypsy's in St Marie de la Mer in France.
They worship and celebrate Sainte Sarah, The black Madonna. Sara La Kali, servant of Mary (as gypsies teached me)
I have been there in St Marie de la Mer, with my violin, in my hippy-time.
A happening to make part of!and Really Pure devotion!
It hints the whole grail-story in the Roma Gypsy-(indian)way.
Luci'

Edit: Igoogled it Syberberg's Parsifal is here Hitlers Parsifal in Film.
Wagner was (by the way) a favorite composer of Hitler and what i once learned: Crowley corresponded with that moustached man.

[brightcrazystar]

Lucifall,

I see you typing, but where is the link to your music. My life has been painfully bare of string and bow since my good friend Soror Marfiza passed. Do you have a link, or some music you care to share? I wished I could play violin, as I have such an interest in music theory, but guitar, after 3 months of lessons, was not my real instrument of choice.

BTW - Hans-Jurgen Syberberg's Parsifal is a production of Wagner's that is, in a word, monumental. Sorry for the confusions. You will love it, based on our conversations.

Thank you for this fascinating connection to your past. Wow!

[lucifall]

I was playing nice in my hippy time. It is quit a story, but i want to share this

As kid my father was playing Cello. Always there were people playing music at our home, so i decided at 6 to play violin. My father , very enthousiastic, as he left chances in that part of life, sought a teacher for the Violin Part and another teacher for (Whole) saturdays for other education/ music related.
Absolute hearing was the result. When awaked at night i was able to sing a clear A.
But in my teenage years at 11, I decided Punk was the Way, so walking with a violin across the street was not my thing anymore. I stopped.
In my 20th year of living i decided to pick it up again.
I found a teacher, his dad was a Gypsy Cimbalist and his mother an Irish violinist. I studied 2 years. Intensive. I had some goals to play in the Classical: Four seasons of Vivaldi; Violinconcertos of Bach And The violin parts of Wagners Parsifal. But prefered the Irish Folk, Jewish Folk and Gypsy music. I went to Ste Marie de la Mer, played there with my beloved Roma's,
went back and started another career in Consumer electronics.
Quited again.
That was 25 years ago, so (very unfortunatelly) no youtube-thingies available.
This summer i bought a new violin (i still had 3) for the coming season to jam
on Ruigoord, a village of Artist under the smoke of the harbour of Amsterdam.
Jamming near the camp-fire on the festivals...nearly the only place where this is (still) possible(allowed) in the Netherlands...
so maybe after the coming festival season I will be on youtube, playing with my brothers and sisters of the dutch Amsterdam's ballonnen gezelschap on Ruigoord....


Luci

[re-pete-a]

It is Rosicrucian, SRIA. Monsalvat is 3 mountains, Abiegnos is the tallest. They are the three Adepts who discover the Body of Signor Gualdi. The Three Mountains contain the Apartment, the Laboratory, and the Chapel.

The SRIA tell the story of the Master of the Temple, Signor Gualdi, who labored in the Chapel while the others attended to the Laboratory. The Bell sounded indicating he wished his Three Chief Adepts to come to him, and they found him dead. In letters of fire he had written with his wand [Igne Nitrum Roris Invenitur], "by Fire the Nitre of the dew is extracted"

I.N.R.I.

They placed his un-aging body, dead but not lifeless, in the Vault of the Adepts. They await for him to arise. Then they proceeded to all have adventures with his wand, which can be easily tied to the images of the three with the pyramids. These are the Court Cards of wands, and Senior Gualdi is the King, who is of course, Jeshua returned, Crowned and Conquering.

The Pass-word of the first Grade of the Order is I.H.Sh.V.H.

The three mountains are Biblically, Mt. Sinai, Mt. Beth El, and Mt. Moriah, known as Golgotha.


As usual you have bamboozled me with your knowledge . You have answered a long held question concerning INRI.
Thanks.

