Tower = Wrath?

Rosanne

01-03-2008, 15:39

Does anyone know if there has ever been an argument for the Vice Wrath depicted as the Tower/Maison Dieu?
also The Lovers card depicting the Vice Infidelity/Faithlessness?
Many Thanks
~Rosanne

le pendu

01-03-2008, 17:04

Hi Rosanne,

Those in particular.. not that I know of.

Take a look at this thread (my very first AT post, so many moons ago). http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=23005

I'd personally put Injustice (with the crumbling tower) with The Tower, and Wrath with the Devil.

Rosanne

01-03-2008, 18:07

Rosanne

01-03-2008, 18:47

I just realised that the rows are the Church teachings- left side Vices right side Virtues central aisle ends with the Sun at the Altar- Brotherhood - it is almost Masonic in a way.
Central Aisle starting at doorway
1- The Priest
4- The four corners of the Church- the building
7- The action or body of the Church- The people who are supposed to be the force/The Will and the spiritual architecture of the Church- it's earthly crown.
10- The change that happens
13 The resulting transformation and inevitability of your next stage
16 The throwing down of your ego at the altar
19 The Altar of the Son of God and your destination is the City of of God (the World) through the Christian faith.
Very Cool....
~Rosanne
and as always.....Maybe?

le pendu

02-03-2008, 07:19

Hi Robert- I am obviously years behind you :D Thanks for that thread.
I laid the cards out in a rough circle going clockwise- excluding card 21 The world(or putting it in the middle of the circle), and I saw a pattern of things we do know- like Le Pendu at 12- Justice at 8 etc etc. I put a triangle on the Virtues we know and a circle on the Vices we know.This was from your Giotto fresco that you linked by the way.
If you continue the pattern- Say Fortitude 11 Virtue, Hanged Man 12 Vice, 13, Temperance 14 Virtue, Devil 15 Vice Wrath, 16, Star 17 Virtue Hope? Moon 18 becomes a Vice Despair? 19, Judgement 20 becomes a Virtue Prudence? and card 0 The Fol is Foolishness the Vice and so on....
So I picked up the cards and laid them in rows of seven Cards starting bottom row card 1

3....6....9....12....15....18......0----These appear to Vices
2....5....8....11....14....17....20----These appear to be Virtues
1....4....7....10....13....16....19-----These appear to be the force/result?
So Hanged Man becomes Inconstancy/Disloyalty the opposite of Fortitude which is below it and also the WOF.
If this has any merit La Papesse becomes Charity or Love -The Mother Church and Judgement is Prudence.
I have trouble with the Empress being Envy and the Hermit being Injustice- but I am pretty happy with everything else.
Whatcha think- am I mad?
~Rosanne
Edited: I am dumb; I have put the World in the center of the circle- as first and last card put the Fool in the place of 21 in the rows- then it works as the Fool becomes the Vice Foolishness and the Virtue Prudence stays as Judgement.

It's fun isn't it? I'm not sure I'm ahead of you at all, I think we're both just traveling in similar circles with the same curiosity and connections guiding us... and are lucky to meet at the same spot now and again!

I'm not as concerned with numbers as you are, although it would be neat to see some order from it. I'm much more interested in trying to see if somehow these images are truly connected to the trumps, regardless of number (what numbering should we use anyway? right?).

I think it's interesting to see the connection between hope and desperation and the hanged man. It easy for me to see wrath become the Devil. The connection to the Fool is obvious. Even Fortuna, standing on her globe with her sails flying in the wind is here as Inconstancy.

I like the idea that we are seeing virtues, and vices in the cards. We talk about the virtues all the time, but we forget that the Fool and Fortune, at least from this time and place, were considered vices.

I think it's interesting to imagine an order of each vice being triumphed by its virture. THAT makes sense to me.. an internal order that would be easily recognizable to new players.. AND teach a moral lesson at the same time. I guess (and yes, it's only a guess), that the 14 cards painted for young Bianca were 7 vices and 7 virtues.

