View Full Version : study group ~ *s c o r p i o*
Alright! Time for the first sign in our study group! If you've just stepped in, please refer to this thread for more info:
SCORPIO (approx Oct 24 - Nov 22) ~
ruling planets: mars, pluto
associated house: 8th
symbol: scorpion (but also the eagle and phoenix)
glyph: an m which ends in a barb
intensity, passion, extremes, all-or-nothing, destruction, regeneration, sexuality, death, secrets, hidden, forbidden, psychology, occult, obsession, control, power, cunning, ruthlessness, perserverance, resourcefulness, magnetism, defiance, subversion, loyalty
gylph: a circle connected to a diagonal line ending in a barb
year: approx 1.88 yrs
war, ego, risk, passion, will, energy, conflict, courage, competition, aggression, heat,
glyph: there are 2 common glyphs for Pluto. The first is the circle which floats (transcends) above the semi circle which rests upon a cross. The other looks like a capital P with a horizontal line extending to the right from the base of the P.
year: 247.7 yrs
destruction, regeneration, transformation, secrecy, elimination, power, obsession, all-or-nothing, degradation, treachery, subversion, concentration (practically interchangable w/Scorpio keywords)
type: succedent water
sex, death, money/resources, occult, psychology
Hopefully this intro post provides a good jumping off point. I know Minderwiz mentioned getting more in depth about the sign quality (associated w/house type) so we'll move in that direction. After everyone feels they have a secure base of understanding, I'm going to pull in mythological, agricultural and tarot connections and get some real Scorpian in depth discussion going.
We are also in luck. Mountain Astrologer has their Scorpio issue online for free. Check it out here: http://www.mountainastrologer.com/scorpio/299titlepg.html
The Mountain Astrologer issue of "All Things Scorpio" is a MUST READ FOR ALL SCORP'S and everyone who knows a Scorp (Sun, Moon or Ascendant).
Isthmus...you did a very good job!
Wow, Isthmus, this is so freaking cool!
i am always here in astrology reading ppl's conjunction in nth degree in house with trine to something and i hear blah, blah, jibbity jabber in my head becuz i don't know anything about any of it! every time i try to learn it i always get to the same place, usually about what you covered already and then i give up! LOL
but i am determined this time! well, i was determined every time--lol--but maybe this time it will take.
as for the all or nothing aspect with scorpios, since i do have my chart done here, by someone else of course, i was not shocked to see that it is split exactly in half with all activity in only 6 of the 12 houses and the bulk of it being in the 8th house.
holy moly, i'm already talking like i've learned something!
love and blessings,
ummm could you explain a few things for this slow person please?
quality; fixed ( does this have to do with it's relationship to the equinoxes and solstices?)
birthstone; opal (hey! i'm a libra (scorpio rising) and i've always been told this is my stone because i was born in oct. what about nov. scorpios? or have i been wrong all along)
8th house type; succedent water (water i get, but what is succedent? )
Perhaps I can leap in to answer Zorya's queries or at least two of them and hazard a go at the third.
The qualities do indeed relate to the equinoxes and solstices and the cycle of nature.
These four, Spring and Autumn equinox and Summer and Winter Solstice are the Cardinal points of the zodiac. They are often therefore said to have 'Cardinal' as their quality. Basically this is seen as generating and releasing new energy, getting things going, initiating new activities, pushing for action. Cardinal signs are at the start of something (A season) and they get things moving.
The next quality is the one relevant to Scorpio - Fixed - the other three fixed signs are Taursus (Earth, Leo (Fire) and Aquarius (Air). During these signs the season reaches its most potent form. Fixed signs are associated with staying power, and consolidation, These signs are often identified as having the ability to see through what the Cardinal signs started. Autumn is started by Libra but its Scorpio that consolidates Autumn. Likewise People born with a predominance of cardinal signs may be good at getting things going but not have the staying power to see them through. Taureans, Leos, Scorpios and Aquarians have that staying power. The downside is that a preponderance of fixed signs may indicate stubborness or an inability to change in the face of the evidence - Taureans are symbolised by the Bull, a notoriously stubborn animal. Scorpions too are fixed in terms of intention - If it moves, sting it. If it doesn't move, sting it anyway coz it could be a trap.
The final quality is Mutable - We'll meet this next month with Sagittarius but basically this is when one season begins to change ready for the new season to take over. Mutable sign people are adaptable.
