VII The Chariot

catboxer

29-05-2002, 08:54

The earliest versions of the Chariot are much different from what came later. In both the Cary-Yale Visconti deck and the Visconti-Sforza, the car is pulled by prancing horses, and the driver is a female. These are obviously not war chariots, and possibly the patrons, who were at least partially responsible for the content of the packs they would use for gaming, specified that they wanted no overt references to war in their cards. So both of these pictures show a chariot in a triumphal celebration or parade, of a type common in Italy since Roman times. "Triumph" is the root of the word we use to designate the 22 cards under study here ("trump"), and while the elements of the picture changed within the first 200 years of tarocchi, the theme of "victory" remained. In fact, some of the early versions of this card are called Victory.

Unfortunately, there are very few chariot cards remaining on the uncut decks that give us most of our information about early Italian woodblock packs, but the one I've referred to several times before (Kaplan, V. II, p. 286) has the bottom half of this card, showing only two tiny horses. There's no way of telling whether the driver is male or female.

The crowned, male warrior appears in the earlist Marseilles decks. In the mid-17th-century Noblet Tarot, the card has already taken on all the characterisitics it will possess in the classic Marseilles tradition, including the horses whose bodies seem to emanate from the same point of origin, due to woodblock artists' difficulties in handling perspective representation in a very tight space.

However, the possibly slightly earlier Jacques Vieville deck's chariot is drawn not by horses, but by the two sphinxes that would not appear in tarot again for 150 years. This is an extremely significant detail, and whether the French occultists of the 19th century knew of it is anybody's guess. I've always assumed that E. Levi transformed the horses into sphinxes on his own initiative, in a lame attempt to ascribe an Egyptian origin to the cards. The Vieville deck is an extremely interesting study, and it may be the most important known link between the Italian and French tarot traditions. There are important details of it that I have never seen in any other deck, and some of the cards, such as trump XVI, appear to follow an Italian rather than classical French pattern which, as such, didn't exist yet at that time.

I always think of this card as representing victory, but victory is a somewhat vague term embracing such ideas as "victory over caffeine addiction." I believe this card implies serious conflict, even though the earliest patrons of tarot creation tried to soft-peddle the fact that a chariot is a war weapon. It may or may not be referring to a physical conflict, but I most often interpret this card as "a chance to triumph over one's adversaries."

Dave B

Kaz

30-05-2002, 08:50

attaching the carey-yale visconti

kaz

Kaz

30-05-2002, 08:50

and the visconti sforza......

kaz

Kaz

30-05-2002, 08:55

indeed in the older decks you see horses instead of sphinxes, although in a lot of modern decks there is just a chariot pulled by whatever they think fit as a pulling force. and, it doesn't really matter i think, as it's about the idea behind it. the concept is most of the times a contrast between the two animals puling the cart, like the black/white sphinxes, or the direction they face. they stand for our senses pulling us in different directions, the charioteer holds all of this together so you don't just drift on the input of your senses alone. and he is victorious in all cards, not by using force, but by guiding.
the warrior looking armor has nothing to do with a fight he has to deliver in my opinion, this has to do with a means of protection, keeping distance, holding off. this whole card is very much about yourself and how you "stand" in the world, all things in the cards refer to you and your interaction with the world around you, but not so much on a physical level for me, although that can be true in some situations yes.
just my 0.02 about the chariot.....

kaz

catboxer

30-05-2002, 11:41

Kaz:

I really appreciate your providing links to the images from the two Visconti decks. I'm just now learning how to manipulate graphics in a computer and on the web, so it'll be awhile before I can move this stuff around the way the rest of you folks manage to do.

(cb)

jmd

30-05-2002, 20:14

It may be that some early depictions, as represented on the Visconti type decks, are quite different to Marseilles representations (and thank you, again, for posting these, Kaz), but early textual reference is clearly far more in line with Marseilles depictions.

What follows consists of part of a much earlier e.mail I sent MeeWah, in discussing my version of VII The Chariot in the Aeclectic Tarot project.

Plato discusses the 'three parts of the Soul' in both the Phaedrus and the Republic. Here is a 'short' quote from the Phaedrus (Great Books of the Western World, p124 §246)Of the nature of the soul, though her true form be ever a theme of large and more than mortal discourse, let me speak briefly, and in a figure. And let the figure be composite - a pair of winged horses and a charioteer [...]

the human character drives his in a pair; and one of them is noble and of noble breed, and the other is ignoble and of ignoble breed; and the driving of them of necessity gives a great deal of trouble to him [...]

The soul in her totality has the care of inanimate being everywhere, and traverses the whole heaven in divers forms appearing: - when perfect and fully winged she soars upward, and orders the world order; whereas the imperfect soul, losing her wings and drooping in her flight as last settles on the solid ground - there, finding a home, she receives an earthly frame which appears to be self-moved, but is really moved by her power; and this composition of soul and body is called a living and mortal creature [...]

[p128, §253] As I said at the beginning of this tale, I divided each soul into three - two horses and a charioteer; and one of the horses was good and the other bad: the division may remain, but I have not yet explained in what the goodness or badness of either consists, and to that I will proceed. The right-hand horse is upright and cleanly made; he has a lofty neck and an aquiline nose; his colour is white, and his eyes dark; he is a lover of honour and modesty and temperance, and the follower of true glory; he needs no touch of the whip, but is guided by word and admonition only. The other is a crooked lumbering animal, put together anyhow; he has a short thick neck; he is flat-faced and of a dark colour, with gray eyes and blood-red complexion [alternative translation: 'with gray and blood-shot eyes']; the mate of insolence and pride, shag-eared and deaf, hardly yielding to whip and spur. Now when the charioteer beholds the vision of love, and has his whole soul warmed through sense, and is full of the prickings and ticklings of desire, [§254] the obedient steed, then always under the government of shame, refrains from leaping on the beloved; but the other, heedless of the pricks and of the blows of the whip, plunges and runs away, giving all manner of trouble to his companion and the charioteer, whom he forces to approach the beloved and to remember the joys of love[...]In the Republic, Plato mentions that there are three parts to the soul: Reason, or the thinking part; Emotions, or the feeling part; and the appetitive body (or the Willing part)

I'll leave this for now, and attach my Aeclectic version, as it was quite influenced by the Marseilles... and it gives me an excuse to post a rarety (ie, my own work!).

catboxer

01-06-2002, 09:26

jmd:

That's an extremely original conception of the chariot -- the soul's eye view. I'll bet there's never been anything else like it, and for people who are into the classic chariot metaphor it's highly appropriate.

The metaphor by Plato was very...well, Platonic, and full of his usual gnostic implications. It was preceded by a similar, but much more succinct and simplified version of the same concept by the Katha Unpanishad of about 1500 BCE:

"Know that the self is the rider, and the body the chariot; that the intellect is the charioteer, and the mind the reins.
"The senses, say the wise, are the horses; the roads they travel are the mazes of desire. The wise call the self the enjoyer when he is united with the body, the senses, and the mind.
"When a man lacks discrimination and his mind is uncontrolled, his senses are unmanageable, like the restive horses of a charioteer. But when a man has discrimination and his mind is controlled, his senses, like the well-broken horses of a charioteer, lightly obey the rein."