I think I also read somewhere that Giotto stayed (in his much earlier time) with the Viscontis, and actually painted a mural there, I'd LOVE to know what it was!!!

It's easy for me to see most if not all of the "Triumphs" in here too... Love, Chastity, Time, Death... obvious. Eternity is easy enough as Judgement or World. Fame is tougher for me... but yeah... they're pretty much all there, and they kind of mix in with the vices and virtues.

Of course, it's not a perfect match, or someone would have pointed it out years ago; but I do find it really fascinating to play with, and my gut says that even if there isn't a literal connection, there's something to be learned by studying this.

Is it possible that there were more than 22 at some point, and that some have been lost?

Rosanne

02-03-2008, 10:13

le pendu

02-03-2008, 10:42

Robert- thanks!
The interesting thing is if you turn those three lines upright instead parallel you get a mental diagram of a church- like the Giotto painted chapel. The ideas are hard for me to explain- but one small thing might make it clear- if you take it that Vices are represent on the left of the church (where you went to confess your sins) and the right side is depicted for the Virtues- the symbolic ideas come through-

Right, that makes sense, and as you say the chapel itself with the virtues on ones side and the vices on the other is set up that way. It's easy too to imagine the Sun, Moon and Star at the front of the chapel, perhaps even representing the trinity.

because the WOF is in the main body of the Church called the hub with the figure on the wheel heading downward Vice side and the Virtue side of the wheel is heading upward and the altar or toward the altar is the throned figure.
And now I'm blocked. It is so hard for me not to imagine the WoF with the Vices. I'd put it on the left side of the church, not in a hub.

The chariot would be below the WOF where you as the body of the Church spiritually enter the Hub and the chariot symbolises the action of controlling those two horses for Victory- Virtue over Vice.
It's a nice image. I have usually imagined Chastity in the Chariot, or mayb Prudence... so either a "triumph" or a "virtue". It's easier for me to go with the triumph in that postion (because I want the virtues on the right), so I'd consider Chastity in that position, as Chariot.

That is why death is in that line, because Catholic faith is about what happens after Death not before death, and our lives are supposed to be in preparation for the City of God.
Again, Death is a "triumph", so yeah, it wouldn't be in the left or right with virtues and vices.

Heavens that sounded very preachy- but I can see how these 22 cards show a spiritual diagram- and yes there may have been more- like a Trump that would explain the ornate Window behind the altar. Still working on that, and why anyone would see the Empress as Envy.
I can't imagine that, but then, we often discover new "meanings" with these cards as we keep digging at the layers.

I have figured out why the Hermit might be seen as Injustice from a Catholic point of view- which is a whole other thread.
I would, of course, not put him with a Vice, but as a triumph.. time.

Yes it is fun- but for me it brings understanding to this weird group of cards we call trumps.
~Rosanne

can I play with rearranging?

On the left I would have Vices

Foolishness (Fool)
Inconstancy (Fortune)
Wrath (Devil)
Injustice (Tower)
Infidelity (? Popess?)
Envy (?)
Desperation (Hanged Man)

On the right I would have the Virtues

Prudence (Bateleur?)
Fortitude (Strength)
Temperance (Temperence)
Justice (Justice)
Faith ( Popess? Pope??)
Charity (?)
Hope (?)

In the middle I would have the Trimuphs (leading to the altar)

Love (Lovers)
Chastity (Chariot)
Death (Death)
Time (Hermit)
Fame (World)
Eternity (Judgement)

And on the altar I would have the celestrials

Sun (the Father)
Moon (Jesus)
Holy Ghost (Star)

I don't know what I would do with Empress, Emperor. They seem an odd pair to be here.

The Pope could probably fit somewhere easily enough, not too shocking to have him in this church.

