Tarot and Holy Grail

[Kissa]

Hi all,

I am a bit confused. I was reading two threads from the table of content and to my greatest surprise, I understand them as in contradiction with each other. As Diana wrote both of them, I would hate her to think I put in question what she says (especially when she did such a great job contacting and translating Hadar's response !!!). Diana, please, don't assume that I am teasing you again, I really enjoy reading and studying about what you write !

I would be grateful to anybody who can explain what is the relationship between Tarot de Marseille and the Quest for the Holy Grail. Here are the reasons for my next sleepless night ;-) :

Originally posted by Diana
This thread Véritable Tarot de Marseille (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?threadid=7515) in the Tarot Decks section, raised the question as to why Kris Hadar put the date 1181 on the 2 of Deniers in his version of the Marseille Tarot. I e-mailed him to ask him if he could explain this date.

[Hadar's response :]
" (...) The destruction of the Oc region began in the year 1181, when following a meeting of pontiffs of the Church, it was decided to control both the world and people's spiritual knowledge through the invention of a myth: the quest for the Grail. Philip of Flandres was mandated to carry out this imposture. He went to meet Chretien de Troyes who, it must not be forgotten… was a cleric, thus an instrument of the Church. It is at that time that the Courtoisie, expressed by the Tarot, was ignobly attacked. What a strange date which marks the beginning of the assassination of thousands in the name of God and at the same time safeguards knowledge by this magnificent game which is Tarot, inheritance of the Oc region's spiritual culture (...)"
extract from : http://www.tarotforum.net/newreply.php?action=newreply&postid=84211


And here is the other extract that confuses me :

Originally posted by Diana
This is a translation of a chapter of a book in French, by Georges Colleuil (Tarot l'Enchanteur), who is one of the finest Tarot of Marseilles scholars in France today.

TRANSFORMATION - ALCHEMY

Tarot is above all a book of transformations in the etymological sense: transcending the form to go beyond what the form gives us, beyond in-formation, beyond appearances. A book of transformations such as the Chinese Yi-King which is designated as such in the Eastern tradition. The Tarot of Marseilles is the book of transformations of Western wisdom.

Tarot contains a secret - this we have seen. One can even say that it secretes a secret. The secret leads us to the sacred. It is the secret of alchemists, the secret of the philosopher's stone. This stone allows the transmutation of matter, the transformation of lead to gold. Keep in mind that alchemy is above all a spiritual philosophy. It is said in alchemical wisdom that the adept will only accomplish the sublimal operation when he has himself become gold. The alchemist cannot transform lead to gold unless he has killed within himself the desire for gold, if he has transmuted his leaden sleep into golden sun. It is truly a path of awakening. This alchemical quest is, once again, archetypal; one can find it in many books and in most of the foundational sacred texts of civilisations: The Quest for the Holy Grail, but also the Karmic cycles, the Hexagrammes of the Yi-King as we have previously seen, the 12 Labours of Hercules - one of the most important initiatory texts of Antiquity - Jason and his quest for the Golden Fleece, the Jeu de l'Oie*. (...)
-------------------
* The "Jeu de l'Oie" is a French board game for children.
extract from : http://www.tarotforum.net/newreply.php?action=newreply&postid=81081


So what I get from Text 1 is that Holy Grail was invented for "political reasons" and Tarot tried to resist and protect an older wisdom. As for Text 2, Tarot and the quest for the Holy Grail are similar, might the text even suggest that Tarot came after the Quest as it opens the door to this Holy Grail secret ??

I am confused, this is just a tiny bit of detail in the rich tarot historical history, I admit, yet it bugs me. I also understand that there are many theories about tarot history and this just might be an historical question mark whether which one of tarot or Holy Grail appeared first.

Thanks for any input,

Kissa

[ihcoyc]

Somewhere around here --- I think it was in a thread on tarot and Rabelais --- there is a reference to a little French book called Graal et Tarot (http://www.contrepoints.com/geometrie/librairie/salomon/pages/g_tarot.htm).

The book, unfortunately, is scarcely intelligible. It looks rather like some lecture notes for a course that someone teaches, where all the gaps in its argument are filled in. The author apparently comes from a background of esoteric Freemasonry, but beyond that it's kind of hard to learn much from its rather odd collection of ipse dixits. Parts of it seem to be involved with geometrical analysis of the Marseilles designs. You get the impression that this little essay was meant only to be understood by those who have some kind of background in whatever the system is that he's coming from.

Diana got it, was unimpressed, and sent it on to me. I'd be happy to forward it on to you if you read French.

[Kissa]

Originally posted by ihcoyc
Diana got it, was unimpressed, and sent it on to me. I'd be happy to forward it on to you if you read French.

Hum ... I'm french actually ;-) My moving to Finland was only the safest way I found to escape numerous ex boyfriends :-D

I would be glad to try and understand this essay, though I am just beginning my study on Tarot de Marseille so even if I can get the language, I won't probably get any of the "technical" meaning ... Anyway, from what I know, Diana has both language skill and serious knowledge on this subject. I trust her judgement on the book, even if my initiating message on this thread might have put this in doubt ... I didn't mean to be careless.

Kissa

[Cerulean]

Confused? Yes, me too, although not without amusement. Hopefully what you read below will elicit a smile...because I am in the same boat, trying to find better answers.
The similar periods where designs of tarot trumps came about in gaming and painted minatures does parallel the courtly rise of romantic literature and depiction of courtly romance in art. In the Arthurian tales, with Grail depictions, the allegory of grail and feminine archetypes of motherhood, sovereignty and the land, many have noted and suggested it came with popular celtic stories of the time...Christien de Troyes' Arthurian stories were one link in an observable chain. I found them somewhat charming, very Christian and only liked them for what they inspired---Eloise and Abelard, romance of the rose style narratives, etc.
Christen de Troyes wrote the tales for his patron. His patron was a notable and noble lady who married for the second time a lad of 18 when she was well in her late 30's...they had about four or more children and by all accounts, a happy marriage.
A historian type with an unusual agenda got a hold of the above pieces of information actually wrote an English-language book:
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The Tarot Trumps and the Holy Grail

Great Secrets of the Middle Ages
by Margaret Starbird

Summary
Have you ever held a tarot deck and looked at all those wonderful pictures: the Pope, the Tower, the Sun, the dreadful hanged man? Where did they come from? Who made them up? Did they have a life before they became associated with fortune telling?
Academic and writer, Margaret Starbird, has spent years researching the stories of the Holy Grail. The accidental discovery of a book on Tarot and research which began to signal links between the cards and the Grail story have led to a fascinating book.
The Tarot Trumps and the Holy Grail is the wonderful outcome of that happy accident.
The book reveals the strong link between the trump cards of the tarot deck and the medieval heresy of the Holy Grail. The adherents of the Grail heresy believed that Jesus was married, that his wife and child found political refuge in Gaul and that the human/divine bloodline of Jesus lived on in Europe.
These cards, a visual catechism, were the means by which devout believers secretly shared the hidden message of the continuation of the line of Jesus.
What messages do these cards contain which still may have meaning for those of us who continue the search for the divine feminine in our own lives?
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So you are not the only one trying to juggle lots of information and trying to separate the dross from the gold...if anyone can spare the money to get this book, please let me know what you think...

[Ophiel]

One would guess then (I despise the act of assumption) that the Chretien de Troyes' Grail Legend was the first? I'm not strong on historical accuracy, and wonder, is this true? Is this the first actual "Grail" legend?

[catboxer]

Kissa:

Your confusion is understandable since the sources you've quoted are confused. Both are examples of speculation masquerading as history.

Some of the ideas contained in tarot trump cards might have originated with the grail legends or with heretical movements of the 12th, 13th, and 14th centuries. However, there is a difference between some of the ideas contained in tarot and an actual tarot deck. When the writers cited here say "tarot" I can't always tell what they're talking about. When I use the term, I'm talking about a 78-piece deck of cards that originated in Italy in the 15th century.

In any case, I regard Kris Hadar's conspiracy theory, and his contention that the grail legend was "invented" as a component of this conspiracy, with the same deep skepticism I feel toward any conspiracy theory. He'd have to offer some documentary evidence to convince me, and he hasn't offered any. In addition, the Church didn't have to "make a decision" to violently repress the Catharist heresy; violent repression was its automatic response to any organized heretical movement.

However, there is a definite connection between the grail legend and the early development of tarot, and it consists of this: a grail legend manuscript dated 1446 (it lacks a title page, but scholars call it "The Story of Lancelot of the Lake") was hand-illustrated by the same person who drew the majority of the oldest extant, nearly-complete tarot deck, the Visconti-Sforza. If you look at the manuscript illustrations and the cards together, there can be no doubt of this. The cards date from about 1450.

I don't know how many of the ideas embedded in the grail legend made their way into tarot, but numerous images from this particular manuscript definitely did. We don't know for sure who this artist was -- Bonifacio Bembo is the most popular candidate -- but "who," at any rate, is not as important as "where" and "when." It's also worth noting that while the Visconti-Sforza is ultimately related to the Marseilles tarots, it bears very little resemblance to them outside of the similarity of the pip cards.

As usual, we have Stuart Kaplan to thank for giving us evidence that is tangible, concrete, and specific (as opposed to ephemeral, vague, and general). He reproduces pictures from the manuscript along with some concise commentary about them on pages 123-128 of "The Encyclopedia of Tarot," Vol. II.

If I was to offer any advice, it would be this: don't trust the theorizing of any author or "expert" who doesn't either cite documentary evidence (in the manner of Michael Dummet et al.) or, better yet, reproduce pictures of it (as does Kaplan). It was wild speculation and undocumented pseudo-history that, not so long ago, took tarot first to Egypt, and then all over the map. I haven't yet seen, however, a proposed extra-terrestrial origin suggested for the cards.

[Ophiel]

Dave B...wrote:

>I haven't yet seen, however, a proposed extra-terrestrial origin suggested for the cards.<

You mean...you haven't heard? ;)

[jmd]

In more modern times - or at least since the late, and post Chrétien de Troyes, twelfth century, we have combined Grail and Arthurian sagas. Do the two, however, really and totally belong together?

The document which catboxer mentions is certainly a later depiction of an Arthurian saga, illustrated wonderfully with some Tarot-reminiscent images. As he mentions, these are understandably similar given the context in which they were produced. The document, however, appears to have little to do with the Grail quest, focussing instead on Lancelot du Lacque (ie, the Son of the Lady of the Lake - hence the reason she 'lent' Arthur the family sword after the latter had broken his, and the reason it had to be returned to her hand).

What of the main thread question - what of the Grail and the Tarot?

Chrétien de Troyes was apparently very influenced by, amongst others, Horace, Virgil and, seemingly, especially Ovid (who's Art of Love was translated by Chrétien circa 1150). It seems that with Perceval, which remained incomplete at his death, Chrétien also combined various of his earlier episodes and other well known (and hence, maybe we should consider 'popular', such as the folk tale of the Great Fool) sagas into a brilliant interweaved coherent whole.

In a sense, I suspect that the answer to Ophiel's question regarding as to whether Chrétien's Grail saga was the first both yes and no. It is very likely yes in the sense that it became incorporated within an Arthurian mediaeval epic as Perceval. In another sense, it probably continued speculation and stories about Christ's Cup at the last supper, the Cauldron or Platter of plenty, and undoubtedly other half forgotten tales.

Like the Tarot, Perceval weaves eclectic syncretic motifs into a whole - a whole which, by its very nature, reflects the spiritual. In that sense, one may possibly discover similarities - I personally doubt, on the other hand, that a direct lineage exists.

[Cerulean]

There's probably enough mentions of Fererra, the "Mantegna" (Fererra under Lionelle D'Este) 50 card deck and links to D'Estes Arthurian and Grail tale obsessions in previous threads of the Mantegna. Also how the D'Estes/Viscontis became allies and in-laws prior to and throughout the time that the Visconti tarocchis came to be.
In any case, Kaplan does a wonderful job of putting in particulars in Volume II...my independent books and classes show close correlations, although a bit more detail on Fererra arts and poetry.
I just think many authors who have their own agenda will twist the factual accounts to a more favorable mysterious or occult significance...not to say that astrology or other belief systems such as traditional Catholicism was divorced from the social fabric of the time. I also am not a playing card historian who wants to squeeze the dryness from the juicy grapes of poetry and art, which to me, is a magical aspect of courtly history---and tarot was in that mix in Fererra...so was Arthurian romance in the minds of poets and artists who contributed to tarot card designs...
Mari H.

[Ophiel]

I'm not sure just how this fits into this mix here, regarding Grail legends, but I have a book in my UNread pile (which is much higher than the its counterpart) called "The High History of the Holy Grail" by an unnamed soul. It is a different story than the Chretien De Troyes version, but I understand the Grail and even before that, the Authurian legends captivated the soul of the mediaeval mind. (I have read that this mind and demeanor of the period was much lighter than so many history books present, and perhaps a reevaluation of this "dark" time might prove enlightening!) This unread version I am looking at right now is not often cited in Grail research, or at least not as often as the De Troyes version. Perhaps there were even more versions that did not survive, or remain undiscovered.

I am curious if anyone here has read this mentioned alternate version, and if it has relevance on this discussion about the Tarot?

[jmd]

I was under the impression that The High History of the Holy Grail was a later work following Chrétien's unfinished tale...

If correct, it would certainly make sense.

[Cerulean]

1.
I have no knowledge of the French High History title, but here's a free translation in English by U.C. Berkeley online:

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Graal/

2.
Stuart Kaplan's Volume II Encyclopedia of the Tarot, the index does reference King Arthur by name and also the "Fisher King" in terms of historic card designs. My only suggestion would be to readers would be to keep in mind Boniface Bembo might have headed a school of painters that painted in his style---an alterpiece that I saw painted by him is listed as 'in the school of Boniface Bembo, Northern Italy."

