View Full Version : The Devil, in a relationship spread
I was wondering what The Devil (upright) would mean in the position of "expected outcome" in a relationship spread. does it mean free from being clamped down or what? thanks.
Hi Finn
In a relationship spread, the devil often speaks of a hot and passionate affair, but, more importantly, speaks of a relationship based on all the wrong reasons. A real dead end street. Tied to the wrong people through material or physical desires. But the devil is a personal one of your own making, not an external character.
allibee
Hi finn!
I'd have to agree with what allibee said. Though I would add that The Devil, to me, also carries the idea of addiction. In this sort of reading, without knowing what the other cards were, I think of the person who is in a codependent relationship. In other words, if this is a relatively new relationship, this card may be indicating that it may be headed towards codependency - with all of the accompanying unpleasantness that brings.
Personally... I don't think this is a card which bodes well for the relationship.
Finn: I agree with Aillibee & Trogon. It feels like a dependency-type forecast, but likely has the earmarks of same already.
Talisman
16-11-2002, 08:23
'Lo finn,
Look, it would be absurd for me to disagree with what allibee, Trogon, and, above all, MeeWah have told you ('specially 'cause I don't), but . . .
You say this is the "outcome" card in a relationship spread. I simply don't believe you can read a single card in a spread -- repeat, in a spread -- and say what it means.
Otherwise, you see, you lay out the cards in any spread, and nail down the "meaning" of each one, but they are like islands in a vast ocean that have no means of communicating with each other.
If one could understand the story, and determine its meaning, by simply looking at a single card, then why bother using a spread at all? It's as if I told you the final score was 7 to 6. Yes, but, who was playing? What were they playing? What? What?
So, in a spread, in isolation, the Devil card, means -- nothing. Nothing at all.
Some things it COULD mean: It could mean lust, gluttony, excess, yes, addiction, something holding one back, a signal that attitudes must be changed. It could mean unhealthy greed. It could mean a dark obsession that undermines the body or spirit. It could mean a signal to look at desires that have been repressed or one is afraid of. (Yeah, like sex, which can be both feared and desired.) It could be a lesson, the old ying/yang thing, that light and dark must co-exist.
If I tell you all it is raining in my living room, what could it mean? Could mean there's a hole in the roof. Could mean a tornado blew the roof off. Could mean the pipes in the apartment above me burst. Could mean I'm delusional. Could mean I'm a storyteller, a liar. Could mean . . .
finn, I suggest you go way, way down in the forums to the one called "Your Readings" and post the entire spread, along with such information as you deem important. There are people there who enjoy reading for others, and some, I suspect, are very, very good. Then you'll find out what the Devil means.
Talisman
That would have been a lot easier said as: its difficult to consider the whole meaning of the devil in that position without seeing the other cards in the spread lol :D
I did a relationship spread on my friend John, who I've known for over 20 years and will be my travelling companion. I got the Devil card among others, but for me what it signified was this:
I'm reminded that John and I are both recovering alcoholics----he with over 20 years sobriety and I with over 18 years----and at one time, my relationship with him while we were both still drinking was very much a co-dependency relationship, with me feeling chained as if I could never get away. We now have a much more independent type of friendship between us that's not based on sex or any of the sick psychological stuff we were linked by before because we've both progressed so much out of those things. The Devil card in the spread I did was like a reminder to me that we've both suffered from addiction but that the connection we still have need not go there as long as we remain in recovery. I didn't find it to be a derogatory or ominous card at all. Rather, just one of the truths about our continuing friendship over the years.
I'm really, really pleased about you and your partners continued recovery, and that is the advice of the card too, the element of free will and the ability to break free and become independant from your personal demons.
Some other notes from my Tarot Journal on the Devil are: Struggle for freedom from destructive patterns. Allowing control by someone/something. Breaking free from any influences that enslave self esteem.
They are many ways to look at this, and all the cards in fact, just depending on the question, the spread and the throw really.
allibee
Thank you for the expression of support about our recovery, allibee. You may know that it's a rough road for those of us who have addictions but seek to recover. I'm very thankful that both John and I have come so far, because statistics are against people like us.
The Devil card in the Ancestral Path deck shows a woman in abject misery on her knees behind a man she's chained to, and of the Devil cards, this one expresses very well the misery I suffered for years in a succession of abusive relationships till I got counselling. I really identified with that card when I saw it.
emily2otters
16-11-2002, 16:56
another possible interpretation of the devil: lies. he is, after all, the prince of lies.
In addition to all the very insightful ideas already posted, I would add: Kinky sex. Drugs. S&M. It up to you to interpret that as "bad" or "very, very, good." ;)
Everyone has given some very good interpretations of this card so far. I just wanted to add a question: is this a reading about you and the same guy you posted the other reading about in the "My Readings" forum? (I hope that sentence made sense ;)) If so, then I'll just point out that this is another bad sign in a chain of them. Run away from this guy and don't look back! If it's not, then I'll just take my 2 cents back now.
:) Kes
Teal: glad to know you're heading off to a bright future.