A much different sort of metaphor is Ezekiel's vision of God in his chariot, as laid out in chapters one and two in the book of Ezekiel.

http://bibles.datasegment.com/web/Ezekiel/1

This is the foundation document of Kabbalah, and if there is a historical connection between Kabbalah and tarot that predates Eliphas Levi, the key to the connection would lie with this card. My own feeling is that there was no such connection, and that the chariot as a symbol of both war and triumph was so universally recognized throughout ancient, medieval, and Renaissance times that it was only natural it should find its way into the trumps.

My own card is much more traditional than years, and I have to confess it's partly plagiarized. I'll see if I can create the link without my wife's help.

(catboxer)

catboxer

01-06-2002, 13:08

Here it is.

Diana

01-06-2002, 23:06

edited

jmd

02-06-2002, 21:17

Thanks for all those contributions! I am personally finding it very enriching to read and see such exquisite work on this site, from ancient sources of possible connection and personal understandings and exegesis, to rich metaphors!

I've had little time to make posts these last few days, and thought I had better re-check the Vieville illustration and the dating of the Upanishads before putting my foot in the wrong place.

Catboxer, you mention that the Vieville deck's Chariot card is not drawn by horses, but sphinxes. Personally, I just do not see those Vieville depictions as sphinxes at all, though one can, since their later depiction as such, presume that this is what they were meant to represent. The Vieville deck has many very poor representations, and I would think it more likely that those heads on horses' bodies are more human-like than horse-like either because of the artist's lack of skills - or maybe even because he may have been influenced by the Platonic view (which I doubt)!.

Thank you for providing that quote from the Vedas, or that later portion of the Vedas termed the Upanishads. From memory, I had thought that quote you gave originated around the same time, or a little later, than the time during which Plato wrote. The text I have gives the dating of the Upanishads as between 700 BCE and 300 BCE, with that specific text probably from the middle period.

I am not a philologist, and am only thereby reliant on scanty information I have, but it may very well also be the case that (in addition to assuming an antecedence for the Upanishad source) either a) both Plato and the author(s)/redactors of the Upanishad drew from a common oral tradition, b) both drew the metaphor independently, or c) the Upanishads actually drew from Plato's text or tradition. As I said, I am no philologist, and I personally have no clear view on which possibility is the correct one. Having horse-drawn chariots as part of their everyday life, the moral to be derived from the contemplation of these would very well have given rise to common metaphors or similes. In addition, one may also question whether people incarnating during that period were faced with certain common problems or tasks, despite their separate geographical locations... I am not going to argue this here, by the way, just mentioning another consideration.

In the Hermetica, there is also a textual reference to Chariot imagery, but I think that this latter is more appropriate when we get to XVIIII the Sun... someone please remind me if I forget!
_______

I too was going to mention Ezekiel's vision, and Merkabah (Chariot) mysticism, which Scholem and others certainly see, and I would have to personally agree, as proto-Kabbalah.

It is also interesting, in this connection, that one of the three central Kabbalistic text, the Zohar, also makes mention of three parts of the Soul, with some echo of similarity to Plato's nuances - the nefesh, the ruah, and the neshamah.
_________

Again, thank you Diana, Kaz and Catboxer for enriching my passion for Tarot with your posts, comments and attachments... and by the way, catboxer, you have fine drawing skills and obviously a lot of quiet perseverence, as exemplified in the various cards I have already seen!

Attached is the Conver 1760 version.

jmd

04-06-2002, 18:56

As I'm attaching other Marseilles versions, I thought I would take the opportunity to add to my previous post.

One of the importance with the depiction and Plato's text is that it may have direct Tarot iconographic influence, a claim I would think unlikely, as catboxer also mentions, for the kabbalistic reference - or, for that matter, the Upanishad reference.

Also a brief note of thank you to Kaz for adding all those Carey-Yale and Visconti-Sforza cards to the earlier other threads. It is truly wonderful to see them.

Attached is the Dodal 1701 version of the Card. It is worth noting that this version does not, unlike many decks, include the artist's initials upon the shield upon the Chariot.

jmd

04-06-2002, 18:59

And here is the 1650 Jean Noblet (I.N.) version.

Diana

04-06-2002, 19:57

edited

jmd

05-06-2002, 09:57

I find the questions which arise from the clearest of observations usually the most difficult to resolve, and those which lead to the deepest of insights.

Apart from the Camoin, Dodal and Conver decks, all of which have the two horses as blue, the Noblet and the Grimaud-Marteau decks only have one horse depicted as blue - but the reverse of each other's!

In the Noblet version, the right-hand horse (ie, the one to the left of the card is blue), whereas in the Marteau colouration, it is the left-hand one (ie, the one on the right side of the card).

I agree with Diana that the blue colouration on the Marteau deck may very well represent the Feeling life, or emotions. In the Noblet deck, however, could it represent uprightness, or the blue-blooded nobility?

The reasons for suggesting this is that, on the one hand, the left-hand side is usually connected to the emotional life, on the other, the right side is usually connected with uprightness and the path of the 'Good'.

In each case, this would also coincide with the platonic quote I used previously.

I am not suggesting that this is necessarily the case - just presenting some of my own preliminary reflections of colour and order exegesis of the card following Diana's profound question... maybe this is where other readers of this thread, who may not have contributed yet, may wish to add to our communal and independent research.

For the sake of being able to compare the cards mentioned, I've attached the Grimaud(-Marteau) version.

catboxer

05-06-2002, 13:25

Hello everybody. I've been gone for a couple of days -- well, actually, not gone, but not computering. It's finals week at school (very busy), plus I worked a music job in a local park last night which involved a couple rehearsals beforehand.

jmd, I believe your dating of the Katha Upanishad is closer than mine, as I've heard those works referred to as the "end parts" of the Vedas, which were begun much earlier. Also, I'm sure that the quote from Plato was the direct philosophical influence behind the design of this card (if there was a direct philosophical influence), because neo-Platonism exerted such a strong influence on Renaissance Italy's educated classes, and would have been prevalent at the Visconti court, especially through the personal influence of the poet-philosopher Petrarch.

I used the excerpt from the Indian text only to show the universality of the chariot metaphor. Whether there was any cross-pollination between classical Greek and Hindu cultures is a large and difficult question, best left for another day.

As for the colors of the horses drawing the chariot, which you and Diana have been discussing, as usual my tendency is to try to simplify the pictorial information rather than look for meaning in details which may or may not be coincidental. Therefore I have always noted (rather simple-mindedly) that beginning with the Marseilles decks, there is always one light-colored horse and one dark horse. (In the Italian decks which preceded the French variety, both horses were white.) I have always understood these to stand for the way of Apollo (discipline, order, repression of instinctive and/or animalistic behavior) versus that of Dionysius (release, giving in to desire, celebration of the animalistic side of human nature). I don't find much significance in finer degrees of analysis of the details in this picture, as I attribute them to either artistic license or artistic carelessness, or in other words, coincidence.

However, even though I may disagree in some respects with others posting here, it's always a pleasure to read your comments, and I've really learned a lot participating in this project.

Ready to move on?

(catboxer)

lupo138

02-01-2003, 23:17

I spent some time searching for any possible meaning of the different colours of the horses/sphinges/whatever in later decks. I did not find any. So I think it was done for mere artistic reasons.