The other query I can answer is 'Succeedent' The Houses of a natal chart show the area of life that a planet and sign manifest in. They are numbered starting with the Ascendant and going round in an anti-clockwise manner (or if you're in the US, Counterclockwise). If you think of a compass the first House lies at due East. Now this is an angle, as is South, West and North - so the corresponding Houses, First, Fourth, Seventh and Tenth are called Angular Houses and correspond but are not identical to the Cardinal points and signs.
The House that comes after the Angular House (Second, Fifth, Eighth and Eleventh) are called Succeedent Houses. If you imagine the Sun rising in Scorpio in the East then Scorpio is on the Ascendant. If that were say 1 degree Scorpio, then that degree would move upwards and from East to West as the day progressed. Taking its place on the Ascendant, would be successively 2, 3, 4, 5........30 degrees Scorpio. These degrees succeed to the Ascendant in the old meaning of 'following'. Under the Equal House system when 1 degree Sagittarius rises we move on to the second House, which succeeds the first House - i.e. it is a Succeedent House. The Same happens at all the other angles. So at the Fourth House (Due North) 1 degree Aquarius will eventually be succeeded by 1 degree Pisces.
The moment of birth is a snapshot - so if you were born with 1 degree Scorpio rising then we look at the queue of Houses that follow it. The Second House begins at 1 degree Sag. and is a Succeedent House, The Fifth House starting at 1 degree Pisces is Succeedent, The Eighth House starting at 1 degree Gemini is Succeedent and the Eleventh, starting at 1 degree Virgo is Succeedent.
These houses are usually seen as having stored potency because they will succeed to prominance at an angle. You will notice from the example that in this case Gemini is the eighth House. Houses and Signs are not the same, unless you have 0 degrees Aries rising. However Astrologers do often refer to Aries as the natural sign of the first and therefore Scorpio as the natural sign of the eighth. There is correspondence but not identity here.
I'm not sure about the birthstone example. Perhaps someone else can help but I might hazard a guess that as Scorpio starts in October that explains the link.
OK there is a lot there so If anyone needs clarfication please ask away - its not easy stuff.
PS Happy birthday Scorpios
Minderwiz, thanks a bunch for fielding the questions. :)
To address the opal issue; I'm not sure why this is the birthstone, there was no explanation given from the source... although the metal makes sense - mars/iron.
More on succedent houses*:
These houses represent areas of life where we feel the need to control and be secure - which matches w/the fixed quality of Scorpio. 2, 5, 8, 11 are all succedent houses and they all relate to posessions/security whether it's attaining material wealth/self worth (2), outwardly mastering enjoyment/self expression (5), gaining group values/beliefs (11) or controling 8th house matters (see keywords). Being a water house, 8th represents the need to control and consolidate on an emotional level.
Since no one's really sure what to do I propose that we start moving to application unless anyone is unclear about the kind of energy associated w/Scorpio. I can write about the concrete areas covered by the 8th house and Pluto. If someone could do Mars that would be great. Also, if someone can check out the history of rulership b/w Mars/Pluto that would be helpful. While I'd love to research this through and through, I do have to go to school ^_~
When that's been covered, I'd like to explore other systems w/you guys... but I was thinking this thread may get rather unwieldly. Maybe if it gets confusing we can have a marking system in the subject field like 1) for basic issues ie: how fast does Pluto orbit? 2) for application ie: Mars rules anything to do w/cutting; surgery, soldiers etc 3) for historical issues ie: when did they find Pluto?
As for 4) we'll have to see how this pans out. I can see it easily becoming disorganized as there is plenty of opportunity to go off on interesting tangents. If need be we can create a new thread for this one, or come up w/some organized system.
*info from Stephen Arroyo's "Chart Interpretation Handbook" digested and regurgitated.
I am an earth science teacher and the opal is a special form of quartz and contains varying amounts of water. That is probably why it is scorpio's birthstone.
Scorpios are very possessive , and will hold a grudge for a long time. They can also take things a bit too seriously ( the all or nothing thing)
Stephen Arroyo is quite useful and his, Identity Security, material security, Social and intellectual Securityand Soul Security for succeedent houses is a good guide and I do use it myself.
Arroyo like Liz Greene tends to overdo the Pluto = Scorpio = Eighth equalities, for me - I think there are subtleties which perhaps get lost with too close an equation.
I Think thoug Isthmus' idea of starting with Pluto eighth and following with Mars is a good way forward as there are many astrologers who just don't accept Pluto as the ruler of Scorpio - they are a minority but a significant one - so we could tease out a fair amount by looking at that area.
