View Full Version : Publishing Tips
funkpuss
14-04-2002, 09:43
Hi
There's sooooo many of you that have designed your own tarot cards/ still in the middle of it, but have you thought about getting them published??
Have you??did you?
I would love to know!
Funky
well, im making a buffy deck...i think a tarot deck would fit in well with the kind of..theme of products (?)
but i dont think I'd be interested in publishing it...i'll use it for myself and other people's readings, i think if the company that do the products for buffy were interested they'd take the idea and the base design for the cards and just get someone to re do em all and screw me over. heh. cynical much? ;)
but i wouldnt trust them....and really, this is just a kind of..practice deck to make, that i can work easily on.
Morgeinne
14-04-2002, 19:06
Wow...what s/he said...word ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Really...I'm doing a Harry Potter deck, and tarot also seems to fit into a line of products for that one (they have a potions class kit for kids, tarot cards could be the divination class kit)...but this is my first deck, I'm cynical as well about being screwed over, just want to get a feel for designing cards this time, plus I don't really feel like going through all the work and red tape it'd probably take to get them published.
funkpuss
15-04-2002, 11:03
Hi
I think that there are some Harry Potter tarot cards already out......sorry.
Don't let it put you off re: big Co's stealing your idea, just make sure tou copyright everything before you send it off. But i know what you mean.
I knew someone who had a really good card game and it took him 2 years to do it and in the end he didn't bother taking it to a publishers or games Co. because he just thought that someone will just take all credit for his ideas, design and everything.
Go on give it a go!
I still havn't started my cards but I sure will take them to a publishers after all the hard work.
Good luck anyway!!
Major Tom
16-04-2002, 04:04
When I first started working seriously on Major Tom's tarot I thought about publishing.... somehow during the creation process it didn't seem so important so I decided I would not.
I suppose it's about reward for your efforts. })
I've found the transformative nature of the tarot deck creation process to be worth more to me than all the money in the world. })
Having said that - it might be fun to make a deck for publication...lol
funkpuss
16-04-2002, 09:27
Oh yeah the money helps but that's not the main reason why I want to do it.
For me it's something that i've been thinking about for years and never had the time to do it, but know I've nothing to stop me. I now it will take some time too. It's just a self rewarding thing to do + I've quite creative.
How long did it take you Major Tom and what sort of process did you go through?
Funky
catboxer
30-04-2002, 07:58
Funkpuss:
My ex-wife (a good friend and an artist) keeps encouraging me to publish my deck, but I have reservations about doing so.
For one thing, I'm very much an amateur artist, and when I look at some of the new decks like, for instance, the Vertigo, by the great professional artist Dave McKean, I feel really intimidated about putting my stuff out in front of the world and saying "look at this." On top of that, my deck is weird: 74 cards instead of 78; French suit signs (hearts, clubs, etc.) instead of the usual Italian ones.
I'm not unhappy with my cards; they express my conception of tarot perfectly. And I got what I wanted -- a serviceable deck of my own creation that I can use.
As for money, I think even for people who are really artistically good, publishing a tarot deck is probably a money-losing proposition, because there are so many out there already.
I'd like to see your cards, and I would like to be able to post mine, one at a time when relevant situations arise, here on this forum.
Dave B
(Catboxer)
funkpuss
01-05-2002, 09:49
Hi catboxer,
I know what you mean bout drawing skills, I'm a designer/clarvoyant but my drawing skills are very poor, but there are ways around it. You don't have to be good at drawing, it's just developing your own style. Don't be put off by other cards that you have seen, just make yours different.
I'm still working my ideas for my cards, which has taken long enough!! I think it will take me a few years, once I get my finger out.
Just remember you must of seen some very poor cards and wondered to yourself how ut they manage to get their work published, when you know that you could do much better. I'm not putting other artists down but, you should know what I mean and as I said I'm not at all good at drawing. May be you should find other ways of expressing your work. ie stencils, tracing, abstact art, computers, photograpy etc.
Also I would need about £10,000 to get them printed or Icould go to a publishers but I know that they would want to change a few things just down to personal choice rather than the markerting point.
Go for it!:)
Funky
funkpuss
07-05-2002, 16:36
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Funky
astrokaiju
28-05-2002, 15:54
well...if one DID want to publish a deck, how would they go about it? who would they send it to, and how?