In the R/W the Chariot is "balancing" a black sphinx on the left (seen from us) and a white one on the right. This is obviously related to the High Priestess between the two Pillars (of Mercy and Severity) and here the meaning is similar.

Please forgive me that I posted here something quite similar to my posting in the General Forum but I would like to reanimate this wonderful thread.

Kissa

03-01-2003, 02:34

Hi,

I have been wondering for a while what do the faces on the chariot driver's shoulders represent ? They remind me of ancient greek theater masks, yet I cannot see any connection to the card itself ... Were they an usual part of the costume ? Isn't the chariot driver (sorry I cannot find a better/more distinguished term to qualify this superb man ...) a soldier ?

In Grimaud and Camoin decks, Roy and Cavalier d'Epee do carry the same symbols as the Chariot on their costume shoulders. (Hadar changed the Roy's costume and used the symbol of a flower on the right shoulder and something that looks like a sun on the left one.)

Thanks for your replies and have a happy new year everybody !

Kissa

lupo138

03-01-2003, 08:02

I think the garment around the faces represent the phases of the moon. But I do not know about the faces themselves

catboxer

03-01-2003, 08:39

Kissa:

Arthur Edward Waite says, "On the shoulders of the victorious hero are supposed to be the Urim and Thummim." (Pictorial Key to the Tarot: VII -- The Chariot). These were mentioned in the Old Testament, specifically in the Torah, and although it's difficult to tell exactly what they were, they were material objects of some sort (dice? bones?) which the ancient Jews used for divination. They were apparently a sacred oracle that was part of the contents of the ark of the covenant. The on-line Catholic Encyclopedia has a very complete article about them, although it doesn't clear up much of the mystery.

Historically speaking, the provenance of the faces on the charioteer's shoulders is fairly recent. Marseilles decks show the driver wearing a cape which covers his shoulders. Starting with the 1JJ Swiss Tarot in the 1830's, he wears a little more armor than before, which includes two, small pointed shields mounted on the upper parts of his arms. The earliest deck that I'm aware of which shows the moon faces on the shoulders is Oswald Wirth's very early occult deck of 1889 (Kaplan: Encyclopedia II, p. 393) which also includes the sphinxes.

So my conclusion is that these faces and sphinxes drawing the vehicle are an aspect of the occult tarot, but not part of (please forgive the term) the historical tarot.

jmd

03-01-2003, 19:31

Though the sphinxes are undoubtedly a post-de Gebelin modification, the epaulettes with faces, as the 1701 Dodal version attached earlier shows, are not recent.

With regards to the colouration of the horses, I do think that, even though in some early decks they are similar, Plato's influence is highly probable, especially given the popularity of neo-platonism of the time.

If that is the case, then its depiction as horses or sphinxes of opposite colours, and opposite temperaments with especial regards to their moral standing, results.

catboxer

03-01-2003, 23:05

jmd:

You're right. I looked again, and there they are (the faces on the epaulettes I mean) -- on Payen's deck of 1743, Conver's of 1760, etc. And of course, they're on the illustration that accompanied de Gebelin's "Monde Primitif" in 1787.

I stand corrected.

As for their meaning...sometimes on modern decks they look as if they're wearing the expressions of Greek drama masks, as noted above -- one smiling, the other very upset. Another possibility is that they're moon faces, and this card is frequently associated with Cancer.

Diana

04-01-2003, 00:46

Kissa: I have read different interpretations of these faces on the Charioteer. They have been interpreted as the Sun and the Moon; and also as Greek drama masks.

As there will probably always be some disagreement about this, perhaps then more important than what they are, is perhaps to understand why they are there. Maybe they are a remeniscence of the previous card, the Lovers, where there was so much duality. The Charioteer still carries this duality with him, but is able to master it if he uses his powers in a sensible manner.

crystal cove

01-02-2004, 11:07

Just wondering if the faces have something in common with going into "battle".

I've noticed that the Knight of Swords has one of them on his left shoulder in all the Marseille decks that I have and in the Tarot Classic deck, the King of Swords has it too.

Rusty Neon

12-04-2004, 15:37

This has me curious as to whether there were faces on epaulettes on actual circa 17th century military uniforms or nobles' clothing.

jmd

12-04-2004, 15:51

Though I have not researched this at any length, my understanding is that these epaulettes depicting faces were not used in the 17th century, but may rather have been remnants from an earlier period, in which the armored knight may rather have had his epaulettes with either radiant Sun or other motif depicted thereon.

The epaulettes of the 17th century which I have seen depicted seem rather to reflect modern renditions, and seem of the materially 'soft' variety.

If you or anyone else find out more, it would indeed be interesting given the context of the period of production of the cards we often refer to in these threads.

Moongold

13-04-2004, 05:45

I'd like to ask what may be a distracting question. It concerns a kind of coat of arms on the front of the chariot itself. In the Conver (Lo Scarabeo) the plate has the letters V.T. and in the Fournier it has the letters S.M.

I think these could represent the artist or printer or something like that but if someone could confirm that or otherwise I'd be grateful.

In the Conver both horses are light blue and in the Fournier the horse on the right is dark blue and on the left, red .

Thanks

Diana

13-04-2004, 05:58

Moongold: The most common and accepted explanation is the one of it being the printer. The S.M. is to be found on many of the Marseille decks.

Moongold

13-04-2004, 06:35

I am very interested in the idea from Plato’s Phaedrus. The Charioteer is the Self. The winged horses which draw him are the spirit and the flesh – aspiration and desire. There is such a major conflict inherent here that the metaphor of Chariot is really appropriate. It is a the classic battle for the Soul. This fits with Diana’s suggestion as well.

In the Fournier, as in other decks mentioned here the horse on the left (facing the observer) is red and the one on the right is blue. Rusty Neon gives Marteau’s colour interpretations as being: Red = matter, the material and Blue = the spiritual. So that fits as well. What authority do these colour interpretations have and is one constrained to use them? I guess one can have the concepts of duality and conflict without adherence to colour symbols which we can't confirm were understood in the time the decks were designed. Or can we? In the Conver both horses are blue.

I wondered then if this idea fitted the left brain/right brain concept we are familiar with today but it doesn’t. The left of the brain is now understood to be responsible for logic related matters and the right for feeling related matters, to simplify this thesis completely. Well, if we look at this from the perspective of the Charioteer being the Soul, then it doesn’t fit but that is all right. Not everything fits. :)

And now I am thinking about duality. It doesn't necessarily imply separation. Aspects of our humanity merge all the time until they become integrated. It is the separation which can cause psychological and spiritual problems. Disassociation. But now I am wandering.

This is a great discussion.

Rusty Neon

13-04-2004, 07:43

Originally posted by Moongold
I'd like to ask what may be a distracting question. It concerns a kind of coat of arms on the front of the chariot itself. In the Conver (Lo Scarabeo) the plate has the letters V.T. and in the Fournier it has the letters S.M.

Moongold, this is another of the Marseilles mysteries.

In the 1760 Conver, the initials are V.T. In the 1930 Marteau deck, the initials are S.M.

Does anyone know whether any tarot deck pre-dating the 1930 Marteau used the initials S.M. on the Chariot card?

If S.M. is publisher's, printer's or engraver's initials, what was the name of the publisher, printer or engraver? And which deck?

We do know that the publisher of the Marteau deck was Grimaud and that the deck was created by Paul Marteau.