Everyone else: THANK YOU SO MUCH. I know what the Devil means through the "Book of Reversals" and Little white book I got from my Medieval Scapini, but I can never really grasp what each card means. I'm getting better, though! keeping a journal too!!!
Yes I agree with Talisman who says that I should look to other cards.....they're all negative. :D
Well...I wasn't interested in this guy anyway....lol.
Red Emma
16-11-2002, 22:13
While all the foregoing ideas are spot on and useful, I'd like to add one more meaning, one which I'm more afraid of finding in a friend or partner than anything else: A strongly controlling person who uses manipulation and psychologically destructive means to wreak his havoc. Some are probably right at home with physical abuse also. Not the kind of person anyone would want to live with. Or even hang out with.
Red Emma
red emma - you're absolutely correct on that very point.
my ex was very manipulative AFTER the breakup, phoning me to tell me the relaionship breakup was my fault, that it was me who could not be "what he saw in me when he first knew me"...
well......i'm still kind of blaming myself, 'coz I know I'm not exactly blameless, but he maintains that he is guiltless...absolutely.....
hmmmm, my middle son is just like that....WILL NOT take personal responsibility for any of the trouble he causes in the house with his siblings. Even when we all point it out to him, it just makes him more aggressive ...... anger management, methinks..... but I know he wont go :(
allibee
you could see it like that but it goes deeper. Their dad left when he was only three and altho he didn't take it too badly - so it seemed - he has always tried to be the man of the house. Then it became ' my way or the highway' with him, and now he's a 6' tall 14 year old, he tends to put his weight behind his convictions. He has a really short fuse. Immature, maybe, but that would lend credance to the hope he will grow out of it.
He is a demon, but one I love very, very much.
allibee
I like your quote about the one way street!
hehehehe , its one of my most used, lol ;)
Red Emma
17-11-2002, 14:15
Allibee, I hesitated before writing the following. As a bit of a background, I had a pretty destructive father and have been in therapy a whole lot in my life.
One of my biggest problems was being immature. I learned that when a child has more emotional pressure than they can handle, their emotional growth stops. They continue to grow physically, but emotionally they get stuck at the age they encountered the heavy pressure. In my case, I was stuck at being 12 years old. I was lucky to find a therapist who could take me back to the "stuck" point, set me loose then help me to emotionally mature. I'll be forever grateful to her.
I hope your son finds his way.
Goddess Bless,
Red Emma
Hi All -
I agree with most of your views on The Devil and the only thing I can add is that The Devil can represent obsession and posessiveness. In relationships, for example, a boy/girlfriend who stalks you and wants to know where you are at all times.... as if they chained themselves to you. Much like my relationship with my (thankfully) ex-husband. He'd call everyone we know if I went grocery shopping for more than an hour. He'd insist that I look absolutely perfect when we'd visit his parents. He'd listen on the other line to my phone conversations. Yup, that's a "Devil" situation to me... and it took the Tower to get me out! (seriously!!)
In other spreads, The Devil can indicate being so obsessed with a goal that other areas of your life suffer for it. It is, afterall, the card for Capricorns.... we who tend to climb up and up, single-mindedly until we reach our apex ;). The downside of course is that your personal life and health may suffer. Its sort of like losing the balance you had in Temperance and then you allowed your life to give way to one all-consuming venture.
After reading this thread as well as the one on The Tower, I'm realizing how life is so cyclical and that the Majors correspond beatifully with that pattern.
Thank you Red Emma, that's helpful to know.
I'm glad you didn't hesitate too much.
Thanks again
allibee
divinerguy
17-11-2002, 21:02
Get out a Rider-Waite deck and look at the Devil card. Then compare it to the Lovers card.
Look at the similarities and differences. If there is any analogue in Tarot, its these two cards. Simply put, the Devil is the antithesis of the Lovers.
If you drew the Devil in this context, I'd think that the expected outcome is not at all positive. However, life has a way of proving you wrong when you least expect it.
Bottom line -- I wouldn't sit by the phone, waiting for it to ring.
Devil's challenge mode on.
I can't help wondering If the other cards in the spread had been positive...
If the reader had not agreed that it looked bad...
What positive aspects could ya'll find? Many say that all cards can be positive and negative. The only hint at positive I saw was kinky sex if you like that sort of thing.
paradoxx
27-11-2002, 15:14
In the Shapeshifter tarot the 13th major arcania is Choice, in teh Celtic Dragon Taort it is Chains. These variations of the devil card are used to signify teh concious decisions that we must overcome and let our subconcious decide what is best. if we are subdued by seduction or fear, then we have already lost, ina relationship spreat it is a signifier to make a choice (subconcious or not) and go with it, indecision is also a choice but not always the best.
AliceinDeathland
28-12-2005, 02:51
I did a relationship problem sloving spread for me and this guy that I like and I got the Devil card for: This is how you can resolve any differences and how you can improve the relationship and take it to the next level. Can anyone tell me what it means cuz doesnt the Devil card upright mean like obsession and lust and what not cuz if that is the case then how would that help to resolve and improve the relationship.