So off you go on Pluto and the eighth
meatbox666> thanks for the pointer. Makes sense to me. As for the metals, pls keep this in mind b/c I'm going to return to this when we begin to look at alchemy. Mars isn't that big of a player, but when we hit Mercury and Saturn watch out! :P
Minderwiz, yes, I liked his breakdown of the houses. But I find Arroyo's book really marginalizes Pluto, Neptune and Uranus: his claim is that they are impersonal and not as important as the "older" planets when interpreting a chart so what he does write is quite cursory. At least "Chart Interpretation".
8th house deals w/ anything that falls under the realm of death, sex, resources, occult, psychology and the hidden/buried.
Pluto destroys and transforms. Keep in mind what Pluto is connected to: Judgment, Plutonium (used in Hiroshima's A-bomb), and Hades of the underworld.
So the connection w/8th leads us into areas of power/control, death/rebirth. The glyph of Pluto has the circle of spirit floating above the semi-circle of of consciousness/emotion, resting upon the cross of matter. So we also have the idea of transcendence.
$: as opposed to the 2nd house which talks about personal wealth, 8th house deals w/control so it covers insurance, wills/inheritance, resources from marriage. From my own mind (so someone check me if I'm off the mark here), I'd link this to tax, perhaps pre-nup agreements, heirlooms.
sex: porn, BDSM (talk about control ^_~), sex trade work (hey, sex *and* resources!). My own conjectures: rape, abortion, venereal disease, menstruation, more mystical approaches to sex (ie Tantra), orgies. Also, b/c sex is a marginalized topic in our society, it is also "hidden", so I think the study of sex would fall under this area as well. There are also occult links to sex, but I'm not very knowledgable in that area.
death: funerals, taxidermy, autopsies, morticians, cemetaries, suicide. My own associations: martyrdom (death/ressurection, mysticism), Halloween/Samhain (will take this up later), ghosts
psychology: This isn't often covered, so from my experience I'm thinking... Freudian/Jungian analysis, dreams, neurology. Throw in control and security and you arrive at Pavlov and the behavioural-cognitive school. Mind control experiments and all the very unethical stuff that went down during the early days of psychiatry. Psychological meds might fall under here too. Forms of paranoid schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder (literally all-or-nothing)?
hidden/buried: psychoanalysis definetely falls under this category (the first occupation I was interested in was archaeology/paleontology - little did I know I'd spend the rest of my life digging inside my head :P), but also on a more literal level, mining, detective work or any investigative work perhaps forensic work, espionage, organized crime (or is that more of a 12th house thing?)
occult: tarot! astrology! alchemy! Yeah! The 8th house *rules* ^_~
other areas I think might be applicable: mass graves, geology, war (power/control/death), demolition sites, garbage/recycling plants, sewage, intestine/bladder, churches, cults, despots, guerilla/revolutionaries, harems, Masonry, groups that deal w/resources (ie. IMF, biotech companies (patents, intellectual property etc)), chemical engineering
Mars is still up for grabs as is the co-rulership of Mars and Pluto. If you're interested in covering these topics, pls post!
And its XXXXX rated!
Thanks Isthmus, I'll try and put some slants on certain things and see what people think.
We did an eighth house thread not so long ago
However I can repeat some of the essentials. The First six Houses deal with 'Me' - who I am, My things, my brothers and sisters, my home, how I enjoy myself, my work. The second six deal with how I relate to others - Me and my partners, me and other peoples things, my beliefs and philosopies, me and society, me and my friends, how I relate to the universe.
So the reason why the eighth is other people's property is that it is the opposite house (six houses on) from the second - which is my property. Now other people's property can come to me - through marriage, through inheritance - my property can go to other people - through taxes, through me making a will. You could also see insurance and loans as fitting into the eighth on the basis that they involve other people's money. So that is the link with what seems like an odd collection of property items.
Planets in the eighth House make no major aspect to the Ascendant (at least in principle) so the eight house was considered a weak and rather unfortunate placement - like the twelfth and sixth. Certainly the link with death has been there for a very long time - since classical times (and remember they did not know of the existence of Pluto). Death murder, poisoning, poverty, fear and anguish were eighth house matters.
Modern astrologers have tweaked things a little. On a psychological level we now have shared feelings put into the eighth (and one way to share feelings is through sex). Also modern astrologers put big business in here (so for Greens who believe big business is poisoning the planet this will be an apt placement!) Also crime is put in here (I suppose because it involves my property passing to others).