3.
Many suggestions of Grail legend being only a general influence on art themes and historic tarot designs are quite correct---sorry if my wandering threads seemed to be confusing to others. If you have Kaplan's Volume II, you could see equally important such tarot design influences from scenes from triumph poetry by Petrach. Because of my Italian slant, I'm looking into Kaplan's citation of minatures depicting a triumph poem by Lazarelli or card design scenes from Orlando Inamorato/Furioso by Boiardo/Aristo

4. I have to say Grail and King Arthur threads are lovely, though...even if only a general influence. Even when I look at many tarot designs that reminds one of courtly tales, I haven't directly traced any one specific King Arthur tale to my historical tarots---although more than four modern deck tarots variants from the 1980s onward do have strong King Arthur/Merlin/Percevil themes. Someone who is more well-versed in Waite/Smith discussion themes might find more Grail/Arthurian design influences in more modern decks.

5. Michael Dummett and Ron Decker in "History of the Occult Tarot" (the title is available on Amazon.com now) mentions Gareth Knight's positive view of two modern decks that touch on King Arthur tales, Merlin (RJ Stuart)/King Arthur (Matthews). They are British, though, not French views on Grail Legend. If you ever get into collecting King Arthur/Grail tarots, I believe the modern Legend by Anna Marie Ferguson and Julian De Burgh's Celtic tarot do modern myth archtype matching to evolved tarot archetypes.

[Ophiel]

DMJ - Not sure what you meant by 'later.' It appears to be that indeed, but by decades. According to the site that Mari_Hoshizaki found as a free online edition. I have a paper copy but haven't read it.

That sites says: "Originally written in Old French, sometime in the early half of the 13th Century A.D., as a continuation of Chretien DeTroyes' unfinished work "Perceval, or the Knight of the Grail". "

[Ophiel]

The book, "The Tarot Trumps and The Holy Grail" by Margaret Starbird, was mentioned in this thread. It looked interesting and I dug in a bit and learned that Starbird also wrote another book,
"The Woman With the Alabaster Jar: Mary Magdalen and the Holy Grail" by Margaret Starbird, Terrance A. Sweeney. Just so you understand Starbird's orientation, this book is aligned with the thinking that Christ survived the crucifixion, married Mary Magdalen, and started royal blood lines that still exist today, along the same lines as book such as "Holy Blood, Holy Grail." I have the fear (though I haven't seen the book) that the Tarot Trump book might be more 'proof' of these allegations rather than a straight-forward historical book examining the Tarot and the Grail. I suppose it might be, but in order to 'prove' the Holy Blood/Grail theories.

If anybody has seen this book and has information to the contrary, please let it be known. I am certainly not condemning a book I have not seen nor read.

[Ophiel]

Sorry that I seem to be the only poster here at the moment (I'll blame it on the holidays) but I am reading about this topic right now, so my thoughts and questions are flowing.

Loomis' "The Grail: From Celtic Myth to Christian Symbol" states that the reason for the variations in the different Grail stories is due to how the stories circulated during the time, that they were mostly conveyed by 'conteurs' (storytellers) who travelled the areas, earning food and lodgings for their tales. And if I am reading this correctly, there were some outlines that these storytellers would follow, though they didn't always, accounting for the incongruent elements by different tellers. This reminds me of the troubadors, though Loomis never uses that term. One can only imagine what these wanderers were up to. I believe I have read 'somewhere' that the troudadors were actually helping to build the imagination of the various peoples, with their stories, music, and whatever else they did. Some say they were highly enlightened souls, and they were spreading a great deal more than stories. About the time of the Grail stories, perhaps a bit later, I think another popular theme was The Fool, which of course is closer to what we are discussing.

I am wondering if these conteurs, or the troubadors (not sure if they are one in the same) have ever been linked to the tarot.

That could link this whole thing together.

Also, how about the Ace of Cups as the Grail? Is it too obvious? I have a friend who has written a book about the Celtic Grail and he tells me the Ace of Cups is the card, the key to the entire deck because it is the Grail, and I think he correlates it to the Celtic Cauldron.

[Cerulean]

When you get a chance, look at Stuart Kaplan's Encyclopedia of the Tarot, volume II and check the index for the following keywords: Fererra and Tarocchi di Mantegna. Lionelle D'Este who imported cartloads of King Arthur romances...on this board, Riccardo of Lo Scarabeo posted they will print D'Este tarocchi cards, which are misnamed Charles VI cards in many books (Kaplan notes this misnaming as well). Lionelle's brother Duke Borso had triumph poems and tarocchi like triumph paintings and some D'Este packs are in private collections...Volume I and II of Kaplan covers some areas.. down to the time period of Beatrice D'Este, linked by poet storyteller Maria Matteo Boiardo, who did courtly tarocchi poems and his Arthurian-influenced epic, Orlando in Love (Aristo Boiardo did Orlando Furioso--both are noted in Kaplan).
All the above have contributed to the social history surrounding tarot, tarocchi and Visconti-Sforza. The courtly tales of King Arthur and triumph poems have all been linked to tarot, tarocchi, tarocchi poems and troubadour tales. Also, Dante Algheri and Romance of the Rose. I use Kaplan to check all my independent resources.
When you do get to check French history during those above times, you may find that periods of war, plague and invasions may have halted the development of such things in late middle ages for certain regions. My suggestion is to check the history of Popes for the times that you are interested: when the Popes were centered in certain regions of France, French culture of those areas probably were strong.
These Italian links to tarot history are very well documented in Kaplan and other areas. Perhaps, over time, you will find the French areas have as much rich and gentle areas of exploration. I'm sorry you've not been able to explore these resources before now.
Blessings to where your journeys lead you. I'll be out of touch for the next week.
Mari H.

[Ophiel]

I found a Barnes and Noble reprint "The Holy Grail: It's Origins, Secrets, and Meanings Revealed" by Malcolm Godwin. In it, he states that the Catholic Church claims that the Cathars used cards to teach their Gnostic doctrine. (Tarot?) He also states that he thinks the Templars had access them also, possibly learning their use from their Saracen rivals.

Anybody have any more information on this? This section had no footnotes to follow on this point.

[Ophiel]

For what it's worth, I found this link about the Cathars and the Tarot, written by Robert O'Neil...

http://www.geocities.com/ninaleeb/sst/cathar1.htm

[jmd]

Thanks for that link Ophiel.

I haven't had the opportunity of reading O'Neill's manuscript on the Cathars and the Tarot yet - and have only just finished reading his much earlier work (Tarot Symbolism) which I obtained only this year - finally - and for which I wrote a review which I hope will appear on the site soon.

In this later manuscript, O'Neill certainly utilises many of the classics in the field of heretical studies - and will be very interested to read what he does with the material.

[Ophiel]

For those of you who do not want a thorough background into this topic and want to cut right to the chase scene, here is the page of the O'Neill article that deals specifically with the Tarot Arcana.

http://www.geocities.com/ninaleeb/sst/cathar8.htm

[catboxer]

That's a great page. I'd never read O'Neill before, except where others have quoted him, and I've been unsuccessful in trying to score a copy of his book.

He's a lot more exoteric than I'd expected, and he has tremendous respect for the evidence. The only sentence I disagree with is his last one -- "There is nothing here to refute an heretical input." Actually, as he must be aware, there's plenty in his argument to refute theories of heretical influences, as I'm sure he knows, since he wrote it. There's just nothing there that can absolutely disprove them. But at what point should we stop demanding absolute proofs, and draw conclusions based on the overwhelming weight of the evidence?

One interesting sidelight pertains to his commentary on the the Tower: "The Beguines believed that the church of Rome was the Babylon, the great Harlot referred to in Revelations (17:5)," and so did many mainstream protestants of the 16th through 20th centuries. But considering that John the Revelator wrote his book in about 95 AD, as Christians throughout the Mediterranean world were being persecuted by the Roman authority, my guess is that the Babylon John speaks of is the Roman Empire. Even though medieval heretics and their descendents, the Protestants, got it wrong, the early tarot artists probably were referring to the Babylon of Revelation, whatever it might be, as well as to that earlier Babylonish monument to hubris and impiety, the famous tower destroyed by God in the Book of Genesis.

Maybe this thread now belongs in the "Books and Media" forum.

[Cerulean]

...her book is a slim volume and would be of value to the following:

1) If you wanted small color copies of the erronously titled Charles VI Tarot cards. (Although for the same price, Christina Olsen's Art of the Tarot will give you more samples of historical tarot cards and a more dispassionate history.)
2) If your belief system is dependent on Mary Magdalen being in Provence, France
3) If you do not want to follow closely all the other influences in the art in tarot trump history, but want to jump from the Charles VI Tarot cards in the 1450's to the Minchiate in the late 1600s or 1700s.
4) If you favor the idea that the first and second Crusades and development of Arthurian tales in terms of the Grail is equated to a passionate religious quest.
5) If you are a passionate believer in any of the above, you might dislike my notes. Please do not read below/
-----------------------------------------------------------
I'm still digesting last week's class and may edit notes below, but I do disagree with Ms. Starbird. Because what I seem to be learning is different:
This is the second year take in my night studies about Elenor of Acquaitaine, from the rich farm regions of Provence. She was considered beautiful, high-spirited, and married at 15 a month after her father died, as the old King of the Paris or Isle de France territory had a son that was within her age range. Life in Paris was very stately, the tales told very much in the Charlamagne camp and traditions. The second crusade was about having maybe 20 or 30 court ladies among the young nobles and King of France and visiting her uncle, who had won territory during the first crusuade near the Middle East. Elenor as the young queen was having a merry time with her uncle and so her husband and others snatched her away so that her trip to Jeruselem was under gilded guard of her husband's people.
Sometime during the trip, Elenor was peeved enough to tell the Pope and others that her bloodlines were too close to her husband, so she wanted an annulment. That was not accepted for the next 10 or 15 years, but after that time, the French government didn't like only two girls were produced for the King of France. In his case, it had to be a male heir. During this time, although Elenor is said to have met the Count of Anjou and his son, Henry. Henry was one of two possible heirs to the English throne from his mother's people...while Henry and Elenor might have been observed as meeting one another, nothing was suspected. So Elenor was allowed by the King and French government to retire at her family's lands after her annulment...and in the history books, a month later, she is married to Henry, ten years younger than her. She and he eventually do rule England, have some problems and troubled years...but she, after his death, was freer and still had her children's love and connections. She had about ten children with Henry, I believe.
And in this background, Christen LeTroyes began writing his Arthurian tales at the request of Elenor...courtly love that differed from the Parisian's choice of Charlemagne's tales
Anyway, there's supposed to be Katherine Hepburn old movie that has some blurring of actual fact, but depicts the fascinating personalities.
Somehow what I've been looking at lately doesn't agree with Ms. Starbirds work---but if you want to simplify how you look at tarot, her work may be all you need.

[firemaiden]

Hi Mari, this is way off thread, but... you got me interested...when I was in Grad school I did tons of research on Eleanor of Aquitaine. I had to present a big paper for a famous medieval history scholar, Eugene Vance (the same guy who made us read Boethius) It was his idea. I was excited about the subject, of couse, but dismayingly, the more research I did, the more I realized that hardly anything factual was known about her, that all of the biographies available at the time were invention, fictionalized accounts, using eachother for reference. That the most concrete information about her were royal documents that she signed...very little. It was tremendously disappointing to all of us. I am sure that since that time more scholarly research has been conducted, but I would love to know what.

[Cerulean]

First link has books listed at end of the biography.

http://www.royalty.nu/Europe/England/Eleanor.html

Second link has some historical art samples related to Eleanor or second crusade...kind of related to Holy Grail

http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/heroine2.html
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Below is a teacher's comment from Making of the Western Mind---researchers, please heed Firemaiden's comment about Eleanor and the Four Kings not being as factually accurate:

RECOMMENDED READING:
Amy Kelly, Eleanor of Aquitaine and the Four Kings,
( originally published in 1957, still in print from Harvard University Press, ISBN: 0674242548.)

& Alison Weir, Eleanor of Aquitaine (1999).
Amy Kelly wrote her great biography of Eleanor more than fifty years ago ...The new biography by Alison Weir is full of new material and a fine work of history and I have benefited from her updating of the Eleanor story. But it is not the sweeping saga that you find in Kelly and I doubt anyone will ever write a better biography of Eleanor.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your comments, Firemaiden. I also come across many art resources who depend on Giorgio Vasari's accounts of Florentine artists, and it's not always dependable in light of recent research in the past five years.

[firemaiden]

Be careful! Eleanor and the Four Kings is precisely one of the books I mean: much of the research is based on previous biographies which were mostly fictionalised accounts. When I did this research, I checked up on all the sources. There is not much factual, proveable truth about Eleanor. There is however a much more recent bio that may have used more primary sources. If it sounds too fascinating to be true...it is...

[Phoenix Rising]

This is what Laurence Gardner author of "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" had to say about Tarot. Tarot was designed and attributed to Grail lore, Pope Gregory IX first Catholic Inquisition of 1231 Grail lore was condemed by the Church. It was not denounced outright as heresy, but all material related to it was suppressed. As a result, the tradition moved towards underground symbolism particularly that of Tarot cards. These emerged from nothern italy, Marseilles and Lyon in the 1300s.

The 4 suits of the Tarot's Minor Arcana sword(the male symbol) cups (female symbol) pentacle representing a dish or platter of service and Wand was depicted as the sprouting Rod of Davidic lineage. The heart of V-shaped symbol to represent the female uterus, and reversed V the male, when the 2 signs come together it creates X V on top, reversed V on the bottom.

However this sign was in the eyes of the church considered to be associated with the flesh and the devil. - as in X-rated movies. In Art the Magdalene has always been associated with having a X on her bodice.

The secrets of the Tarot were held in the 22 Trump cards - "Trump" derives from the old French "trompe" corresponding to the trumpet that figuaratively split Peter's church. The Church of Rose condemned the minor suits, but expressly banned the trups because they were deemed blasphemous. In truth there was nothing anti-Christian about them, but were seen to be anti-establishment.

