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Does anyone use the I Ching?
I've become very interested in learning the I Ching in the last week or so and I wanted to know what are your favourite I Ching books or translations. I have a book by Stephen Karcher but want a more traditional translation. Also what methods do you use, coins or yarrow stalks? :)
I am going to make a BIG assumption that you are interested in books in English. I personally believe the best book for I Ching would be written in Chinese. But, since I can’t read Chinese, I have to choose from the English translations. So, with that said, here are some suggestions.
“A Guide to the I Ching” by Carol K. Anthony. This is a good book. It explains the entire hexagram and then it translates the first line and gives a commentary, second line with commentary, third line, etc. I wish the translation would have been written all together and then the analysis. Otherwise, it is a very good book.
“I Ching” by Kerson and Rosemary Huang. It gives the translation for the entire hexagram then has a commentary and finally some short suggestions for each line. What it lacks in detail, it makes up for in simplicity. I like this book for a quick reference book.
“I Ching in Ten Minutes” by R. T. Kaser. Like the other “In Ten Minutes” books, there is more here than meets the eye. If you work through the entire book, you will learn quite a bit. It isn’t a book that you can easily use as a reference.
“I Ching – Book of Changes” translated by James Legge. The author lived 1815-1897. This book is a traditional English translation but is harder to read because it was written in the 1800s. If you can find it, don’t pass it up because it is pretty much a classic.
Sometimes I use coins and sometimes I divide the yarrow sticks. A lot depends on the situation and the question I am asking. I feel that there is a power in the act of ritual that can be tapped into. I think that dividing the yarrow sticks can be so powerfully ritualistic it can help create the type of receptive mindset needed for good interpretation. If time and surrounding permit, this is the method I prefer. I have used American pennies for the coins and it works fine, but I feel the actual Chinese coins are nice to have. The Chinese coins are just so wonderful to hold. Again, it helps to connect to the energy you want to use. I have a couple of I Ching card decks and they work too but I prefer the coins or sticks. I bought some bamboo sticks (available at most any grocery store for kabobs) and cut them about six inches (15cm) long and use them as yarrow sticks. There is so much to learn about I Ching and I won't even begin to think that I have done any more than just scratch the surface. Do you have any good I Ching experiences you would like to share?
Hi Emily,
There is an I Ching discussion forum at
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/i_ching_discussion/messages/board-topics.html
Very civilized, not moderated in the strict sense, but a couple of the members keep an eye on the discussions.
You can get Book I of the Wilhelm/Baynes translation of the I Ching here
http://oaks.nvg.org/re5ra19.html
This was the translation that I started with, and it served me well. It is referred to as 'neo-Confucian', and it often criticized for that. Never bothered me, but to each their own I guess. You will learn a great deal reading it. I suggest buying the book rather than just using the web site, but it will teach you a lot.
I like the Stephen Karcher version the best, and have used it exclusively for several years now. He also collaborated with Rudolph Ritsma to prepare an exhaustive translation with concordance. I think it still has limited availablity. Rather daunting for a beginner, in fact I have only really been able to use it this past year.
The translation which receives the most kudos seems to be the Huang translation. Legge, to which raeanne refers, is generally considered to be a poor translation (sorry raeanne, that is just an opinion held in the IC community).
The probabilities of receiving the various lines are not the same using the yarrow stock method and the coins method. Using coins you have an equal probability of getting any of the three lines, whereas with yarrow stocks the probabilities vary with three 2's being the least likely. You can compensate for this.
Take two coins and throw them. If both come up as 2's, then leave one 2 down and throw the remaining two coins. If the first two come up as either two 3's or one 3, leave the three on the table and throw the other two coins for the final throw on that line. I have read a detailed mathematical discussion of this, and apparently it gives the lines in the same mathematical likelihood as if you had used yarrow stocks. I use this method now.
With the Karcher version, I think you have the best translation for a beginner. Like Tarot, there are a huge number of translations available. They are translated for feminists, for any number of religions, in silly rhyming verse, as workbooks (and the workbook by R L Wing is very good). Most are not true translations but re-visionings of other translations. The Wilhelm version tends to be the AE Waite version of the IC world. A lot of the texts take his translation and put it into their own words.
Working with IC is substantially different from working with most of the methods discussed here. Tarot is an intensely visual medium, as are the other oracle decks. IC is mostly words, and the images which are described by words, not drawn. It makes a tremendous difference in working with them. Personally, I find the Tarot an explosion of colour and imagery, 'traps for the unconcious'. IC I find more cerebral, less passionate, less emotional content in general.