The link with the Occult is most likely taken from Pluto's hidden nature (you can't see it) and the depth of intensity of Scorpio. Religion in general is a ninth house (Jupiter) type matter.
Astrology is actually associated with Uranus so it is usually assigned to the eleventh House.
I would be very careful of the links with the 'darker' side of sex - BDSM, etc. Where sex is involved with some degree of violence or domination - even if playacting I would expect Mars to be involved directly. Now the Classic links for this would be Mars/Pluto and/or Mars/Saturn. Whilst the first combination are the Scorpio rulers, I don't follow the Pluto/Mars = Eighth = Scorpio fashion so I certainly would not interpret any one with planets in the eighth as having violent sexual tendencies - which will be a big relief to some of you. Even with Mars/Pluto links I would be looking for squares and oppositions and a lot more evidence from elsewhere in the chart. Never jump to conclusions.
Well so much for the eighth - Please ask any questions that may occur to you. I will post again on Pluto specifically, so if anyone has questions about Pluto or the the Pluto/Mars rulership issue, I'll try and answer them.
Thanks for grounding my post Minderwiz! If I could add one more little thing, it would be "elimination".
- I think the poisoning link is interesting b/c then you get into chemistry and alchemy.
- Also, how short sighted of me to forget to mention the *major* link b/w Freud, psya and sex!! If ppl want me to elabourate here, just shoot.
- Yes, big business and resources; we're talking the privatization of water and energy sources, the patenting of organic substances, again, any biotech (perhaps the technology itself is more a Uranus thing, but the business side would fall under here). Also, if you're going to include control and *human* resources, then h/r and business fall under here, maybe also the exploitation of cheap labour in developing countries.
- Oh darn, no astrology in 8th!
- Right, religion is a 9th house thing, but perhaps cults might fit under 8th. (control, dominance etc)
- perhaps HIV/AIDS would fall under this category.
Finally, as to BDSM, I hope I didn't scare anyone off there. You're no more likely to be involved w/BDSM w/8th house placements then you are to say, wander around in sewage compounds, talk to spirits and join a Masonic order!
But, just to take the opportunity to clear up some misconceptions about BDSM... I find ppl shun this subculture b/c it's portrayed in mainstream media as abusive and the fetish aspects like kink and leather etc are totally sensationalized. Yes, BDSM is about power/control, and yes, it involves the administration of pain, but it is definetely *not* abusive. The welfare of the bottom is *always* of primary importance. I used to think negatively about SM and held a ton of incorrect preconceptions about the ppl involved until I actually bothered to learn about SM.
Alright! Looking fwd to your reply, Minderwiz!
Seing I've a Stellium (three planets) and a Cuspal Sun in Scorpio, I decided I'd change my Avatar for this month :)
Well, doing at little additional reading at least one astrologer puts sadism, and psychoanalysis in the eighth (Tony Louis) but then he's a psychiatrist in his spare time - but clearly the matter is debatable - I'd still want some Mars/Pluto interaction.
Intrestingly he also extends 'death' to include all industries that are death related - such as morticians, coroners, surgeons and butchers. And as the eighth is about death and rebirth - he includes good Pluto stuff like waste disposal and sanitation.
I fully agree with your latter points about BDSM - however 'control' is more a Saturnian tendency so I would expect Saturn to either be in the eighth or have some aspect to planets in the eighth if we are looking at control.
The eighth is a 'Water' or 'Soul' House (Scorpio being a Water element) so it is feelings and emotions that are important. Also Pluto and Mars are Intensity and Action - not really the restraint necessary for a 'control' freak - unless there's a Saturn aspect.
Perhaps we could begin to look at the Rulers Mars and Pluto.
The ancient Astrologers came up with a system of planets ruling Signs. The Sun ruled Leo - when Summer was at its hottest in the Northern Hemisphere. The Moon ruled Cancer - beginning on the Pagan festival of mid-Summer's day. The other, then known planets were given two signs each, one ruled by day and the other by night.
Thus Mercury ruled Gemini by day and Virgo by night and is said to be in dignity in these signs.
Venus ruled (is in dignity) Libra by day and Taurus by night
Mars ruled Aries by day and Scorpio by night.
Jupiter ruled Sagittarius by day and Pisces by night and
Saturn ruled Aquarius by day and Capricorn by night.
The planets have other essential dignities but more of that elsewhere.
Now when Uranus was discovered (1781) followed by Neptune (1846) and Pluto (1930) - Astrologers began to look at assigning sign rulerships to them. As you know Uranus was assigned Aquarius, Neptune was assigned Pisces and Pluto was assigned Scorpio.