They intentionally weren't designed to be cards for divination.
Justice is the female symbol. The portrayal has more to do with discrimination than with justice - 2 swords showing Natures balance and harmony on the one hand while the other weilds the spike of judicial authority, therefore the original card depicted the tenuous position of the Crail Church against the severity of the Roman Inquisition, and it was known as the "Magdalene Card"

[Sophie]

Well, I don't know about the sacred Grail line and the Tarot (I'd like to see Gardner's sources, for one), but I know this much: the minor suits are not European in origin - they came to Europe from the Arabs (who might have had them from the Persians), and were called na'ïb. There were 4 suits - swords, cups, coins and polo sticks (or clubs). There were all-male court cards corresponding to army ranks. These were the ancestors of the suits in the Tarot and of your beloved playing cards...

Phoenix - there were no "wands" and "pentacles" until the 19th century occultists got hold of Tarot.

So although European culture (in its wider sense) looks at a cup and think "Grail", it is simply a later interpretation for what is a non-European artefact.

Secondly, "Grail lore", if condemned, was not condemned very successfully- it formed the base of a rich and thriving literature that was fashionable for some centuries - particularly so between the 12th and 14th centuries. Eventually the fashion died out and grail romances were replaced by other writings, far more dangerous to the Church because they actually made fun of the behaviour of Churchmen and women (Chaucer, Boccacio, etc.) and increasingly, encouraged dissent. In between the writing of the great Grail romances and these new-fashioned books, a crucial event had changed the face of Europe for ever: the Black Death, which wiped out overall over 1/3 of the European population in 1348 and thereafter - but unevenly distributed. In some places (e.g. Provence) 80-90% of the population died. In parts of Italy that figure was also reached. In Northern France and England the figure was 50-60%. Can you begin to imagine the effect his must have had on the few, very few survivors?

Everyone died, including High Churchmen. Entire monasteries were decimated, entire towns. I don't think the Grail - or cards - was high on the list of priorities. When they became so, it was in order to stop people from gambling with the new card-games (playing cards, not tarot, which didn't make an appearance until the following century). We see a trace of the fear this broad sweep of death caused in the old Death cards, where the Grim Reaper cuts equally kings and peasants.

[venicebard]

...an historical question mark whether which one of tarot or Holy Grail appeared first.

Thanks for any input,

KissaGrail came first.

To Kissa (originator extrordinaire): Is it not obvious that grail symbolism is at the heart of TdM? What other set of images (I speak as one who takes TdM to be older than the extant surviving copies) is conspicuous in having a Grail Knight, a Grail King, even a Grail Queen? while the ‘Grail Knave’ shows knaves don’t qualify, which is the message of the Grail Quest itself, is it not. I am extremely interested in Georges Colleuil’s Tarot L’Enchanteur now that I’ve read your post. Hadar seems a bit extreme, justifiably moved as he is by the holocaust of early 13th-century Languedoc – Luck, the founding god of Lyons, must have wanted to cover his eyes when facing southwest in those days! – into noticing that the Grail mainly had currency in the north. I see both cultures as strongly influenced by British bards, in the south the Tristan story and letter-tradition (relevant to Troubadours’ use of sound-figures), in the north the more martial Brito-Sarmatian lore of Arthur, the Cauldron (Grail), the ‘grail hallows’ (tarot suits, roughly), and such. In tarot we get it ‘straight’, whereas in popular culture of the 12th century we get it chopped up into ‘or d’oeuvres’. Marie de Champagne was the daughter of Alienor d’Aquitaine and both may have helped introduce bardic culture to the north.

The conclusion of Diana's translation of Colleuil you truncated in your thread-originator post is telling:

For example, the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur is of the same nature as the fundamental tarological story where one needs to open one after the other 78 doors. One can think here of the Goddess Inana of the Sumerian tradition, but also of Dionysos or Orpheus who, descending into inferior worlds, went on a journey of self-discovery. 78 doors to open, in order to access that interior space where all conflicts are abolished, where that vacuity is born that is so important in spiritual traditions and where contemplation allows for the profound waking up of conscience and love. 78 doors to open, so that beyond this 78th door appears the 79th.

The 79th does not exist yet. It is a white card on which can be expressed our Reality. In the Mendeleiev table, which is a representation of the world of matter and the atomic value of things, the number 79 designates precisely the number of gold…. Strange!
Funny, I had not dwelt on this fact (having noted it), but in other regards I have discovered that the system of understanding built into tarot is consistent with, at least, the principles of biological chemistry and particle physics – even correcting our modern physics in showing how quark theory is a ‘bridge too far’ (compared to ‘parton’ theory and keeping the four fundamental particle-types, since nature doesn't reduce to three) and in labeling the electron positive, not negative, so that current and electron move concurently (pun intended).

ihcoyc (book concerning ‘geometrical analysis of tarot designs’): It is an important avenue I need to pursue, taking Grimaud as the norm I guess (it’s the one I own).

To Cerulean (who already knows this): I (also) do not think Christ’s bloodline is a very fruitful direction of pursuit, except perhaps as a belief held by some secret society or something, as outlined by the book Holy Blood, Holy Grail (by I-forget-whom) – in other words, a possible hidden strand of history that might lead somewhere. But I doubt very much that Iesus came to Gaul w/ wife and child for I doubt very much he had a wife or child. But of course I am Gnostic in viewpoint and thus take Iesus as one who ‘perfected the body’ (i.e. became immortal, accomplished the ‘great work’), which one cannot do while married and procreating. He was not, as such authors suggest, ‘a good Jew’ but berated priests of the Law on behalf of Love (not ‘love’), which is the message in tarot: in bardo-Qabbalistic terms, the wheel of the torso is ruled by VIII LaJustice (samekh) at the head, signifying Law, but this is surmounted by the keystone of the Royal Arch, VI L’Amoureux (mem-sofit, the bunch of grapes in Aesop’s fable about sour same and a fox), who is looking towards the cleric not the beauty (where Cupid lays in wait fer ‘im).

As for crucifixion-survival, mentioned by Ophiel (are you the Ophiel?), I would just point out (defensively) that the authentic Gnostic view is of a symbolic crucifixion, not an historical one, and sees worship of its instrument (crucifix) as abomination, though not discarding the symbol itself (old Hebrew tav). The idea of historical survival of a symbolic event strikes poor me as ‘very strange’.

Phoenix Rising: to correct (I guess it’s) Gardner, it is the Baton that is the male symbol, to stir the Coupe, the Epee being what divides them from each other (turbulence, cross-purposes - the turbulence of the fluid in the cup, dummy [me]).

Helvetica: based on the historical evidence you site, pips and nobles were perhaps spread alongside alchemical teachings, being of four elemental types. This would point to something suspected anyway, namely that the four ‘grail hallows’ (related to the suits?) and many aspects of grail legend refer to alchemy. As for whose nobles are original, I would lean towards the 1-female-3-male variety myself (based on the Name) and am thus interested in finding out the earliest established existence of naibs with 4 male nobles (or was it 3? I can't remember).

But what interests me is the apparent existence of a form of alchemist (one interpretation of the term pferyllt), in its deepest sense, in Britain prior to (medieval) Arab influence. This could be related to the preservation of contacts and sources from the eastern Mediterranean in Brito-Irish learning while the rest of Europe was reeling from Goth and Hun. But it may go back even further, who knows: the threefold Brigit, for example, gathered together healing, poesy, and the smithy: is this not what alchemy IS?

To all: just thought I would put this thread to rest (as I have so many others), since the O’Neill links at the end of page 2 don’t woik no mor. Ta ta.

[Sophie]

Venicebard - the Arabs had some very fine alchemists, so your theory (if proved) fits there too; as did the Chinese, who were the first inventors of playing cards, though not in the form (na'ïbs) in which they were developed in Moorish lands and arrived in Europe. I am an agnostic as to whether alchemy infuenced the Minors or not - it's possible. I think it likely it influenced the Majors.

[f. silvestris]

I think the intended O'Neill link is now at http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/CT_Tarot_Imagery or thereabouts.

[Phoenix Rising]

Hi Sophie, yes I meant batons not wands. One of his sources was Margaret Starbird.
Grail lore did go underground, tarot cards survived because of the interest of the royal courts and seen as entertainment, which is a good way to disguise something, right under their noses.

The Roman church has done a very successful job at banning, hiding, crucifying, torturing, ruling, editing, controlling the world very well, as well as convincing billions of people of their patriachal dogmas, rules, lies and restrictions. They went to great lengths to cover up Jesus and his relationship to Mary Magdalene. they couldn't have a "Divinely" man doing acts of a mere mortal human. Since they didn't have much respect for woman either, but they had to focus on his mother a "Virgin" well an immaculate conception is just not possible. although that is a mistranslation of words. I would be more inclined to believe the "Original hebrew bible", clay tablets, scrolls found, and not the "King James version" changed hundreds of years later.
I think the bloodline is a very fruitful pursuit, because people have been led to believe otherwise, and if this is the truth, which I believe it is, this could have a huge impact on the world, and people may start to question other things that they have been led to believe. Too many wars have been fought on different beliefs.
Why was Grail lore and Tarot such a threat???

[venicebard]

I think the bloodline is a very fruitful pursuit, because people have been led to believe otherwise, and if this is the truth, which I believe it is, this could have a huge impact on the world, and people may start to question other things that they have been led to believe.Bird of palm (who, like the rest of us, must constantly be reborn), what can possibly be so important about Iesus's bloodline? Aside from how it, or belief in it, has influenced a secret society or two or even a subculture somewhere (of purely historical interest), what has it to do with either tarot or the welfare of the world? Juss ASSkin.
Why was Grail lore and Tarot such a threat???If Tarot was a threat, it was a long-term one: the survival of a symbol-system which had already and would one day again displace the Church as ultimate 'spiritual authority', based as it is on Gnosis rather than secular power.

Thank you, f. silvestris, for the O’Neill link. I found it (plus Part V, about Joachim) quite interesting (and intend to read more). One pointed excerpt (from Part VII) on tarot images:

"The image also appears in the beliefs of the heretics. The Beguines believed that the church of Rome was Babylon, the great Harlot of Revelations (17:5), and would be destroyed utterly and catastrophically before the beginning of the new Age of the Spirit (Emmerson, 1992). Later decks that name this card “House of God” may be referring to this heretical concept."

To be true to its namesake's region, I should think the Marseilles would have to look askance at the corrupt aspect of Mother Church and warn it of the wages of hypocrisy (XVI LaMaisonDieu).

[Sophie]

Phoenix Rising - Grail lore did not go underground at all! It thrived in Romance literature. It launched an entire literary genre. This is anti-Church propaganda - I think there is enough to condemn the Western Church of the Middle Ages without adding something which is demonstrably untrue.

[blackroseivy]

I think perhaps what is meant here is simply the fact the the cup of Jesus' "Last Supper" was substituted for the earlier Celtic "cauldron of plenty" & related ideas. I don't say whether this was "Goddess"-based or not, but it was certainly Pagan in origin & Christianized out of recognition by monks like Geoffrey of Monmouth.

[blackroseivy]

+, I do think we are going to extremes, here... Condemning the Church is all very well, but it is alive & healthy & must be dealt with as an entity by anyone who has serious spiritual leanings.

[Sophie]

I think perhaps what is meant here is simply the fact the the cup of Jesus' "Last Supper" was substituted for the earlier Celtic "cauldron of plenty" & related ideas. I don't say whether this was "Goddess"-based or not, but it was certainly Pagan in origin & Christianized out of recognition by monks like Geoffrey of Monmouth.Well Christianity did that with everything - Christianity as it is known and practiced in the West is a synchretism of Paganism (European and Middle Eastern) and Judaism as interpreted by Jesus of Nazareth. It's one of the caracteristics of "new" religions to take over gods or practices of the old. You might as well blame Christianity for turning Yule into Christmas. So what? The Greeks borrowed Thoth and melded him into Hermes, until Thoth actually lost his name. The Romans had done all this long before Christianity ever was thought of - Romanizing Celtic (and other) gods. It's the way civilisations live and die - or evolve. I really don't see the point of fighting this 2000-year old battle all over again! History happens, we must live with it and live now.

I do find it fascinating, however, to read the original Grail stories (non-Christian), and I think those who go and find them are doing an important service. Whether Tarot was "encrypted" with Grail lore, however, I very much doubt, although it is possible that some of the Christian Grail sensibility made its way into this "book without words", along with many other elements. Personally I tink it more likely that Southern French troubadour spirit entrered the Tarot than Grail stories, but who knows? Gardner and Starbird have served up speculations - I should like something more meaty to be persuaded to eat their dish.

BTW, Danhube: without the monks, we would have lost all the old texts. They and their libraries preserved valuable documents, including many non-Christian, and saved many of them during the Barbarian invasions that brought down the Roman Empire in the West.

I'm reading this fascinating book about the pagan - and particularly Celtic - survivances in Christian art in Europe. I don't think Grail lore or any other lore and art disappeared or was surpressed - it just evolved and was transformed.

[blackroseivy]

Well Christianity did that with everything - Christianity as it is known and practiced in the West is a synchretism of Paganism (European and Middle Eastern) and Judaism as interpreted by Jesus of Nazareth. It's one of the caracteristics of "new" religions to take over gods or practices of the old. You might as well blame Christianity for turning Yule into Christmas. So what? The Greeks borrowed Thoth and melded him into Hermes, until Thoth actually lost his name. The Romans had done all this long before Christianity ever was thought of - Romanizing Celtic (and other) gods. It's the way civilisations live and die - or evolve. I really don't see the point of fighting this 2000-year old battle all over again! History happens, we must live with it and live now.

I do find it fascinating, however, to read the original Grail stories (non-Christian), and I think those who go and find them are doing an important service. Whether Tarot was "encrypted" with Grail lore, however, I very much doubt, although it is possible that some of the Christian Grail sensibility made its way into this "book without words", along with many other elements. Personally I tink it more likely that Southern French troubadour spirit entrered the Tarot than Grail stories, but who knows? Gardner and Starbird have served up speculations - I should like something more meaty to be persuaded to eat their dish.

BTW, Danhube: without the monks, we would have lost all the old texts. They and their libraries preserved valuable documents, including many non-Christian, and saved many of them during the Barbarian invasions that brought down the Roman Empire in the West.

