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Thirteen
23-05-2007, 16:15
This has probably been asked, but...

Why is Scorpio a water sign? Scorpions are land creatures--in fact, they're most often desert creatures. Does this relate to Isis (Egyptian goddess of the Nile) who was protected by scorpions?

ravenest
26-05-2007, 12:45
I don't have an answer and I'm waiting for one too, but I often think the same thoughts.

WHY? Its not very watery is it?

Someone here... (Tink?) said once that Scorpions evolved from water . But so did a lot of other things.

I'll just put it down to another wierdness in Astrology (which is why I have my own southern local based astrology) I also use Austrailan Aboriginal star lore as well.

Chuck out the Scorpion and replace him with a sting ray. He can fly through the water and a bit through the air (over wave troughs) like the eagle, a 'higher' totemic aspect of Scorpio. He lives in the water. he has a sting on his tail. He lives down in the mud and slime but can raise himself to the heights.

problem is its a bit hard to say ; " I am a Sting-rayio."

As far as the Isis question goes ... I'll have to go and recheck the Dendra Zodiac.
[I vaguley remember something about it not being a scorpion but a water beetle]

Alectra
26-05-2007, 13:24
Wow, That is a very good point. I mean I have had the same thought but never really found an answer. I dont really know where a scorpion would fit though. To me it wouldn't really make sense as an Earth. Atleast the crab and the fishes make sense as a water sign. I lived in the desert for awhile and dealt with scorpions and see no correlation between scorpions and water. Now I am curious as well since I am a scorpio rising. : )

A~

ravenest
26-05-2007, 13:26
Sting-rayio rising you mean? ;)

tabi
26-05-2007, 13:30
Quick Wiki search brought this up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion

It seems they have have formed out of an oceanic life form. Given how many years that has past between naming the zodiac signs and now could be...I'll drag out my astrology books when I get home in the morning to see what else I can found for ya.

tabi

sweet_intuition
26-05-2007, 14:25
The water element connotes emotion and intuition. The fixed quality denotes intense concentration and magnetism. The fixed-water compound particularly to Scorpio is likened to ice or other such crystals as salt or precious or semiprecious stones. Scorpio wants to crystallize aspects of experience that remain mysterious or concealed into a solid understanding.

Many a times I have come across people wondering why Scorpio is a water sign? Considering it's ruled by two very fiery planets (Mars and Pluto), and considering it's very volatile and incredibly sexual (fiery qualities).

Well, you see Scorpio is one of the most mysterious signs of the zodiac, hell, it even rules "Mystery". However, before some of the Scorpio's here in AT begin to sharpen their stinger and aim it at me, let me just say that I love you all (majority of the men I have crushes on are Scorpios), and please don't sting me. But the reason Scorpio puts on this entire front of being uber powerful and uber sexual and all things fiery, it's only because it's a deeply emotionally insecure paranoid delinquent that's even suspiscious of it's own mother when she says to it and it's sibling, "I love you both equally".

Sure, Jealousy is fiery, and Scorpio infamous for it, as is his Martian cousin Aries. The thing is, Aries' jealousy is like old faithful (the geyser), once erupted, it blows off a lot of steam, but then, everything is back to being all hunky dory. Scorpio jealousy is emotionally stemmed again out of insecurity (and you thought Cancerians were insecure...puh-leaze). To such an extreme that if their spouses say something like, "Oh don't worry about me, I'll find ways to keep myself busy while you've gone for the conference", They actually can skip the conference and go undercover in the bushes of the house, spying through the windows, watching their spouse 24/7, only to realize that the only thing she's cheated on him with was a vibrator.. and a box of Ferrero Rocher.

And don't get me started on the moral double standards. It's like the cliche mafia situation. The Scorpio is like the powerful mafioso, who has a wife and 2 and a half kids in the suburbs, a classy exotic dancer, a waitress, and a waif like school teacher in different parts of the city, and the moment the wife even smiles innocently at the UPS guy who's legs look yum in those shorts, he puts a hit on them.

I know I've over exaggerated some parts, but it was done solely in effect to show why it's watery and not fiery in nature. To the Scorpio's reading this, please remember, I think you people are really sexy and I do love you guys! Honest! ;)

Love and Blessings

:)

StellarMyst
26-05-2007, 14:41
This has probably been asked, but...