If you did want to get a deck considered for publication you generally have to have either completed the whole deck or have examples of trumps, court and minor cards. If you have done this you can submit them for consideration [agm, llewellyn, us games systems all have submission guides on web]
When submiting ask honestly what they think.....you will know fairly quickly if they are keen.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AmounrA
[B]If you did want to get a deck considered for publication you generally have to have either completed the whole deck or have examples of trumps, court and minor cards. If you have done this you can submit them for consideration [agm, llewellyn, us games systems all have submission guides on web]
I contacted the publishers some time ago to find out more info but they only want to see a few cards as this saves you time if they don't like it or they may want you to make some changes.
I think I will go to a publishers when I've done some more work on my cards but I think it's best if it's your first time to go to a publishers than to self publish, it's another bigh thing when your on your own.
Also the publishers will take their cut but I am sure it's worth it as the publishers that you have mentioned are well known.
Seb
HudsonGray
07-07-2002, 14:14
Remember that there are smaller publishers out there too, several of them in the US & more in Germany.
Check out a book called 'Artists Market 2002' and see what they list--it's a resource for artists & has a ton of info. Any bookstore should have it or can order it--or go down to any major library & look in their reference section (that's where they keep this one).
Self publishing has it's ups & downs, and is expensive. What you can do is a search online for artists who did self publish & see if they're willing to exchange info with you via e-mail. That's information right from the horse's mouth. They'll be up on all the pitfalls too.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hush
[B]well, im making a buffy deck...i think a tarot deck would fit in well with the kind of..theme of products (?)
I've been playing around with the idea of a Buffy deck myself! I'd love to see what you've come up with -- or even just talk over ideas.
So far I've only been trying to decide on associations, and I think I'll have to wait for the release of at least another season's worth of episodes on CD for source material.
HudsonGray
19-07-2002, 01:11
I'm wondering, basing a deck on a tv show--what happens if it goes off the air? Would interest wane & the effort become moot? Very few shows go on to be like a Star Trek (that doesn't seem to ever die) or turn into solid cult type shows screened at midnight at movie theaters around the country.
(This is if you wanted to do a money making thing, of course, backed by the show's creator Josh W.)
Buffy has a cult following, even if it went off the air theyd still have quite a few fans
Me, I live in the town with digital cable and STILL no WB or UPN channels, stupid cable company
:THP
retrokat
11-08-2002, 20:51
Hi all,
My deck http://goldentarot.com is going to be published by US Games, so I guess that puts me in some sort of position to offer relevant advice about getting published.
1. Do your deck for yourself. There are SO many decks on the market, that if you make the deck with the main intention of getting it published, you'll probably end up getting very despondant.
2. Stick to the formula. 78 cards, standard suits, common symbolism etc. Any deviation from that will require justification in commercial terms.
3. Ask yourself WHY you're doing it and don't lose sight of that. eg, My goal was a genuinely Renaissance deck with modern readability.
4. Enjoy the process, as that may well be all you get out of it. Even if it gets published, the joy of creating the deck may more important - it was to me.
5. Get it out there. I happen to be a web developer, so it was relatively easy for me to put my deck online, but even posting indivdual cards in forums etc will give you valuable feedback and exposure. If you can build a deck, you should be able to build a simple webpage.
6. Be willing to take criticism. If you can't, you'll never make it in any public endeavour. There are a lot of people out there who prefer to criticise rather than do a better job themself. Take advice, consider it, then reject or accept it. Don't take it personally.
7. Don't get paranoid about people stealing your work. It happened to me in the most extreme possible way - a German publisher actually printed & sold my original online deck, and I couldn't afford to sue them. Their piracy proved that the deck had commercial potential though, so if anything it *helped* me to get a publishing deal. Their deck was from screen-res cards stolen off my site, and looked ****e compared with what the real-thing will look like when USGS publish it. People sell the cruddy german deck as "pirate Golden Tarot" on eBay and they fetch up to US$100 - I'm quite flattered! Now that I have a real deal, I'm sure it won't happen again as USGS would sue anyone who tried. As they say with marketing, any publicity is good publicity. And every cloud has a silver lining (bleagh!).
8. Build your fan base until you can demonstrate commercial potential BEFORE approaching a publisher. Publishing a deck, especially in this very competitive field, involves a big investment by the publishers. And face it, they're in business to make money. They may well LOVE your deck, but they simply can't publish it unless it's commercial as they have their investors to consider. You must demonstrate to the publisher that it will SELL, not that it has exceptional artistic or spiritual merit. If you want to get it published, it HAS to be commercial. Unless you're rich enough to self-publish, in which case lucky you, go for it!
9. Value your fans/supporters. I answer emails whenever I can, even if it's just a standard response. If it weren't for lobbying by fans, I never would have published - I was quite happy to leave it at the online deck. I feel incredibly lucky to have got a deal with a major publisher, and that deal simply wouldn't have happened without the support of my small but very loyal bunch of fans.