I'm reading this fascinating book about the pagan - and particularly Celtic - survivances in Christian art in Europe. I don't think Grail lore or any other lore and art disappeared or was surpressed - it just evolved and was transformed.

I'm a big believer in "How The Irish Saved Civilization". (+ others, of course!) I certainly know things would have been lost if they hadn't been written down - the Druids had a proscription on writing! Just commenting, is all...

Yes, Christianity is fact & must be dealt with. I certainly agree with what you have said. I just kinda find it fascinating to dig out the Paganism within the Christian writings etc., if you know what I mean. Romans certainly "Romanized" things both before & after the fact; but the native traditions were more obvious in pre-Christian times. But on the other hand, look at a thing like the popular "Green-Man" motif, & also "Sheela-na-Gigs" - I know that these are in the British Isles, at any rate - I don't know if the Green Man is as popular on the continent. Anyway, things survive & change, as you say.

[Sophie]

Yes, Christianity is fact & must be dealt with. I certainly agree with what you have said. I just kinda find it fascinating to dig out the Paganism within the Christian writings etc., if you know what I mean. Romans certainly "Romanized" things both before & after the fact; but the native traditions were more obvious in pre-Christian times. But on the other hand, look at a thing like the popular "Green-Man" motif, & also "Sheela-na-Gigs" - I know that these are in the British Isles, at any rate - I don't know if the Green Man is as popular on the continent. Oh absolutely! I'm all for that! I became fascinated with the Green Man years ago when I was living in England - visiting Cathedrals. We see him here too. He is pre-celtic from what I can make out, which is even more fascinating. I love Celtic mythology too - am discovering more of it these days - and as you know, many of it was preserved by Irish monks.

[Phoenix Rising]

Bird of palm (who, like the rest of us, must constantly be reborn), what can possibly be so important about Iesus's bloodline? Aside from how it, or belief in it, has influenced a secret society or two or even a subculture somewhere (of purely historical interest), what has it to do with either tarot or the welfare of the world?

I asked the same question "What is so important about Jesus bloodline"? Nothing really, it doesn't really affect us directly. But this character is so significant in the western world, wars have been fought over him, over and over. Politics have been built around him. Millions have died over him. We can't even post some topics on this forum about him because it may be sensitive to christian members. So I think there maybe some importance here.

Therefore I ask the questions, search for answers, and hopefully am satisfied that they are the right ones. And then I share it with all of you, for some intelligent conversation. And what has it got to do with tarot? Well maybe it has everything to do with tarot! There is alot of information I'd like to share on here, but I don't think people are open enough to receive it. It's easier to stick to what you've all been bought up to believe, it's all too scary to venture outside the square. I wonder if God came down in front of everyones own eyes and spoke the truth, would anyone believe it????
What I find sad most of all is the ignorance of the world, there wouldn't be any wars if people knew the truth and not controlled by dogma and religion.

Helvetica: Lady in Arms, I so much enjoy having debates with you:joke: What I meant by underground, was it was hidden in plain sight! Like it was right under their noses, through, art, tarot, poetry, song etc etc.
and the anti-church propaganda, yeah so what, I have no trouble itmitting it, I am anti-religion and anti-church. Although I'm not anti the people who want to believe it, just the establishment. The feelings run deep, it's nothing to do with my childhood, I went to bible classes and Sunday school, and I think I enjoyed it, but something just didn't add up. Nevermind, we carry on.

[blackroseivy]

I can see what both of you are saying. My idea is, what started out *sacred* wound up *secular*, thus maintaining a fashionable profile but definitely something that the Church wasn't too happy about.

[Sophie]

Phoenix Rising - you have a way of disarming the fiercest of debaters ;) - and by this heat that is not me. Yes, Grail lore was hidden in plain sight!

What I meant by this deliberately provocative expression of "anti-Church propaganda" was that scholarship that is led by any kind of propaganda is likely to be flawed. A historian needs to approach a question in a neutral and open frame of mind, setting aside her prejudices as she examines the sources. That does not mean she has no preferences or dislikes in her spare time.

[Phoenix Rising]

A way of disarming the fiercest of debaters...lol..I don't know about that! Probably like to stir them up a bit, I only wish I could be able to express myself better.

Maybe if there was a religion or church that practises "Self-worship" then I might be into that, something that encourages one to look at the God/Goddess within, and not put the power outside to a higher being. why does one need confirmation from groups of people, we're all equal!!! Why do people need someone to tell them how to live, and they follow along like little sheep? I only want to be free and know the truth...who can we trust? who can we rely on? Nobody really...just our sweet little selves.

Yes I agree about the sources researching from a neutral perspective,. From what I read about these particular sources, they were only pointing out the mistranslations, and how it has led to mistruths, but what they said made alot of sense, and there is no denying the facts as far as the crimes committed within the Roman church, that is public knowledge. The sources are highly qualified and reputable, with the facts to back it up. But some people will not agree to it, and that's ok. It just feels right to me..at the moment anyway until someone can prove it wrong.:D:

[venicebard]

(Phoenix Rising, as far as “stick to what [we]’ve all been brought up to believe,” do not think we are a monolith. And the reason we are here is to grow. I should think the main constraint is to try to put things in terms others can get a handle on, and be fairly concise. I am perhaps not an expert on such matters, though... hah! As for certain things we can’t say, I think mixing tact with one’s honesty, and respect for individuals, is buffer enough for the ‘faint of heart’.)
It's one of the caracteristics of "new" religions to take over gods or practices of the old. You might as well blame Christianity for turning Yule into Christmas. So what? The Greeks borrowed Thoth and melded him into Hermes, until Thoth actually lost his name. The Romans had done all this long before Christianity ever was thought of - Romanizing Celtic (and other) gods. It's the way civilisations live and die - or evolve.Absolutely. I do not fault Xianity for what it took over from the past and reinterpreted: that’s what we Gnostics DO (though one bit of baggage Xianity adopted was priests, which we who remained Gnostic did not). [Diatribe alert:] I fault it for systematic destruction of learning on a scale (for that age) comparable (though not equal) to Marxist-Leninist and Maoist culture-obliterations last century. Its [i]elimination of competition by progressively brutal means stopped only just short of genocide (which the ghosts of Beziers might actually dispute). The exception seemingly was the extreme western fringe, the British Isles, where a mildly Gnostic learnedness replaced the rest of orthodoxy’s secular pretentions... for a time. Important ancient traditions survived there and nowhere else.

[Continued diatribe alert:] The man (may his soul be ‘reworked’) who ordered destroyed the still-huge book-horde at Alexandria in his day: is he not still styled, in Xian circles, Gregory the Great? [Lull in diatribe:] I love Christians, and I love what I call 'Christian behavior', it is what we have in common. [Return to diatribe:] Yet I consider Christianity, the theology and priesthood, a ‘philosophical’ foe that, while inspiring in a good way the easygoing, the uncritical, and the unlearned, remains a shaky moral platform for learning itself as long as it worships the Scapegoat, one face of the Beast in man (Gnostic in me talking). But ALL monotheistic religions naturally tend towards intolerance of what are taken to be ‘false gods’ (all gods but the one worshiped), whether these be pagan (‘pre-Christian’) or ‘philosophical’ (Alexandria during the time Xianity was clawing its way to the top). And there is a monotheistic religion today, of course, that is much more egregious in this intolerance, certainly, than my Christian brethren, there being degrees in all things.

[Diatribe alert over.] Having said all this – not to insult nor just to preach but partly as warning of my ‘prejudice’ in such matters – it is apparent to me that the fundamental symbolism in tarot is not anti-Christian: it is non-Christian – non-Catharist, but Gnostic and ‘heretical’ – yet encased in common symbols of the day, indisputably Christian in tone and tenor. I do not have any trouble at all, for example, in feeling warmth when I see the Pope card, for I am focused on the universal human desire to find blessing, to be cleansed, to regain innocence, and it warms me. I do not dwell on the fact that many Popes failed to BE pure, for it is the act of seeking blessing itself that is the warmth.
Whether Tarot was "encrypted" with Grail lore... I very much doubt, although it is possible that some of the Christian Grail sensibility made its way into this "book without words", along with many other elements. Personally I tink it more likely that Southern French troubadour spirit entrered the Tarot than Grail stories, but who knows? Gardner and Starbird have served up speculations - I should like something more meaty to be persuaded to eat their dish. While the Troubadour culture was surely the milieu in which British poetic tradition flourished, enabling it to come in contact with Jewish ‘mysticism’ in the south, how deep its effects go in tarot is hard for me to gauge (it must follow strands of Keltic influence on the Troubadours themselves, I should think). But as for the Grail: the cards out-and-out TELL us there is strong connexion, since what other game HAS a Grail Knight (Cavalier de Coupe), King, and so on? This is the OBVIOUS part of British influence that is meant to draw attention to its DEEPER content, for any aware there be such.
I don't think Grail lore or any other lore and art disappeared or was surpressed - it just evolved and was transformed.You surely don't mean to stick to that literally, do you? You must mean the degree of disappearance or suppression of old lore is sometimes exaggerated (hopefully not by me), and I would agree. Much that is rational in medieval philosophy occurred within the Church, such as Scholasticism (which was at least rational, whether one agree as I do with certain of its stipulations or not).

Postscript: I have had what I consider an advantage over most, in that I was raised atheist and allowed to find my own gods. The ones I have found that are of value to me are Truth (honesty, not a god but an ideal I inherited), Woden (my tribal god), Apollo/Orpheus (poetry), Luck (alias Lugh or Loki), Brightness (alias Brigit or Frigga), and Love (amity, and at times its more concrete form Krshna-Kronos-Vron-Fro-Bran of the boar, flute, and number 8), none of which forbid my hearing the great teacher Gautama Buddha, whose original (Gnostic) teachings I revere.

[venicebard]

[Continued diatribe alert:] The man (may his soul be ‘reworked’) who ordered destroyed the still-huge book-horde at Alexandria in his day: is he not still styled, in Xian circles, Gregory the Great?
I just read somewhere that it was Theodosius who ordered the destruction, so I must have remembered wrong. I take it he is sometimes styled Theodosius the Great, so I must have gotten the names mixed up: my apologies.

[augursWell]

Bird of palm (who, like the rest of us, must constantly be reborn), what can possibly be so important about Iesus's bloodline? Aside from how it, or belief in it, has influenced a secret society or two or even a subculture somewhere (of purely historical interest), what has it to do with either tarot or the welfare of the world? The possibility of a bloodline has great importance because of what it says, if true, about the image of Jesus that we have today. In order to be taught Kabbalistic knowledge a male Jew had to be married and older than 30 to 40 years. In another of your posts you said that someone married and procreating would be unable to realize gnosis, or something to that effect. Yet in Jewish culture that was a requirement for advanced spiritual wisdom. If Jesus had a wife, had a child, survived the crucifixion, and so on, it makes his teachings much more down to earth and quite different from what modern Christianity teaches. This is one reason why I find it strange that anyone would be upset by the idea. After all, we should all strive to live our faith in our day to day lives. A bloodline of Jesus in a sense makes that real and tangible in that maybe he also lived a life as most of us do.

[Phoenix Rising]

Hi Venice Bard...I had to read your post a couple of times, and then needing to find a dictionary to decipher some of your words..haha! I'm a bit simple minded you know, not a Gnostic such as yourself, so I only know simple English. And I'm still not sure what you mean :laugh: so I'll just leave it at that.

[venicebard]

The possibility of a bloodline has great importance because of what it says, if true, about the image of Jesus that we have today. In order to be taught Kabbalistic knowledge a male Jew had to be married and older than 30 to 40 years. In another of your posts you said that someone married and procreating would be unable to realize gnosis, or something to that effect. Yet in Jewish culture that was a requirement for advanced spiritual wisdom. If Jesus had a wife, had a child, survived the crucifixion, and so on, it makes his teachings much more down to earth and quite different from what modern Christianity teaches. This is one reason why I find it strange that anyone would be upset by the idea. After all, we should all strive to live our faith in our day to day lives. A bloodline of Jesus in a sense makes that real and tangible in that maybe he also lived a life as most of us do.I see what you're getting at. You like it basically because it makes him just an ordinary guy, easier to relate to. By the way, what I said required non-procreation was not gnosis but culmination of the Great Work, physical transmutation from male mortal to sexless immortal. I don't expect others to buy this, but it is my view and explained fully in Percival's Thinking and Destiny.

But to be clear: YES, the ideal within Judaism was/is certainly to procreate. In fact the commandment not to invoke the Name in vain MEANS to strive for procreation, not gratification. This (not that I'm there yet) is to upraise us from the normal human type that seeks gratification. But the next stage beyond this takes one to the level where there is no union between sexes externally and the 'sacred marriage' of the ROOTS of male and female (desire and feeling) internally. This is followed by the final stage of the alchemical opus, which you might call 'consummation' of that inner sacred marriage that gives birth to transformation of the body back to its original, permanent, sexless state. Call me weird, but I believe (based on MY interpretation of the rhetoric most closely surrounding his life) that Iesus (unlike the Gautama I also revere) had achieved this final stage of the work, as also indicated by the 'splash' he made. I don't imagine that individual had had sex for many an incarnation! let alone since his last birth. All individuals eventually achieve this state, according to both reason and the Lotus Sutra - however many lives it takes - and this is all it takes for me to 'relate' to him. But, then, you're not me. I don't set foot in Xian churches, though, any more than (I believe it was) the Cheyenne 'Afraid of his horses' would knowingly eat with an iron implement! (could have been 'Roman Nose')


The "advanced spiritual wisdom" I'm talking about goes deeper than just the Jewish religion, though this was surely based originally on perfecting the body ('Maria the Jewess' was one of the founders of the tradition we call alchemy in the West). For it was the gnosis at the heart of ancient alchemy and medieval Hermetic science and was based on an ancient bardic or prophetic body of knowledge whose repair in 12th century Provence gave birth to Qabbalah (based on earlier Merkabah) and later to tarot.

By the way, I wasn't "upset by the idea," just curious what the 'draw' is.

Be well!