The explanations I've read include the following: S.M. for Saul Marteau (i.e., Paul Marteau); S.M. for Sa Majesté; or, more esoterically, S.M. for Sulphur and Mercury.

jmd

13-04-2004, 12:12

It seems reasonably certain that the initials stand for the engraver or illustrator. The Jean Noblet, for example, has 'I. N.' ('I' & 'J' being equivalent); the 1718 François Heri has 'F.H.', though another, attributed to him due to the two of Cups inscription, has 'H.B.'; Joannes Pelagius Mayer's has 'I.P.M.'; Claude Burdel's has 'C.B.'; Charles Madigne has 'C.M.' (though in Greek lettering); C. F. Carrajat's has 'A.C.Z' ... oops... but I hope to have made a point.

I first posited that the 'S.M.' on the Grimaud stood for 'Saul Marteau' based precisely on the observations just made above. 'Saul' and 'Paul' having, of cause, close linkage. Having the possibility of thus both semi-hiding his own name, yet revealing the same, would have surely been sufficient motivation.

All in all, I suspect that whereas the 2 of Cups and, even more so, the 2 of Coins, were used by the printer or publisher, the Chariot's frontal shield was used by the artist to there engrave, if at all, his or her initials.

Rusty Neon

13-04-2004, 12:27

Any idea what V.T. in the 1760 Conver would stand for?

jmd

13-04-2004, 12:53

I do not recall coming across any names which would correspond to 'V.T.', but suspect that if the engraver, then his or her only remnant on the deck is simply this small memorendum...

If you or anyone else comes across some thing more definite, I would certainly rejoice :)

Moongold

15-04-2004, 06:09

I thought it would be interesting to know something of the background to the Chariot as a symbol in understanding this card. These are some notes I made for my own benefit. As above so below? I love that phrase and maybe the heavens would be a good place to start.

The constellation, Auriga, is the one identified with the Chariot. It is an ancient Northern Hemisphere constellation featuring one of the brightest stars in the heavens: Capella.

The constellation itself is believed to have been identified first in Babylonian times but Auriga appears in Chinese, Greek, and Egyptian and Roman mythology. There are various myths associated with the Chariot. Auriga is usually pictured as a charioteer; the youth Auriga wields a whip in one hand and holds a goat (Capella) and her two kids in the other. Capella means "small goat". A previous name of this star was Amalthea, which was the goat that suckled the baby Zeus. There are many ancient stories relating to the star, as every culture in antiquity found a place for this bright companion to Taurus, its closest neighbour.

Auriga is between Orion and Taurus but much higher in the sky, Capella, a very bright star is the mid point of the constellation. There is an image of the constellation attached for your information.

The closeness of the Auriga or the Chariot to Taurus is very interesting indeed because of its association with Mithraism. The heavens play out this wonderful story. To unravel it here would take pages and I’ll spare you that, although it seems to be a fascinating story. Suffice to say that Auriga represents the element of Fire. With Capella, the Shepherd’s light, Auriga is a motivator to climb mountains. He is the successful hero and the Good Shepherd. He is associated with the ethos I influence ….I comfort…..I belove

In terms of the earthly use of chariots they are believed to have first been used by the Hyskos people to invade Egypt in 1710BC. The Hyskos have sometimes been depicted as a community of shepherds but the reality is probably far away from this. Alexander the Great also used chariots as instruments of War and eventually they were commonly used for this purpose. They are seen as vehicles to carry people on noble missions.

These notes are far from complete but I thought it would be of interest to people when considering VII Chariot overall. One of the most influential books of my youth was The Charioteer by Mary Reanault, which narrates a fictional dilemma of the kind discussed in Phaedrus.

Flornoy

15-04-2004, 06:53

Originally posted by jmd
I do not recall coming across any names which would correspond to 'V.T.', but suspect that if the engraver, then his or her only remnant on the deck is simply this small memorendum...

Versus (latin: according to) T, as S.M. means Selon (french: according to) Marteau. We don't know who T was, but it indicates that Conver himself did not do the engraving -

Amitiés, JC Flornoy

Rusty Neon

31-08-2004, 09:34

Originally posted by jmd
Here is a 'short' quote from the Phaedrus (Great Books of the Western World, p124 §246)In the Republic, Plato mentions that there are three parts to the soul: Reason, or the thinking part; Emotions, or the feeling part; and the appetitive body (or the Willing part)

The quote from Phaedrus (also favoured by Williams in _The Renaissance Tarot_) is indeed interesting. That chariot is a fascinating choice for an explanation of the tarot Chariot card. I am especially intrigued by the passage about one of the two horses being infirm. The horse, on the right hand side of the 1760 Conver Chariot card [charioteer's left hand side], is arguably missing an eye.

In terms of another possible source for the chariot/horses symbolism, Sédillot mentions the horse-drawn chariot of the goddess Juno, from Roman mythology (the Roman equivalent of Hera, Zeus's wife). So far, googling (google.com) hasn't come up with the number of horses she had or how it may relate to the tarot Chariot concept.

Rusty Neon

31-08-2004, 10:25

http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/chariot

In his article on the tarot Chariot iconography on tarot.com, Bob O'Neill mentions the symbolism of the chariot of the god Mars.

One of the links he gives to the chariot of Mars bears an uncanny resemblance to the TdM Chariot, including the sideways wheels. ;)

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~jpaehlke/varia4.jpg
No date given for this image; the style looks relatively modern. Perhaps it was inspired by the TdM Chariot, rather than vice versa.

Shalott

31-08-2004, 12:54

Yet another tangential question:
On the 1760 Conver jmd posted a while back, and then again on the Camoin, the horse on my right hand side is winking. Whassup with that? :)

Rusty Neon

31-08-2004, 12:57

Shalott, I thought the horse had a bad eye. See my second to last post above.

Shalott

31-08-2004, 12:59

Ohhh sorry I just skimmed thru to see if this had been addressed and obviously missed it. ;) <---- the horse

Rusty Neon

31-08-2004, 13:32

Shalott ... There's no reason why it couldn't be a wink either.

By the way, I looked up the Chariot card write-up in Jodorowsky's book. On the question of the horses' eyes in the Jodo-Camoin Chariot card, he writes this at p. 176:

" ... One could identify the horse on our right, with its long eyelashes and its [one] closed eye, as the feminine element and the other horse as masculine. The two complementary energies - masculine and feminine - realize a unity. If, in appearance, their front hooves go off in different directions, the movement of their head and their look is common: there is a union of opposites which operates from the viewpoint of energies. The horses carry on their chest the symbol of alchemical gold: instinctive animal strength here acts in full consciousness."

Jodo-Camoin card images:
http://www.camoin.com/tarot_fr/regarder_tmt/voir_tmt.asp

Shalott

31-08-2004, 16:11

I keep meaning to give my Camoin a test run.

I was also wanting to ask about the significance of the wink or missing eye but was running out of my little work area like seconds later. If it's the feminine, could it represent a sterotypical (or just plain old) view of the feminine, being a rather "coy" action? One thought that popped into my head was, if it's a missing eye, could be a battle wound?

This book by Jodo is only in French right now, right? Sigh.