There are still traditional astrologers who argue that it undermines the whole system of sign rulerships to have the outer planets as rulers because the day/night system no longer holds. A substantial majority of Astrologers however go along with the new rulerships on the grounds of affinity - the planetary energies fit the signs. In the case of Pluto there is still some remaining aarguments, firstly because of its relatively recent discovery - so we don't know as much about it as the rest. A small minority have argued that Pluto should have been given Aries, leaving Mars with Scorpio. All the arguments you will find for Uranus, Neptune and Pluto as rulers rests on them having a strong affinity for the signs.
At a more esoteric level it has been argued that the outer planets operate on a different level to the visible planets. Uranus rules the Plane of Matter, Neptune rules the Plane of the Mind and Pluto rules the Plane of Life. As ruler of the plane of Life - Pluto has dominion over Mars and Venus - Aries, Scorpio, Libra and Taurus. This of course is not widely accepted and I have seen alternative views that Pluto is the 'higher octave' of Mars, Neptune being the 'higher octave' of Venus and Uranus being the 'higher octave' of Mercury.
In effect Uranus was true to its nature because it provided a sudden upset to a system that had lasted for millenia and we (collectively) are still not absolutely sure about ruerships any longer.
Thanks for another informative post, Minderwiz and for clarifying some of the finer points....
Maybe I've read too much Foucault, but the instant you say: power, I say: control! But yes, control is much more a Saturn thing. (I'd still say Power still rests w/Pluto.) The Pluto book I've been reading seems to stress this control or rather abuse of control aspect so I think I'm going to have a look at other sources so my knowledge doesn't get too skewed. Plus I *do* have Saturn (along w/Jupiter and Pluto! Woo hoo!) in my 8th so maybe I'm inclined towards thinking that way.
OK, I don't have time to get into it here, but now that we're moving onto the planets, I can start w/the mythological tangent. I'll have this info on by next week.
Also, I'm sure some of you guys reading this thread have questions or additonal thoughts - feel free to post away!
:confused: wow, you guys sure are knowledgeable. i appreciate that you have obviously put a lot of time and effort into this study group.....
i'm having a problem here. i am sitting with my 'astrodient' chart in front of me...almost in tears... trying to figure out what you are talking about. i'm looking at mars in my 8th, wondering what it takes for a planet to have an 'aspect' to it? can someone please do a thread on the basics. what are these blue and red lines? and how do i know which are squares and oppositions? please speak to me simply. i have tried to go to other sites to learn, but know not where to start. there is so much out there i cannot see the trees for the forest. would someone please teach me the basics.... i really want to learn! *sniff*
zorya, thank you! I've been trying to follow this group and it's already waaayyyy over my head. There are posts I have to read 4 or 5 times to get the slightest idea what they're even about, even less understand them.
Please, please speak as if you were trying to teach a 2 year old here. That's about the level I'm at, and am truly trying to learn.
Woah! I guess I had a very different conception of 'beginner' :P OK, *thanks* for speaking up. I'll start another thread going over the basic principals of astrology; elements, houses, aspects etc etc. I wasn't planning on covering transits or aspects in depth in this group, but we can at least look at how transits/aspects work in astrology. For now, check out the "Astrology Lessons" at this page: http://www.bobmarksastrologer.com It's geared towards beginners and should give you a good start. Libraries should also have beginner books to help you out.
OK, just to make this clear, this won't be a chart interpretation study group although the knowledge you gain here should give you the basic blocks you need to build an interpretation. (After all, trying to interpret a chart w/o knowing this basics is kinda like putting the cart before the horse!)
Thanks for the posts Zorya and Cricket
Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee do ask if stuff is too highly pirtched so we can go back to Earth.
Just to help on some of your queries
Aspects are simply angles between planets. On a chart a line is drawn between the two planets linking them together. The traditional major aspects are:
Conjunction - both planets at the same degree.
Opposition - both planets 180 degrees apart - they usually hav e symbol like '0-0' or the infinity sign marked on the line in a chart.
Trine - both planets separated by 120 degrees - thre is usually a triangle symbol on the line in a chart
Square - both planets separated by 90 degrees they usually have a 'square ' symbol marked on the line
Sextile - both planets separted by 45 degrees- they usually have a symbol rather like a large * marked on the line.