[kwaw]

In order to be taught Kabbalistic knowledge a male Jew had to be married and older than 30 to 40 years.

The over 40 rule was to do with the maintenance of a persons mental health. It was felt that kabbalistic exercises undertaken at too early an age, without the perspective of maturity and sufficient life experience, could induce what we might call today an inflation of the ego and meglomaniacal ideation. As far as I am aware the forty year rule was not strictly enforced until the 17/18th century, following several embarrassments with 'false' messiahs.

Such prescriptions are not unique to kabbalah; in the east for example men and woman usually take up an ascetic yogic life after having brought up a family; even among many modern wiccan groups there is a prescription that the young need to undertake the 'work of the hearth' before they are ready to undertake magical/spiritual work.

The dangers are real, psychological experiments have shown that 'cognitive kindling' can be induced by some meditative methods, such as TM for example; leading to hypermania and psychotic symptoms, paranoia, feelings of persecution by an 'alien' presence and messianic ideation; and thus are contraindicated for anyone suffering from some conditions [some of which, Schizophrenia for example, are more likely to manifest themselves in one's late teens or early twenties]. For details do a google search on 'cognitive kindling' and 'meditation' or 'TM'.

Kwaw

[augursWell]

My mention of Kabbalistic requirements, even though other traditions have such limitations by age and such as kwaw points out, was due to the idea that Jesus perhaps learned at a young age from the precursor knowledge of what we now call Kaballah, that perhaps he was brought up with similar traditions. As such, at the time of his life there may not have been any "problems" with the idea of him having a wife or spiritual consort. Granted there is very little to suggest that but I really wonder if, in his day and age, it would have been quite normal for him to have a wife and child. As I said, it has more to do with seeing him as a living human being then believeing it to be fact. We will probably never know anyway. :)

[Phoenix Rising]

Hi Augurs Well
A great source is Laurence Gardners "Bloodline of the Holy Grail" and "Genesis of the Grail Kings" and sources have simple explanations for everything, Jesus was very much like all the rest of us, his miracles were explained too. Very eye opening material, but makes so much sense.

[venicebard]

My mention of Kabbalistic requirements, even though other traditions have such limitations by age and such as kwaw points out, was due to the idea that Jesus perhaps learned at a young age from the precursor knowledge of what we now call Kaballah, that perhaps he was brought up with similar traditions.I agree absolutely: they were probably called Merkabah in his day and were based on the four wheels of Ezekiel's vision as they pertain to the alphabet and the 10 emanations. I could teach you a little, since I have recovered much of it. Probably intact in Iesus's day, by the 12th century the teachings were in need of repair, which was achieved (I have deduced) through contact with another decayed branch (British) of the same very ancient tradition.

[blackroseivy]

I know about "The Da Vinci Code", of course, but I've never read it. My reading on the subject (unlike the rest of you here!) is limited; I only know smatterings. But, I go by what has happened in my own head (horrific religious visions of Jesus' life) thrown together with common sense. & it still makes more sense to me to see Jesus with a wife & mother of his children. However, you're right; I'm sure we'll never know for sure.

(My visions were unbelieveably clear & real - analysis later on had me figuring out what probably really happened.)

[fyreflye]

Since there's no historical evidence for the actual physical existence of the god-king Ieasous there's no reason to believe in the Holy Grail, it's bloodline, or anything else except the size of Dan Brown's bank account and the credulity of his legions of readers.

Far more interesting reading on this matter can be found in David Fideler's Jesus Christ, Sun of God, The Greek Qabalah, by Kieren Barry, and two books by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy, The Jesus Mysteries and Jesus and the Lost Goddess. Freke and Gandy get a little carried away with their theory in some areas but their survey of the historical evidence is solidly based.

I wish fans of the Marseille Tarot could accept the fact that this is just a playing card deck like any other and forget about secret wisdom written into the cards by mysterious wise men. I hear this continually from Marseille-is-the-Greatest advocates but they never seem to be able to explain just what the secret wisdom actually is. The notion of tarot as conduit for secret teachings is the invention of overimaginative 19th Century French occultists and has no basis in fact. Enjoy the cards in any way you want but spare the rest of us bizarre theories about its origins.

[venicebard]

Since there's no historical evidence for the actual physical existence of the god-king Ieasous there's no reason to believe in the Holy Grail, it's bloodline, or anything else except the size of Dan Brown's bank account and the credulity of his legions of readers.I tend to be in sympathy with you so far, save to say that SOMEone created a buzz two millenniums ago with SOMEthing (and we can each picture it how we like, of course). Except the Grail isn't something to believe or not believe in: it's right there before us, the suit Coupe, and it is our blood which it holds... (surprise!)
Far more interesting reading on this matter can be found in David Fideler's Jesus Christ, Sun of God, The Greek Qabalah, by Kieren Barry, and two books by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy, The Jesus Mysteries and Jesus and the Lost Goddess.The one I've read of these is Kieren, and it was okay, except he really didn't quite understand what Kabbalah is, let alone the greater teachings of which it is the mere flotsam of the shipwreck of late-Middle-Ages Jewry (may they be blest). But the joke really is on the rabbis themselves, bless their hearts, in that what they have made of their flotsam gives an appearance of being based somehow on Gematria and other tricks, which is shallow. Kieren does recognize number to be important, at least, and passes on interesting lore some of which was new to me, so I did enjoy the read. (I'm more pagan-Buddhist Gnostic than Xian-Gnostic and so will probably not read the rest.)
I wish fans of the Marseille Tarot could accept the fact that this is just a playing card deck like any other and forget about secret wisdom written into the cards by mysterious wise men.Ah yeas, a playing deck extrordinaire, to plant the building blocks of a deeper strata of solidity in the garden of humanity.
I hear this continually from Marseille-is-the-Greatest advocates but they never seem to be able to explain just what the secret wisdom actually is.I could explain to you the real symbology (tree-, number-, and sound-symbology) of tarot in outline and it would blow your socks off, if I though you actually cared one way or the other.
The notion of tarot as conduit for secret teachings is the invention of overimaginative 19th Century French occultists and has no basis in fact. Enjoy the cards in any way you want but spare the rest of us bizarre theories about its origins.
I realize this is rhetorical, but it saddens me that we must discount all gold because the 'gold' many men have found was fool's gold. Oh well...

[Phoenix Rising]

Fyrefly: There is many historic evidence of this being named "Jesus" depends where you look. I don't think these wise men wrote on clay tablets, scrolls, papyrus, pyramids, heiroglyphics to fabricate myths and legends for our entertainment thousands of years later. It only requires you to be more "open-minded" But nevermind, carry on as you are, if it pleases you nothing wrong with that.:laugh:

Venice Bard: Look forward to hearing about those methods you talked about that would blow our socks off.

[Rosanne]

Enjoy the cards in any way you want but spare the rest of us bizarre theories about its origins.
This statement does not apply to me- Bring on as many theories as you like- I have had crash courses in Alchemy, Tree Lore, Medieval History, Astrology, Alphabet History, Freemasonry- to name a few- and I love them all. Long ago I was surprised to read the Sermon on the Mount in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, likewise with the earlier Egyptian Ten Commandments- nothing would surprise me about Tarot's origins- I wonder if the game of Scrabble will be around in 600 Hundred years and as fascinating as Tarot? ~Rosanne

[blackroseivy]

I'm only just learning, so I have little to add, except this: there are certain symbols which reach beyond recorded history, & resonate so deeply with the Archetypal Unconscious that they are bound to turn up in one form & another in ways that will always invite speculation... I doubt anything solid is ever *really* going to come from this group's musings either way. But that's what went into the Tarot: symbols which are universal & have deep meaning for those who choose to seek it. Those who don't will never see it, no matter how the other side argues!

[Ross G Caldwell]

There is really nothing wrong with invoking Holy Grail symbolism when speaking of the Ace of Cups in early tarots. As long as it is 16th century and earlier Grail symbolism.

The northern Italian elites among whom tarot was first played loved the Arthurian and Charlemagne tales. Filippo Maria Visconti's biographer complained that he loved these "vain French stories" more than classical authors and philosophy. The Este library had dozens of copies of various parts of the "Arthurian cycle" and Charlemagne romances. They were, by all accounts, the most "popular" reading in those courts and others.

When it comes to the Ace of Cups, one set of Visconti cards shows an ornate cup with the Visconti symbol - a snake devouring a man - in it. The other set shows a fountain. The Cup in the first set - the "Cary-Yale" - resembles the TdM type. This looks to me like a reliquary with glass sides, the kind which exposes things like pieces of the true cross, a bleeding host, or drops of blood which liquify and congeal miraculously. Such ornate cups contain relics of the Passion of Christ quite often, so that by putting the Visconti emblem in place of a relic is making quite a statement about the Visconti sense of being consecrated and having their own "sacred" bloodline. Their motto was after all "a bon droit" (with good right (or) with good reason). They believed they were descended from Venus and Anchises (not Christ). And I think quite a few minds would have seen something like a "Holy Grail" in the image, especially if it can be thought of as reliquary containing Jesus' blood, which is the most popular image of the Holy Grail.

The fountain in the Visconti-Sforza cards would seem to me to be speaking more about the Source, the fountain at the center of the Garden of Eden from which the four rivers of the world flow out.

I don't believe anybody thought of a bloodline of Jesus Christ until the mid-70s of the 20th century. But I think interpreting the Ace in the TdM and Cary-Yale packs as mystical symbols alluding to both reliquaries and the chalice of the Mass, and hence the Holy Grail, is appropriate use of symbology.

[Cerulean]

1. http://l-pollett.tripod.com/cards32.htm

A few of them are mentioned in Andy's Playing card discussion.

2. The motto, A Bon Droyt, when first applied to Visconti's family, is perhaps more obscure? Summary and then link follows.

It is interesting to note that the Italian phrase “a giusta ragione” (with good right) is translated by the French “à bon droit”, in a trilingual legal document.
“A BON DROYT” is of course the Visconti family motto recommended to Gian Galeazzo by Petrarch.

Under point "I" for Jupiter...
http://trionfi.com/0/b/04/index.php

3. Perhaps a motto of the Visconti might be similar to their family legend of a Visconti ancestor..defeating the dragon...and over time the meanings of the personal family crest from the serpent to the cross emblem were broadened to symbolize Milan...but it's hard to pinpoint when?

Why the Visconti name (Alfa Romeo)

For an upper lineage Alfa Romeo, Giugiaro wanted to reflect in the name a symbol of the Milan marque: the “biscione” that characterizes the marque. In fact, the Visconti ducal coat of arms is represented by a shield bearing a serpent with a babe in its mouth, surmounted by a crown. The Visconti family recollects that – back in year 800 – one of their ancestors had killed in the vicinity of Milan a serpent that poisoned infants just by breathing on them. The other half of the Alfa Romeo logo, the red cross set against a white background, stems on the other hand from the banner of the city of Milan.

(I may replace this link if people become confused: I was trying to find a summary of the serpent and the cross of the Visconti and its association with Milan)

4. The views that Ross suggested on the hexagonal fountain and cups are quite interesting. I originally thought of them as mostly just characteristic of how the decorative devices was depicted in a 'gothic' manner. Thanks for the thinking material...

Cerulean

[venicebard]

hTrue Gnosticism is base on knowledge that is self-evident once it has been pointed out. Whether I be a ‘true Gnostic’ or not I leave to others: suffice it to say I think myself one.

[Friendly note to Ross: Okay, Ross, I’m willing (not being of rigid bent) to accept the distinct possibility of a northern Italian origin, asking only in return (should you wish to ‘sample my waters’) that you set aside, for a moment, the doctrine that Marseilles or something close and striving towards it could not have been the (block-print) main trunk from which branched the somewhat less ‘symbolically complete’ paintings and other deviations. In other words, I may mention certain details in Marseilles that show its origin, seeing it (myself) as ‘tarot’, and you can then translate back into your ‘Marseilles came later’ view. If you do this, you may find something of interest in what I have to say, who knows (or not), even though my scholarship is more plodding (which I freely admit). Peace, brother.]

This is based on wavy-line equating of Grail with the Cauldron of British and Irish myth, whose ‘alphabetic origin’ I will now seek to demonstrate. For me to be less wordy, do me a favor and associate numbers with trumps without me having to ‘rub it in’ (I will do so only for emphasis), as I am limiting myself here to the trumps, after this paragraph. The basis for all Hebrew correlations is the shared vision of Ezekiel’s wheels, on which all is based. These are: that centered atop Adam Qadmon’s head (Monad), that centered atop the head when seated (Throne world), that centered about the heart of Adam (zodiac of torso), and the round of the womb, symbolic of birth into this world and thus standing, symbolically (meaning powerfully), for the physical world or universe itself. This last means the other three map the deeper reality necessary in order for the physical universe to occur. These wheels are indeed the four worlds of Kabbalah, and the first ten signs on each form the pips (but that is all I’ll say on that).

I did not make up the numbers used below: if I had, I’d be a genius, which I’m not. I simply worked out (using TdM in part) those from 17 on, which had been kept secret, then checked to see where these numbers medieval Irish bards gave the letters stood in the periodic table, nature’s ‘numerology’ [so Sophie beware]. The first three wheels are the three ‘mothers’, since they have lesser wheels in their bellies. The Monad stands for the eternal – knower or ‘Father’ – the Throne world for things of finite duration – thinker or ‘Holy Spirit’ – and the zodiac for the part of the self – ‘Son’ or doer – that must act in the present instant (fourth wheel) even though (Plato points out) he can know nothing of it since it is gone ere it can be considered (which is why the womb is dark), meaning a doer must be guided by its thinker and knower if it is to act responsibly, as they grasp things having durations extending through the present instant. We human doers repeatedly veer from said guidance, not seeing the inner horizon, and instead create thoughts which cloud our ‘sight’. These considerations are a ‘Gnostic reinterpretation’ of pre-Christian learning of course, based on faith that its forms embody a knowledge later lost.