10. Be patient. I've just finished the high-res and much-improved version of Golden Tarot and handed it over to US Games, but it won't be in the shops for about a year. Meanwhile, I'm happy with my mock-up version (printed on a good commercial printer and laminated).
Hope that helps....
Sorry I can't give anyone personal advice on publishing etc, as I'm very busy. It's not that I don't care, I just care more about my own projects! *grin*
Don't U.S games take the original artwork as theres?
Retrokat
I think your cards are really good and I know that they will do very well! :)
How long did it take??
Seb
HudsonGray
19-08-2002, 01:00
It wouldn't make sense for US Games to start stealing art. They use copyright laws & 'buy' the rights to publish, from the author of the art. They don't steal it. They only have the rights to publish. The artist can retain the rights to sell images as rubber stamps, on mugs, on t-shirts, etc. unless he/she gave the publisher ALL rights (which would include releasing it outside the US, that's international rights). Even if they did sell all rights to the publisher, it's only for a specified time, not 'forever'. Rights come back to the artist after that specific time unless the publisher returns to renegotiate the contract.
Hello fellow Western Australian Retrokat!
Thanks for the input on publishing a deck. Yours is fantastic, I can see why US games want to publish it!
I hope to see more of you in Aeclectic.
retrokat
11-09-2002, 20:31
Firstly, thanks for your kind words re my deck, guys! *blush*
Before I published, I'd heard the rumour that USGS "keep" original works. The physical meaning of "keep" is kinda irrelevant to http://goldentarot.com as the deck was produced digitally (ie, the version on my hard drive is exactly the same as the one on theirs) - so in my case it's the copyright meaning of "keep".
In my contract with US Games, I gave them the right to choose if they register it in their or my name, but my guess is it will be theirs, since they're in it for business reasons.
I had to do a bit of soul-searching before I agreed, since as an artist I've always kept my copyright and swore I'd never hand it over. But face it, as a first-time deck creator, what kind of bargaining position was I in? They'd formally offered me a contract and I was thinking about it and also waiting to see if Llewellyn were interested in making an offer too -my hope being that I'd keep my copyright with Llewellyn. As it turned out, Llewellyn gave me a (very nice) no - kindly adding that they thought USGS was more appropriate for the deck. And then Stuart Kaplan rang me personally to ask me to sign - which just blew me away, and made me realise how incredibly lucky I was to get ANY kind of offer from USGS. I am so much in awe of Kaplan's historical tarot knowledge and couldn't believe he'd taken a personal interest in my deck. So I signed.
I don't regret it at all. They only have specific publishing rights (as someone mentioned, merchandise such as cups/t-shirts etc aren't covered). If at any stage they stop publishing for a year, the contract is terminated - so it's not "forever". And as long as they're publishing, I'll be very happy. I couldn't have asked for a publisher with wider distribution - basically anyone who's interested in tarot anywhere in the world should be able to get hold of it, and it won't be prohibitively expensive.
Perhaps if it were my paintings (see http://kattyb.com) instead of my digital collage work, I would have felt differently. There's something very physical about 'real' paintings, and although I've sold hundreds of the buggers I don't think I'd ever part with the paintings for the (unpublished) kids' books I've written. So I can understand why some tarot deck creators have a problem "handing over" their original artwork.
I decided to be realistic. If I hadn't agreed to surrender copyright, none of you would be able to buy the deck 'for real' - it would still just be screen resolution and no good for reading with.
From USGS's point of view, I can understand their commercial decision to hold copyright. For example, if the piracy thing happens again, I think they stand a much better chance of suing the offenders than I did. Also, if I held copyright - what if I changed my mind about publishing because I couldn't handle the pressure of being in the public eye? Sure, I invested a few months of my life to make the deck, but by the time it's in print, they will have invested a lot more than that. So I think it's only reasonable that they want to do whatever they can to protect their investment.
So far, I've found them to be very co-operative with usage - for example, allowing (even encouraging) me to keep running my site, even though they have the online rights to the deck.
Hope that covers all the questions?
Oh, one more - someone asked how long it took. The original deck and site took me a few months part-time while I was travelling around the world. The proper rebuild at high res (for publishing) took about 1500 hours, which is pretty close to a year of normal working hours, but I did it in 4 months. I worked 12-16 hrs/day, 7 days a week. Not because USGS insisted on such a harsh deadline, but because that's as long as I could possibly afford to avoid real, paid work. My lovely little brother supported me - he's sweet enough to think it's an important new deck, and says he's investing in the future *grin* I've kept a list and hope it at least sells well enough to pay him back one day!