[lucifall]

to stay on topic
some beautifull art of Ruigoord:
Pyramid + Patrones of the Village Geertruida
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7027/f83f46ff51e965bde49eb0e.jpg
I will make pictures of another Pyramid on Ruigoord my boyfriend helped to build in the beginning and which is transformed now in A Pyramid where the circle is squared.
Luci

[SweetLove14]

maybe page and queen are more important than what is noted? i see CLEAR INTENTIONAL pyramids and not mountains in the knight of wands as well. maybe they left it out just because.... or the king missing out on whatever the queen and the page and knight were doing :O. or just a plain symbol not to be noted? or the kings big ego took up the space of the card. who knows..... good question though.

[re-pete-a]

With pixies artistic talents I'm sure if she wanted mountains she would have done so. There's plenty of illustrations throughout the Majors.

Pyramids is what she wanted.

[brightcrazystar]

Yes - for the city of the pyramids, revealed to the Philosophus (Knight as Fire of element). These are alluded to as the mountains of the rosicrucian myth in the Practicus grade (Quees as Water of Element) and somewhat in the Zelator Grade (Page as Earth of Element). The King (Air of element) is Theoricus (Air of Element) and on the middle pillar.

It's all enochian and how all the aces and court cards form the tablet of union.

[lucifall]

The 3 pyramids/ triangle shaped figures shown in the alchemical Mutus Liber remind me to these three pyramids shown in the Wand Court Cards.
Waite mentions the Mutus Liber in the PKT. '

“As regards Tarot claims, it should be remembered that some considerable part of the imputed Secret Doctrine has been presented in the pictorial emblems of Alchemy, so that the imputed Book of Thoth is in no sense a solitary device of this emblematic kind. Now, Alchemy had two branches, as I have explained fully elsewhere, and the pictorial emblems which I have mentioned are common to both divisions. Its material side is represented in the strange symbolism of the Mutus Liber, printed in the great folios of Mangetus.”

He also mentions the heavenly dew, which is the subject of the 3 Pyramid/triangle cards in the Mutus Liber in his description on the Moon Card.
“The face of the mind directs a calm gaze upon the unrest below; the dew of thought falls; the message is: Peace, be still; and it may be that there shall come a calm upon the animal nature, while the abyss beneath shall cease from giving up a form.”

On the Moon Card, related to Pisces. Queen of Wands with the Pyramids behind her. She is ruling from 20 degr. Pisces to 20 degr. Aries. In the undermentioned plates of the Mutus Liber, a Ram appears.
The King cards doesn't show Pyramids, maybe because the King is already the real fire in the Middle, as an translation for Pyramidos is Fire in the Middle.

Plates of the Mutus Liber:
http://www.samaelgnosis.net/imagenes/alquimia/mutus_liber_negro/mutus_liber_04_n.htm

In the Mutus Liber, on plate IV the collection of the flos coeli (The water of the two equinoxes) works. Sheets are stretched out in order to receive the heavenly dew.
(Rosicrucian’s called themselves the “Brothers of the ripe Dew” )
The Ram and the Bull on the plate (s), are the signs of the Zodiac, under which one must collect the floscoeli. They have no connection with the astrological symbols. The Ram is Hermes Criophore, which is the same as Jupiter Ammon; and the Bull, with its crescents is attributed to Diana and Isis. These two animals personify the two natures of the Stone.

The Ninth Plate brings us back to the flos coeli. This agent has to enter a new combination. In one of the figures on this plate, we see Mercury in the process of buying a flask of this divine water from a country woman.

On Plate 12 instructions are shown how one may carry mercury to a superior gradation.
To this end one must recommence the imbititions of the flos coeli, until the Mercury, which is eager to them, is impregnated by them to saturation.

Luci

[brightcrazystar]

that seems to be here -
http://hermetic.com/caduceus/articles/1/3/mutus-liber.html

Interesting and worthy of note when I read pkt, but I am not sure what kind of physical background in Mineral Alchemy that Waite exactly had.

Furthermore, this account is from 1700's and regardless if Waite DID practice alchemy, we have no idea if when he mentioned this alchemical treatise, that he endorsed this interpretation.