Ancient ogam consaine (bronze age, perhaps earlier) went: B-L-F-S-N, then H-D-T-K-Q, then M-G-Ng-‘Z’-R (with ‘Z’ not always voiced), later ogham (presumably when taboo was lifted) adding A-O-U-E-I. But the word for alphabet in Irish, bethluisnion, means N was third by one naming tradition, though a set of names (the Boibel Loth) exists for ogham as well. Consistent with N’s being third is a tree-alphabet whose first three letters are beth-luis-nion, given by Roderick O’Flaherty in Ogygia (we will use but 20 letters, the rest being later phonetic additions) and discussed at length in Graves’s The White Goddess. Most of its names are demonstrably trees thus lending credence to the rest being so also, as O’Flaherty stipulates (his critics in a couple of cases not recognizing tree-names as Keltic any more once they enter English, just as the OED failed to credit Kelts with the word galore!). This more than doubles our knowledge of each letter (taking Hebrew as another branch of the same tradition), as the trees are without exception of great symbolic import and yield deep insights into their clone, the runes.

Graves has argued for a calendar that originally (I would say perpetually) began (begins) at winter solstice. This puts the trees in their natural season, as he I think amply demonstrates, and the vowels signify seasons and/or lunar phases. D, oaken ‘door’ in every tradition (save runes, where it is the giant that has to fit through the door), is midway and signifies sacrifice of the heroic waxing year – spring is O-F-S-H, or 4-8-16-0, (man in his) flower’s self-sacrifice – and inauguration of the satiric waning year. Taking the first twelve of its thirteen months as the signs (points, stations) they emerge from (in the case of the first) or encompass (in the case of the rest) leaves out R, which in converting to twelve we thus banish to the center (moving quickly now). As P-Kelts (Britons) we insert P for Ng and take Q (in case we speak a Q-Kelt word) and ‘Z’ as ‘extras’ that double for months, that is, as KK and SS. The seven signs of the waning year (cancer to capricorn) are now D-T-K-M-G-P-B, with R in the center, the numbers being 12-11-9-6-10-7-5, whose differences are 1-2-3-4-3-2. R is 15, another 6 (by addition), so substituting for M (bear with me) we get D-T-K-R-G-P-B, which are the ‘double letters’ of the (Jewish Gnostic) Sefer Yetzirah. This in turn points to their obvious original phonetic distribution on the Cauldron, D-P later being reversed:

P - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - B


- - T - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - D - -

- - - - - - - K - - - - - - - - - - - - - - G - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - R - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

There is an ‘Egg’ in the Cauldron, for the latter maps the surroundings (centered atop the head when seated) – from horizon without (forward) to horizon within (back) – and in it rests the torso (zodiac). In calendar order (12-11-9-6-10...) the differences associate 1-2-3-4, respectively, with fire – light from horizon without – air – approach within earshot – water – what is within reach and can be tasted (requiring it be in solution) – and earth or contact – touch-smell, the latter simply being the sensing of surfaces of individual molecules (touch at its most focused). The torso or round resting in the Cauldron plays ‘tongue’ to its ‘mouth’ (facing heaven), the Cauldron’s sounds being B-P on the lips, G-K and guttural R at the gullet, D-T in between. The R we banished to the center we now see is the R rolled on tip of tongue, replaced at libra by ‘omnipresent’ M, which being the only fully self-contained sound stands for the (center of the) Monad, which encompasseth all.

Where do the twelve ‘simples’ go? First, Graves postulates two ‘secret vowels’, palm AA and mistletoe (or loranthus) II, the latter of which we note is obviously yod (not rooted in the ground). This forces zayin to be bardic I (since zeta is contracted DI). The rest are obvious from Greek: alef A, ayin O, vav (as upsilon) U, heh E, at length leaving us (by process of elimination) with tet AA, though this is no problem symbolically (as we shall see). Putting remaining tree-months in their place, substituting SS (tzaddi) for mother letter S (shin) and KK (Q, qof) for K (which is on the Cauldron), the only way to make sense of things is to let Q replace mother letter A (alef) in the vowels arrayed in phonetic order U-O-A-AA-E-I-II across the bottom of the ‘tongue’, from which the double letters have been ripped (to make the Cauldron). This yields an original order for the twelve simples of samekh-tzaddi-chet-vav-ayin-qof-tet-heh-zayin-yod-lamedh-nun, or bardic Ng-‘Z’-H-U-O-Q-AA-E-I-II-L-N, since samekh is ogham Ng expressed phonetically on tip of tongue, where it can be voiced or unvoiced (Greek xi). Substituting pagan F (alder’s corn-spirit sprouting phonetically out beyond the tongue or seed) for tongue-tip samekh (cf. the name Ingvifreyr uniting Ng with F) yields 8-16-0-17-4-18-21-2-3-19-14-13. Interesting note: samekh is called sagittary today (after rearranging the order to make the alef-bet), Ng’s place in calendar-ogham but P’s place in the bethluisnion, P and F being Hebrew peh and feh-sofit (final form) thus connecting these two stations, Egg’s aries and Cauldron’s sagittary. Note phonetic elegance of original L-N-F-S-H on tongue’s upper ‘side’ (out to tip and back), voiced being ‘inner’ and unvoiced being ‘outer’, as with the stops. The stops (rolled R a repeated stop) of the Cauldron trip-up the anti-hero (whose ‘goose is cooked’ in it) and the vowels on tongue’s underside (plus ‘choking’ Q) are him bewailing his fate. All simples but Q – which being apple or plump fruit stands for the womb at virgo and thus where one stops to await birth into libra or physicality (straight-down-ness) – are continuous sounds in bardic, as befits the continuous round.

The mothers: Alef A, as a center, stands for the wheel we plucked it from (zodiac of doer). Shin S, as a center, stands for the wheel of the surroundings (thinker). And mem M is the center, the Monad (knower). The Logos AUM or AOM is alpha-omega-mu, or (the only three bird signs in the Egyptian hieroglyphic alphabet) eagle-chick-owl. Shin was substituted for ‘chick’ to indicate fallen Sophia (thinker’s relation to sense-led doer’s vision-clouding thoughts), as if to say, “Shush, stop generating thoughts so ye might reason more clearly.” Christ’s association with alpha and omega indicates omega was Greek restoration of the original U or O of the Logos. It is pronounced by tacking I in front to stand for the body: smile, intone this (“ee”), then shift smoothly all the way to “oo” and resolve in “mm” (in a nasal tone, to hear the frequency shift from higher to lower).

Now the structure up to 21 of the periodic table can be deduced without cyclotrons by simply noting the change in the way number manifests in matter for those in whose thinking duality has divorced itself from unity: a 2nd then pulls opposite the first, canceling to make helium inert and thus create tension between number and valence that resolves itself by +4 and -4 being compressed into a single number at 6 and again at 14 to bring the two into sync, so that 15-21 agree in number and valence. This is based on standard numerical analysis, in which 5 manifests as minus-4, 6 as minus-3, 7 as minus-2, 8 as minus-1, and 9 as minus-0 in digital summation, which limits all number to expressing the four elements 1 through 4 and their (plus space’s or no-thing’s) negation. And it certainly is simpler than the physicists’ explanation.

B5 (boron) is the horizon within, cleansed of all outward things (Pope, blessing). Its chariot is now P7 (nitrogen, the ‘body’ of speech), which by its ‘epaulettes’ (tragedy and comedy) signifies poetic/prophetic tradition (‘seat’ of the poet), hence Merkabah (‘throne-chariot’). Horizon without is D12 (magnesium, used in signaling and nerve-impulses), inverted image on back of eye. What approaches within earshot is T11 (Force, control of lion’s roar, sodium to bind oaths). What is within reach is K9 (Hermit fluorine, gathered to himself [thank God]). And contact is R15 (‘glow-in-the-dark’ phosphorus, signifying chromosomes or heredity and thus what can override conscience even in the ostensibly honorable), once R returns to its proper station (as guttural). This leaves G10 as the action necessary to taste of 9, 10 being the inner counterpart thereof (and also the neon that invites us to ‘try our fortune’ at the wheel).

10 and 9 are, respectively, numerical +1, and -1 valence. Straight up from them on the Egg are 19 and 17, which are, respectively, +1 and -1 both numerically and valence-wise. Since +1 here means “1 valence-electron,” the polarity here delineates electron-versus-proton (lepton-versus-baryon), Egg’s unit-radius making them +1 and -1 (right and left of center) in charge and one valence-unit’s height, thus correcting modern physics’s having gotten charge backwards (current going opposite electrons, which makes no sense). Top of Egg is 8 oxygen (only atom-type without which there is no ‘up’, hence Justice or balance), whose function in combustion relates it to the photon combustion releases – neutral and ‘spin one’ in height, electron and proton both being ‘spin one-half’ (half photon’s ‘height’). Bottom is 21 scandium, heaviest nucleus of the bunch and thus symbolic of the pi-meson, which holds nuclei together (‘spin zero’ in height and positive, neutral, or negative in charge, averaging to zero). These four (and the Zohar, if we take ‘down’ for south) place the original elemental triads at the cardinal signs in elemental order starting at aries and going clockwise: photon-fire, lepton-air, meson-water (form, cohesion), baryon-earth (mass). Numbers in parentheses are ‘charge’ and spin (‘longitude’[left-right] & ‘latitude’[height]):

- - - - - - - - photon - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - (0 & 1)- - - - - - - -

proton - - - - - - - - - - - - electron
(-1 & 1/2)- - - - - - - - -(+1 & 1/2)

- - - - - - - -pi-meson- - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - (-1/0/+1 & 0) - - - - - - -

Proton and electron are the common baryon and lepton (even neutrons decay into them outside the nucleus). Physicists note the bosons, which like to congregate in the same energy-state (making lasers possible), are on the central axis, the fermions, which seek individual energy-states, off to the sides. The spin-and-valence heights thus established (since oxygen is -2, bivalent) puts the mothers all at their proper heights: M6 carbon is +4/-4 in valence, this being what makes it the Lover (ability to combine to make chains); S16 sulphur (which helped drive the cannonball at the Tower) is +6/-2 in valence (the +6 seldom realized) and thus half M’s height, at the center of the 2nd wheel; and A1 hydrogen is the original +1/-1 that determined things to be this way in the first place (wherever 1 perches to define ‘unit’ is the measure of all that follows). They define three levels of ‘unit’: M-carbon defines a unit of ‘Light’ (chain-formation, to give life ‘room’), on which life builds, S-oxygen (or the photon) a unit of spin – 'life’ for us, ‘light’ (small L) for the eye – and A-hydrogen a unit of valence or form. In us, these three types-of-unit become fused into one unit, one conscious self (though the levels remain distinct).

[Continued next mssg.]

[venicebard]

[Next 2 paragraphs present ‘complex’ notion summarized at start of third one down.]

To best understand the simples, we first make a simple ‘construction’, using the arcs already there. Taking the simples to be their months, the 30-degree arcs leading on from their signs, and all but the first of the doubles as the arc-radius approaching the sign, we note the radius of the Cauldron often agrees in valence with the arc on the Egg it sweeps just before it comes to rest. On approach to B5 the radius sweeps arc N13 which is straight up on the Egg from arc AA21, all three +3 in valence. On approach to G10 the radius sweeps arc E2, both inert gases. (All three inert gases are one 30-degree arc away from their valence level libra, the only possible representation since the alphabet has only two actual libras, Egg’s and Cauldron’s.) On approach to K9 the radius sweeps U17, both of these halogens (-1). And the radius departing D12 (D being first) finishes its sweep sweeping arc SS20 which is straight up on the Egg from arc O4, all three +2 in valence. That’s every other one! Furthermore, there is another ‘column’ formed by arcs top and bottom that agree in valence, namely the far right one, whose ‘ceiling’ is II19 and whose ‘floor’ is I3, both +1. Since these are the arcs approaching and departing the univalent level on Egg’s inner side, we note that this level on the Cauldron’s outer ‘surface’ is T11, the third +1, bringing into clarity the relations between potassium II19, which works across the horizontal diameter with chlorine U17 (-1) to control fluids within the cell or Egg, sodium T11, which works with chlorine across the extension of that horizontal diameter out into the Cauldron to control fluids outside the cell, and lithium I3, which buttresses potassium from underneath (potassium being deficient in modern diets), which is how it works to soothe ‘bipolar disorder’ in man.

Our attention captured by the columns implied above (outlined by the perpendiculars of the round), we note that the two outer columns agree in valence with 3 and 9 (+1 and -1) respectively – 9’s ‘ceiling’ being 0 or space – and that the one just right of the central column (vertical diameter taken as column, giving us seven ‘pillars of wisdom’) agrees with 5. Then we notice that if we labeled the columns (including central vertical axis) right-to-left 3-4-5-6-7-8-9, and attributed planetary cycles/metals to these according to the common tradition of the material Tree – Saturn-Jupiter-Mars-year-Venus-Mercury-moon, or lead-tin-iron-(gold)-copper-mercury-silver – we end up with a simple explanation for planetary ‘rulership’ in astrology: a sign is ruled by the column whose arc the round just traversed to get there, the only exception being leo, which is why I put ‘sun’ in parentheses. And then it pops out that hey, the 8 column agrees with the valence of its metal, mercury (+2), the roof of the 4 column agrees with the valence of its metal, tin (+4), as well as with that of the lead preceding it (in case its arc gets turned around, I guess), and that the central vertical axis is already ‘the year’ (in standing for the round itself), and further that there is a (slightly ingenious, if I do say so myself) way of making the last unfixed column yield to reason such that every other column is then fixed by its number’s valence, the middle column by being the year, and the two remaining columns by their metal’s valence. The ‘fixing’ of column 7 is simple: putting P7 and R15, both -3 in valence, at their original stations, the radius sweeps the roof on departure from P (it being first) and the floor on approach to R. The only arcs left out of the scheme on the Egg now are: (a) the inert ones, which are 4’s floor (Jupiter being a sky god) and 7’s floor before R15 sweeps it, (b) 7’s roof before P7 sweeps it, and (c) 9’s roof: empty space, or what defines the sign cancer next to it as a horizon.