Diana

12-09-2004, 01:42

Originally posted by Flornoy
Versus (latin: according to) T, as S.M. means Selon (french: according to) Marteau. We don't know who T was, but it indicates that Conver himself did not do the engraving -

Amitiés, JC Flornoy

Jean-Claude: Alain Bocher says that the M is of course Paul Marteau, but that the S is Jean-Marie Simon.

Abrac

25-08-2005, 09:02

Regarding the faces on the shoulders of the Charioteer, Janus is an interesting possibility. Quoting from The Complete Dictionary Of Symbols, Jack Tresidder: General Editor, Chronicle Books, “The god of entrances and exits, his image was set up by the principal door of a building, as well as on jani, the great triumphal arches and other ceremonial gateways. Janus had two faces so that he could look ahead and behind.”…”He was associated with wisdom because he knew the past and could see the future.” And from the New Oxford American Dictionary, “Janus: An ancient Italian deity, guardian of doorways and gates and protector of the state in times of war.”

fools_fool

Fulgour

05-12-2006, 05:01

Any idea what V.T. in the 1760 Conver would stand for?Maybe it stands for "Vrai Tzigane" in homage..?

le pendu

05-12-2006, 09:47

Maybe it stands for "Vrai Tzigane" in homage..?

If it was an homage it should probably read "P.M." for Pierre Madenie, or "F.C." for François Chosson, or some other early 18th century cardmaker who Conver simply copied.

Fulgour

06-12-2006, 00:44

Homage is as Homage does!

Sebastien Michel

16-12-2006, 06:19

Jean-Claude: Alain Bocher says that the M is of course Paul Marteau, but that the S is Jean-Marie Simon.

Some historical research can also talk about L'Ordre de Saint-Michel (S.M.).

This award was given to the heroic people who fight for their country in the middle age.

Saint-Michel was an angel. The award depicted his victory against a dragon and a necklace surrounded the image. If you take a look on the Chariot you can probably (not certainly) see the necklace around the SM.

- L'archange est de plus réputé sauver des périls les adolescents démunis qui affluent vers le Mont -

The angel was known for saving the lost and poor teens who was coming to him.

So it's maybe not a coincidence that Le Chariot came after L'Amoureux !!

But if it's real, its the Paul Marteau vision because the SM is mainly related to him.

Sebastien

stella01904

16-12-2006, 07:18

This book by Jodo is only in French right now, right? Sigh.
Mine's in Spanish: La Via Del Tarot.

venicebard

19-12-2006, 07:59

Some historical research can also talk about L'Ordre de Saint-Michel (S.M.).

This award was given to the heroic people who fight for their country in the middle age.

Saint-Michel was an angel. The award depicted his victory against a dragon and a necklace surrounded the image. If you take a look on the Chariot you can probably (not certainly) see the necklace around the SM.

- L'archange est de plus réputé sauver des périls les adolescents démunis qui affluent vers le Mont -

The angel was known for saving the lost and poor teens who was coming to him.

So it's maybe not a coincidence that Le Chariot came after L'Amoureux !!

But if it's real, its the Paul Marteau vision because the SM is mainly related to him.

Sebastien
This is fascinating, the first serious attempt to explain the “SM” that I, at any rate, have seen. It certainly fits my understanding of this image. For the tree-letter whose bardic numeration was 7 is peith the water elder (or guelder rose, or whitten), an obscure ‘tree’ (possibly bush cranberry and therefore linked to the crane, from whose skin the bag was made that holds the alphabet) to mask its importance as a letter, since its rune (P) shows the rune-bag (or dice-cup) on its side—having cast runes in divination, the speech of the gods—and since it is in square Hebrew a mouth speaking and in Phoenician an ear hearing. For 7 is the number of steps (in Masonry), gates, or ‘palaces’ (in Judaic Hekhalot) of initiation, symbolized by the Chariot—the Throne-chariot or Merkabah of Judaic Gnosticism, comparable to the ‘seat of the poet’ in Keltic Britain and Ireland, chariot-and-charioteer having been a symbol of initiation since deep antiquity (in the Baghavad Gita, for instance, and in Plato). And since this symbol’s importance resides in the charioteer’s control of his beast (self-restraint) and choice of his route (self-responsibility), the “S.M.” meaning Saint-Michel makes rather good sense: the slain dragon or serpent represents power over the beast, and the route itself (which he masters by controlling the beast) is serpentine. The only objection I could see would be that the dragon was the totem of Arthur, revered by those very Gnostics I claim devised Tarot de Marseille, namely Languedoc-linked insular Keltic bards who hearkened back to the Irish-and-Welsh church of earlier times (or their Languedoc counterparts). Perhaps this is to be explained by the saint, say, eating the heart of the dragon he has slain thereby becoming it (since you ‘are’ what you eat), or not.

My earliest explanation for “S.M”—whose presence on the card may be of great importance, based on the Marteau coloration of Grimaud TdM being the only completely correct one in my opinion (meaning he may have been privy to a genuine tradition concerning tarot)—was that they are the two (of three) ‘mother’ letters in Sefer Yetzirah or Merkabah tradition that represent the fundamental polarity head-versus-loins, bridged or balanced by the third ‘mother’ alef, the trunk or torso. Since the trumps themselves are the alphabet springing forth from alef (bardic numerical order [H]-A-E-I-O-B-M-P-F-K-G-T-D-N-L-R-S-U-Q-Y-St-Aa, Aa being teyt-theta, the equator) whilst court cards number 16, S-shin’s bardic number, and pips 40, M-mem’s Hebrew number, the ‘initiation’ represented by the “S.M” would be that the tarot has an essentially threefold structure, trumps A being the bridge between courts S—external reality, or what results from the head’s behavior—and pips M—internal reality, or what results from the behavior of the loins.

Tarot also, of course, has a fivefold structure related directly to the game itself, namely five suits of which one is ‘trump’ permanently (the twofold division into ‘majors’ and ‘minors’ being spurious, IMO), and indeed 5 and 3 symbolize pillars Boaz and Jachin in the bardic scheme (broken front outer column versus intact rear inner column of the human ‘Temple’), which are the doorposts flanking one’s ‘entrance within’. But of these, 5 invokes the hand, nature’s handiwork, and it is thus 3, the Jachin column, that represents inner gnosis—the 3 parts of the conscious self, or doer-thinker-knower (Son, Holy Spirit, Father), and of reality itself: duration-less instant of creation or action (Brahma), finite durations in thought (Vishnu), and the eternity of the truth apprehended by knowledge (Shiva).

Thee three ‘mothers’ A-S-M derive from the Word or Logos, AUM, which are eagle-chick-owl in Egyptian (only three bird-letters), the U or w (Logos’s middle term or ‘core’) being shushed by sh in Semitic (S in other alphabets) to hide the secret (but restored to the mix as Greek omega). Its proper pronunciation, by the way, is not the Tibetans’ ‘Om’ with but half the vowel spectrum but IAOM—beginning with smile ‘ee’ then progressing through the whole vowel spectrum (the ‘alpha and omega’) to end in sweetness, ‘mm’, which is muin the vine or grape. The ‘I’ stands for the body or earth (the part of their faith Tibetans have lost, i.e. its homeland). [Though this is knowledge that was lost in Judaism itself, they are the ‘mothers’ because M, as mem-sofit (the Ark), is Ezekiel’s 1st wheel (the Monad, centered atop standing Adam Qadmon or Upright Sentience and going from up to out to down to in to up) and bears S-shin (a crown), the 2nd wheel (the surroundings, centered atop Adam when seated in meditation), in its ‘belly’, which in turn bears A-alef (action itself), the 3rd wheel (zodiac of torso, centered on the heart) in its ‘belly’, which in turn bears the 4th—‘I’, or the opening at the bottom of intermediate mem—in its ‘belly’, the 4th being the womb, specifically the womb of time (the present instant or physical universe). These four wheels are the four worlds known to Kabbalah even today.]

