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HOLMES
07-11-2002, 14:15
in the jungain tarot they says that the first seperoith is pluto,
second is uranus, third is neptune, , fourth is jupiter, five is mars, six is sun, 7 is venus, 8. is mercury, 9, is moon, and ten is saturn.

how did they come up with these associations,

wouldn't one be the sun, two be the mercury,, three be venus.. four be moon, five be mars, six be jupiter, seven saturn, 8 urnus, nine neptune 10 pluto

or even reversed, pluto one,, and all the way to sun being ten (doens't sound right i know but what the hey )

in my qablistic tarot book four is jupiter, five mars, 6 six sun, 7 venus, 8. mecruey,,9. moon and but no astrologic associatons given for number one or ten , and three is sphere of zodiac.

so it is obivious the old qabalistic astrology associated with the golden dawn (assuming here )
didn't include the new planets as they were discovered yet..

so does these new planets, urasnus, pluto , and neptune, just take over that which wasn't defined before , (convient eh ten planets affecting our earth and and ten spheres of tree of life.)

don't forget the mythological planet x, would i seen a recent article that says if it was there,, it would be 3 trillion light years away ,, halway between here and the next solar system,, and it goes around our solar system far as it is .

wouldnt' that planet x be the daath ? ( question for that far to affect the planet pluto and neptune and therefore indirectly us, woudl it be reallly huge? or just small but big gravity field )

(when applied to the tarot ,, it becomes the same planet in each number minor suit, but in my qabalistic tarot it is differnt aspects of the elemntal zodiac,,
while in the jungian tarot it is just one zodia sign for one suit i.e. cup is cancer which no one likes that i showed eheh)

so while this is indirectly related to the tarot (well for me direclty)
here we are just talking about the spheres and astrological assocations ,,

here is why i am asking ,, THE CHANGES MADE eheh


"Certainly, there are a few surprises when the Minor Cards are attributed in this way. A good example is the Five of Wands, which has been called “Strife.” But when the Five of Wands is related to Mars in Aries, it is seen to be a card of tremendous creative energy, of originality and of courage. It is a card of independence, of success, of popularity, and of outgoing force which may be rapidly expended.

As another example one may cite the Three of Swords earlier considered to be a card of pain and sorrow. But as Neptune in Libra, the positive house of Venus, it becomes a card of art, of poetry, of refinement. It is a card of love, of friendship, and of good fortune. It is the flowing Neptunian force expressed through thought (Air/Swords).

These two cards, especially, are mentioned to underscore the fact that to relate the Tarot to the mainstream of Western esoteric thought requires that we discard some deeply-ingrained notions. "" done by robert wang three paragraphs,

Keslynn
07-11-2002, 15:53
The reason that Neptune, Pluto and Uranus aren't included is because they hadn't been discovered when the Qabalah came into being (though I don't know if that's the right term for the origins). The planets are assigned a particular sphere because of its particular attributes, and there are certainly some disagreements as to the atrributions (as there are with almost every other aspect of the Qabalah). Someone might have assigned the outer 3 planets to spheres, but many others would probably reject this due to it being ahistorical. I think it would greatly depend on the author and also on your own knowledge of the planets and the spheres.

:) Kes

Minderwiz
08-11-2002, 06:44
The attribution of planetary or sign influences in Tarot or Qabala seems to be dependent on the way in which energy is interpreted. This is a subjective view One may argue that the creative energy of Mars in Aries is also likely to bring conflict with those who oppose or interfere with the creative release of energy - hence it may produce strife. I don't like such key words as they tend to discourage us from thinking about other ways in which the energy could be released. In a sense we are into the discussion about whether a card represesents its full range of meanings or whether we should consider its orientation. If we allow the full range of meanings then using a term like 'strife' is very confining.

Also we are using analogies here - the energy is 'like' Mars in Aries rather than it 'is' Mars in Aries. If you are going to use such Astrological associations then they should be ones that you feel comfortable with and work for you as analogies.

As Kes says, the outer planets are fairly recent in terms of discovery and certainly the originators of the Qabala did not know of their existence. The Golden Dawn were aware of Uranus and Neptune but not Pluto. Again trying to impose the outer planets onto a system devised for the original seven, or which used the original seven by analogy, creates problems. Only use them if you feel that they convey a meaning for you.