Crystelle
28-12-2005, 06:54
Be careful, there is a fair amount of health in being slightly "obsessed" with someone you are with; perhaps it is warning against the blocking of all physical desires, that can be detrimental too! As an improvement card I would say that it errr hints perhaps that one of you is not being quite as... passionate? as the other needs. Not prying and you don't have to respond but that's what I think.
Al Si'ra
28-12-2005, 07:14
Umm could it also point to "obsession"..I mean maybe the card is advising or warning you to not to get too obsessed with the relationship..to give some freedom both to yourself and to the other party..
And if you are or the relationship is already independent in nature;maybe it's advising you to strengthen the bonds-secure it a bit more..and as the card suggestes it can be through some practical action-which is substantial-material..
And It maybe advises you to "dare"..and not restrict yourself..
Just some ideas..
Good Luck :)
Fudugazi
28-12-2005, 10:37
Hehe - I would say it means you need to lose your taboos and get down to the biz with this guy. Be physical and forget about over-analysing the relationship. Sometimes we get so wrapped up in our minds, obsessing how this person sees us, how to improve this or that, what to say, what not to say, blah blah blah, that we forget about good old-fashioned lust, which in most healthy relationships is an important part of love. The obsession you might be stuck with could simply be - thinking too much!
Crystelle
28-12-2005, 13:08
thanks Helvetica! I wasn't sure how to put it but you had my thoughts exactly!
Red Emma
28-12-2005, 18:07
Sorry, both Crystelle and Helvetica, but I must seriously disagree with you.
There is no more dangerous card in Tarot than The Devil, no more dangerous lover/friend, than anyone Tarot characterizes as the Devil.
Passionate, maybe. Passionate about controlling their kith and kin to the extent of physical and emotional abuse whenever they feel their control slipping.
They're even more dangerous to the children of their lovers, both because these children receive the same physical-emotional abuse as their mothers, but also because they learn that this abuse is a legitimate way of dealing with wives, mothers, children. It, for the children, becomes a normal way of life.
Do not walk to the nearest exit. Run for your life!!!!!
I was curious, and I don't think you said, but was this a reading done for you or one you did for yourself? Relationship self-readings are tricky for me - I always wonder if the cards are speaking to what I really asked (as in unconsciously) or what I thought I asked. Are my fears or anxieties tainting anything, or am I projecting my wishes on the reading? I don't know if anybody agrees with me, but the cards can be tricky and downright playful at times. Really interesting thread, by the way. :)
~B~
tieduptinkerbell
28-12-2005, 19:26
I was wondering what The Devil (upright) would mean in the position of "expected outcome" in a relationship spread. does it mean free from being clamped down or what? thanks.
It could mean a decision...
In the Tarot de Paris, it is called Energy...and of course the Devil card always reduces to the VI, The lovers card. But this does not mean its about a person or sex or evil.
It means that the relationship is going to have a lot of high energy, and if one is not careful they may make a choice or do something they may later regret. NOT always the whole relationship or a person...
It could be that they jump in too soon. It could mean that the other person has a devil on their shoulder that could need to be dealt with. It might mean there will be temptation to run away from it cause the energy is so intense. The Lovers card is not always about physical love...in fact it is often about Karmic or cosmic love. It is about testing and discovering the depth of our love or our relationships.
A lot of it depends on the cards around it. Alot of it depends on the person it is describing.
The DeVinci Enigma calls it pleasure and pain...maybe He will bring out the hidden "freak" in you...giggles..."baby get your freak on" Maybe he will show you how to keep the energy in your relationship...
Many Devil cards have the symbol of the sign it falls under...Capricorn ...it might have a goat or horns on it...it is representitive of Pan who is the God of excess...Maybe He will be a whirlwind love affair and spoil you rotten...then you will have to come back to reality...
Maybe you are being held in fear or guilt of letting go and going forward and it again will be a decision to make...
SOOOO MANY THINGS
My best suggestion...lay another card...get some clarification...sometimes the answer...the outcome is not as simple as one card...sometimes it takes a couple to really understand the full meal deal
love
B
tieduptinkerbell
28-12-2005, 19:31
someone said earlier he is the father of lies...
well he was also created to be a musical instrument...and that was not stripped from him when he fell.
So...it could be that He will be a creative genious and make a million dollars with his ability to predict the market and sell his c.d. at just the right time.
as i said before soooooooo many things
B
AliceinDeathland
28-12-2005, 23:11
Thanks everyone
Fudugazi
29-12-2005, 04:14
Sorry, both Crystelle and Helvetica, but I must seriously disagree with you.
There is no more dangerous card in Tarot than The Devil, no more dangerous lover/friend, than anyone Tarot characterizes as the Devil.Excuse me, Red Emma, but that is exactly the kind of scare-mongering that had us all in thrall to Christian manipulators for all these past centuries. No-one is saying the Devil is not dangerous. But run for your life?? He is also master of the material and the physical, without which humans simply don't exist, far less reproduce.