Trines and Sextiles are usually taken as 'easy' aspects - energies flow easily between the planets and you can easily blend the planets energies. They are usually shown in Blue on colour charts
Opposiitions and Squares are taken as 'hard' aspects and have conflicting eneregies - you have to work to use them. They are usually shown as Red on a colour chart.
Conjunctions are either easy or hard depending on the Planets - Venus/Jupiter/Mercury/Sun/Moon are easy Mars/Saturn/Pluto/Uranus are hard.
There are four Elements
Fire - Aries, Leo, Sagittarius - these are 'action' signs rather like Wands in Tarot
Earth - Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn - there are 'Practical' signs - rather like Pentacles or Disks in Tarot
Air - Gemini, Libra, Aquarius - these are 'ideas and relationships' signs a bit like Swords in Tarot but not necessarily with the worries
Water - Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces - these are 'feelings and emotions' signs rather like Cups in Tarot.
With three signs in each group they are sometimes referred to as the Triplicities.
Can I suggest that we fill the next few posts with Zorya and Cricket asking questions - bits that they want to cover or explanations they want. If they are having probs so are others. Thinks like how do I read my chart or what do these funny symblos mean or indeed,
Please ask - We can't see your faces so we can't read when you're getting lost -
An eager to help
Way back when I posted a piece on "identifying aspects". You can read it here:
However, I would suggest FIRST learing about the 12 signs, the 10 planets and the 12 house meanings BEFORE getting caught up in aspects.
Those lines on the chart are ONLY there to confuse you even further! I would white them out...I never did like those lines and would get dizzy just looking at them...it's a stupid thing and they don't help anyone learn anything.
A suggestion for those of you who really are beginners (from a former astrology teacher): You may want to use index cards, one for each of the 12 signs, 10 planets, 12 houses...yes, that's 34 cards in total (you can then add the ASC and MC too). Write the basic information on each card, i.e., sign, it's element and modality (they're VERY IMPORTANT) the number of the sign (Scorpio is the 8th sign because the zodiac begins with Aries), the sign's planetary ruler, some keywords related to the sign, which "natural" house it rules, etc. Try not to incorporate TOO MUCH information in the beginning. In other words....keep it simple.
You'll be surprised how well this method works....then when looking at a chart and want to know what Mercury in Leo means, pull out your "Mercury" and "Leo" cards and make a sentence from the keywords. You can then add the "House" card to further explain the placement. I've had my students try this method and it works better than any book and the best part is the student seems to remember it better. Remeber, interpretation MUST come from your own brain....so IMHO, it's a good idea to start early in the process to form your own interpretation. No book will teach you how to interpret.
The elements and modalities are cruical to memorize. It will make learning aspects much easier.
Good luck in your studies!!
i haven't read this whole thread yet (grrrr...migraine today)
and even when i do, i know it won't make sense to me!
i am sooooo over my head stepping into this room,
but i love that you guys have put this thread together.
i am a taurus, with scoripo rising, and many of my friends have been scorps. and of course, there is my scorpio love interest...
so i look forward to reading all of this good stuff...thanks again for sharing your knowledge, you all! hope you don't mind my future questions!
I've posted a beginner's thread so if there are any basic questions that you want answering, then post away in that thread and we'll do our best to answer them at the right level. AG's ideas for new beginners is really good. I word document with them all in and then used 'find' whenever I had to look one up.
And if you've any Scorpio specific questions then post away in this thread.
i have the sun, mercury and saturn in the 8th house.
what kind of monster am i? LOL
actually i am learning a lot. kind of feel like i've stepped back into my high school algebra class tho.
thanks for being the teachers Isthmus and Minderwiz. is there gonna be a quiz on this? becuz as a scorp. i like the power of control i gain in knowing ahead of time! :D
love and blessings,
AG, having keyword cards is such a great idea! You know, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea for some to have an astrology notebook, just like having a tarot workbook for study.
New River> Let's try out AG's idea and see what we come up w/
Sun=ego, self expression
Merc=communication, rational thought
Saturn=limitations, control, effort
8th=resources, sex, death, occult
w/o knowing the sign these planets are in, we can say that you have a great concern to understand 8th house issues and find them to be integral aspects of your personality. Saturn may manifest in fear if you don't feel comfortable in 8th house areas, but you have a need to express yourself clearly through these areas so there is some tension there.
