View Full Version : Country and (general) Place Associations in Tarot and Astrology...?
I posted this issue in the "Talking Tarot" section, got answers back from Apocalipstik (Thank you! You have indeed helped. :D), and she suggested that I post here for more information, et cetera. So, here it is:
OK, here's the situation:
I stumbled upon a website (It might have been referred, but I have so many things going at once I just plain don't remember! lol) that says there are associations to the Tarot that correspond with various "land areas" (for lack of a better term...long nights are strange things...! lol). This is under, "Elemental Attributes of Various Decks" (at the Link below):
I was wondering if any of you had ever heard of this before? Notice that some of the places listed are Continents (such as Europe...), and some are much smaller land areas (such as Hungary, Egypt etc. ...). Have you ever questioned whether or not the Tarot, while reflecting our subconscious, as well as our conscious mind, could in turn, reflect our national origins through cultural associations etc.?
The basis for my last question in the above paragraph, is this:
We know (to some extent..), that nations differ in culture and basic national 'identity'. With this comes such things as caste-systems, social ideals of 'higher classes', and so forth. I should add, that (obviously..) different countries have different national issues and histories. If the tarot can reflect the things going on around us, why not the evolving, rich cultural trappings around us? Wouldn't the tarot reflect this somewhat?
If you can help me investigate this further, or perhaps point me in the direction of an individual who might be able to help, I would absolutely love it!
Thank you in advance.
Any and all feedback is (as usual) very welcome. :)
I can offer a general comment relative to Astrology and country affiliation to Sun sign attributes. Years ago my Astrology library was quite extensive. It reached a point where I need room to I threw out about 300 Astrology books, among them many resource-type books. I'm going only by memory now as far as specifics to this answer.
First, it seems some astrological authority figure or school of thought decided to center the zodiac on some point, perhaps in Alexandria, Egypt with Aries to the east. Then each country that was located in one of the twelve sectors located outward from that center point was identified as an Aries or Libra or Capricorn types of country. If "Leephd" picks up on this thread, perhaps she can provide a specific answer to this.
Secondly, various countries have one or more "national charts" identified with them. The Sun-sign of these charts are associated with the country. Some countries have a number of seemingly valid charts and dates used by astrologers. The USA, for example, has a Gemini-rising, a Sag-rising, a Scorpio-rising, a Sibley chart, a Bill-of-Rights chart, a first President taking office chart, etc. Some of these have just different times on the same day, others have differing days-years.
As for Tarot, I can't comment on cards linked to countries. Dave
This is very useful information. I am not exactly "Astrology-savvy," but I got curious and had to throw this question out there to ... well...."see what bits..?"
I'm not sure if that's a good way to describe it, but it's not meant as derogatory at all. :D
I had no idea that the US had so many charts! Interesting. Where was this center-point, I wonder...? Perhaps one could start from a central-point like the Greenwich Meridian? Or a "Astrological...hot-spot" ... If London, England Paris, France and NYC, NY are Fashion Capitals of the world, who's to say that there isn't one for Astrology, and such...? This will most definitely be a good for further research...Google is a wonderful thing! hehe
About your library: I hate to hear that a home library got "broken up," but heck! when you need more space, or you've turned yourself into a walking dictionary/encyclopedia...well....things tend to happen. :D
I had to do something very similar (not 300+ books though...eeeks!) a couple years back after hurricane Ivan hit Florida. I was lucky to be able to keep about half of my books and (thankfully!) my wardrobe. I lost everything else and had to start over. To give you a rough idea of what I retained of my books: I still have 15 mid-sized totes full to the top and I need a few more!
There's no better thing for individuals who love research, and reading than a really good home-reference library! :D
Thank you Dave, and thank you in advance to any one else that adds to the thread. :D
PS: Man! I wish I could use two or three of those smilies for the --- hehe! :D :D :D :D :D :D -- problem solved! :D
Memory suggests to me that the "center point" for the zodiac overlays was in Egypt. Someone had written a book that linked "cosmic power centers" around the globe, all related through a grid-work. Significant cities, communication and trade centers, educational centers -- all were located on this grid network. The author then showed how each city and grid area linked, in terms of zodiac attributes, to the center point. Obviously a lot of work went into this. It is my sense that this was done a hundred or more years ago.