Now, if you remember the question asked by Alice - it was: "resolve any differences and how you can improve the relationship and take it to the next level". That implies that the card drawn will be helpful, and that we should look at the positive aspect of it. Well, one positive aspect of the Devil is - more body, less mind. The Devil is also the principle that broke down the taboos that held us in chains for all these centuries, that allowed women of the 60s to become sexually liberated so that my generation and the one after me need not worry about being fallen women for following our natural sexual urges.
Never forgetting that the Devil is dangerous and that we can become addicted to his highs, and therefore we need to tap his freedom & autonomy-loving side.
And even if we take the Devil card only in his uni-dimensional "bongdage" meaning, why assume it's the fellow in a reading who is the Devil? That's a form of gut reaction man-hating. It can just as easily be the bondage created by our own minds by worry and control.
Ambience
30-12-2005, 10:31
I feel in a relationship it could be to do with dependance on the other person. Don't know why, does anyone else feel this. Also get feel it could symbolize violence in the relationship. This is a standard meaning anyway, but the dependancy thing. Does anyone else think this?
Thanks,
Love & Light , Janey x
Al Si'ra
30-12-2005, 11:11
Poor Devil card..It got so many negative responses..
I have both negative and positive experiences with this card...As all the cards include positive and negative within i just can't accept that this card is only negative..BUT i had a terrible terribble day a few days ago which was represented by the Devil-everything went teribbly wrong...and a very physical-intense-out of control relationship which went nowhere in the end..But i also got this card for a wonderful 3.5 yr relationship in the past..we were dependent to eachother YET it also meant strong bonds...very strong bonds which can sometimes be very good for the relationships..the relationship was like "unbreakable"..And it was good..depends on what you are looking for in a relationship..
I like intense-physical-high energy relationships so when i see this card i can't help but feel "good"..cards do have thousand meanings and can represent themselves in the least way you expect them..
Today i did a new year relationship mini reading and got the devil..along with 10 of pents and 9 of pents...It's all related to material-security-enjoying physical things as you can all see... and i am excited about it.. :D
But i am not missing the fact that devil also could mean choices..as it can be reduced to lovers..
Red Emma
30-12-2005, 14:36
Okay, I see what you're all getting at. There are more facets to this kind of energy than I have here-to-fore understood.
Having seen so many extremely destructive control freaks in my own life and in the lives of other women, I want nothing to do with anything tinged with that kind of energy. It is exceedingly dangerous. On that statement, I stand pat. And would run run for my life if I'm ever again confronted with such.
But, Helvetica, I don't understand the man-hating phrase. I do hate men, and women, with this twist to their personality. They harm all they touch.
Why, from that statement, do you infer that I hate all men?
I wonder if it could be another trigger phrase, similar to politically correct? When these phrases are used, the person they're used against immediately backs out of the arguement. It's unpopular to be seen as being either a man-hater or a person who's politically correct. Actually there are times when, in
specific instances, both are the best path to follow.
Moongold
30-12-2005, 15:13
I did a relationship problem sloving spread for me and this guy that I like and I got the Devil card for: This is how you can resolve any differences and how you can improve the relationship and take it to the next level. Can anyone tell me what it means cuz doesnt the Devil card upright mean like obsession and lust and what not cuz if that is the case then how would that help to resolve and improve the relationship.
Alice, I think it is quite difficult to comment without seeing the other cards and the spread. We are only seeing one part of the story :). The card could be lighthearted or deadly, depending on the context and the question.
Why not post the entire reading in "Your Readings"?
Moongold
Crystelle
30-12-2005, 15:33
Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring once again... Red Emma, I think that not only is the card significant, a strong card no less because of its major arcana status and poignant symbolism, but in this reading Helvetica makes a very strong point that resonates with my own interpretation -- the position of the card in the spread. If the situation were different, I might be inclined to look at the card from another angle, even the angle at which you approached it. it is only my understanding of the position and its purpose that steers me towards the other side of the argument.
i think that Helvetica might merely be commenting on the fact that there are two people in this relationship and that to ultimately paint the other partner (be they male or not) as the Devil in this instance is actually playing something of a "blame game" perhaps it is the reader/poster who is suffering from this affliction that you describe.... afterall the position confers a more inclusive commentary on the "relationship" not one person...
MTC Crystelle
PS by no means do I mean to say that the reader is anything of the sort, just trying to flesh out some discrepancies I was noting while watching the post
Lilacsky
30-12-2005, 15:51
I just wanted to add that to me the devil represents an abusive relationship, where both parties are not in accored, and most likely the situation is hard to get out of, feeling restricted and barred by our own fears, we stay and simply do not move in any direction, we stay stagnate, to me the devil also is a symbol of natural instincts and following them, sometimes the devil is good because it captures our youth, and our animal instincts, which is of course natural attraction..so the devil can go both ways.