For another example, check out a similar question I posted awhile ago: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=5645
oops Isthmus, forgot to say all were in the sign of scorpio.
this really seems like a good way of going about it. gotta run out and get some cards! brb :*
now i really feel like i'm back in school. but then, are we ever really out of school while we are here on earth?
time to study......
love and blessings,
Just for a brief breakdown, all the planets we're going to study are named after figures in Roman mythology (which pretty much drew from Greek mythology). Take note that the deities the planets are named after have interactions w/each other in myth, just as the planets create aspects. The other thing to remember is that these myths did not develop in isolation, but rather, there was a lot of diffusion from say, the myths of Egypt, Sumer etc etc whether temporally or geographically. Some scholars believe certain themes from these ancient religions/mythologies run right into present day Christianity.
Pluto is the ruler of the Underworld and the judge of the dead. I've also read that his name sounds like Pluton meaning "giver of wealth" although the source is questionable. Still, the idea meshes well w/the 8th house. So this may explain why 8th house concerns the underground, digging, psychoanalysis.
Pluto & the cycles of nature~
Perhaps the most famous myth involving Pluto is that of the rape of Persephone/Kore. In this tale, Pluto abducts the maiden Persephone into the Underworld. In her mourning, Persephone's mother Demeter (Empress figure!), refuses to nourish the plants and animals, letting everything die (ie winter). Zeus goes to have a talk w/his brother to convince him to free Persephone so that life can grow again. Pluto concedes, but Persephone has already eaten the fruit of the underworld - the pomegranate (hints of Eve and Snow White here, strong ties to female sexuality), and therefore is bound to the Underworld and cannot fully leave. So every year, Pers must return to the Underworld where she is queen.
To oversimplify, this is basically a tale about the changing seasons of nature although it is my belief that this myth is far too complex to reduce it to such an essentialist reading. It is very interesting however to note that Pluto should rule Scorpio whose reign includes Halloween - the mid point b/w the fall equinox and winter solstice. There are 2 connections, the first of the seasonal harvest (wealth/death) and also, the popular notion that on this day, the barriers b/w the living world and the world of the dead are very permeable...
The Kore myth is also very very similar to other religions, namely the descent of Inanna/Ishtar, the myth of Osiris (which interestingly, has motifs including Dionysus/Orpheus (all of whom were hacked to pieces only to regenerate... and whose cults were also very strongly related to the cycles of nature. I highly recommend reading up on the Orphic mysteries, what little we know about them), and very loosely in Christianity w/the mourning of Mary and resurrection of Christ (falling at the spring equinox - note Christ's birth also coincides w/the winter solstice). The ties are far too complex for me to get into here as these myths are very very rich (I could also pull in a whole Cain and Abel thing here since Cain is associated w/agriculture, but then cripes this thread would never end!). If you are interested in these connections, I'd highly suggest reading:
The Myth of the Goddess: the Evolution of an Image by Anne Barring and Jules Cashford. Something to keep in mind: even w/my scant knowledge of prehistory, I find there are artifacts the authors twist to fit their theories, they tend to analyze *everything* from their own perspective. Also, they tend to idealize and oversimplify matriarchal rule (ie. patriarch=bad. matriarch=good), but overall they present a compelling thesis.
So although Pluto himself doesn't regenerate, Gods very similar to him are murdered/sacrificed and reborn. Connect all of these associations w/the Judgment card and you'll realize what a complex and powerful card this really is.
Pluto & the other gods~
Pluto is the brother to Zeus (Jove/Jupiter). You see this sibling kinship tie w/most religions. In Sumer, Innana is the queen of heaven, and her sister Erishikagal (sp!) is the queen of the underworld. Babylonian myth is almost the same deal w/different names. In Christianity, you don't have the immediate kinship relation b/w Jesus and Satan, but tie them to Abel and Cain (brothers), and again you'll find siblings ruling the above and the below. You could say then, there is a strong similarity b/w heaven and hell represented by a fraternal or sororal (sp?) connection. So the luck of Jove and the wealth of Pluto might have ties here. (see, Pluto isn't so bad!)
The interesting thing is that *Saturn* used to be the malific one, and before Pluto came onto the scene, the underworld was attributed to him; Saturn got to rule things like evil and I believe he is an older ruler of the Devil. (very rich card. Links to Pan, Satan, Dionysus... oh so many wonderful things!) Plus, Pluto has a very strong kinship tie to Saturn. Pluto, like Zeus, was the son of Chronos (Saturn) who BTW, ate his kids in order to stop them from overthrowing them, like he did Uranus. (ho ho ho, very Oedipal!) So look out for Saturn-Pluto oppositions; heavyweight son against heavyweight father!! Limitations and time (Chronos) can pull you down (Pluto), or can be condusive to rebirth (Pluto).