Sorry to be so long-winded. All this relates to Masonic tradition, by the way (especially the two pillars).

jmd

22-12-2006, 20:16

So it seems that at least in this thread, there are no takers for the 'S' and 'M' to stand for the alchemical Sulphur and Mercury!?

I realise that this has been a common attribution to the letters for some time, and in various writings, but was surprised to come across it in a Lyon-based PhD thesis last year as something of merit.

euripides

27-02-2007, 06:33

Well having just stumbled across Basilius Valentinus 1604 Truimphal Chariot of Antimony... and now this note on that treatise:

Valentine's book was edited and published by Johann Thölde in Nürnberg in 1676 (note) and contains treatises by several famous alchemists, including the Benedictine alchemist Basil Valentine, who wrote the featured selection. The frontispiece shows Mercury, Antimony, and other archetypal powers parading through the countryside in a chariot while an angel looks on from above. The word "triumphal" refers not to the conquering of anything but rather to an ancient pagan procession in which people dressed up in costumes depicting the archetypal forces in nature were carried through the streets in a chariot. For many alchemists, especially Isaac Newton, the metal Antimony became a more potent form of Mercury with which to work transformation. They were fascinated by a property of Antimony to form a cyrstalline star (the Star Regulus) under certain conditions. For alchemists, of course, that symbolized the quintessence of matter.

I think yes, I'd go with sulphur and mercury.

I came across something about the triplicity of nature:
http://www.alchemywebsite.com/yarkintr.html

Mercury represents Body, Sulphur the Soul - so the charioteer must be Salt, the Spirit?

and salt forms a star - the star 17, the chariot 7...

euripides

27-02-2007, 09:03

The Sphinx isn't just any sphinx - its an androsphinx, the head of a man on a lion's body, so their use on the Chariot card makes a lot of sense considering various layers of meaning.

The ideas about the Ark of the Covenant are also interesting as I can see parallels between the Sphinx as guardians of the Tree of Life and Cherubim in the Judiac equivalent of the same.

venicebard

28-02-2007, 06:32

So it seems that at least in this thread, there are no takers for the 'S' and 'M' to stand for the alchemical Sulphur and Mercury!?Yes, certainly this could be so, for they can stand for more than one thing, as long as those things are related pairs -- so who knows, perhaps this meaning is also related to the meaning Saint Michel. For there is certainly nothing to gainsay mother letters S and M, shin and mem, standing for sulphur and mercury: they are fire and water (in Sefer Yetzirah), after all, sulphur being fiery and mercury often being called 'our water'. Indeed chemically they are opposite each other (perfect complements -2 and +2 valence, respectively, hence their conjoined state, cinnabar), whereas the remaining member of the triumvirate, salt, is the bridge between alkaline/mercurial and acid/sulphuric, being conjoined sodium (alkaline) and chlorine (acid).
I came across something about the triplicity of nature:
http://www.alchemywebsite.com/yarkintr.html

Mercury represents Body, Sulphur the Soul - so the charioteer must be Salt, the Spirit?That site you cite says to Rosicrucians it was mercury/soul, sulphur/body and salt/spirit, but should not salt be body and sulphur spirit? Certainly this is the case chemically. The soul I take to be the form of the breath-form (a living human form), which is combined with its breath or spirit at birth and for the duration of the life of the body.
. . . and salt forms a star - the star 17, the chariot 7...Thanx for this brief comment, as it triggered in me the discovery of the fact that 17's being 5th-from-the-end connects it to the 5-pointed star. (What 'm I, dense? I should have noticed this decades ago.)
The Sphinx isn't just any sphinx - its an androsphinx, the head of a man on a lion's body . . . Has anyone but me noticed that the head on the Egyptian (carved) Sphinx is too small, aesthetically, giving the appearance of having been originally a complete recumbent lion that was redone into an androsphinx after water erosion (which dates it, according to geologists, several thousand years earlier than archeologists allow) had reduced the head disproportionately to the body (due to the heads smaller volume to begin with)?
There again is a connection with duality - when Zeus seduced Leda, only one of her twin offspring from each egg was considered divine, the other mortal.These would have been the twin gods of the bardic year, surely: the divine hero or oak-king of the waxing year (winter-spring) and the all-too-human holly-king or satiric anti-hero of the waning year (summer-fall).

Certainly I have suggested before that these twin rulers-of-the-year were what the horses drawing the chariot symbolize, in the mind of the antihero that is, since VII LeChariot occurs at sagittary (being peith the water elder or dwarf elder), the approach to winter solstice, where the antihero will be unseated once again by the waxing year. [In this trump they show an antihero that is drawn by fear of being deposed and can, through P's (the chariot-symbol's) poetic initiation, remain harnessed, yielding the 12-month calendar or zodiac. The twin forms in XV LeDiable, however, show the antihero chained to the thought of the twins: in its position as 13th month of the 13-month tree-calendar, R or 15 shows fear of duality succeeding P or 7 (harnessed duality) prior to winter solstice, whereas in its proper or 'yogic' position as libra, the bottom-most point of the Cauldron of doubles or stops (R being rolled in Semitic, a repeated or weak stop), it is that fear when focused on (dwelt on, being the direction down) in meditation, thus showing the way mortals can overcome their fear -- by facing it, rather than rationalizing or masking it. I'll shut up now.]

TenOfSwords

22-03-2007, 06:58

I think that 'Chariot' should be interpreted as derived from Cherub in reference to 'the throne of god' (this is where the word comes from) a la ezekiels vision and the card as a direct reference to the biblical lecture on the prince of Tyre who, even though he ruled a city as splendid as the throne of god (chariot/cherub) still had misfortune because he wasn't faithfull... Seem to be an appropriate moral lesson for the ruling class in northern Italy on humility in spite of temporal splendour. Fit's quite well with the rather odd representation of a chariot in the actual cards (looks like some of the renditions of Ezekiels vision though).

:)

Teheuti

22-03-2007, 07:36

I think that 'Chariot' should be interpreted as derived from Cherub in reference to 'the throne of god' (this is where the word comes from)
I found completely different etymologies (Am. Heritage Dictionary):
CHARIOT:
Suffixed form of Indo-European Word Root *kNs-o-.
a. CAR, CAREER, CARGO, CARICATURE, CARIOLE, CARK, CAROCHE, CARRY, CHARGE, CHARIOT; DISCHARGE, from Latin carrus, a two-wheeled wagon;
b. CARPENTER, from Latin carpentum, a two-wheeled carriage. Both a and b from Gaulish carros, a wagon, cart.