Why is Scorpio a water sign? Scorpions are land creatures--in fact, they're most often desert creatures. Does this relate to Isis (Egyptian goddess of the Nile) who was protected by scorpions?

Hello Thirteen,

Happy to meet you finally! Love the avatar. ;)

As for your question: I think it may very well relate to Isis, but there might just be a map-type logic to it. If you look at the order of the stellar population as the Moon passes through the Zodiac, you see there a logical set-up. Libra (The Scales) is next-door to Scorpius (Scorpio, Scorpion), who's next to the constellation Sagittarius (The Archer).

With the above in mind, The elements of the Zodiac have a similar order as well.

H I) Aries Cardinal Fire
H II) Taurus Fixed Earth
H III) Gemini Mutable Air
H IV) Cancer Cardinal Water
H V) Leo Fixed Fire
H VI) Virgo Mutable Earth
H VII) Libra Cardinal Air
H VIII) Scorpio Fixed Water
H IX) Sagittarius Mutable Fire
H X) Capricorn Cardinal Earth
H XI) Aquarius Fixed Air
H XII) Pisces Mutable Water

Id est: Cardinal Element First, Fixed Element Second, Mutable Element Third; Fire First, Earth Second, Air Third, Water Fourth.

I am sorry I don't know how to turn a copied link into an underlined word thingy, but here's the link to the Wikipedia Article on the Egyptian Calendar - The history of it to be a little more precise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_calendar

The Ancient Egyptian New Year's Day fell on (approx.) July 20th of the Julian Calendar in 139 CE. Memphis, Egypt was the center of it all...You'll find lots more at this article. - Would this mean the Astrological map was centered upon Memphis, Egypt...since Egypt was the Astrological Power-Center (to borrow a term from one of our fellow ATers - not sure if it's the proper term, but I think it's close...?)?

I hope this helps just a little. :D

Yours,

StellarMyst

Thirteen
26-05-2007, 14:44
It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who has wondered about this...or who doesn't know the answer :)

It seems they have have formed out of an oceanic life form. Given how many years that has past between naming the zodiac signs and now could be...
Um...doubt it. When they say Scorpions formed out of an oceanic life form they mean formed over MILLIONS of years, not a few thousand. I'd venture to say that Scorpions were land-based, desert-based creatures by the time human beings appeared on Earth and, thus, have always been land-based/desert-based even when they were picked for a Zodiac sign.

Now, granted, most of the signs don't seem to relate to their element. Why is a Centaur a fire sign? Why is a Water Bearer, Scales or a Pair of Twins Air signs? Why would a Virgin or a Ram be an Earth sign? Capricorn sometimes is pictured with a fish tail...but it's an Earth sign. I think the reason Scorpio stands out to me, however, is because Cancer and Pisces are so evidently water signs. Also because Scorpio is said to have three forms: Serpent, Scorpion, Eagle...or pheonix. And um...none of them are water signs.

(Personally, by the way, if I was to switch Scorpio's element I'd make it a fire sign. That would go with the desert, with the sting and with the pheonix.)

Granted, the Scropion *looks* a lot like a water creature--another crustacean, and for the Zodiac, that's better than good enough given that so few signs even come close to looking like their element...still....I'm voting for the scorpion's relationship to Isis--she represents the Nile (water)--and Scorpions are her protectors...so their element is water.

Rosanne
26-05-2007, 16:02
The Zodiac signs are thought to come from Babylonia- and they were the path to the moon not Solar like they are now. I would think that the Scorpion was most likely the large bug called a Water Scorpion that lived in the river deltas. They look like the sand Scorpion- but they do not sting- they bite. They also have a hollow tube tail that they stick up out of the water to breath. The Arachnid that is the traditional Scorpion- also lives in moist places, by ponds, rivers and deltas, under rocks and in drains also- The sand scorpion is only one variety.~Rosanne

tabi
27-05-2007, 00:59
True, Thirteen, but most of them are kinda quirky to begin with. Most are based out of mythology of some type.

This is what one of my books says:



The Greek giant Orion was a legendary hunter, who was pursued by Greek Goddesses. Eos, the dawn-goddess, was especially taken with Orion and in the heat of one of their meetings, he boasted that he was such a great hunter that he could wipe out wild herds. Apollo was so infuriated by this that he sent out a giant scorpion to string Orion to death.