Interesting speculation, neat paper - but is there any use to it you see?

[lucifall]

Interesting speculation, neat paper - but is there any use to it you see?
Maybe forum members are interested in it. The Link to the plates might be interesting. (At least it invites me to colour them)
I think everything has it's use.
Isn't every solution, the end of the road, of speculation in the beginning?
Luci

[brightcrazystar]

Maybe forum members are interested in it. The Link to the plates might be interesting. (At least it invites me to colour them)
I think everything has it's use.
Isn't every solution, the end of the road, of speculation in the beginning?
Luci

oh yes, it's all speculation, but I was just wondering if that whole "treatise" meant anything to you, or you found evidence of it maybe meaning something to Waite.

I am not saying such, but this is to be the material matter of alchemy, by Waite's words,.. and for all we know that was a jibe at someone who was trying to read into this same work and he felt it was useless, just like any mineral alchemy.

BUT - I am not saying that - I just think when I read sometihing, opr find an infuence, I look for its relevance. You shared it, which was cool, and thanks, but I dont see how this really is saying anything about the cards, at least in a glance. If you do, I would love to hear that.

[Teheuti]

The 3 pyramids/ triangle shaped figures shown in the alchemical Mutus Liber remind me to these three pyramids shown in the Wand Court Cards.
Waite mentions the Mutus Liber in the PKT. '
Luci - Where are the pyramids in the Mutus Liber? If you mean the furnaces - I think that's a pretty far jump. However, I think that dew reference definitely relates to the Moon card.

BCS - Thanks for the link to the translation of Magophon’s French commentary to the Mutus Liber.

My sense, after reading a lot of Waite, is that he was not a practicing alchemist, which is why he stresses the two sides to alchemy. I think he was primarily interested in the mystical implications.

[lucifall]

Luci - Where are the pyramids in the Mutus Liber? If you mean the furnaces - I think that's a pretty far jump. However, I think that dew reference definitely relates to the Moon card.

Thanks Mary,
Yes I mean the furnaces as Triangle/Pyramids. Because the shape. It is pretty far off indeed, have to admit that!
As an April Fool I like to jump far sometimes...

Thinking it over the last few days (A dive much further off)
Waite mentions Pyramids or mounds.
A Furnace sending energies down in the Mutus Liber.
Where those stone pyramids hiding antique "Nucleair" plants??? Another "nucleair" energy we are now familiair with, which had to be stoned as a Pyramid or a Mound, to avoid bad radiation?
1 top of 1 Pyramid is gone. There are theories that pyramids where power genarators for space ships. Did one top stripped of by an accident with such a spaceship?
Pyramids as stoned plants.. as mounds
Just as "wisemen" in this time, consider to stone the plant in Fukushima, Japan?
A far off one again... I apologize....

What strikes me from Waite again are his counting abilities.
4 streams in stead of 5 on the Ace of Cups.
14 Plates as he discribes in the Mutus Liber, in stead of 15.

Luci

[brightcrazystar]

BCS - Thanks for the link to the translation of Magophon’s French commentary to the Mutus Liber.

My sense, after reading a lot of Waite, is that he was not a practicing alchemist, which is why he stresses the two sides to alchemy. I think he was primarily interested in the mystical implications.

Mary, you are welcome.

I agree Waite was likely not a practicing Alchemist, but the story of Alchemy I accounted is one he would have been privvy to. It is the Initiation Lore of the S.R.I.A.

http://www.golden-dawn.com/eu/UserFiles/en/File/pdf/sria.pdf

[starchild]

to me the king and queen would be INSIDE the pyramid, its those who fight and live and die for the higher ranks on the outside that the card is showing. behind each good king is a whole army of energetic peaple, willing to standforward, willing to give, willing to travel willing to fight willing to give there last once of energy for the idea of there "king or queen"
i wouldnt expect to see the knight nor the page inside the sacred pyramids. but on the outside doing all the dirty work.

just me