Moongold
30-12-2005, 15:57
Well, I'll throw my hat in the ring once again... Red Emma, I think that not only is the card significant, a strong card no less because of its major arcana status and poignant symbolism, but in this reading Helvetica makes a very strong point that resonates with my own interpretation -- the position of the card in the spread. If the situation were different, I might be inclined to look at the card from another angle, even the angle at which you approached it. it is only my understanding of the position and its purpose that steers me towards the other side of the argument.
I think it is fascinating to discuss all possible aspects of XV Devil, but what do they mean out of context with the entire reading? Even knowledge that the card is the outcome position may not necessarily be enough.
For instance the Hebrew letter corresponding with the card is Ayin meaning eye . This can mean the Third Eye - perceiving the truth. The Devil, in whatever culture or religion we have knows the truth. The Devil card for Alice could mean that she understands the truth in her relationship, whatever that might be.
Perhaps Alice might get more useful feedback if she was able to post the entire reading, with spread, place meanings and other cards.
But then XV Devil is also about choice and Alice may not wish to do that :). And we may not have had this wonderful discussion about the meaning of XV Devil. Just one observation. It is interesting to observe how political, cultural and religious backgrounds impact on interpretations. Whilst that to some extent is inevitable, I would hope that the Tarot would open other windows, jolt us gently into other perspectives as well.
Moongold
tieduptinkerbell
30-12-2005, 18:00
Okay, I see what you're all getting at. There are more facets to this kind of energy than I have here-to-fore understood.
Having seen so many extremely destructive control freaks in my own life and in the lives of other women, I want nothing to do with anything tinged with that kind of energy. It is exceedingly dangerous. On that statement, I stand pat. And would run run for my life if I'm ever again confronted with such.
But, Helvetica, I don't understand the man-hating phrase. I do hate men, and women, with this twist to their personality. They harm all they touch.
Why, from that statement, do you infer that I hate all men?
I wonder if it could be another trigger phrase, similar to politically correct? When these phrases are used, the person they're used against immediately backs out of the arguement. It's unpopular to be seen as being either a man-hater or a person who's politically correct. Actually there are times when, in
specific instances, both are the best path to follow.
I will get crucified for this i am sure...but...just for a moment...think about that person... the hated man or women. the abuser. the terrible energy.
what happened to them to make them so angry...
anger comes from a lack of control...who took their power away. who hurt them?
What kind of mental state would you or i have to be in to do that to someone?
When a person can be evil would it not be correct to say that somewhere somehow something got to them so badly that they decided to tap into their evil side.? One would have to be so brutally hurt that they decided to let all perspective go...unless they had a problem with perspective to begin with...then all the hurt would just prove to aggrivate it to a point of violence.
I know mental disorders exist. I have one. Bi-polar. I also have had to deal with anger issues. I know how black i get when i am cornered and hurting. i know i get destructive. Mostly self destructive. I take medications so i don't have to go to that place. The power and the energy are very intoxicating in a sick black way and it is hard to move away from it when i have been there. It has not happened in about 8 months for me...that black place...but i have been there.
I have thrown things at people and caused stitches and said things that i wish a thousand times a day i never said. I have hit people and kicked and screamed and broken things and unravelled till i am a pile of tears and sweat on the floor. it takes days to get it together...meds and soothing words and reassurance that i am loved.
My disorder is diagnosed. MANY MANY MANY people have personality/mental disorders that are not.
Bi polar is somewhat chemical...its also caused by PTS. Post Tramatic Stress Syndrome. It has progressively become worse as I have aged and difficult things have happened to me. With each difficult period in my life i have noticed a remarkable change in my levels, and have had to adjust meds and counselling acordingly.
I have bi-polar 2 which is mild compared to BP1 or Boarderline Personality Disorder or Schizophrenia. I only have to take 3 pills a day...two if i am doing well.
I was sexually abused as a child and then raped as a teenager. I had to leave home very young and i had never lived in one place more than a year till i was 29. I have had two car accidents...totals and a bad back accident which resulted in surgery and a perminant disability that has me dealing with chronic pain to such a degree that on bad days I am known as perkiset pattii. My injuries and mental disorder have prevented me from having children and has been has difficult for relationships. I am in my second marriage...I could go on...
BUT. I am not saying this to be out there. In fact I have written a few times...telling people of my life...then taken it off the board because i am embarassed.
This thread made me stop and think.
How hurt are these evil people. Is anyone inherantly evil or is it something that happens to people cause of mental disorders and abuse. I have been loved all my life in some capasity or another. What about some of these people who have never understood what unconditional love is...How bad would it have to be to push me there. REALLY F'ING BAD. I have had it bad. I know I have. Many people on this forum have had it bad. And they probably can attest to having their strength of character tested beyond what they could endure at times. But we are all ok...most of us. HOW BAD would someone have had it to become this way. THink about it for a moment.
Yes. I agree. Some should be locked away for life. Some have done horrible things. Some have done things we can't immagine ever doing.
How bad would it have had to be for generations for some of these families with ofspring coming into the world so angry and horrible.
BAD.
this takes hate out of the game. out of the equation. All that is left is pity and sadness for a world that lets it get that bad for some people.