Parphrased to keep it short, but doesn't really seem to do anything for anyone but tell a cute little story of the God/s and their oddities.

Thirteen
27-05-2007, 08:22
Happy to meet you finally! Love the avatar.
Thank you! very happy to meet you as well!

With the above in mind, The elements of the Zodiac have a similar order as well.

H I) Aries Cardinal Fire
H II) Taurus Fixed Earth
H III) Gemini Mutable Air...etc
Heh. Occams razor is always the best answer to such questions. You're quite right. Scorpio's symbol could have been a vulture and it'd still be a fixed water sign if this pattern must be maintained.

Thanks for bringing the question down to earth!

Thirteen
27-05-2007, 08:25
The Zodiac signs are thought to come from Babylonia- and they were the path to the moon not Solar like they are now. I would think that the Scorpion was most likely the large bug called a Water Scorpion that lived in the river deltas. They look like the sand Scorpion- but they do not sting- they bite. They also have a hollow tube tail that they stick up out of the water to breath. The Arachnid that is the traditional Scorpion- also lives in moist places, by ponds, rivers and deltas, under rocks and in drains also- The sand scorpion is only one variety.
That's fascinating and I really like it! It certainly sounds more like Scorpio than the usual desert scorpion--especially the cool hollow tube tail--very Scorpio sneaky, clever and covert ;)

StellarMyst
27-05-2007, 09:40
Thank you! very happy to meet you as well!


Heh. Occams razor is always the best answer to such questions. You're quite right. Scorpio's symbol could have been a vulture and it'd still be a fixed water sign if this pattern must be maintained.

Thanks for bringing the question down to earth!

Not a problem. I'm glad I was able to help a little. ;)

Blessings,

StellarMyst

Rosanne
27-05-2007, 11:08
That's fascinating and I really like it! It certainly sounds more like Scorpio than the usual desert scorpion--especially the cool hollow tube tail--very Scorpio sneaky, clever and covert.
Well if you look at the medieval illustrated celestial Star maps you will Scorpio is at the toe of Ophiucus/Serpentarius explained here... http://users.winshop.com.au/annew/Ophiuchus.html
and the Water Scorpion was commonly called the Toe-Biter- Poor Ophiucus poisoned by a snake and bitten on the toe too! Interestingly enough this is the Sign of the Herbalist and his cures.~Rosanne

Thirteen
27-05-2007, 14:20
Poor Ophiucus poisoned by a snake and bitten on the toe too!
Actually, I just went through a whole post on Ophiucus...if we go by the actual Greek myth, he wasn't poisoned by a snake--rather, he had a snake wrapped around a staff as his symbol of being a healer. This was, in part, because he had the blood of Medusa (serpent-headed) which allowed him to heal or poison folk.

The interesting thing is that the snake about the staff symbol became mixed up with Hermes' wand--which was originally a messanger wand with two ribbons. Those ribbons were replaced by snakes, and Hermes/Mercury, who was Lord of Alchemists, became the god of healers, his wand the symbol of doctors--thanks, in part, to the mix-up with Ophiucus-the-doctor-god's staff.

Which is why the Magician in the Tarot stands for doctors if one is using a deck where the Magician is ruled by Mercury.

I also note some fascinating recursion of myths here. Like the mention of Phorbas who cleansed a Greek Isle of serpents (can we say, "St. Patrick"?), like the staff with it's serpent being related to the staff-turned-to-serpent trick that Moses pulls off, and also to the serpent in Hindu which goes up the spine, Chakra to Chakra. I note that in this constellation, the serpent is wrapped about the guy rather than about a staff, more like the Serpent wrapped about the branches of the Tree of Knowledge.

And, finally, this very much explains why Scorpio is often related to serpents--not only the relationship of poisons but the closeness of Scorpio to this constellation, so close that there's some confusion about which should be the Zodiac sign!

All really fascinating stuff! Wouldn't that have been interesting if the Ophiucus constellation had been picked over Scorpio to be the sign...In some ways, it really suits Scorpio: can poison or heal.

finaflight
28-05-2007, 07:41
HI Thirteen

I emailed the gentleman who writes the morning horoscope in the Toronto Star - Phil Booth - I find him very good for having to put a whole sign into a couple of lines. Love his creative writing.