Pluto's other brother is Neptune (Poseidon), ruler of the sea. I don't think they talk to each other much, but they seem to have complimentary realms - the depths of water and the depths of earth. It creates a relation b/w the 8th and 12th house which both deal w/psychology.
Finally, Pluto and Mercury/Hermes have a thing going for them too. While Pluto is all about rebirth, Mercury is all about transcendence. Mercury is also the quicksilver, the messenger and the psychopompus. He is the go-between for all the gods, and connects everyone together, especially Pluto and brother Zeus. He is the spark that ignites change. I'd suggest reading up on Herm b/c he is a very complex figure that plays a very major role in alchemy.
p.s. Forgot to mention the Elusian (sp??) mysteries are also worth looking into - they focus on Demeter/Persephone myth. Sorry, let me check up on the spelling, it looks very wrong to me....
p.p.s. Also forgot to mention that Persephone/Pluto have strong ties to the myth of Orpheus. In this tale, Orpheus manages to get into the underworld by charming the triple headed guard dog Cerberus w/his lyre. He manages to persuade the P&P to allow him to bring his dead wife back to the world of the living. They agree but only if he promises not to look back as they are leaving. But of course old Orpheus looks back to make sure his wife is really there (which she was), and she is returned to the underworld.
A great brief article over at StarIQ re: Scorpio/Death, Mars/Tower and Pluto/Judgment:
Also, I would greatly appreciate it if someone would offer to look into the mythology behind the god of war, Mars, just so there's a balanced perspective on this thread.
Great material, isthmus! Thanks for looking all that up for us.
I think it's Eleusinian mysteries, sacred to Demeter. Interestingly enough, these mysteries were presided over by the hierophant. Sound familiar? ;) Just be careful what you find about them because no one really knows (besides the most basic of ideas) what went on there. Historians can only guess because no one told.
yes, that's right, Keslynn! I've read far too many sources where the authors make biased conclusions like: obviously this artifact is depicting a <whatever supports their thesis>. It's so troubling b/c you look at it and think: but that could easily be something else!
and what about seventh and eighth house meanings involved together? they can been seen as pointing out the metaphor of psychotherapy (the old, 'good' school one, Freud's and Jung's)-
the seventh : the setting, therapeutic alliance, the one to one speech,the tranfert concept, the general idea of one person receiving 'things' from another and => giving him back (eighth) transformed. I definitly (hmm..?) see the eighth house as an alchemy retort where "the other's" gifts (seventh) can be used and converted into new material of life, new sources.
might be, I have a too optimistic view of the whole thing.
I would say the "other's things" is also a part of the 8th house which governs other's resources. But to get to another's resources, there must be... another. So that's where 7th house comes in.
Yes, exactly Isthmus
The Eighth is the second from the seventh and so represents the resources, (both material and skills) of the significant other. This can range from a Dowry for a wedding to the skills a partner brings to a business.
However if we're talking about non-material 'gifts' then we need to look to another house, for example their hopes and aspirations would be the eleventh from the seventh - the radical fifth, their beliefs, philosophy and outlook on life would be the ninth from the seventh or the radical third.
I know that I am extremely late, being roughly 2 years since the last post. I have a very keen interest in astology since I can remember, but have now decided to really get into it.
I have to agree that there are some books that have a very negative outlook on the signs, I have bought one not that long ago "Zodiac: Your Everyday Astrology Guide for Life and Love" by Athena Starwoman (don't ask me when, because I can't remember - a few months). The descriptions of the different signs goes into great detail and is generally not negative.
My best friend in school was a Scorpio, I still can't figure her out. Needless to say, I have gone my way and she has gone her way, just the way things are. Another Scorpio that I knew, more of an acquaintance, who I thought was very nice and, well, to put it mildly "yummy" even though he was younger than me, and worked in the mining industry, as was mentioned above. There is a guy that I was sort of involved with not that long ago and he is a Taurus Sun and a Scorpio Moon. He sounds just like the description that you gave, very driven, started up his business which he seems to put a LOT of effort into, almost to the detriment of other aspects of his life. I know this sounds strange, no matter how hard I would like to dislike him from the "treatment" I find that I can't!
Thanks, I will looking into the other threads about the other signs with interest, especailly Virgo (my Sun), Taurus (my Moon and the above mentioned person's Sun) and Capricorn (my Ascendant). I would be interested in the others, as I know people who have the other signs, especially family!
More than you would ever want to know