CHERUB
From the Semitic Word root: krb
To praise. Common Semitic root, with West Semitic metathesized variant brk.
CHERUB, from Hebrew kMrûb, cherub; akin to Akkadian kar"bu, to praise, bless. Compare also brk.
brk
West Semitic, to bless. Probably a metathesized variant of krb.
1 BARUCH, from Hebrew b"rûk, blessed, passive participle of *b"rak, to bless (only attested in derived stem b*r*k, to bless).
2 BROKER, from Arabic al-barka, colloquial variant of al-baraka, the blessing, divine favor, gift, from b"raka, to bless. Compare krb.

Or, did I misunderstand what you meant by "comes from"?

Mary

TenOfSwords

22-03-2007, 08:13

I found completely different etymologies (Am. Heritage Dictionary):
CHARIOT:
Suffixed form of Indo-European Word Root *kNs-o-.
a. CAR, CAREER, CARGO, CARICATURE, CARIOLE, CARK, CAROCHE, CARRY, CHARGE, CHARIOT; DISCHARGE, from Latin carrus, a two-wheeled wagon;
b. CARPENTER, from Latin carpentum, a two-wheeled carriage. Both a and b from Gaulish carros, a wagon, cart.

CHERUB
From the Semitic Word root: krb
To praise. Common Semitic root, with West Semitic metathesized variant brk.
CHERUB, from Hebrew kMrûb, cherub; akin to Akkadian kar"bu, to praise, bless. Compare also brk.
brk
West Semitic, to bless. Probably a metathesized variant of krb.
1 BARUCH, from Hebrew b"rûk, blessed, passive participle of *b"rak, to bless (only attested in derived stem b*r*k, to bless).
2 BROKER, from Arabic al-barka, colloquial variant of al-baraka, the blessing, divine favor, gift, from b"raka, to bless. Compare krb.

Or, did I misunderstand what you meant by "comes from"?

Mary

I'll refrain from addressing the actual etymology of the words in an akademic sense because I picked up the references between the words in the Catholic Encyclopedia and as far as I know the connection used there doesn't necessarily have anything to do with 'factual truth' or the view of contemporary linguistics. They could have made it up just to prove some point for all I know... The point is that the view of the encyclopedia editors on biblical issues is highly likely the same as it would have been in northern Italy's academic circles round the appearance of the particular card considering the involvement of the priesthood and the church as such. Doesn't seem to me to be an issue that would invite any dissent or conflicting interpretations.

I'll see if I can find the specific linkings again (might take a couple of days) and the actual rationale behind it. Never delete bookmarks prematurely...

A bit of reservation on my usage of 'comes from' because it might actually be an associative linking done by one of the church fathers or apologists or similar more than the word being derived directly. Will know when I find it again.

Teheuti

22-03-2007, 08:27

I found the entry you are referring to. As I understand it, the connection is being made between Cherub (kirubu) and Merkeba. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

"The word cherub (cherubim is the Hebrew masculine plural) is a word borrowed from the Assyrian kirubu, from karâbu, "to be near", hence it means near ones, familiars, personal servants, bodyguards, courtiers. It was commonly used of those heavenly spirits, who closely surrounded the Majesty of God and paid Him intimate service. Hence it came to mean as much as "Angelic Spirit". (The change from K of Karâbu, to K of Kirub is nothing unusual in Assyrian. The word has been brought into connection with the Egyptian Xefer by metathesis from Xeref=K-r-bh.) A similar metathesis and play upon sound undoubtedly exists between Kerub and Rakab, "to ride", and Merkeba, "chariot". The late Jewish explanation by analogy between Kerub and Rekûb, "a youth", seems worthless. The word ought to be pronounced in English qerub and querubim, and not with a soft ch."
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03646c.htm

Mary

Teheuti

22-03-2007, 08:36

Here's from another site:

"The idea of cherubim as the chariot of God seems indicated in I Paralip. 18, where David gives gold for the Temple cherubim, who are described as 'the Chariot', not, probably, because they had the outward shape of a vehicle, but because the Temple cherubim symbolized the swift-winged living thrones upon which the Almighty journeys through the heavens."
- J.P. Arendzen, "Cheribim", Catholic Encyclopedia

The Imagery of the Cherubim
"...The cherubim are the living chariots or carriers of God when appearing to men, in winged human form with the faces of lion, ox, man and eagle. They never come close to men."
- Jim A. Cornwell, "The Mystery of Ezekiel's and John's Vision OT and NT - Cherubim " (from The Alpha and the Omega

http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/terms.html

le pendu

22-03-2007, 08:43

The relationship of the Chariot and Cherubs just came up recently in discussing the Jacques Vieville tarot in this thread:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=75786

eugim

28-02-2008, 20:50

Hi JMD !

Once more your dart matched Bull s eye ...
You pointed showing one of the true certain philosophy influence present at the bird of Tarot.
Platonic ideas were the base of the mind concept of that time.
And once more I say kabalah was after Tarot and based on Plato s concept./Alexandria School
So I think Kabalah is not in Tarot,Tarot is in the Kabalah
I agree with JMD that the Chariot is a Soul Image concept.
The man is not riding it.Both hands aren t
I think the man show us that we must guide our Chariot from the higher plane of the Soul.
If we ride it trying to put order between both horses from this fisical plane surely we will lost.

My respect to all of You

venicebard

04-03-2008, 08:21

And once more I say kabalah was after Tarot and based on Plato s concept./Alexandria School
So I think Kabalah is not in Tarot,Tarot is in the Kabalah Tarot was at the earliest a 14th-century phenomenon, n'est ce pas? Kabbalah proper began in late 12th-century Provence-Languedoc and spread to 13th-century Spain.
I agree with JMD that the Chariot is a Soul Image concept.
The man is not riding it.Both hands aren t
I think the man show us that we must guide our Chariot from the higher plane of the Soul.I would still say it symbolizes the opposites 'dominion and servitude' (driver verses horses), which tells us that this pair of opposites attaches to (Sefer Yetzirah's double letter) peh, since it is P-peith-whitten that is numbered 7 in the scheme that spawned tarot (according to me and no-one else yet), namely the bardic, which came to the Continent from Britain in time to interact with the Judaic mystery schools that flourished in Provence-Languedoc before the Albigensian Crusade made a blood-swamp thereof.

Plato is definitely in Kabbalah, but mainly because both deal in the Truth, which does not change.

Shalom.

eugim

04-03-2008, 15:39

Tarot was at the earliest a 14th-century phenomenon, n'est ce pas? Kabbalah proper began in late 12th-century Provence-Languedoc and spread to 13th-century Spain.
I would still say it symbolizes the opposites 'dominion and servitude' (driver verses horses), which tells us that this pair of opposites attaches to (Sefer Yetzirah's double letter) peh, since it is P-peith-whitten that is numbered 7 in the scheme that spawned tarot (according to me and no-one else yet), namely the bardic, which came to the Continent from Britain in time to interact with the Judaic mystery schools that flourished in Provence-Languedoc before the Albigensian Crusade made a blood-swamp thereof.

Plato is definitely in Kabbalah, but mainly because both deal in the Truth, which does not change.

Shalom.

Hello Venicebard:
1-Kabbalah undoubtedly began as early you said but born in Spain and then spread as far Medici Court (For example Pico della Mirandola who gave too much impulse for traduction of Kabbalah texts )
But Pico Christianized Kabbalah as clearly show Gershom Scholem.
That why I said Kabbalah was after and may be (and in that case excuse me) I didn t mention Eliphas Levi who was the first that tried it (also I think misunderstood Jewish Kabbalah,/both Pico and Levi talked about CABALA.)
So Levi s attempt was after Tarot Origin.( Dogme et Rituel de la Haute Magie /1854).
2-When close 1490 Roman Catholic Church practically order to the King of Spain " CLEAN SPAIN OF JEWS " (NO MATTER HOW) they change their names (the rest alive) and the others went elsewhere,also to the Provence the land of the language of the goose,and there along with Muslims interchanged many common topics,so result a very rich intermix philosophy.
3-Precisely at early times Early Christian,Jews and Muslims with open minds found in Alejandria School a common ARCHETYPE of Divine Search
Then they each return and reformulates "the way to looks for" without change the esence.But later those who didn t saw that common source altered the purpose.
Was may be the last serious attempt to cross " MIND LIGHTS " and sadly already lost.
So one can t be surprise if discover a common trunk of meanings along with Chinese or Indian or if you want Thuatha de Dannan because they all are talking about THE ONE.
4-I have Irish and English blood from my mother side (Cormack and Tippin surname) but I really Venicebardic I haven t found yet any evidence of a Tarot origin connection with the source you mentioned.
5-The attempt to relate Hebrew Alphabet to Tarot was an error of deep misunderstood of serious deep irrespect concept of Kabbala,but "works " for Levi.
In his work I mentioned he made such a irrespect melange with Tarot cards,value and meanings of the Hebrew letters...
Again Venicebard hear Gershom Scholem about this topic.
6-We can find Plato thoughts even before Plato because Plato as others saw the common points of religion meeting.(THE ONE FIRE )
Plato was in Egipt and really knew about the ancient Hermetic philosophy.
And here I bring here who for me was the man that s tried for the very first time to makes a compilation of all of that Alejandria sources :MARSILIO FICINO
7-As a hunter of the truly truth as you seems,may be you are agree that each culture attempted to create a IDEOGRAPHIC and/or ICONOGRAPHIC that s try to on one side encode meaning for protection from outside and also and not less from inside curious which haven t enough inside training.
8-Respect of your reply of my point of view of LE CHARIOT you explain or "decreed " your view of the card

I would still say it symbolizes the opposites 'dominion and servitude' (driver verses horses), ...

Well Venicebard, I m from Alchemy "INNER ALCHEMY" side and my vision of Tarot it just "MINE" not yours or that you want to decreed and after all I don t say the Card " Symbolizes" etc...
How much knowledge you FOUND for say " it symbolizes "
Don t you think that may be just may be,symbol meaning comes after a deep insight about the images cards of course with a very heavy background of historic image evidence of the decks ?
Then we could be have more qualification to say " that card means ..."

Others believe that Tarot link with Templars with the true Cabala (Not Levi nor Papus etc. ),others in Kabbalah,Sufi,Hindu Budism,Chinese and after Japanese Budism Zen etc...

And the others which didn t made the minimal effort to try to ask themselves what s Tdm all about create/believe in Osho deck,Menopausia and erratic feminine Orgasm deck,I can t stand my face on the mirror at morning Deck,My Love is gone Deck,My bore neighboring talks very frequently with my wife Deck Etc.

So you when say " THAT IS " the card meaning looks somewhat too much EASY conclusions ...

9-Here at the forum there are people like LES MARSEILLES,JMD and LE PENDV without any EASY conclusions.
They work " too much " to support with historic evidence what they say.
I said historic evidence not an invented Egg in a deck ( I honestly pray that isn t one of him,Oh Lord ! /To much cost ?)
Well Nine / VIIII is a insightfull number,LE HERMIT .
Sincerelly I hope we FIND HIM./ I didn t yet .

MY POINT OF VIEW:

BECAUSE ALL IS IN ALL

ONE SOUL/ ANIMA MUNDI

Let s the sunshine goes TROUGH ...

Rest in Peace ... (Friendly Said)

Eugim

kwaw

14-03-2008, 04:28

"5. The rider therefore is carried about in this chariot, and throne of living creatures that are all eye, or in other words, by every particular soul that is once become his throne or seat, and is perfect eye and light, he having placed himself thereon, and governing it with the reins of the Spirit, and directing her in the way, as he sees best. For as the spiritual living creatures went not whither they were willing of themselves, but at the discretion and pleasure of him that sat upon them, and directed the way: thus also does the same person hold the reins, drive and conduct the soul by his Spirit. Thus do they take their course even in heaven, not when they please, or as they are inclined themselves. And when this body is thrown off, he still manages the reins, and orders every motion of the soul in wisdom. And again, whenever he pleases, he comes into the body, and into the thoughts of the heart; and when he pleases, into the ends of the earth, and discovers to her mysteries without a veil. O, the noble and good, and only true Charioteer! Thus too shall our very bodies be honoured in the resurrection, the soul being thus glorified, and mixing with the Spirit in this present life. But the soul which still lives in the darkness of sin, belongs not to the body of light; but is indeed the body of darkness, and still sides with the faction of darkness. They only that have the life of light, that is, the power of the Holy Spirit, belong to the light. The soul in itself is a creature intellectual, and beautiful, and great, and wonderful, and a noble likeness and image of God. And it was through the transgression, that the affections of darkness gained entrance into it."

The Spiritual Homilies of the hermit St. Macarius of Egypt, lamp of the desert.

http://www.monachos.net/library/Macarius_of_Egypt,_Spiritual_Homilies_1-5

venicebard

16-03-2008, 04:03

Hello Venicebard:
1-Kabbalah undoubtedly began as early you said but born in Spain You have been misinformed: the earliest known school of Kabbalah was that of R. Isaac the Blind, in the Narbonne region (Languedoc area, now the south of France). Also, the book Bahir, earliest Kabbalistic (published) text, came out in Provence (between 1150 and 1200, if memory serves). It then spread to Gerona in Spain and grew strong in Catalonia and Castile during the 13th century, leading to the Zohar.
Was may be the last serious attempt to cross " MIND LIGHTS " and sadly already lost. If you are talking about Kabbalah, yes, the core of it was lost (I think I have salvaged it, but that is another matter).
So one can t be surprise if discover a common trunk of meanings along with Chinese or Indian or if you want Thuatha de Dannan because they all are talking about THE ONE.In principle, I agree. But the evidence is overwhelming that an interchange of ideas took place between bardic tradition (from Ireland and Wales) and Judaic Merkavah ('mysticism') in Provence-Languedoc during the 12th century (hayday of the Troubadours), else I would not insist on it.
4-I have Irish and English blood from my mother side (Cormack and Tippin surname) but I really Venicebardic I haven t found yet any evidence of a Tarot origin connection with the source you mentioned.If you put the Irish tree-letters beside tarot trumps by bardic numbering (H=0, 1-16 = A E I O B M P F K G T D N L R S, [reconstructed:] 17-21 = U Q[KK] II[mistletoe] 'Z'[SS] AA[palm, =teyt/theta]), you will see that the correspondence is not the haphazard one of "choose alef to be Fool or Bateleur and go from there."
5-The attempt to relate Hebrew Alphabet to Tarot was an error of deep misunderstood of serious deep irrespect concept of Kabbala,but "works " for Levi.To do so by Hebrew numbering certainly is. (Time is up on computer: I'll be back in a moment.)