I hope I haven't derailed too much from your vision of how this might work, I thought I'd share my interpretation in case it sparks anything.

Thanks for the thread.

Rosanne

02-03-2008, 11:38

Hi Robert! I can see much validity in what you re arranged (especially the celestials as the Trinity). Of course I do not mind you arranging things- that is why the forum is of so much value.
Thing with your arrangement (I realise you did not place great emphasis on the numbers) is that when you put them in a circle there is no pattern to where a Vice is or a Virtue is. It was the word 'cycle' that made me me consider laying the whole group of 22 in a circle to see if there was a pattern. I had to start with what is sure- what is known as the image of a Virtue- like Justice. With those sure cards like the Hanged Man at 12- there appeared the kernel of a pattern. So I repeated it and then laid the cards in that order of the circle and it turned out that the Virtues became a group that when turned upward were all on one side. Le Pape/Pope became Faith which is very logical. I myself, cannot see WOF as Inconstancy, because it is static- there is no visual feeling of movement (as a figure turning the wheel would give) It looks jammed in that position; and the center of the church between the naves is known as the 'Hub' (Quite often where the Dome is above)
The Lovers is a hard one- as I have never thought of them as love really- but as something else. Never quite sure what that something else was lol- but in readings it always seemed to indicate 'wrong choice going down here'. I thought it might indicate Baptism- therefore the Baptismal font- but it is an odd name for Love as Lovers indicates a sort of immorality, certainly not Agape- and why the cupid blindfolded? Is cupid/cherubim saying "Love is blind- but you are not- choose fidelity?" There is no card that more clearly pictures unfaithfulness or infidelity more than the Lovers card does. It is a perfect foil to Le Pape/Pope in my eyes- who I put as Faith.
The Emperor has always had me stumped as what I call a throned card. So I figured what was important about him as representing State. His four-ness and his Eastward gaze. In a strange way in the Noblet his build looks like a Church. His meanings of Law and Order can be appropriated for the Church as well. As to the Empress.....still working on that- unless she is the Chalice (the bread basket) if you're looking at the Noblet. She is the flaw in my pudding. Envy??? why would there be Envy as a Vice in her symbolic image? If I change her in the cycle or the circle taking numbers into account- it is just circumstantial the pattern, and has no meaning- all just a coincidence. Not ready to admit that yet. ~Rosanne

Rosanne

02-03-2008, 16:26

I thought maybe I should start a new thread with these ruminations- but what lead me to them, is here- so unless the moderators wish to move this to TDM forum, I will plug on here.

In my pattern, from circle to three lines turned upwards we have three groups of 7 cards. Seven Vices to the left, Seven Virtues on the right; Seven cards in the center. These Seven cards I will focus on to show they are what makes up the church diagram, and the concept of of why we are in the Catholic Church in the first place. I must state that many of the views that were current in Catholicism, I do not hold to in a personal way, but I recognise as Historical. I was raised Catholic, but no longer consider myself Catholic. I am in no way denigrating the views of Tarot that are here and now- I hold to many of them. This is an exploration and a wondering in a particular time and particular mindset- The Renaissance.

Firstly I must get the Vice Envy out of the way, as it bothers me that in my numerical plan The Empress shows up as a Vice.
Here is an excerpt from my School book in religious study from over 40 years ago which may indicate the connection.

Envy whispers: "In what are you inferior to such women whom others extol? Why should you not enjoy the same and even greater consideration, for you excel them in many things? It is unjust that they should be ranked as your equals with much less reason should they be placed above you."
Love answers- "If your virtue exceeds that of others it is safer in obscurity, for the greater the elevation to which a woman is raised, the greater is the danger of her fall. If the possessions of others equal or exceed yours, in what does it prejudice you? Remember that by envying others you only liken yourself to those of whom it is written: "By the envy of the devil death came into the world; and they follow him that are of his side." (Wis. 2:24-25).