Variations in the IC are variations in the words, while variations in the Tarot are variations in the images. I find that I can work with both, but it took me longer to understand the Tarot. Coming to this board, reading and interacting and following up on suggestions here made all of the difference. With the IC though it flowed for me instinctively. Panta Rei, everything changes. People learn and understand in different ways. If the IC 'traps' your unconcious thoughts, you will find it lets you see the world from yet another aspect, different from Tarot. It is entirely different cultural tradition and as such allows you to shift your mental ground in ways you may not have been able to otherwise.
Hope this helps. My advice, start with Karcher and Wilhelm, then start exploring. Good luck!
Emily,
Listen to Marion. I’m the one that is getting things confused. I knew I had another I Ching book around the house somewhere but I couldn’t find it. It is the Wilhelm book that I was thinking of when I said it was a classic. Sheeh, sometimes my mind is just “out to lunch”.
Hi raeanne and Marion :)
I've looked at the Wilhelm translation but then I did find the book called "A Guide to the I Ching' by Carol K Anthony - it's based on the Wilhelm translation but it seems very clear, even clearer I think than the Stephen Karcher book I have, so I thought I would work my way through this then perhaps get the Wilhelm version - I've seen the Legge version and wasn't too keen on that.
I also managed to get three Chinese coins lol - I haven't actually cast a hexigram yet, but I'm getting to the stage where I think I understand enough to do it (i hope) lol :)
Anyway thanks for your help and comments :)
Hi Emily,
I am not familiar with the version by Carol Anthony, but IC translations tend to be a bit like the various Tarot decks. If it calls to you, you can use it.
Enjoy!
The I Ching is wonderful, and is a great use for advice and insight on a situation for yourself. It can be a lot more straight forward than the Tarot I have found, most of the time ;) Of course sometimes just about anything can be elusive to you.
I use coins, and have NO idea how to use yarrow sicks. The coins are very simple to use. THe book I use is I Ching, A New Interpretation for Modern Times by Sam Reifler. It is the same book that by teacher uses so it was only naturual that when I wanted to learn it I got the same book :D. It's a great book, with three different over all interpretations, Artha, Kama, Moksha, three different aspects of life, and then interpretations for each line of the hexagram. I read all three of the interpretations, then move on to the lines that I should read-if there are any.
It all seemed far too complicated to me when I was given a I Ching deck first to try, and I eventually made him show me how to do it. :D It's not as hard as it sounds.
Love and Light,
cayacia
I also have 'The Visual Guide to the I Ching' which is a book and cards set but I'm finding it alot easier to learn with coins and Carol Anthony's book (I didn't like the Stephen Karcher book).
It took me over an hour to work out the first hexagram but it was well worth it - not as complicated as I thought it was going to be and very different from the tarot :)
Is there a limit to how many Hexagrams you can cast? I've been doing them everyday, with different questions, but I wondered if there was a limit - like once every few days or something?
Originally posted by Emily
but I wondered if there was a limit - like once every few days or something?
When I first discovered I Ching, I sort of went nuts and asked dozens of questions. It was fine. I don't think it ever failed to answer. After a while you sort of calm down and use it as you need it.
If you ask the same question several times, maybe coming from different angles, after a while you will get Hexagram 4: Youthful Folly. That is the hexagram which says that the pupil is annoying the teacher with pointless questioning... and, is not taking the time to truly consider the answers already given. Hexagram 4 can be an answer, but you'll know the difference in your heart.
This is in contrast with Hexagram 8: Holding Together. In this one you are counselled to keep in close touch with the I Ching. Either you need a lot of step by step guidance, or the situation is fluid, or you have not asked the right question yet.
The hazard of using it too often (after the initial burst of enthusiasm) is the same as using the Tarot too often. "Should I go to the corner store for milk now, or wait until Susie comes home?"
Relax, ask, learn.
cayacia.... I had forgotten the Sam Reifler book. Have not used it for a couple of years, but I liked it as well. Lots of re-visionings out there, like lots of tarot decks. Very few actual original re-translations, because how many ancient Chinese scholars are there? Once you are more familiar with IC, you can pick up a version in a store, read their take on a few hexagrams you are very familar with, and decide whether or not that is a good one for you.
Malachite
08-03-2002, 14:16
Just out interest....I assume the 'coins' are IC specific?...or are they normal coins?
Malachite
You can use any coins that have two different sides (different things engraved on each side). Just decide which side is a '2' and which side is a '3' and stick with it. I generally use pennies. don't know why, I just do.
I saw I Ching coins for sale at Ebay but the ones I use are three normal Chinese coins I bought for under a £1 each at my local coin seller. They feel nice to use and seem to work for me. :)
Malachite
09-03-2002, 17:37
Wow!...I'm gonna read up on this one now!