So the Egg or zodiac shows itself to be an alchemical vessel divided by perpendiculars (the middle one of which is the middle column) into columns for planetary metals, whose arrangement dictates planetary rulership, each sign ruled by the column just traversed: from right to left, 3-Saturn-lead, 4-Jupiter-tin, 5-Mars-iron, 6-year-(gold), 7-Venus-copper, 8-Mercury-quicksilver, and 9-moon-silver. Gold moves to silver’s lower half, to rule leo: this is gold’s ‘reflection’ in silver. Gold is really 2-6-10, that is, the great year, 2, which is the relation between year, 6 (ecliptic), and day, 10 (equator). So 2, beyond the vessel on the right – meaning one’s higher self, ‘the alchemist’ – and 6, the vessel’s axis (us), are reflected in the lower half of 9, this reflection being our projection of 10 or earth out beyond the vessel on the left I guess, though it be only a projection. Furthermore, mercury shows us why this must be a closed vessel: its 8-column (indicated by the metal’s valence), heated by the warmest month (its ‘floor’), sends fumes expanding to fill the upper-left quadrant (spring) by ‘taking over’ the arcs or months to either side of its spring month, taurus: aries is bardic 8 (F or samekh, depending on whether you are pagan or Jew), and gemini is Hebrew-Greek 8 (chet/eta). And in the process of doing this it not only carries itself up to the proper height of its +2 valence but by removing the upper halves of the copper- and silver/gold-columns it limits these to the height of their valence, +1 (conductive metals). I for one was astonished when I discovered this.

The ruling principle without, therefore, is summer’s heat. The ruling principle within is centrifugal: metals iron-tin-lead arrange themselves as if whirling in a centrifuge, heaviest outermost, well actually innermost, furthest from axis-of-spin towards the inner horizon, axis-of-spin being our uprightness, doorway between inner and outer. What we sit on is the World (21), obviously. The meaning of the columns yields readily to our understanding. Within, lead is our ‘hanging back’, iron our ‘stepping up to the plate’, and tin what is added to copper to make the gong or bell that arouses us from the one to the other. On the outside, copper is that which is common or close by, silver-gold what is rare or distant, and mercury the power to transmute the one into the other.

Some particulars. Placement of trumps Sun-Moon-Star relate to reversal of D and P, and to the Name: the Name uses yod-heh-vav, and 19-18-17 are yod-qof-vav, qof and heh being the inert gases to either side of libra on the Egg: so the two triplicities complement each other, this being nature’s response to the Name I presume. 19-18-17 can be scooped up in a whirling motion to put the Masonic Lodge in order: Sun from ‘in’ to ‘down’ to warm us in the south (through Junior Warden R and helpers K and G), Moon from womb to ‘out’ to guard us in the west (through Senior Warden T and assistant D), Star from ‘out’ to ‘in’ to guide us in the east (through worshipful Master B and assistant P).

Now the three signs following nature’s four elements on the Cauldron, as you have probably guessed, stand for (the thinker’s distinguishing between) doer-thinker-and-knower. Since Cauldron’s sagittary has ‘flown the coup’ to outer ‘lip’ cancer, how interesting that 2-3-4 in Hebrew, Cauldron’s B-G-D, are the same signs as Egg’s yod-heh-vav. What has flown to ‘out’ is thought, sagittary, drawn by the doer’s preoccupation with external reality, and the meaning of the Name and of the D-P shift both hinge on this: doer’s active and passive sides (+1 and -1) attempt to function as knower and thinker in the human. This pulls both aspects thinker distinguishes in the knower, selfness B5 and I-ness P7, in, and both aspects thinker distinguishes in itself, reason D12 and rightness T11 (conscience, sensing when ‘might makes right’), out, that is, in our understanding. First we must restore R the Devil to its proper (subservient) place, then working within the Lodge thus formed will one eventually restore D and P to their proper stations. This is what I believe Iesus achieved... but then what do I know.

The system outlined has many ramifications I won’t expound here. But I will touch on how AA became tet/theta, and then examine the remaining trump images in relation to their placement. The bardic vowel libra or AA represents the exteriorization of thought in the present instant, the World. When thoughts were lucid, at sometime in our degenerating to our present state before we became ruled primarily by lust, this exteriorization may have been characterized by vowelness. Indeed if vowels are breaths and consonants the forms through which they work, then AA is the fire breath (being the palm, it is connected to the phoenix, reborn in fire), meaning the breath or cancer of a unit whose aries (where it is working) is in cancer or fire, E the air breath (breath of a movable zodiac with its aries at leo or air) since aspen quivers at the slightest breeze, I the water breath (that which has liquids L and R to either side of it when the runic aetts are stood on end, side by side), and II, yod the mistletoe, the earth breath. A is obviously the ‘psychic breath’ (activity of the doer), O and U those parts of the mental and noetic breaths that are in the psychic atmosphere (Egg). But in our present state this AA, this exteriorization of thought in the present instant, hardens into tet or theta (the one a stop, the other at least continuous) by taking on the phonetic quality of the level of thought in the Cauldron, D and T. Indeed the rune corresponding to theta, an hourglass on its side, is pronounced d or dh, save in High German, where its name is tag, ‘day’. The Greek and Phoenician letter is of course the alchemical symbol for the earth.

L14 is learning (tempering) because it is departure from, or extension of, self or within: as the silicon in quartz, it is an abstraction of the space traversed by the Fool, which is directly across from it on the Egg’s external side. N13 (ash) is negation because it is back one from the beginning, but being right up there next to ‘straight up’ it is also renewal and the lightness-combined-with-strength found in bone (or ash scythe-handles), or rather that quality’s ‘abstraction’ as aluminum (which must be separated from its ore, being always in combination), that which it ‘abstracts’ being directly across from it on nature’s side, meaning taurus, the calcium in bone, which is ruled in the human body from taurus the throat (the parathyroids). Bone is of course what the ‘risen’ are made from, come Judgment Day.

The Emperor rules spring from his warm seat at midsummer, for O is the vowel of spring (furze, spring’s ‘furze fires’) and of the waxing moon (the mercurial vapors rising into O’s season, spring). The Star, U or summer-solstice, is heather, full-moon, love’s consummation (the mixing of fluids): it is the level of cancer or fire but on the Egg. The Moon is the level of virgo or water (but on the Egg): it is the child’s refuge in the womb (or behind mother) from the hell-hounds. The Papess, with phallus acrost her chest, as E2, quivering aspen, signifies the most sensitive organ in man, the male organ (clitoris in the female), since it is desire or scorpio, that which moves beyond the physical (straight down). This trump signifies sexual restraint, since it is the letter heh added to Abram’s name to make Abraham when the covenant of circumcision was ‘signed’. Note circumcision is on the 8th day, and heh is the 8th sign. E is also the vowel of autumn and waning moon (repose).

Graves identifies I3 the yew as winter, the old moon, whereas here it is our anticipation of winter in late fall (what gives yule the orientation ‘mid-winter’). It is the threefold goddess usurping the place of thought, sagittary, but it also reveals our ‘way out’: embrace the Empress about the middle, as the tail-feathers of her shield-eagle do, and she becomes part of us, her triplicity ultimately haling from the threefold (Triune) Self. It is a good thing these tail-feathers do that, as I3 ultimately stands for Jachin the male pillar (roughly its name in the Boibel Loth), while B5 stands for Boaz the female pillar and luckily also is redeemed by the mother’s arm entering it from the right, presenting her charges to the Pontiff. Finally yod’s Sun shows us the sun’s rebirth at ‘midwinter’ (the solstice), the ‘satiric’ twin handing things off to his ‘serious’ sibling.

Beneath the World is the Devil, surmounting the World is LeBateleur. Above him is Justice (Law), until illusion bites the dust (LaMaisonDieu) permitting entry into Love (L’Amoureux), the greater ‘law’.

Finally, pillars Boaz and Jachin. We know they’re important because B5 and I3, first and last letters of ogham, are the only two that kept their tree-names in runic. Boaz is the broken column next which a woman weeps, in Masonic iconography, and thus the front column of the body, broken off at the sternum to enable child-bearing. Jachin or Iachin, then, is the spinal ‘male’ column (poetically, ‘backbone’). Yet B5 is all the way over on the inner horizon, so what gives? Took me a while, but I don’t jury-rig things just to make them ‘convenient’, and it’s a good thing too, cuz Ida wrecked the whole pattern!

What is going on is that there are three representations of these two. First, as their columns in the Egg, 3 and 5, the latter ‘swept’ by B, the former having I as its ‘floor’ (II as its ‘ceiling’). Second, as third- and fifth-from-the-end, II19-yod and U17-vav, the fundamental polarity of the Name. Finally, as +3 and +5(-3) valence, which are the two columns right up against the vertical axis, Mars and Venus, who just happen to be the two caught in a net being naughty by Vulcan or Hephaestus, Venus’s rightful husband – as 6, the year or vertical axis pointing down to his realm, also turns out to be in our suit Coins or rounds (cycles)... but that’s another story.

Oh, one last thing (and appropriate to bringing things to a close). The three remaining steps in our traversing the round (since we have come as far as conscious self, the tenth sign) are oriented with respect to us as a hillside before us would be, starting upward then curving about till level: they are the three most common atom-types in earth’s crust, L14-silicon, N13-aluminum, and F8-oxygen. And lo and behold, once we reach the summit, there is F-the-alder, vegetative spirit (Tree of Life?) from whence we get our oxygen. For alder is the tree of the corn-spirit, sprouting out beyond the seed alias Egg alias tongue: tree of Frey-Fro-Vron-Bran-Kronos-Krshna, whose chariot (Frey’s) is drawn by the boar, whence man learned to plow, whose symbol (Bran’s and Krshna’s) is the flute, an alder or reed flute in the case of Bran (as in bran cereal), and who was the eighth avatar of Vishnu. Hmm.

[Phoenix Rising]

Venicebard: what fascinating stuff, mindbloggling, you're a genius! thankyou for sharing and the effort put in. I have to go over and read it again however..lol!

[venicebard]

Oh, no, I just figured out: earth or day isn't projected outside the vessel on the left, it's projected in the bottom half of the vessel! It's the fourth wheel. Man I can be dense at times, sorry about that.

[venicebard]

The way B and P mark their +3/-3 valence-height is interesting: in their original positions they reach up to it via their arcs leading upwards into the unmanifest (the sky). Put this together with the arcs extending down on both sides of M and you have all the signs of the Throne world established. There is a way to progress up the right side and down the left (by valence steps), but you have to switch to Greek-Hebrew numbering for 3 and 4 (you figure it out).

One other thing I forgot to mention was that, with M in its original calendar position, one has the three mothers just as described in Sefer Yetzirah: shin at the head, mem at the 'belly' (meaning straight down from the head, thus libra), and alef smack dab between the two. The S is placed at aries (rather than taurus, where S-willow would ostensibly go) oddly enough by removal of N from its third place in the bethluisnion to fifth in ogham, which shifts S and F each back one sign.

[Rosanne]

That took some printing out!!! Thank you VeniceBard for all that work and passion. I will read it carefully, hopefully it will start to make sense for me- I will probally have to draw heaps of diagrams as that usually helps :D I thought I was an absolute genius with my flat figure eight pattern of major Arcana representing the inner world(daylight/man) and the outer world(night/woman) and its cross over point. I had just reinvented the wheel hehe :D I seem to be streets behind- I am just devouring 'The Cup of Destiny' to understand something of the Grail Legends~Rosanne

[venicebard]

I was going to insert this in the text (and still will), but since you printed it out already, Rosanne, the sentence I am adding is this: where I speak about Abraham, "Note that circumcision is on the 8th day, and heh is the 8th sign."

[Sophie]

Venicebard: what fascinating stuff, mindbloggling, you're a genius! thankyou for sharing and the effort put in. I have to go over and read it again however..lol!genius? I call it beside the point of this thread. The periodic table was unknown up to the 19th century. Why is everyone pretending this is not the case? Why is everyone falling for this tree-alphabet in the tarot thing when there is no proof and very little likelihood of it? It's a very elegant fiction. Are we in a parallel universe suddenly to take this thing seriously?

Have you guys forgotten Tarot is about PICTURES?

Why don't you write a book venicebard? and publish it on paper?

Weirded out. The Emperor has No Clothes...

[Rosanne]

With a little levity I say Thank you for NB- but If I was a little Jewish 8 day old male I would say Heh! as well!! ~Rosanne

[venicebard]

It's a very elegant fiction.Thanx for the compliment of having thought me capable of creating such a thing!

[Sophie]

Thanx for the compliment of having thought me capable of creating such a thing!VB - I didn't mean to be rude or nasty - I'm sorry if that's how it came across. I do think it a fiction - but very well constructed! And I do not underestimate you at all ;). But I am sure you believe it, so I'll agree to differ with you.

[venicebard]

I love and value the skeptic, whom I number amongst the ungullible. (My dad was a very ornery one where my theories were concerned, bless his heart.)

And if it should take the form of detailed criticism, even of method alone, all the better as I welcome dialogue, especially argument: a way to know is to never cease to learn (and observe what tends not to fluctuate). Warning, though, my time on the web may be much more sporadic for a while (after a month of house-sitting): I'm glad I could crystalize my view as well as I did before losing the opportunity to express it regularly. My response may slow for a while, so be patient.

Quick note as to method. My passion is to illustrate, most espcially to those who sense a great secret and seek it, that there actually was an ancient tradition that pierced to the heart of nature and man (in a way undreamt of in modern science), not 'that the people who designed tarot knew physics and chemistry in today's terms'. But I must admit I am at a loss to explain the uncanny invocation of many modern uses of atom-types in the trump images (correlated by atomic number) and wonder if perhaps it might have been something like 'remote viewing' or something.

But my main contention is that there is some sort of deeper truth (involving number), or ‘universal solvent of knotty subjects’, that the ancients preserved from the far past perhaps, that just happens to shed invaluable light on our particular way of analyzing nature. But the bottom line is that I cannot imagine this ‘solvent’ having been discovered by any who were not considerably beyond our modern, fragmented stage of understanding: all that’s presented above is pattern recognition, that this pattern exists (and how the number pattern in particular got into TdM). But I am just following this sliver of light to find the fisher that leads out of the cave, and have not found it yet. Help me... or not, that’s okay too.