If I was to see the Emperor as the building of the Church itself- then The Empress is the the world outside the Church- earthly wealth and all things that are a distraction from the goal of Catholic teaching- which is to be found within the Church both spiritually and materially. Do not forget that the Church is Patriarchal and all that that entails. I do not wish to get into feminist argument, but historically to put a female on the side of Vice is something that I expect looking back at Church history. Do not look outside the Church with envy at the things you cannot have (or will not have) for within is sufficient for your needs to get to Heaven- the City of God. It is as Eve, the Empress is cast as the Temptress- she is the World of things you could envy and like Eve was considered the major player in the Fall of Man.
~Rosanne

Rosanne

02-03-2008, 18:24

I thought I might look at the is card first even though it be 6th in the sequence.
The reason being that it is the reason you go to church and why you need to go to church.
A Catholic then as now is required to fulfill obligations to the faith. They include going to confession at least once a year and receiving communion at least at Easter.
In very early Christianity Holy communion or the Eucharist was held in the laity's homes. By the time of the Peace of Constantine the holding of the bread and wine moved to the church, and placed in what is now called a Tabernacle. You could in early times receive Communion once a week on Sundays and there needed to be supply for taking to the sick.
In the late fourteenth century, special stone constructions for the Eucharistic bread began to be built, in northern Europe. In German and Netherlands churches of the period, such structures can still be seen: tall towers, known in German as Sakramentshäuser, in Dutch as sacramentstorens, in Italy siborium/casadium/tabernacle; usually placed to the north of the altar and often reaching almost to the ceiling. There was an opening at the back and one at the front so the people could see where God was housed. They looked like typical church columns with a crown on top.
Now then one might wonder why the Tabernacle or God's house is blasted by fiery tongue and two figures are falling out and there are these little balls that I used to think were cannon balls as in the TDM.
Well I think this is two part. Firstly what Communion meant and what dualistic Heresy was about. These are both lengthy subjects- but briefly Communion is the miracle of the changing of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus and it purifies you in the spirit- you cast your ego out and partake of Jesus- the dualistic heresy maintained that Communion was not important and because of this type of heresy the Inquisition began.
~Rosanne

Rosanne

03-03-2008, 05:32

I expected someone to come and clip me around the ears- because looked at this way- this card is not in a Journey but in a Blueprint.
Maybe I should tell you more about communion so you can see the association with falling out the Tower.
Two aspects of Communion/Eucharist are inseparable. It is a Feast/Banquet/Meal and it is a Sacrifice.
It is called a Sacrifice because Jesus died on the Cross for our sins- he sacrificed himself for us.
It is called a Meal because food is taken in fellowship. Consider food: We eat it after it has been killed and offered up to us to eat (food as offerings is as old as Man) With animals they give up their lives to nourish ours. I am presuming that Adam and Eve were vegetarian as Death did not exist before their Fall. No Nun would ever answer that question for me except to say God gave you permission in Genesis which never really cut it for me. :D Anyway beck to Food!
"My Life For Yours" is the law of nature and in Catholicism it is "of Grace" So in a spiritual way the figures falling from God's House are doing the same thing- giving up their life/ego in love and a state of Grace to partake in the meal of Communion. They are in a 'state of Grace' because they have confessed their sins, being pardoned by God, given Penance by the Priest, promised to be more virtuous than they were vice ridden yesterday- helped by the Grace of God through his Son Jesus in Communion- They have been at the Altar rails, blessed in Fellowship by God (hey that looks like the Sun card in RWS and TDM)and if you died in this State of Grace you went straight to Heaven to stand at the 'Right' side of God. The trick was to keep yourself in a state of Grace. Be on the right side of the Church in Virtue. Then again you could receive communion before you died if you had confessed your sins- you might not have had to go through the weekly falling from God's House spiritually- leaving your ego outside the Church. "Thy will- Not My Will Lord"
Now you know about the Tower as Tabernacle- the other Tabernacle is a 'Dove' and that is the name of the other place Communion was kept. At the end of Mass/Meal/Sacrifice "Ite- Missa est" (Go in Peace the meal has ended)
~Rosanne

Melanchollic

03-03-2008, 08:54

This interpretation is particularly illuminating considering the gentleman on card XV.