Some can take it. Some have fragile minds. Some have had years of being raised by someone who had it worse than them....
teary here.
Hate is a strong word...
Jesus abolished Capitol punishment in the new testiment because of this very reason. That is what he was talking about with turn the other cheek. If you look in the greek and aramaic...and in history books like josephus...There are so many accounts of very sick minded individuals. He saw past the horrors they committed and saw sick hurting people. Thats what made Jesus ...if nothing else a respected prophet. He saw past getting even and making them pay...
Most people who hurt someone else...have paid...they are trying to feel better...its sick but its true.
I just want you all to know that i get the devil energy in my readings about myself all the time. I believe its the bipolar...that and the Queen of Pent.Rx Its not really me...its something that I have to live with... I am aware. I have been made aware. I am still trying to be aware.
I also have a very keen mind...high IQ and boarderline genius when it comes to music....lol...takes a bow and does not mind bragging. I am proud of the fact that my bipolar enhances how i see things and hear things. it makes me a better person in some ways....
and in some ways it makes me sick...
Most people with mental disorders are very smart...thats worse. it would be easier to be simple. You would be surprised how many geniuses are also diagnosed with a mental disorder...lol.
NOW all this said...this does not mean one should be around violent people or the like. There are ways of getting away...avoiding...getting help. I am not saying to stay in a situation where you are in danger mentally or physically...what I am saying is to be aware.
And being aware and knowing how to deal is a totally different thing than just hating people.
I am no saint. I want to bust this guy i heard about in another forum stealing from his ex. I want to get cams...get the cops in there. But do i hate him. NO.
steps off my soapbox
Food for thot.
Bell
Red Emma
31-12-2005, 08:35
Dear Bell,
Two things here. First of all, I applaud your honesty and your courage. As someone who constantly grapples with the question, 'should I, or not, talk about my psychological infirmities here?, Lately the answer's been 'not.' I used to, hoping that my experiences could help someone else. But the reaction to such posts have encouraged me to not do it any more.
Secondly, There aren't many people who see behind human behaviour to the emotions which trigger it. It's great to meet another person who has this understanding and insight.
Well, I guess there were three things. Actually I do hate control freaks. Especially the men I've known, and now know, who, sick themselves, take their frustrations out on others, thus adding many more people to the long line of mental illness which runs in some families.
Okay, so there were four. I'm in PTS therapy for childhood abuse. One of the hard lessons I've learned is to never (NEVER, EVER, EVER) deny my emotions, no matter how unacceptable they are to society-at-large. Repressed emotions lead directly to a particularly pernicious form of depression. (Unfortunately, I know first hand of four kinds of the disease. Your post made me realize that there must be five. Or maybe, at least five.)
And about the control freaks. I do understand them, and wonder about the childhood abuse which made them the way they are. However, they need to be recognized and somehow neutralized to prevent the kinds of behaviour which resulted in people like you and me being mentally ill.
Effective therapy would be the most desirable neutralization. Many, especially men I've known, fight it tooth and nail. I suspect their attitude springs from --- well, enough of this. This discussion has come a long way from consideration of a tarot card. But if the ideas herein are helpful to even one person, I believe it's been all worthwhile.
Or maybe not, if the moderator decides these last few posts deserve a thread of their own.
Blessings, Bell. You deserve all we can heap on you.
Moongold
31-12-2005, 08:56
I agree with Red Emma about your courage, Bell.
You make yourself a little vulnerable by speaking so openly but there are many here also who understand and will support you as much as they can. You seem pretty resilient to me already, actually. Ah, I have had my own challenges in the distant and the recent past, and one does recover, especially with the spirit you have shown. You will recover, too :).
The Devil, to me, has always been some aspect of my own human nature, so I don't quite see him in the same way as some others here. In my scheme of things, we have to come to terms with the "dark" aspects of self. The Devil, for me is about seeing the truth of our humanity and choosing the spiritual path, none-the-less. We all have different views, and that is perfectly fine. I know the Devil, and quite like him. He is only as fearsome as we allow him to be :).
I understand something of childhood abuse and also domestic violence, having worked in both those areas a little. I can understand the possible interpretations of Devil in relation to that, but I don't share them on a personal level.
Many blessings to both you and Red Emma :).
tieduptinkerbell
31-12-2005, 09:54
I agree with Red Emma about your courage, Bell.
You make yourself a little vulnerable by speaking so openly but there are many here also who understand and will support you as much as they can. You seem pretty resilient to me already, actually. Ah, I have had my own challenges in the distant and the recent past, and one does recover, especially with the spirit you have shown. You will recover, too :).
The Devil, to me, has always been some aspect of my own human nature, so I don't quite see him in the same way as some others here. In my scheme of things, we have to come to terms with the "dark" aspects of self. The Devil, for me is about seeing the truth of our humanity and choosing the spiritual path, none-the-less. We all have different views, and that is perfectly fine. I know the Devil, and quite like him. He is only as fearsome as we allow him to be :).
I understand something of childhood abuse and also domestic violence, having worked in both those areas a little. I can understand the possible interpretations of Devil in relation to that, but I don't share them on a personal level.