Or if anyone needs a web designer, now I'm available...
This is a wonderful thread! Great tips... especially love retrokat's - way to go! :)
blue_fusion
13-09-2002, 12:42
yes. thank you for posting this thread. it's really very informative, especially regarding the processes involved in legally publishing decks. :)
I just found this section and I am so happy!
Kat, I went to your website and checked out some of your art. I love the tarot you are about to have published and I have to add that your original art is so incredibly charming I think it would make a great deck too!
There are some incredible artists posting here, Kayne, I saw your deck finally, just recently, gorgeous! The colors are so beautiful!
I just mailed off a big submission package to a publisher yesterday, so have my fingers crossed. I can't wait to hear back.
So maybe sometime soon I can report on the publishing experience.
So far I have found that the publishers either have guidelines on their websites or will give them to you if you email or call them.
That way you can find out what they are looking for.
I have also found that most published artists and authors of tarot decks are more than willing to discuss their publishing experiences and I have gained some priceless information from them.
I personally decided to wait until my deck was nearly done before I submitted it to any publisher because I wanted to retain control of the project for as long as possible, ie. I didn't want the images or content influenced by outside sources. It wouldnt be as big a deal if it only took me a few months to do, but I have invested just about 5 years on it now and have maybe another year to go. Regardless of whether I ever get published though, the process has been so worthwhile. I have learned so much. If I had it to do all over again I definitely would.
Marie (mary-el tarot)
WillieHewes
20-09-2002, 13:59
Wow, marie, they are sooo pretty!
I think you did a great job, and I hope you'll get published. Uhn, I feel so humbled now. I could never make anything like that. My own cards are just circles and squares. :( I mean, I do believe they have their own merit in their simplicity and stuff, but... :| I wish I had just a snippet of your skills...
Well, just put me on the pre-order list for your deck, ok? I am keeping my fingers crossed for you. *gapes some more at the cards* Wow.
Willie
HudsonGray
20-09-2002, 14:16
Willie don't worry what yours look like compared to anyone else's. Look at the Stick Figure Tarot--it's popular & now that it's out of print everyone STILL wants it. Talk about a simplistic image deck!
And the guy who did the Silicone Valley Tarot didn't have much drawing capability either. But his deck is doing well too.
Just work with what you have & keep confident!
Originally posted by WillieHewes
I could never make anything like that.
Nobody can ever make anything like anyone else. That's what's so cool, every single one of us has our own way of expressing what we see in the world.
That is one of the reasons I like tarot so much, I love seeing all of the individual interpretations over the same framework.
Thank God we are all different.
<heading over to look at your website>
Marie
blue_fusion
20-09-2002, 18:19
marie. your cards are beautiful. i hope you do get them published soon, as i feel they're going to start a new tarot craze. :)
retrokat
21-09-2002, 04:55
Marie,
Your deck is really beautiful. For all your "you don't need artistic skills to make a deck", I reckon your talent as an artist has been put to excellent use making your deck. Can't wait to see the rest of it, and I really hope the publishers go for it - it really deserves to be in print!
Hello Retrocat, I have just read your post concernining U.S games, and can understand where you are coming from concerning digital art and 'real' art. I myself find parting with digital images no problem, but my originals 'realworld' works never leave my side.
I can therefore completely understand how a deal with us games is an easy decision.
Marie, I think you deck is wonderful, and any publisher you choose would accept it no problem.
If you're working on a deck and you would like to get it published some day, do yourself a good turn and contact a publisher to get their guidelines for artists before you start working. (I know that U.S. Games Systems has them.) This will stop you from making art that won't work. For example, artwork that is of different sizes and proportions could be an obstacle. Artwork that is scannable is a big plus. Most publishers set their own titles, so you don't necessarily have to write in the titles yourself, but be sure to leave space for them in your design.
Tarot cards are just as much art as concept, and publishers are looking for beautiful stuff. So when you send in your proposal, give it your best shot (just as you expect your publisher to give you their best shot) and send high quality color copies (NEVER send original art). Make your copies look as beautiful and professional as possible. Don't have your proposal bound; do put your name and the title of your deck on every page in case they get separated.
If you've written a book that goes with the deck, all the better, send a sample chapter or two with your card samples. Again, make it neat and professional. And for heaven's sake--use spell check!
And last but not least, in your cover letter, don't boast exceedingly, but don't be self-disparaging. You don't have to be a famous artist or tarot person to get your deck in print. Show confidence in your "product."