Regards

Minderwiz

HOLMES
08-11-2002, 07:06
aye i understand it can be interpated on the beholder of the system (eye of the beholder kind of thing) what i was wanting is
1. can the systme work ie. the ten spheres associated with ten planets,
2. and does my alternative system work better there it would make ace sun, two mecury,

true i am using anaologies :O) anaologies help me to understand numerology tarot, kabbaaha nd i hope astrology :O)

it is clear aye the all ten planets were known when the ten spheres (some say 11 spheres ) but however,, maybe they were, diviner astrologyers who scryed as well did astrology would of saw it,, and there was those who astral travel as well as astrology, and channeling i am sure,,
i think based on the system,, and the discovered planets, that the highest leader of some orders must of known and kept it hidden , :O) just my theory of conspiracy and x-file like :O)

while kes b rings a good point,, which came first, the sphere infuence,, or the astrological assocation ? in my thinking the sphere came first and astrology as was put to the system.
like astrology , numeroloyg, kabbalah,is put to the tarot .

i am just thinking that you guys have a base knowledge of tarot and an informed knowledge of astrology :O) so

could aces be sun, or pluto, or another planet
or ten be pluto or saturn given it plantary assocation ?

i need a key for i have trouble understanding astrology without some basis with the taort like i did with the kabbalah and numeroloyg :O)
(don't worry about the elementals associations of the suits with astorlogy i am sure there is thread i am just worried with the plantery assocaiton iwth the number :O) as it seems so little yet to my mind it will be so much :O)

Minderwiz
09-11-2002, 04:33
I've nothing against analogies - I use them myself quite a lot - they do aid understanding - however we need to be clear that an analogy is resmeblance and similarity but not identity.

Which analogies are best is really something I cannot answer - I think it depends a lot on your own mental and reasoning processes as to which conveys the better meaning. I would suggest you try out the alternatives and see if one works better than the others but I'm sure there is no 'right' correspondence.

I don't make any association between planets and numbers, whether of cards or in general. I think if I did I would use the Chaldean approach which orders the planets in terms of their apparant speed of movement.

This would give the order, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Sun, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. This is very much a geocentric perception but it is also the oldest recorded perception, as far as I know.

Regards

Minderwiz

augursWell
10-11-2002, 07:59
I just recently purchased a great oracle deck called The Tree of Life Oracle (Gilchrist and Zur) which is based purely on the Kabbalah. It assigns the "planets" according to their affinity to the meanings of the sephirot. To me, this is the best way to assign them as then there is a correspondence between the concepts in the Kabbalah tradition and the concepts and meanings in the Zodiac tradition. In particular, assigning Sun to Keter(the 1st sephira) doesn't work for me since Keter is meant to symbolize the highest state of spirituality possible for a human being, the closest state to experiencing God directly. In the Tree of Life Oracle no planet at all is assigned to this sephira, which I think is appropriate.

Here are the assignations used:
1 - Keter - (none)
2 - Chockmah - Uranus
3 - Binah - Saturn
4 - Chesed - Jupiter
5 - Gevurah - Mars
6 - Tiferet - Sun
7 - Netzach - Venus
8 - Hod - Mercury
9 - Yesod - Moon
10 - Malkhut - Earth

This oracle deck is very cool and makes a lot of sense, even though it is not a Tarot deck. For instance Sun with Tiferet makes a lot of sense from what I have learned about Kabbalah, and Mars with Gevurah, and the Moon with Yesod(which has a lot to do with our subconscious mind), etc. For instance, Malkhut is often translated as Kingdom and represents our senses and the interface with the "real" world. Assigning Earth to this makes sense to me.

augursWell
10-11-2002, 08:09
On the subject of whether or not certain planets had been discovered yet, I'd like to point out that the concepts of "Mars" or "Pluto" or the other planet names existed before they were assigned to planets. Mars was the god of war which came out of human myth and early cultures. I think assigning Mars to a particular object in the heavens came after the concept of Mars itself. The idea of Pluto existed before any planet might have been known to exist.

My point being that it is the ideas associated with a mythological god that are important when assigning that to something else.