Many blessings to both you and Red Emma :).
At the end of the day...i don't really care who thinks what about me. This was not to draw attention to my infirmities...it was to draw attention to the problem with comeing at the Tarot with hard and fast rules regarding each card. Tarot is personal. Divining is Personal. Our workings are personal. How we read is personal. Each of us will see something different in a card. Part of the reason we are all here learning is so that we can see something different too...not just our own personal things. Its called expanding and moving beyond our perception to allowing the collective perception to help guide us to a deeper learning.
Even now I struggle with leaving this information up on the thread. But at the end of the day...as I said...I don't really care what people think of me here...or anywhere i guess. Those that know me love me...those that don't think i am weird...but it doesn't matter...lol...I am who I am. All my experiences give me deeper insight to things like the Devil card.
I am not so apt to jump to conclusions as I used to. I remember getting the death card so many times in a specific relationship...when ever i used to lay them out... After a while it began to bother me. All the things I knew about that card where only the things I KNEW about that card... But I was not seeing everything. I actually wrote 13 here and asked some things...asked some others here. I got a little perspective and started to really do some research...
At the end of it I realized the death card was HIS card...the number of His name...and Death represented by Scorpio...well He is a scorpio. So. There it was. It was not about death after all...but about HIm.
This happened like 6 months ago. I have been reading for ages. Why did I not see that? Its because we have human ailments that cause us to see things differently depending on the situation. Sometimes we are too close to a situation...so it comes out differently....
Anyway...I guess what I would like to do is bring this back round to the Devil card in a spread. The whole reason for saying what I did was to give some perspective about how cards can be different for each person. I want to show here that sometimes a card can mean something totally different than we think. We need to trust our intuition...our understanding and our "sight" but we also are here on this forum to learn...If One person gains some insight to the Devil card then it was worth it. Someday someone will have to do a layout for someone and get the Devil card in a spot they were not expecting it. If what I wrote will help them understand the situation or client better...to better guide them and give them some in depth insight...then telling was worth it.
I want to warn about being so cut and dried with anything. There are NO right ways to divine. ANYONE that tells you that they have it all together is full of it. Anyone who says they know everything about this or about that without realizing that EVERYONE is given part of the puzzle is fooling themselves. The day we stop learning we die.
We are all here to learn..not just at AT...in this universe ...we are all here to learn. Some of us are given more so that we can help others. Its a gift...a privilage. We have to remember to know our gifts well so that when we do help others we are not leading them astray because we have biased beliefs about this or that.
Bottom line is...yes the Devil card can represent many things...
lol...and then again...all this could be for naught...and that Devil might just be a poop disturber...a real Devil...lol
Thanks everyone for the encouragement...but really...lol...I am good...lol...or am I...I do after all, have the Devil in me!
Love Bell
p.s. I am doing awesome at the moment..! so no one worry ok.
tieduptinkerbell
31-12-2005, 10:10
But just a final note about this abuse issue.
The reason its so embarassing is because people react...or don't.
I am not sure but i think its because some of us are still so ignorant of there being a problem at all. I don't mean that in a derogitory(sp?) way. I mean we have not been edumacated. People don't say anything cause they are afraid of getting ridiculed or being treated like they have a disease.
I turned 40 this year. I went through the hardest things i have ever gone through this last year. And i survived. That is JoYOUS and WONDERFUL! How blessed I am to have found you all...to have found myself...
I want to encourare ALLLLLL the other survivors of this year. We are only responsible for today...remember that. You can get through today. Today you have someone here that cares and hears your pain and hurt. Today you have an advocate. Today you can know that there is hope and we do recover. Today you can look back at your year and know you are a better person for everything you have been through. Today you can read this and know that you are loved and have a friend.
Don't be afraid of being a survivor...shout it from the rooftops...know how incredible it is ...deep in your heart. KNow that there are more people hiding out there cause they are soooo afraid. This is the season of love and peace and understanding and forgiveness. Forgive yourself and others for not understanding you. ANd then move forward. Live and love today. Find something good about today...even if all it is is a ray of sun through dark clouds...FInd anything about today and hold on...Tomorrow is comming. And we are given enough strength for each day.
If anyone would like someone to talk to I am here and welcome the pm's
I don't want to hide anymore. I did not do anything wrong. I was a victim and i was given something to carry. Stop feeling guilt...and start healing. Find ways. Make this year the year you move beyond this. I am here cheering you on!
Love Bell
xxx
Crystelle
03-01-2006, 14:47
Amen Bell
Amen
Free Flight
04-01-2006, 19:49
I will get crucified for this i am sure...but...just for a moment...think about that person... the hated man or women. the abuser. the terrible energy.
what happened to them to make them so angry...
anger comes from a lack of control...who took their power away. who hurt them?
What kind of mental state would you or i have to be in to do that to someone?
When a person can be evil would it not be correct to say that somewhere somehow something got to them so badly that they decided to tap into their evil side.? One would have to be so brutally hurt that they decided to let all perspective go...unless they had a problem with perspective to begin with...then all the hurt would just prove to aggrivate it to a point of violence.