Hi Malachite,
I'm having some good readings with it - The casting of the hexagrams gets easier with practise, I can do a reading now in 10 minutes but it takes more preparation than tarot, having a pencil and pad ready to write the trigrams down and getting in the right frame of mind to ask 'The Sage' (which I think means the wisdom of the I Ching), finding the changing lines in the first hexagram then actually looking all of it up in whichever translation you choose to use. It is worth it though, some of the readings I've been getting are so useful that they really hit home. :)
Logiatrix
12-03-2002, 16:41
thank you for posting this topic, emily!
has anyone here tried the "i-ching sticks"? they are six four-sided sticks with the a single broken or unbroken line on each side. the seeker lays the sticks down horizontally, stacked one above the other, to create a hexagram. this is one method i use, and has given me very good readings.
i have also been very pleased with a set of coins that a friend recently gifted to me, more intended as a novelty. they are three shiny-gold coins that literally have "yin 2" and "yang 3" on their respective sides--like training wheels! however, they actually feel great to work with, so i've replaced my chinese coins, and now use my "trainers" all the time!
:)
have you heard of wu wei? i am a big fan of his work on the i-ching. he offers a series of references and a workbook, even a CD-ROM. his perspective is very "self-help" oriented, which i enjoy.
Hi Metaz,
Its strange you should mention the marked I Ching sticks, I was reading about them earlier in one of my books (the book that actually sparked my interest in the I Ching). I bought this particular book because it contained Tarot then I got sidetracked by the I Ching section lol. The sticks sound interesting to use but so do your I Ching coins :) I also found out that you can use dice to cast hexagrams with but I do like the coin method.
I think I have heard of wu wei - I think I noticed his work book when I was looking at the R L Wing one.
I'm awaiting my copy of the Wilhelm translation, there seems to be so many different versions on the market, I already have Carol Anthony's guide and one by Diana Ffarington Hook which are based on Wilhelm's so I decided to order it - just hope i can understand it :)
My copy of the Richard Wilhelm translation came this morning in the first post. I've been browsing through it and can understand why it was a favourite for so many years, I think it may be essential reading (for me lol) :)
Originally posted by Emily
My copy of the Richard Wilhelm translation came this morning in the first post. I've been browsing through it and can understand why it was a favourite for so many years, I think it may be essential reading (for me lol) :)
Hi Emily, I loved that book, for years I practically slept with it. I loved the words, to me they were like clear water, and voice of the I Ching was so clear. Not sure why I am using the past tense, but I guess I mostly use the Karcher version now.
The Wilhelm translation means so much to me that when a friend of mine was in Germany she visited his grave. (It is wonderful, a sphere carved in granite, sitting on a circular pad of stone with the I Ching trigrams raised on it.) She brought me a bird feather that was lying on the stone, she said it was imbued with his spirit (she is very intuitive). I still treasure the photo of the tomb and the feather is tucked into the envelope.
silvereye
14-03-2002, 03:23
Has anyone tried the I Ching reading in tarot.com?
I find it far too ambiguous.
By the way, most of us in Hong Kong read I Ching with the coins or sticks, I haven't seen someone reading with a deck. There's only one I CHing deck on the market.
Hi silvereye,
I've tried out different sites that offer free I Ching readings and they never seem to feel right - I also had consistently bad readings from these sites - now I have my own I Ching and coins I won't have online readings done again lol (plus the readings I'm doing now have all been pretty positive and encouraging).
The visual I Ching book and cards I have are ok but they seem to lose the spirit of the I Ching and they're not that easy to use or interpret - the coins are much easier :)
Originally posted by silvereye
Has anyone tried the I Ching reading in tarot.com?
Have I used tarot.com? Well, there is a short answer… no. There is also a long answer, which I am going to give you anyway, :D
To me speaking with the IC is more like hearing from another, while with the Tarot it is like tapping into the universal unconscious. I guess if I was more Jungian than I claim :) I would say I am communicating with my ‘wise old woman’, but to me it doesn’t feel like that. It feels like speaking with another spirit, not me. Let me give you an example.