[Edited to correct a grammatical error.]

[Cerulean]

Robert Graves writes in a vein that beautifully weaves personal history, a vast ocean of mythology and gift of poetic language that surpasses many dry histories of citations. He saw and wrote parallels of literature and mythology (first edition of the White Goddess, 1948, revisions of the White Goddess through the 1970s), before Joseph Campbell did, I believe. He was unique for his time--from what I can tell.

I believe he offered to historians 'his document of faith' in the "White Goddess," but I'm not certain at this point whether Robert Graves is standard reading among Grail historians...I will research that point. I had also meant to check out another historian's view of the Arthurian cycle from how Italians viewed this mythology in their own myth-making (Edward Garett Gardener, often cited by those who study the Ferarrese courtly family of the D'Estensi)

Given Grave's gifts--as elegant as Dante's synthesis of medieval cosmology into a personal journey of seven days--I can understand when I see customer reviews on Amazon.com regarding people's opinions of Robert Grave's on the White Goddess. Some of the customers also have a belief system that draws from Grave's writing, as well.

Given the above, and the fascinating brilliance of Robert Graves to me, I'll find a place to start another discussion topic on the gentleman!

Best regards and thanks,

Cerulean

[venicebard]

Just to clarify, what I said above about how lithium treats 'bipolar disorder' is only a theory suggested by the letters, as how it works has not been established. (A Science Frontiers documentary stated that it was by 'mimicking sodium'.) Normally I make clear when not reasonably certain of something, but that one slipped by.

Yeah, Graves passionately unloaded such a wealth of considerable study (and error from haste?) that to slow down to footnote would have fatally wounded his train of thought. I'm very glad he wrote it, but it has left tangles to work at, one such being to confirm the numbers he gave, the ones used to link letters to the trumps above: he implied they were commonly known as being used in medieval Irish literature, the only verification I have being one version of letter-order given by a bard in Wales in the book Barddas, amongst many that were spurious to varying degree (meaning another one or more had part of the sequence right). I search on. Finding it in Wales is good, of course, indicating bardic knowledge held in common.

[blackroseivy]

I missed the ref on lithium - what was that about?

[venicebard]

I missed the ref on lithium - what was that about?Sorry: last sentence of first paragraph of my second long post above ("The 'Grail' in Tarot of Marseilles, part 2"), about lithium 'buttressing' potassium from beneath. (It was within the two parags I said could be skipped in a pinch.)

[venicebard]

On last thing, for those interested in my take on 'Grail', before I relinquish my roof and return to my 'class' (school of hard knocks): I have posted whole treatises on the structure of Tarot of Marseilles - majors and minors - at the Tarot of Marseilles Study Forum, for those interested (they are the long thread-initiating postings no-one has responded to yet for the most part). The one I most recommend is the one connecting trumps to 'Bardic Lore' (for another thread I used the term 'Tradition'), as it collects together the main poetic references for each trump. By poetic, of course, I mean 'bardo-poetic', not 'beat-poetic' or 'street-poetic', meaning references adhering to the age-old theme that is to be preserved in the poetry.

[John Meador]

Filippo Visconti's library at Pavia (by 1426) contained Saint Graal by Robert de Boron.

Interestingly, Barbara Newman makes a connection with Guglielma and the Cistercian La Queste del Saint Graal composed circa 1215? 1225? here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=A9c2a4u00bIC&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215&dq=grail+guglielma&source=web&ots=xGe5-MDFrE&sig=EaJeektIsyqZFijIhNrMODKEyxo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=9&ct=result#PPA214,M1

whether this too was in the 1426 inventory my incomplete notes don't say...
-John

[kwaw]

The star card references the birth of the king of kings, below it in a 3x7 grid lies the Wheel of Fortune, indicating the rise and fall of kings generation after generation since the birth of the kings of kings referenced in the star above it; below them is the Empress, wife of the king of kings and mother to kings of kings, showing that the bloodline from Christ (XVII) through the generations of the royal bloodline (Wheel of Fortune) has descended through the female line.

The star is in fact a compass rose of 16 points (noblet, camion, dodal, et al) showing the line has extended through the four corners of the world (dispersed on the 16 wind points of the rose) primarily through 4 royal lines of descent (as shown in the 16 honour cards among the four suits).

The link with the royal bloodline from Christ is further alluded to in there being 77 ranking cards (excluding the 78th card which is without rank, the excuse); referencing the 77 generations from Adam to Christ, traditionally split into generations from adam to Abraham and thence from Abraham to Christ into 56 and 21 generations.

Tarot clearly demonstrates therefore the thesis of the holy grail and the descent of the holy bloodline of Christ through the royal bloodlines through the ages;)

[venicebard]

Tarot clearly demonstrates therefore the thesis of the holy grail and the descent of the holy bloodline of Christ through the royal bloodlines through the ages;)Even if one assume (as I have) that Christ 'perfected the body' (i.e. completed the Great Work) and therefore by definition did not leave any offspring (other than his own renovated 'vehicle'), I suppose the (false) legend of Christ-as-ancestor could still be involved in something. Still, though I like the 16-rays-projecting-onto-16-court-cards bit, overall the evidence for the above statement seems somewhat thin. But whahduayno.

Carry on.

[kwaw]

overall the evidence for the above statement seems somewhat thin.

Thin is thicker than intended ;)

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t212/kwaw/rose-des-vents.jpg

[venicebard]

Thin is thicker than intended ;)Ah, my little grey cells were not working properly: sarcasm! who knew.

[kwaw]

Tarot clearly demonstrates therefore the thesis of the holy grail and the descent of the holy bloodline of Christ through the royal bloodlines through the ages;)

Or perhaps more accurately, demonstrates that such can be read into the tarot, like many other things (being one of the great qualities of the tarot, of course).

[John Meador]

As Ross noted sometime ago:
"When it comes to the Ace of Cups,...putting the Visconti emblem in place of a relic is making quite a statement about the Visconti sense of being consecrated and having their own "sacred" bloodline. Their motto was after all "a bon droit" (with good right (or) with good reason). They believed they were descended from Venus and Anchises (not Christ)."
So we do know they traced their ancestry to Troy just as the Merovingians did; perhaps lineage from Japhet as well...

-John

[venicebard]

As Ross noted sometime ago:
"When it comes to the Ace of Cups,...putting the Visconti emblem in place of a relic is making quite a statement about the Visconti sense of being consecrated and having their own "sacred" bloodline. Their motto was after all "a bon droit" (with good right (or) with good reason). They believed they were descended from Venus and Anchises (not Christ)."
So we do know they traced their ancestry to Troy just as the Merovingians did; perhaps lineage from Japhet as well...

-JohnKelts also (at least Britons) traced descent from Troy (from one Brutus, the Britons' claimed namesake); they also dwelt heavily on the Noah/flood myth in tracing origins of peoples. And they seem to have been deeply involved in the perpetuation of the legend of Mary Magdelene's and Joseph of Aramathea's journey west (via Marseille, n'est ce pas?).

O course to me said placement of the Visconti emblem would seem to reinforce the coarseness of said cards next to the solid symbolism of the Tarot of Marseilles (such as preferring the slaying of the lion with a club to the control of its roar), where emblems of origin were limited (I believe) to the Two of Money and the shield on the front of LeChariot. In other words, tradition surrounding the real tarot (TdM) evidently precluded defacing the Grail itself (Ace of Cups). Interesting.

[John Meador]

"We find a helpful clue in the story related by Virgil (B.C. 70-19) in his great epic of the Aeneid, in which the poet has embalmed for us the legends current in his time concerning the wanderings of Aeneas, the reputed son of Anchises and Venus, after the fall of the city of Troy, which he had fought bravely to defend.

Aeneas, who escaped from the city carrying his father on his shoulders, led forth also his little son Iulus. It is this boy whom, in the fifth book of the poem, Virgil pictures as taking part with his companions in a sport called the Ludus Trojae or Lusus Trojae (Game of Troy), sometimes simply Troja. According to the Roman tradition it was introduced into Italy by Aeneas, and his son Ascanius imparted it to the Alban kings and through them to the Romans. The game consisted of a sort of processional parade or dance, in which some of the participants appear to have been mounted on horseback. Virgil draws a comparison between the complicated movements of the game and the convolutions of the Cretan Labyrinth:

"Ut quondam Creta fertur Labyrinthus in alta
parietibus textum caecis iter ancipitemque
mille viis habuisse dolum, qua signa sequendi
frangeret indeprensus et irremeabilis error."
(Aeneid, V. 585-591).p. 159

"As when in lofty Crete (so fame reports)
The Labyrinth of old, in winding walls
A mazy way inclos’d, a thousand paths
Ambiguous and perplexed, by which the steps
Should by an error intricate, untrac’d
Be still deluded."
(Trapp's trans., 1718.)

The game is also mentioned as a well-established institution by other Roman writers of a century or so later, such as Suetonius and Tacitus, and appears to have assumed imposing dimensions at one time, as we see from a representation of it on the reverse of a medal of Nero, where it has more of the nature of a military review. It was generally performed by youths, and only those of good social standing took part."
-W.H. Matthews: Mazes and Labyrinths [1922]
http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/ml/ml21.htm#page_156

"...the almost invariable custom of pitching pavilions for tournaments just before a Grail Quest is a medieval form of the Troy Game; and (2) that the frequent occurrence of Chess in Grail Castles and Magic Castles throughout the legends, in some of which in some of which the chessmen play the game themselves without visible handling, is really another of the innumerable disguises under which the Magic and Initiation appear.
-RW Crutwell: The Initiation Pattern and the Grail, 1938
http://books.google.com/books?id=3xEsCWEYFfkC&pg=PA424&lpg=PA424&dq=grail+Troy+Game&source=bl&ots=A-DpkI89X5&sig=lBXHFQrq4iXy2OoeGMYaYCQecD4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

" The most interesting manifestation of the platter, though, would have to be the gaming board in Perlesvaus:

[Gawain] looked all around him and saw all the doors shut tight, and then, looking towards the foot of the couch, he could see two candlesticks burning before the chessboard with all the pieces set up; one set was ivory and the other of gold. Sir Gawain began to move the ivory men, whereupon the gold pieces countered his moves and checkmated him twice. In the third round Gawain hoped to gain revenge, but seeing that he was heading for defeat once more he broke up the game.

Here the board is symbolic of the land and the pieces which move over its surface are the main characters of the Quest, which would explain Gawain's threefold failure; he is not destined to succeed in his quest. Generally speaking the platter is the most elusive of the four hallows, probably representing a primitive form of the Grail itself."
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/arthurian_legend/grail/fisher/

see also this thread:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=7403

[John Meador]

Some versions of the Arthurian romances trace Arthur's ancestry to Aeneas by way of Brutus.

" Invece della cerca del Graal, l’occupazione principale dei cavalieri divenne quella di giostrare e divertirsi in tornei: l’ideale di Bernabò, che chiamo i figli naturali Tristano, Palamede, Lancillotto, Ginevra, Isotta, ecc."
= Instead of seeking the Grail, the occupation of knights became one of fun and merry-go-round in tournaments: the ideal of Bernabò, who called the natural children Tristan, Palamedes, Lancelot, Geneva, Isotta, etc..
http://www.storiadimilano.it/Arte/miniatura.htm

"The origins of the tournament, like those of chivalry itself, are primaeval, but we may assume on the evidence available at present that its immediate ancestor was the Ludus Troiae (Troy Game), which was a warlike exercise played by two mounted teams; it is believed by some that the word "Torneamentum" is derived from it. "
-The Archaeology of Weapons By R. Ewart Oakeshott, 1996

this page has an informative account of the Troy Game:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Labyrinth+dances+in+the+French+and+English+Renaiss ance-a082554401

The description from the above link of: "This ritual of controlled confusion " evokes for me an image of divination techniques deriving from a game...

-John

[venicebard]

" The most interesting manifestation of the platter, though, would have to be the gaming board in Perlesvaus:

[Gawain] looked all around him and saw all the doors shut tight, and then, looking towards the foot of the couch, he could see two candlesticks burning before the chessboard with all the pieces set up; one set was ivory and the other of gold. Sir Gawain began to move the ivory men, whereupon the gold pieces countered his moves and checkmated him twice. In the third round Gawain hoped to gain revenge, but seeing that he was heading for defeat once more he broke up the game.

Here the board is symbolic of the land and the pieces which move over its surface are the main characters of the Quest, which would explain Gawain's threefold failure; he is not destined to succeed in his quest. Generally speaking the platter is the most elusive of the four hallows, probably representing a primitive form of the Grail itself."
http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/arthurian_legend/grail/fisher/ Chess (the Keltic variety, now extinct) figured heavily in Keltic legend. In that website, it is said to be "generally well-accepted that the fish is a symbol of Christ." Yes, but its presence in the Grail title 'Fisher King' may, rather, stem from the importance of the salmon as a Keltic symbol of wisdom (the salmon that ate the nuts that fell from the '9 Hazels of Poetic Art', for instance). This is probably pre-Christian, but even if not, there appears to me to be almost as much continuity between Keltic bardic tradition and Christian gnosis as there is between Judaism and Christianity.

One other note: Sarmatian myth/legend may also figure in the shape the Grail legend took. Sarmatian cataphracts were evidently the original 'Arthurian knights', and their stories share with Keltic legend the idea of the Cauldron only sustaining the worthy, an aspect of Grail legend referred to by (methinks) the (TdM) Knave of Cups (unworthy thief that he is, he finds it empty, no doubt).

A sidelight concerning jousting: my dad grew up on a farm and 'jousted' with an elder brother by each tying one end of a rope about the waist and riding past each other on work-horses to see who could unseat whom! (Sure beats lances, huh.)

[John Meador]

I am looking for the date of earliest reception of this work in Northern Italy, and particularly for its presence in Milan & Ferrara. Also, evidence regarding its popularity would be useful, if someone encounters the answer it would be appreciated. I'm not seeing it listed with Visconti & Estensi collections yet....
Thanks,
-John