So much has happened in terms of "progress" or greater understanding of how astrology works on personal and mundane levels that these kind of approaches seem to be out of favor. I know that I was "underwhelmed" by the theory that the author offered. Dave
This should help a-lot. I had a feeling that if it wasn't GM, that it would be in the region of Egypt or there-abouts. If nothing else, the history attached will be worth the time regardless of any possible changes since this network was first established...:D
I'll have a look around and see what I find. Thanks again. :D
From a post on G.D. astro tarot attribution (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=710866#post710866)
4) time and time again many authors (and our own logic ) tell us that court cards relate to character, human events and related episodes and energies, the Lords (and ladies) of the Major cards are celestial archons (archetypal spiritual beings and experiences). The correct attribution of court cards must be around the terrestial globe and not the heavens.
The G.D. reference to the Princesses ruling the ‘Celestial Heavens from the North Pole of the Zodiac’ and ‘…they form the thrones of the four Aces that rule in Kether.’ ...
Crowley says something totally different; (Book of Thoth p.177) “Princesses rule the heavens around the North Pole. The meridian is The Great Pyramid and the elements rule … Asia, Pacific Ocean, Americas, Europe and Africa.” Clearly we are on the Earth and the pole A.C. is referring to is the Terrestrial North Pole (TNP) and the cards are fixed over continents and so are revolving with the Earth.
Robert Wang gets closer by saying (Qabalistic Tarot, p.50 –51) that the circular Tarot/Astro correspondence diagrams in his book are a simplistic attempt that does; “refer to the Earth and its TWO magnetic poles.” (my emphasis) But he then goes on to refer one to the G.D.‘s muddled system.
There is a little (or lot of) confusion here and not everything is being revealed. Lets forget the complications of Qabalah and Tree of Life in a Sphere for a moment and look directly at the astrology of the Tarot in the Celestial Sphere.
The Celestial ‘Sphere’ doesn’t exist without reference to (and from) the Earth’s viewpoint, it and its ‘poles’ would not exist if the Earth was not rotating, so that is why the Earth must be included in the system (it is represented by the 3 elemental trumps).
The astrological Trumps obviously reside in the band of the ecliptic. The Decans obviously are within (or in front of) the zodiac band as 10 degree divisions of the Zodiac and 1/3 segments of each sign. The planets and planetary Trumps ‘wander’ in the zone between the Earth and the Zodiac, passing the forces from one to another, laterally (ie latitudinally, in the plane of the Solar System - from the celestial astrological archons, to the planets and then to earth and to the inhabitants via the courts). ....
I do however appreciate the G.D. attempts to link movement in the celestial Sphere with the Vision of Ezekiel. But that too includes the earth in the system as one has to consider 4 forces at work here. The fixed Court Cards on Earth and their divisions radiating out into space (like the astrological houses) and rotating with the Earth and the fixed Astro-trumps on the ecliptic with their divisions radiating in to Earth (like the Astro signs) but not rotating. Ie. One spoked wheel spinning one way within another spoked wheel spinning the other way – laterally or horizontally. The longitudinal Earth divisions by element and suit flowing vertically (well, near vertical – 23 ˝ degree tilted) and flowing one way and the celestial (vertical) divisions (represented by the pole to pole great circles of the Solstitial and Equinoctial Colures) flowing the other way. Ie. another two wheels whose ‘perpendicular’ energy flow is reversed. All four wheels rotating different ways inside of each other. No wonder Ezekiel was spinning! The end of Ezekiel gives instruction (from these wheels) about dividing the dominions of the Earth.
[But don’t try to find the relevant passage in Ezekiel from the G.D. reference, that is wrong too, they quote (typo probably) a chapter of Ezekiel that is numerically beyond those in the Bible.]
EXTRA EDIT : There is a lot more following on from this (not in previous post) giving specific devisions of countires to Courts (eg Iceland - princess of Cups and the Aces in areas around Antartica (eg.- Ace of Cups - from the STP through the Weddell Sea) I either cant find the post or didnt make it (thinking it was getting complex enough as it was!) but if you want a copy of the specifics I worked out for the land areas and courts I can type one up and post if you want.
Thanks for the information. :) I guess I hadn't gotten that far in a search. I had first PM-ed an individual who suggested that I post my curiosity on the topic; as stated above, it is evident how this issue has gone from there.
As I am not a life-long Tarot-Reader (only a short time), I appreciate the help. :) I'll take a look at the thread-link you have posted. I know now that this will help with the project I am in the middle of.