Anyway, hope this helps.

The image accorded to the zodiac signs don’t necessarily correspond to the element they represent. For instance, Aquarius is an air sign even though the image used is the water-bearer. This often leads to the misapprehension of Aquarius being a water-sign – not so.

It’s interesting to note too, that Scorpions don’t only just live in deserts. They’re plentiful in southern France, and I even once saw a documentary showing tiny scorpions crawling on the stone sea defences of Portsmouth in southern England. Their pincers and hard carapace do make them bear a uncanny resemblance to crabs and lobsters.

Oh, and just to confuse things a little more, there is also a tradition that prefers to accord the eagle as the image for Scorpio.

Cosmoline

ravenest
28-05-2007, 11:17
I’m not sure about the suggested attribution of Isis and the Nile - after all, all the places and gods of Egypt are centred around or on the Nile.

It does seem to be a scorpion on the Dendra Zodiac. There are a few Egyptian Zodiacs extant and most are in a linear or strip form. There are linear zodiacs at Dendra as well, however the most well known and most commonly depicted one is circular (Dendra B Zodiac – the one I’m referring to). It is from a late period; Ptolemaic, heavily influenced by Greek ideas. The Zodiac also shows evidence of later additions during temple reconstructions. The Greek ideas were different, though similar and probably originally adopted from the Egyptians, to return with modifications. Also, by then, the Egyptian system had absorbed other influences. Perhaps the circular Dendra Zodiac was an attempt to show how the two systems worked together?

In this zodiac one can detect animals familiar to us and the 12 astrological ‘sign’ divisions of later astrology in an inner circle – including a scorpion. But, in the outer circle, the ‘spirits’ of the decans from an older Egypt zodiac are found and the symbolism is vastly different – there is no scorpion. It is a circular representation of the linear zodiacs appearing elsewhere and show star groups on the ecliptic (whereas in the centre and between the ‘sign’ animals are the constellations going from the celestial pole to the local horizons).

Looking at these STAR GROUPS, or decan spirits (as the Egyptians saw them), 3 of them cover the stars near that section of the sky attributed to Scorpio (and Opheichus). The first is called ‘Tepy Shentet’ (‘before the spheres’) and is shown as a crocodile headed deity with a standard of horns and Sun disc. Its deity is Asar BUT it also contains the star Antares, which is related to Selqit, the scorpion goddess.

So if there was an Egyptian origin to the Scorpio symbolism perhaps it was this?

As to why it is water. It just turns out that way from circle dynamics, divisions and the orderly progression of the elements .... doesn't it?

These symbols are not as clear as they could be. The examples in the above posts outline the fact - eg. a water pourer is air?

I get a better understanding (on this level) if Egyptian gods are substituted. In the Scorpio example it would be Anpu (Anubis). This Neter gives a wealth of information and insight in understanding the 'Scorpionic' processes.

Gemini Rising
12-06-2007, 13:10
I think this is all fascinating stuff! I had always wondered about that too, why a desert animal should be a water sign. All the legends I've read of course refer to Orion, but doesn't exactly answer the question.

And it's true that Scorpio is interpreted to have many forms, the serpent, scorpion, and eagle--even in Tarot, where the Wheel of Fortune and the World that depict the signs of the Fixed Cross have the symbol of the eagle. If I were to choose, I'd have to pick the Serpent to be a better symbol of the Scorpion. It is sly, secretive, and clever, and doesn't bite until provoked like a Scorpio's vengeance. Also, there are sea snakes that account for the water element. Also, a snake has the power to heal AND hurt like Scorpio--its bite can kill, but it's antivenom can cure the affects of its own poison...I'm not 100% sure if a Scorpion's venom is used as a cure.

LixiPixi
13-06-2007, 11:28
This has probably been asked, but...

Why is Scorpio a water sign? Scorpions are land creatures--in fact, they're most often desert creatures. Does this relate to Isis (Egyptian goddess of the Nile) who was protected by scorpions?

I, being a scorpion myself, have often wondered this very same question! The only thing I can figure is that because we're an emotional bunch of creatures we've been added to the water group for lack of better placement. (Kind'of like the last person to be chosen for a team of kickball.) For me, I've always thought Aquarius would be more likely water over the Scorpion.