The day before yesterday I had been having problems at work. I had pretty well been creating them myself, with my Aries personality, I knew that. Trying to have bigger fireworks than anyone else, and of course I was getting pushed back. So I went to consult the oracle, and I got 56, The Traveler, with lines 3,4 and 6 moving leading to 23, Splitting Apart. Now the image of 56 is fire, blazing rapidly, burning things up and moving on, over the solid, unmoving mountain. The lines I drew were not getting through to me. 3 and 4 are close to the position of power, but not in it, and that causes them to make mistakes. 6 is flat out just going too far for who you are. I was literally twisting inside, trying to see it. (I see it now, but somehow my eyes were veiled at that point) So, I did something that always works for me, but may not work for others. I often use the IC like some old timers use the Bible. I open it at random and read the lines my eyes are drawn to. Okay, sounds strange, but it is a bit like spreading out the deck quickly and randomly drawing a card for insight. The book opened at 48 The Well. Now 48 is wood below and water above and the surface image is dipping the bucket at the end of a wooden pole into the well to get water. I cannot think that most of you would not be able to see where that is going.
I find IC a stern but often wryly humourous voice. Anyway, my mind calmed and I saw myself, blazing away, while underneath me the bureaucracy was stolid and unmoving… and unmoved… by me. I saw that yes, I did have a good position, near but not at the top. And I took to heart the warnings about what behaviour that implies.
Lines 3 and 4 could be interpreted as ‘right now’, or ‘near past and right now’, while line 6 is divinatory in nature. Line 6 is the fire burning too hotly and destroying what you yourself created. The mountain (the bureaucracy) is not injured by this… it puts the fire (me) out, or lets it burn itself out. A warning. IC delivers warnings, as in… ‘if you continue on your current path’… much as the Tarot does. Know who you are. And of course… continuing on the current path leads to 23 Splitting Apart… everything is lost and you have to start over. 23 means losing your base, your foundations, generally going too high without being wide enough to support it. While it is true than often a seed falls to the ground and re-grows, you have to take into account how old you are and whether you have time or strength to start from scratch.
So, there is the long answer. I need a more personal connection so I don’t use computer programs for IC. But, what the heck, we are all different and if it works for you, I have no cause to complain!!
And, I know this is painfully long, but I do have one more comment for Emily. The reason the Wilhelm translation is a touchstone for most other works (except the Karcher/Ritsma translation) is that he spent decades living in China. He was a true Sinologue and immersed himself in the culture, without losing his identity as a Westerner. This is a more difficult achievement than it sounds. In this way, studying for years under a Chinese master scholar, he was able to translate the essence of a culture which has a long and very different history than that of the West. His great achievement was to bring this work to the West in a way that Western minds could absorb it. He was brilliant and deeply spiritual. He also translated other Chinese spiritual works, of which one I treasure is the Secret of the Golden Flower, a text for meditation. Since I do not seem to be able to meditate, I guess it didn’t ‘work’ for me, but I love its imagery anyway.
Sorry to be so long-winded. :)
silvereye
15-03-2002, 11:05
Does anyone here own an I Ching Tarot deck?
Cause I was just reading the newspapers today and found an article talking about I Ching Tarot deck created by a man from Hong Kong. I tried searching through the net but couldn't find any reviews on the internet.
Hi Silvereye,
I think they may be an I Ching deck featured in the decks section here but I can't remember the full name or if it's just called 'I Ching' :)
Hi Marion,
I am getting on better with the Wilhelm translation, its tough reading but seems to be fairly clearish lol, in fact I've not been using the Carol Anthony book for the last few hexigrams I've cast because the interpretations between the two books were so very different for the same hexigram and it's Wilhelm's I Ching that seems to be calling me.
I like Clarity's site, especially the message board, but I wish there was an I Ching site as popular as this one but if there is I haven't found it yet (yet :) )
truthsayer
17-03-2002, 13:49
recently i bought the "bamboo oracle" by chao-hsiu chen. it's based on the i ching hexagrams. when i tried i ching a while back using the traditional methods, i was too impatient to spend the time to get the hexagrams. i couldn't relate to the "book of changes". i liked the more instant gratification i got thru the imagery and symbolism of the tarot. however, i must say i like the bamboo oracle. it uses cards with colorful pictures and bamboo divining sticks for extra insight. it doesn't take long to get the hexagrams. this involves choosing 6 cards i'm drawn to and then drawing the hexagram in order of the cards drawn. the book is short, sweet and to the point. i find that i don't feel too impatient w/ this one. the readings are good. i may even dig up my old ching books to get deeper interpretations than the book that comes w/ the cards and sticks. i really can't remember the names of what i have but one is pretty thick and the other is called a modern translation.
Hi truthsayer,
Your bamboo oracle sounds interesting, I've never heard of this one before.
I agree that you need to get a translation of the I Ching that you can relate to - one of the books I had was by Steven Karcher, a library book, and I wasn't able to relate to it at all, I was glad that I hadn't bought it. In fact the only one that does seem to make sense to me is the Wilhelm one.
It also makes the choice of translations harder because they are not readily available in bookshops where I live so I can't browse and get to look through any. Waterstones is the biggest bookshop I can get to and they only had 3 I Ching related books in, two translations and a guide lol - (and I bought one of them) :)
I wonder why I Ching isn't as popular as the tarot? Or is it just in the West that its not popular? Is it popular in the East? (Think I've had one coffee too many lol :D )
Logiatrix
21-03-2002, 18:23
there are a few i-ching cards that i have seen, and i also checked out the "i-ching tarot", which i was not pleased with. i found the art to be okay, but the cards (which did not seem especially
related to tarot) labled on the bottom border with a page number from the book. i do not like cards that require me to be dependent on the book--just my own personal "druther".
there is also the "visual i-ching", which has very pretty artwork. a friend of mine has a set called "the i-ching cards", which is also illustrated. i have seen at a book store a deck also called "i-ching cards", without a book, but including coins.
I haven't worked too much with IC but I saw these IC coins at the new age store up the street so its a little inspiration to try again! I think she has the sticks there too.
Speaking of Carol K. Anthony... she has a wonderful little book called "Love, An Inner Conenction ". Its about using IC to enhance and gain understanding in relationships. It helped me when I used IC to read the trigrams in a different context.
~ january
I've started to use 'The Everyday I Ching' by Sara Dening. I've seen good recommendations for this book so I bought it - it is very clear, again based on Wilhelms translation so its not unfamiliar - soon I'll have as many I Ching books as tarot lol.
Also its amazing what you can pick up sometimes, I went to the coast over the Easter Bank holiday and found an amazing little shop, right in a touristy area, selling tarot decks, crystals, Native American, I Ching and many books. I came out laided with crystals and 3 new I Ching coins lol :) Then luckily I ran out of money but I did get what I wanted lol
Hi Emily... I have that one too, and like it as well. Always read the front part of IC books too, sometimes the authors have some good insights to pass along.
Any interesting readings you have been making with IC? Any connections elsewhere, like to tarot or crystals? Love to hear of your progress. I might be able to help in some small way if you get stuck. And maybe you could help me. Study alone is heavy and pedantic, study with others is light hearted and refreshing to the spirit. Email me if you want to.
mmem@hfx.eastlink.ca
Hi Marion
Sarah Denings book is a good one, I've been using it for my daily reading (just general 'is there anything I should be aware of' questions lol ) All in all the readings I'm getting are pretty good, sometimes they are not very clear or they don't mean much to me at the time but a couple of days later something happens and I refer back to my I Ching journal and I realise that the hexagram I cast for that day is relevant.
Also about the books, I'm having to go on other peoples recommendations because I don't have access to many I Ching book choices, even in a big bookshop like Waterstones I Ching doesn't seem very popular, so I go by online recommendations or by what others seem to be using. Also I try to keep to Wilhelm translations or commentaries.
My crystals were a mixed bunch, rock crystal (my favourite), strawberry quartz, blue lace agate, tigers eye, rose quartz and a breccicated (sp) red stone that has gone completely from my mind lol - brown/red with black (like a marble) mixed in lol :)
Edited to say - I think it may have been a carnelian, got to go back to one of the crystal websites and check :)
grailmaiden
05-04-2002, 17:06
I came across a very simple way to do I Ching in a book on various divination methods by Cassandra Eason (sorry, I've forgotten the title).
She says get 12 pebbles: paint 6 with yang lines on one side and changing yin lines on the reverse; paint the other 6 with yin lines and changing yang lines on the reverse. Then all you have to do is randomly select 6 pebbles for your reading. If you have any changing lines in the reading turn them over to form the second hexagram.
This is what I use now and find it very quick, simple and effective. I do have some I Ching cards too but I've lost the box so am not sure what they're called. There are 8 trigram cards as well as the 64 hexagrams. I only tend to use the trigram cards - picking one each morning to give me a flavour of the day ahead.
My favourite author on I Ching is Steven Karcher.
Grail
Hi grailmaiden,
I haven't heard of the pebble method of casting hexagrams, beads and marbles yes, but I might try that one, Although at the moment I'm using my brand-spanking new I Ching coins lol :)
I've read a couple of Cassandra Eason's tarot books ' Tarot speaks to the woman within' (I think its called that - not sure) and another just basic tarot book - both good books. I also noticed her I Ching book - again focused on women but I wouldn't buy it without being able to look through it first. :)
grailmaiden
06-04-2002, 08:02
Hi Emily
Yes, I have one of Cassandra Eason's Tarot books. Also, I have her rune book - Runes Speak to the Woman Within. If you are into runes I thoroughly recommend it.
Grail