Rosanne

03-03-2008, 09:36

Ah yes Melancholic- the little Devils are in fellowship with Vice or The Devil-can't get to communion either- because they are not sorry- usually hands behind the back- can't partake by receiving. Very Interesting to look at the sequence like this- makes sense in many ways, rather than a story of War and Peace, or a Fall of Princes, or a Journey of the Fool. I think people who were not raised Catholic- forget that the 'Faith' was very symbolic in imagery so it could be understood -most having been written and spoken about in Latin. That is why the Renaissance was such a surge in learning, because written became in the vernacular;so the people understood what was been said. Not that the Church took that leap inside the Church. ~Rosanne

Rosanne

05-03-2008, 17:05

Using the Noblet- because it explains it clearest- but using any deck you could in images explain the Catholic Church in both a material diagram of the Church and a spiritual diagram called the Communion of Saints.

This is the Church from a Renaissance point of view (and to a certain extent, still the view today.

Every single person on the face of this earth is meant to be a Catholic. Every single person on the face of this earth is meant to follow Our Lord through His true Church and thus to be fed with His very Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Most Blessed Sacrament. Every person on the face of this earth is meant to make frequent use of the hospital of Divine Mercy that is the confessional. Every person on the face of this earth is meant to rely upon the maternal love and Heavenly support provided by Our Lady,(who incidentally is called the very first Tabernacle) who made possible our salvation by her perfect fiat to the Father's Will at the Annunciation. Every person on the face of this earth is meant to be in constant conversation with the members of the Church Triumphant in Heaven and the Church Suffering in Purgatory. BY this the Church becomes the Church Triumphant, and includes all members both living and dead and in Purgatory

Card 1. Ecclesia Docens-The teaching and hearing bodies of Christ's Church are technically called "ecclesia docens" and "ecclesia discens".
The distinction between the teaching body of the Church and the body of hearers was made by its Founder in the command: "Going therefore, teach ye all nations" (Matthew 28:19); "he that heareth you, heareth me" (Luke 10:16). Card 1 is the teacher and we the audience are the Hearers.
Card 2. Ecclesia- The Bride of Christ- LOVE- The Highest Virtue "Sancti ante legem, sancti sub lege, sancti sub gratia ("The saints before the Law, the saints under the Law, and the saints under grace").
Card 4. The Visible Church, both material and formal the two perfect societies- State and Church combined to form the Holy Roman Church of the Empire or 'Catholic' which means 'universal' as everywhere as the Empire is.
Card 7. The Church militant or the Church alive who must fight like 'Little Kings' and be in conversation and Prayer with The Church Sorrowful/Expectant in Purgatory and the Church Triumphant, those already in Heaven. They must overcome Vice by Virtue.
Card 10. 'Little Kings' or Church Militant in struggle with Virtue over Vice.
Card 13. The Church Sorrowful/Expectant in Purgatory, reaped for God by Death, who have not quite got it right like a Saint, but will be Triumphant.
Card 16.The Tabernacle of God's Grace (as explained in previous posts.)
Card 19 The fellowship of the Church Militant after Holy Communion and strengthened for the fight and blessed.
Card 21 The Church Triumphant The Communion of the Saints (everybody who believes and has been forgiven and died in Christ)
That is the Spiritual Diagram which is echoed in the physical diagram of a church.
1. The Entrance way
4. The Building complete
7. The main body of the Church
10. The HUb- where the Dome is over the Altar and Tabernacle
13. The Right side Altar/Rostrum
16. The Tabernacle
19. The Altar rails and central aisle
21.The Rose Window which has the Lectern in front (it has changed now)
If there ever was another Trump, under my proposal it is either in between 19 and 21 (given that the cards may have been unnumbered) or Between Cards 1 and 3 as the Vice Envy- which would make the Empress the Holy water font at the Entrance of the Church and/ or a baptismal font to the left.

I quite accept that the cards might have been a humorous or slightly cynical take on this sequence, but cards could not be allowed to have a sacred meaning in the images- so this code would have been perfectly acceptable.
It would have been clear to the Living Saints to be or the 'Little Kings' who played with them- and maybe why they were not censured.
Thats my theory anyway. :D
~Rosanne

Melanchollic

05-03-2008, 17:25

-----

Rosanne

05-03-2008, 20:00

Well firstly- I no longer have a star beside my name.
...and sniff sniff and Pfft! Being female I was always stuck at the left side of the Church where Vice is depicted- my brothers at the right- little Kings they were!
Still the same at weddings- Bride's family at the left- Grooms at the right. To make things worse -the Bride's family is who pays! whom paid!
I can make an essay with pic's, but I would have thought it would bore people witless. It certainly still annoys me. I also would have to unpack, what has been packed for many a year. Still I reckon these 22 cards came from a blueprint, and it makes interesting reading (if light and short). I guess there are a few who have been curious looking at the views. I can hear the Church Triumphant shouting at me from above...."Once a Catholic- always a Catholic!"
I will think on it.
Thanks for your vote of confidence on a theory Meanchollic!
~Rosanne

Rosanne

07-03-2008, 08:32

Well if you have read thus far, you may be wondering where I am going with this. Be Brave and read on...:D

An important work by Durandus(Guillaume Durand (c. 1230 – November 1, 1296) also known as Durandus, Duranti or Durantis, from the Italian form of Durandi filius) was the Rationale divinorum officiorum, a liturgical treatise written in Italy before 1286, on the origin and symbolic sense of the Christian ritual. It presents a picture of the liturgy of the 13th century in the West, studied in its various forms, its traditional sources, and its relation to the church buildings and furniture.

John Chrysostom called for a "feast of martyrs of the whole world." At his behest the feast of All Saints (All Hallows), those known and unknown, has been observed since the fourth century.
The Nicene Creed leaves us in no doubt of the importance of this early church teaching. As Christians we profess a belief in the communion of saints.
This interconnectedness is a dogma that has been observed and loved by the church through the centuries. It brings us all together as one family. It includes not only canonized saints but also all those who have died. It keeps us connected to our beloved dead. We pray for them, for whatever obligations they left unfinished, and we ask them to pray for us.
It is in the celebration of the Eucharist that this communion is most manifest. Here the whole church is united. The Eucharist binds Christians with the entire Christian community, living and dead, through those physically present at the celebration and those absent.
The Third Eucharistic Prayer prays that those who are nourished by the Lord's body and blood may be "filled with the Holy Spirit and become one body, one Spirit in Christ."
http://www.nigrasum.com/san_nicola_nero_plate.gif
On all four sides Nicholas is flanked by various figures. Christ and Mary, the Mother of Christ, hover in the clouds
above his right and left shoulders. Sitting on the ground to his left is the tub of brine with the three children who,
according to tradition, were restored to life by the saint. Standing on his right side is an adolescent male who holds
a silver plate and wine cruet, both of which represent the ritual Communion of Saints.
Now here is the connection in my theory

"In taberna fraus eternal semper est in ludo" (In the tavern the eternal swindle is always being plotted.)

Betting games have existed since the earliest of times in virtually all cultures. In the early 1600s, a public gambling house was legalized for the first time in Venice, Italy. High Venetian society gathered in so called little houses or "casini" to indulge in everything from business and politics to gambling. "Casino" became synonymous with vice and perdition. The first casinos(although they were not called this) also appeared in ancient times, serving Romans who traveled to resorts near natural spas. During the Middle Ages, gambling flourished at inns along the roads traveled by soldiers and merchants. Gambling Houses were not known as Casinos in the Middle ages- The gaming establishments (tafureriasin Spanish 'baratterie' in Italian, 'brelans' in French, 'Spielhäuser' in German) were gambling houses, sometimes known as "the king’s gambling houses"
How like the structure of a Church was the Gambling House!
If Card 1 is the Eclessia Docens In the tabernacle of the Church- Card 1 is also the Eclessia Docens- of the Gaming House- the Taberna (same Latin root word). All the same images of sacred become profane
Here is an excerpt from MC Romeo’s Essay on Chess
The team of middlemen in the medieval gambling dives evolved into four different types: one who rented the gaming material, one who kept count of the results, one who held the bets and the proprietor. These four functions could be concentrated in a single person, any of the aforementioned, but ordinarily it would be the landlord of the dive, as Konrad of Haslau describes in his educational poem "Der Jüngling":
"A player of good stock
has four people who use his money:
The one who lends the dice and the one who keeps records of the result
And the one who holds the bets.
The fourth one is the one who provides the game table and the light,
Who is the landlord of the place." (In images he is the one holding the Jug/Plate/Chalice)
Take a look at the Noblet Bateleur.
In the Gambling House a meal was served along with wine as standard practice- the higher in the class of client the more sumptuous the meal and more readily available was the wine.
I hope you enjoyed this little foray into musings and wonderings.
~Rosanne

jmd

07-03-2008, 17:08

Quite a complex and workable overview, Rosanne - I for one would like to see what you called earlier: "an essay with pics"... it would also assist in seeing it all!

Rosanne

14-03-2008, 10:42

It was also believed that the souls of sinful persons who passed away during the year were imprisoned in the bodies of animals and that they on Halloween night could be freed through gifts and sacrifices. Often the sacrifices were human.
Communion of the Saints
In contrast, the Catholic feasts of All Saints Day and All Souls Day offer a much more pleasant opportunity for recognition of our Communion of the Saints or fellowship with those dead to this earthly existence.

It seems that when Protestants talk about Communion of the Saints they mean fellowship among local church members and/or members of other churches or denominations. This is a fellowship for people who are living in this see/touch world.

The Catholic Church emphasizes that with Christ at the head the body of the Church, the people who make up the Church, living or dead, cannot be separated. Therefore, Communion of the Saints has a much broader meaning in the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church teaches that the Church exists in three different states. One is the pilgrim church struggling to live faithful lives in this earthly existence. Another is the triumphant church of saints already in Heaven. The other state is existence in purgatory or the suffering church. In purgatory, the faithful are purified for entry into the triumphant church.
so we have the three states- alive, in Purgatory and in Heaven.

What is an earthly Church of the Pilgrim?
The Tavern and the Gambling Den!
Interesting that this is how proto taverns and gambling Dens came about in one sense...
The late Middle Ages introduced the first proto-taverns. Often controlled by local clergymen who knew how to motivate their flocks, these infant bars were usually little more than a couple of knotty wooden planks and a cask of ale. Thirsty laborers ponied up a penny or two for a quaff from a common-use dipper. The proceeds were returned to the community in the form of church improvements. Many a stone mason could look upon his work and say with pride, “I drank that abbey into existence.You might gamble with cards or dice, drink, eat or contract with a lady of the night

It seems to me that playing of cards and gambling with dice etc, given how the taverns came about was not so much about the gambling as it was about Blasphemy.
Blasphemy also integrated socially disparate game players; the aristocrat demonstrating superiority whilst the vagrant demonstrating contempt for authority. Within gambling circles blasphemy also craved providential favour from the Almighty or demonstrated the failure of such providence, arousing a cocktail of concerns amongst moralists. The attitude of authority recoiled from the suggestion that God would act without purpose, yet the omnipotence of the almighty could still encourage the idea of divine favour. Thus invoking providence whilst gambling became sinful, inevitably leading to the cursing and blaming of God for misfortune. Some participants even saw this blatantly as an exchange transaction in which God had failed to honour the debt owed for human worship. Ultimately this was also dangerous, since it constituted a rebellion against providence with an individual rejecting their own destiny. (Robert Nesh on Blasphemy)
So a place where the pilgrim played cards was a blasphemous house/community, and could not show sacred images in the cards, but from then til now it is popularly known as a Church and gambling a religion.
~Rosanne

Rosanne

14-03-2008, 11:40

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/10940/10940-h/images/fig107.png

Where playing Dice was known as 'The Game of God'.

Rosanne

30-03-2008, 08:25

Quite a complex and workable overview, Rosanne - I for one would like to see what you called earlier: "an essay with pics"... it would also assist in seeing it all!

Well jmd I was getting all my Knights in a row on this and I came upon this site, written in 2006.
http://www.hermetics.org/tarocchi.html

Well the author was on the same quest as me..... earlier.
A very interesting read.
I do not agree with the final outcome of which card is which Vice and I believe the the placing of the cards in a circle and following the pattern gives you the Vice, the Virtue and the cards that make the physical church of both Gambling and Catholic Faith- but the reasoning I agree with.
Now it seems like plagiarism to make a chart.......:mad:
~Rosanne

mac22

30-03-2008, 08:48

Rosanne,

It's a treat watching your mind work!:D

Mac22

Melanchollic

30-03-2008, 12:12

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Rosanne

30-03-2008, 13:26

Hehehe Mac! My mind is a minefield, but for you I will remove the mines and put my diagram down.
Remember that Vices are on the left of a Church and Vices are to the right. So we start at the entrance and end at the Altar.
Vices.......................Virtues............... ..Planets/Blueprint/Maybes
3 Envy.....................2 Charity..............1 Mercury
6 Infidelity................5 Faith.................4 Mars
9 Injustice................8 Justice..............7 Venus
12 Inconstancy.........11 Fortitude..........10 Earth
15 Wrath..................14 Temperance....13 Saturn
18 Despair................17 Hope..............16 Jupiter
.0 Foolishness............21 Prudence........19 Sun
20 Stands alone as the result or Judgment on Earth
So if you stand at the Church Entrance
.......Altar.............
0........................21
18......................17
15......................14
12......................11
9.........................8
6.........................5
3.........................2
.......Doorway In......
1. Priest (He is the Man! at the altar- the magican)
4. Church Building (Holy Roman Catholic Church- Empire- House of God's warriors like Mars)
7. Body of Church- The Faithful(Active and alive in Love of God like Venus)
10. The Hub/ Dome over (where change happens and change is the Moon above the earth-we are Earth changing)
13. Confessional/Pulpit(Like Saturn- the Harvester, where you pray for all souls in Purgatory)
16. The Tabernacle (Like Jupiter or Jove- God)
19. The Altar rails and Rose Window West Light setting sun/Bible lectern.(The Sun/The Son of God)
20. The People/The Spirit/The result- salvation and resurrection.(People on Earth-Christians- not the World)
Amen :D. Note it is a trinity- just like the Dice.
~Rosanne

mac22

30-03-2008, 13:28

Thanks Rosanne.

mac22

Rosanne

30-03-2008, 15:48

Hi Rosanne,

Thanks for the link to the article. Mr. Marathakis concisely sums up the history of Tarot. The first half of that article should be required reading for everyone in the world... Well, maybe just everyone who has a Tarot deck! ;)

:CL Cheers,
R
a
H
Yes RAH- the article is one of the best for clearly explaining Tarot History in less than a book. It should have a thread of it's own. Glad you enjoyed it- I did. ~Rosanne

Bernice

30-03-2008, 20:49

Many thanks for that link Rosanne. :)

Bee