I know mental disorders exist. I have one. Bi-polar. I also have had to deal with anger issues. I know how black i get when i am cornered and hurting. i know i get destructive. Mostly self destructive. I take medications so i don't have to go to that place. The power and the energy are very intoxicating in a sick black way and it is hard to move away from it when i have been there. It has not happened in about 8 months for me...that black place...but i have been there.
I have thrown things at people and caused stitches and said things that i wish a thousand times a day i never said. I have hit people and kicked and screamed and broken things and unravelled till i am a pile of tears and sweat on the floor. it takes days to get it together...meds and soothing words and reassurance that i am loved.
My disorder is diagnosed. MANY MANY MANY people have personality/mental disorders that are not.
Bi polar is somewhat chemical...its also caused by PTS. Post Tramatic Stress Syndrome. It has progressively become worse as I have aged and difficult things have happened to me. With each difficult period in my life i have noticed a remarkable change in my levels, and have had to adjust meds and counselling acordingly.
I have bi-polar 2 which is mild compared to BP1 or Boarderline Personality Disorder or Schizophrenia. I only have to take 3 pills a day...two if i am doing well.
I was sexually abused as a child and then raped as a teenager. I had to leave home very young and i had never lived in one place more than a year till i was 29. I have had two car accidents...totals and a bad back accident which resulted in surgery and a perminant disability that has me dealing with chronic pain to such a degree that on bad days I am known as perkiset pattii. My injuries and mental disorder have prevented me from having children and has been has difficult for relationships. I am in my second marriage...I could go on...
BUT. I am not saying this to be out there. In fact I have written a few times...telling people of my life...then taken it off the board because i am embarassed.
This thread made me stop and think.
How hurt are these evil people. Is anyone inherantly evil or is it something that happens to people cause of mental disorders and abuse. I have been loved all my life in some capasity or another. What about some of these people who have never understood what unconditional love is...How bad would it have to be to push me there. REALLY F'ING BAD. I have had it bad. I know I have. Many people on this forum have had it bad. And they probably can attest to having their strength of character tested beyond what they could endure at times. But we are all ok...most of us. HOW BAD would someone have had it to become this way. THink about it for a moment.
Yes. I agree. Some should be locked away for life. Some have done horrible things. Some have done things we can't immagine ever doing.
How bad would it have had to be for generations for some of these families with ofspring coming into the world so angry and horrible.
BAD.
this takes hate out of the game. out of the equation. All that is left is pity and sadness for a world that lets it get that bad for some people.
Some can take it. Some have fragile minds. Some have had years of being raised by someone who had it worse than them....
teary here.
Hate is a strong word...
Jesus abolished Capitol punishment in the new testiment because of this very reason. That is what he was talking about with turn the other cheek. If you look in the greek and aramaic...and in history books like josephus...There are so many accounts of very sick minded individuals. He saw past the horrors they committed and saw sick hurting people. Thats what made Jesus ...if nothing else a respected prophet. He saw past getting even and making them pay...
Most people who hurt someone else...have paid...they are trying to feel better...its sick but its true.
I just want you all to know that i get the devil energy in my readings about myself all the time. I believe its the bipolar...that and the Queen of Pent.Rx Its not really me...its something that I have to live with... I am aware. I have been made aware. I am still trying to be aware.
I also have a very keen mind...high IQ and boarderline genius when it comes to music....lol...takes a bow and does not mind bragging. I am proud of the fact that my bipolar enhances how i see things and hear things. it makes me a better person in some ways....
and in some ways it makes me sick...
Most people with mental disorders are very smart...thats worse. it would be easier to be simple. You would be surprised how many geniuses are also diagnosed with a mental disorder...lol.
NOW all this said...this does not mean one should be around violent people or the like. There are ways of getting away...avoiding...getting help. I am not saying to stay in a situation where you are in danger mentally or physically...what I am saying is to be aware.
And being aware and knowing how to deal is a totally different thing than just hating people.
I am no saint. I want to bust this guy i heard about in another forum stealing from his ex. I want to get cams...get the cops in there. But do i hate him. NO.
steps off my soapbox
Food for thot.
Bell
Bell
your honesty and forthright attitude to life brought a tear to my eye
Bless you and keep on the path you are on. :) :)
x Ainsley
Free Flight
04-01-2006, 19:55
I have been thinking about this thread a lot lately and trying to expand my knowledge of the devil card. What about all those cliches associated with the word devil.
I am not going to try and analyse them just put down as many or few I can. Think they can be interepreted into spreads featuring the devil using associated cards
Devil is in the details
Better the devil you know
We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell
The devil never grants long leases
If you make money your god, it will plague you like the devil
Man can hardly even recognize the devil of his own creation.
An idle brain is the devil's workshop
Tell the truth and shame the devil
Al Si'ra
05-01-2006, 00:22
If came up as an advise card..I'd say "Dare to look deeper; face your demons-put the past behind"...