All I know is I'm a Water/Scorpion living amongst 4 Air signs, 2 Leos, 1 Aries, and 1 Sag......SOMEONE SAVE ME!

LOL

LP~ <----scrolling back to read some of the previous responses now....

EDIT: OUCH!! :cool:

Carole
21-06-2007, 06:20
I wanted to quote the original question posted by Thirteen, but I didn't find the tools to do it, so here is what I have learned about the symbolism of Scorpio.


SCORPIO's symbol is known as the Scorpion, a small animal with a deadly poisonous sting in its tail. It's glyph resembles a serpent, also a lethal animal. In ancient times this sign was symbolized as an eagle, and it was considered the sign of generation, the human ability to produce new life. This high responsibility was abused by mankind bringing the noble act of producing new life to the earthy level of sex alone. Then the symbol was changed to the Scorpion, with emphasis on its sting and came to be known as the sign of sex.

In ancient civilization, Scorpio was symbolised by both the Phoenix and the snake because they implied the idea of rebirth (regeneration). The phoenix was the mythical bird which reincarnated from its own ashes. The snake was also associated with rebirth because it sheds its skin after moulting. Now the eagle and the Scorpion are used as symbols of this sign, probably alluding to the ability to soar over terrenal levels (the spiritual Scorpio), or creep in the entrails of Earth (the instinctual Scorpio), both of them characteristics attributed to natives of the sign Scorpio, as it's considered to be a sign of extremes.

Carole

firecatpickles
28-06-2007, 23:10
Scorpio is the most southern of the constellations (in the northern hemisphere). The path of the sun intercepts the plane of the earth's ecliptic in Scorpio at her their lowest point (late November/early December, currently). In ancient days this all occured due south, above water, closer to the winter solstice; hence Scorpio's association with secrecy, mystery, & sexuality.

When at his lowest point; when the sun insects the plane; Scorpio appears briefly above the southern horizon, just above the southern sea (then, presumably the Mediterranean). He spends most of his "life" below the horizon, underwater, doing gods know what. Sounds like a water sign to me :D

Hope this helps.

sharpchick
29-06-2007, 01:07
Scorpio is also the only sun sign that has three animals associated with it - representing the stages of spiritual maturity.

The scorpion is the immature self - yes, the stinger can be used for good or ill, but don't we all mostly associate it with the poisonous barbs Scorpios can fling when they fell they've been dissed? (Being a Scorp, I am very familiar with this one - sometimes that stinger lands on the self. ;) )

The eagle represents the maturing self - able to soar above the world and have a bird's eye view of the big picture - but still a predator.

The phoenix is the matured self - going down in flames over and over again and yet rising each time to glory.

At this point, I'm trying to get to and hover in the eagle stage. . .

gregory
29-06-2007, 02:00
I haven't read all of this, and I am not huge on astrology - but I am a Scorpio, have all the worst characteristics (sex mania, jealousy, spite etc })) and also an absolute PASSION for water. I can't stand to be away from it for long. I need lakes, rivers, sea. And I LOVE to swim. The only other sport I enjoy is ice skating - also a watery thing.

Really - it pains me when bodies of water are any distance away from me. I always assumed this too was part of my scorpness ?

ravenest
30-06-2007, 12:39
He spends most of his "life" below the horizon, underwater, doing gods know what. Sounds like a water sign to me :D
Hope this helps.

He hangs out down here with us southerners.

isthmus nekoi
17-07-2007, 15:37
Scorpions have been found in many fossil records, including coal deposits from the Carboniferous Period and in marine Silurian deposits. They are thought to have existed in some form since about 425–450 million years ago. They are believed to have an oceanic origin, with gills and a claw-like appendage that enabled them to hold onto rocky shores or seaweed.

The eurypterids, marine creatures which lived during the Paleozoic era, share several physical traits with scorpions and are closely related to it. Various species of Eurypterida could grow to be anywhere from 10 cm (4 in) to 3 m (9.75 ft) in length. However, they exhibit anatomical differences marking them off as a group distinct from their Carboniferous and recent descendants. Despite this, some refer to them as "sea scorpions."[8] Their legs are thought to have been short, thick, tapering and to have ended in a single strong claw; it appears that they were well-adapted for maintaining a secure hold upon rocks or seaweed against the wash of waves, like the legs of shore-crab.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion