View Full Version : Courts discussion (Split from Book T and the Astrological Signs)
To take it a step further... (if this is too early to toss in let me know)
The Cardinal signs are ruled by the Queens, the Fixed signs ruled by the Princes , and the Mutable signs ruled by the (Kings/Thoth-Knights)... These assignments fit with the character of these courts... As a simple mnemonic:
Cardinals/Queens (on thrones) express Awarenessof the element.
Fixed/Princes (on chariots) represent the Action or Aggression of the element.
Mutable/Kings (on horses) express Accomplishment of the element.
And each of these courts express in large part the character of the 3 decans ruled. For people who have a hard time reading the courts, looking at the 3 cards ruled by the court can give a great astrological handle.
And the Princesses are the "Thrones of the Aces"... a topic unto itself which we can save for a later day.
the Fixed signs ruled by the (Kings/Thoth-Knights), and the Mutable signs ruled by the Princes...
Uh oh! :D I'm gonna open a whole nother bucket of worms here, that might be better in another thread, but shouldn't we be saying Fixed Sign = Princes or Kings on THRONES, Mutable = Knight or King on HORSE?
Uh Oh! :D
Why queen = cardinal and Knight/king = Fixed?
Briefly, Cardinal Signs represent the start of the Element, they are rapid and short lived energy. Fixed signs are the full strength of the Element, they are as the name Fixed suggests, more stable and long lasting energy.
I would have thought the knights (guys on horses in Thoth, fire thingy) are more suited to "rapid and short lived energy"
And the queens are more suited to "more stable and long lasting energy"
And yes, I think we need to sort out who is who in the courts at some point.
but shouldn't we be saying Fixed Sign = Princes or Kings on THRONES, Mutable = Knight or King on HORSE?
The Cardinal signs are ruled by the Queens, the Fixed signs ruled by the (Kings/Thoth-Knights), and the Mutable signs ruled by the Princes
Cos both of your statements there contradict each other.
Why queen = cardinal and Knight/king = Fixed?
I would have thought the knights (guys on horses in Thoth, fire thingy) are more suited to "rapid and short lived energy"
I think because the blokes on horses in the Thoth are Kings and so they would be the most powerful therefore Fixed. Not sure..
Love FLuff
xx
elvenstar
08-04-2008, 07:27
Similia, thank you for a very clear explanation of everything so far! It makes a lot of sense.
So there are three cards in each of twelve signs and twelve cards in each of three modes.
Why queen = cardinal and Knight/king = Fixed?
I would have thought the knights (guys on horses in Thoth, fire thingy) are more suited to "rapid and short lived energy"
And the queens are more suited to "more stable and long lasting energy"
And yes, I think we need to sort out who is who in the courts at some point.
I kind of thought the same. In book T it says that:
The Queens represent 'a force steady and unshaken, but not rapid, though enduring'. That sounds a lot like fixed.
Kings or Figures mounted on steeds are a 'force swift and violent in its action, but whose effect soon passes away'. I would assume that would be the Thoth Knights and it doesn't sound to fit the fixed description. That would be cardinal?
The effect of Princes is 'at once rapid (though not so swift as that of the Queen) and enduring. [...] Yet is his power vain unless set in Motion by his Father and Mother. So that would be mutable in my head. Not that I know that much about 'modes'. It would make it less confusing if we could establish who is who.
But then it goes on to say that Courts do their own thing 'in between the signs'. So... ?
Errr, I hope it's ok if I join in :D
And yes, I think we need to sort out who is who in the courts at some point....Cos both of your statements there contradict each other.
Y its likely Scion and I are referring to different things. There are a several ways to line the Courts up with the decans and zodiac signs. There is a thread I asked about part of Crowley's book here (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=91691) that shows two ways, but they aren't the only ways.
I've always assumed that the blokes on horses (if called King or Knight or whatever) "ruled" the Mutable minors, as they are attributed commonly to the first two decans (first 2/3rds) of the mutable sign and the last decan (1/3rd) of the preceeding sign. E.g. the Knight of Wands get mostlly Sagittarius which is Mutable fire, but also a little bit of Scorpio, Fixed Water, which is the preceeding sign.
Most GD authors will agree on that, though some line the RWS style courts up differently than others which changes things. Then there are also other considerations from the qabalah etc. so we're probably better to get into that a bit later on. The courts are much less simple astrologically than the minors and majors.
2,3,4 of Wands. Aries (Fire in the fireīs way, progressive)
5,6,7 of Wands. Leo (Fire in waterīs way, regressive)
8,9,10 of Wands. Sagittarius (Fire in airīs way, varied)
This is another way to look at it, similar to what is discussed by Crowley in the thread I linked to above with the Courts.
I should say the information I gave on what Cardinal means, Mutable means etc. comes from astrology and not a tarot reference. Those "meanings" will change on the actualy Court Cards, as the courts are composed of many different pieces and not just those one things.
Hopefully Scion will be along shortly, so we hear some more about the system he referenced. I might leave the topic alone for now, as I think I'm muddying up the water a bit :D
Always Wondering
08-04-2008, 10:03
I kind of thought the same. In book T it says that:
The Queens represent 'a force steady and unshaken, but not rapid, though enduring'. That sounds a lot like fixed.
Kings or Figures mounted on steeds are a 'force swift and violent in its action, but whose effect soon passes away'. I would assume that would be the Thoth Knights and it doesn't sound to fit the fixed description. That would be cardinal?
The effect of Princes is 'at once rapid (though not so swift as that of the Queen) and enduring. [...] Yet is his power vain unless set in Motion by his Father and Mother. So that would be mutable in my head. Not that I know that much about 'modes'. It would make it less confusing if we could establish who is who.
I am wondering if I have a incomplete Book T download because I can't find this. Is there a page number, or some other reference. Maybe it glitched when I printed it out.
Thanks Elvenstar,
AW
elvenstar
08-04-2008, 10:48
Near the beginning, after the Aces, under 'the sixteen, or royal cards'.
Always Wondering
08-04-2008, 10:55
Near the beginning, after the Aces, under 'the sixteen, or royal cards'.
Ahhh. :lightbulb Thanks. You made it much more neat and compact.
Y its likely Scion and I are referring to different things. There are a several ways to line the Courts up with the decans and zodiac signs. There is a thread I asked about part of Crowley's book here (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=91691) that shows two ways, but they aren't the only ways. Sort of, G... but actuallyt there is only one way that the GD associates the courts with the decans. The "other" thing Crowley is talking about is Sephirothic attribution (as in Queens are all in Binah with the 3s).
I'm running late so I'm braindumping and will clean up my mess later. :)
The problem with using modern astrology books is that they turn themselves inside out to explain why everything in the sky indicates a subjective mood, but don't actually contain much astrology. For anyone who's feeling frisky I really recommend The Real Astrology by John Frawley and The Moment of Astrology by Geoffrey Cornelius. Modern sun sign astrology is pretty embarassing when you get down to brass tacks, but that's a whole different convo. })
As for GD Kings (on horseback) ruling the Fixed signs... the disconnect people are having is with the word "fixed." Fixed doesn't only mean "stationary." The way I keep it clear for myself is to think of it in this context as a synonym for "focused." Cardinal is the "throned" mode because it occupies the starting point of each sign. They "oversee" the rest of the sign and are "aware" of the entirety of the sign's element/mode intersection. The GD Kings (on horseback) express the sign at it's most "swift and violent, but transient" (BoT) ruling the "Royal" stars in Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius and Taurus. And the mutable princes represent the combined energy of both parents, which will (mutably) pass as he weds the Queen and becomes the new (mounted in all sense of the word) King... (There's another whole question here about that lingering 10 degrees of the prior sign I'd love to get into later.)
But this thread should really be about the MInors and the Decans, right? I'm sorry for the Court digression. More on the minors shortly.
More importantly we're using the Picatrix's rulerships and NOT the Jyotish (& modenr astrological) rulerships of the decans... which is in itself a clue. The Golden Dawn is poointing us back to the Picatrix and (for once) NOT to Agrippa, which actually goes to prove Ravenest's point about thee magickal use of the stars. I've lots to say about that choice and the implications but I've just seen the time. :bugeyed:
But I'm going to be late this morning so I'm just gonna post this and see what pops out of the soup today.
Scion
Sort of, G... but actuallyt there is only one way that the GD associates the courts with the decans. .....As for GD Kings (on horseback) ruling the Fixed signs...
This is where your loosing me Scion, cause I also thought there was only one way of associating the Courts with the Decans, and the one I know doesn't seem to match what your saying. I look up the Courts in Crowley, or Book T etc and I see the Knights listed as having the last decan of the preeceding Fixed sign, and the first 2 decans of the elementally matching Mutable sign.
It seems to me your saying the Knight/King of Wands (horse guy/yod) is ruling fixed Fire, Leo.
But the books are saying to me its attributed to the last decan of Fixed Water (Scorpio) and the first 2 decans of Mutable Fire (Sagittarius). So it would in fact "rule" the 7 of Cups and 8 & 9 of Wands. Unless rule is a term your using to imply something different than line up with in the Zodiac.
Which is a little confusing to me. Though your not alone in that suggestion. Wang makes a similar suggestion in his Qabalistic Tarot. Not for the Thoth of GD decks, where he seems to also suggest the Knights are predominantly mutable, but he matches the Knight/Kings on horses with the RWS Kings on Thrones (which I think are more properly matched to the Princes and hence the Fixed signs).
franniee
08-04-2008, 23:58
As for GD Kings (on horseback) ruling the Fixed signs... the disconnect people are having is with the word "fixed." Fixed doesn't only mean "stationary." The way I keep it clear for myself is to think of it in this context as a synonym for "focused." Cardinal is the "throned" mode because it occupies the starting point of each sign. They "oversee" the rest of the sign and are "aware" of the entirety of the sign's element/mode intersection. The GD Kings (on horseback) express the sign at it's most "swift and violent, but transient" (BoT) ruling the "Royal" stars in Leo, Scorpio, Aquarius and Taurus. And the mutable princes represent the combined energy of both parents, which will (mutably) pass as he weds the Queen and becomes the new (mounted in all sense of the word) King...
OK one more thing before you drop this part of the discussion.... the way I learned it astrologically is mutable, cardinal, fixed. The season transitions during the mutable sign.... so for example summer ends and fall is on it's way during Virgo a mutable sign - the season truly begins during libra a cardinal sign and continues full on during the fixed sign scorpio...... sagitarius brings the end of fall and the transition to winter.... capricorn brings in beginning of winter.... aquarius full on winter..... pisces brings in the end of winter and the transition to spring... and so forth.
Mutable signs usually can go with the flow - they can react well to change (the child analogy is a good one) change is what they are about. They would be the princes in GD - knights everywhere else. Queens are cardinal - they take action, they are the manifestation of the sign and the Kings/knights are the fixed aspect of the sign - they like to run things - rule.
The trouble for me is.... on some of the thoth cards the symbols are odd - like the prince of disks has a bull, the symbol of taurus, depicted. The prince should be virgo ? The queen should be taurus but she has a goat on her card...capricorn? The knight of cups has a crab above his cup - cancer and that is a cardinal sign - therefore should be representative of the queen. This part has me confused.
This is where your loosing me Scion, cause I also thought there was only one way of associating the Courts with the Decans, and the one I know doesn't seem to match what your saying. I look up the Courts in Crowley, or Book T etc and I see the Knights listed as having the last decan of the preeceding Fixed sign, and the first 2 decans of the elementally matching Mutable sign. No this is MY bad. There is only one way of assignment, but I confused the issue by swapping the kings & princes' modes. :rolleyes: So dumb.
Way back on page one of this thread I said Princes were Mutable, but the the Princes are FIXED. The KINGS are mutable. Duh. Totally my bad. This is what I get for juggling too many balls. I'd suspected something was off when I was typing this morning but I didn't go back and check my own work. Note to self: must sleep.
The Princes are Fixed, the Cherubim rule the elements from Tiphareth. Sorry. Ack!! How embarassing! :bugeyed: But the rest of what I'd said above stands... The Mutability (as I htink Fran pointed out above) is much more approprioate for the transition and shift of the element. Ack. I'm suyre somewhere in my confusion was a lingering thought about the WS vs./ Crowley courts.
Now going back to fix those posts so that are at least correct.... Must write a treatment now, but will come back to discuss further later on.
Always Wondering
09-04-2008, 03:20
[QUOTE=Scion] This is what I get for juggling too many balls. I'd suspected something was off when I was typing this morning but I didn't go back and check my own work. Note to self: must sleep. QUOTE]
I have wondered when you find time to sleep.
}) (A bit jealoulsy as I admire all your accomplshments.
AW