Timing with TDM Camoin or Noblet...

[yaraluna]

I am still working with the TDM and I am looking into
how to tell "time" or the "timing of things in a reading. for example in 6 months, fall, winter, or days or soon, etc...

how do we do that with the TDM since it doesn't show as much "stuff" as the regularly used RW and other clones.

any help, tips, suggestions are appreciated.

thank you
yara

[MaureenH]

That's a good question. I know I read at least one comment and tried it within the last month but cannot remember! ugh. Too much info. I'll look around when I'm home later to see if I still have any info...could've been in a library book. boo hiss. Seems there are some clues like L'etoile pouring water while kneeling where the trees are leafed out...probably not winter there, but could be the evening of an event or one's life. Seems what I read had more to do with numbers though.

--------

I just looked around and don't see any hint of how I processed the idea before. It wasn't for me, it was with my neighbor who was asking about her grandson and she was wondering about a specific time-frame. I don't think I've asked any time-specific questions for myself. The idea of time in the Tarot fascinates me, though. What happens when time or its absence mingles with my molecules when I step into the card, etc. Anyway, sorry for being no help, but lots of someones on here must have methods to offer you, I would think.

[yaraluna]

thanks for the reply. i hope to see Paul around here sometime and see what he says.
my case was a reading -quick- i did for a friend and she wanted to know the time frame of what i had said. bummer! i thought.

anyone else has an idea about it?

thanks
yara

[firefrost]

The thread may help you.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?p=1478288#post1478288

Scroll down, it breaks things up into weeks.

[EnriqueEnriquez]

For me it is all about finding the analogy between the cards and some time reference. The Star at the end of a spread could be fall. The Sun would be summer. More active cards at the beginning of a sequence would indicate things developing very fast while having active cards towards the end of a sequence would represent a process evolving slowly. All this keeping in mind that tarot’s timing is more qualitative than quantitative.

Best,

EE

[yaraluna]

For me it is all about finding the analogy between the cards and some time reference. The Star at the end of a spread could be fall. The Sun would be summer. More active cards at the beginning of a sequence would indicate things developing very fast while having active cards towards the end of a sequence would represent a process evolving slowly. All this keeping in mind that tarot’s timing is more qualitative than quantitative.

Best,

EE


as always EE, your sharing enlightens the path more. coming from a RWS based symbolism mixed with intuition, Marseilles time frames froze me a bit. looking at it from your perspective, it is indeed an interesting -and intuitive-way of looking at it. i will practice more later on and share here.

gracias!!

[Paul]

Indeed, I have found Time to be a squirrelly thing with Tarot.

I have experimented with Astrological Correspondences, Planetary Hours and Days in order to really nail it down, but found Enrique’s advice to be true.
With the TdM, I look for salient images (perhaps the last card in a row if timing is of any issue or the major question), or perhaps surrounding cards confirm the event while the remaining card its timing. Something corresponds to a Time Anchor—this might be a season, a carnival, a birthday, an anniversary, a place that will be visited during that time, etc.

I know Kris Hadar has a system of reading time using the Moon and Sun cards in the TdM along with a card paired with them.

[eugim]

Hello Yaraluna....
I think or feel better that each one must seach he or she s own deck...
Surelly takes a time,in the middle at one specially time when you don t suspect,ou will find you re deck surely.
Some people say that the best deck is that what you have,I don t think so..
I love my cats too much,but may be they were too "friendly". (All of them)

Eugim

[yaraluna]

thank you all for your replies. gracias EE y eugim de argentina

my reading for my friend was a bit challenging b/c it was unexpected. we're having a chat and coffee and next thing i know he wants a reading. however, he has never had a reading before and was quite loud through the whole thing-as if joking, or not taking it seriously- which annoyed me a bit. then one of the main things that put me off was that he said i "know him too much" ....just b/c the cards showed what he is going through-which is what he asked anyway. THEN, on top of that, he wanted the TIMING of things!!!

gee!

i SAW the timing, but i couldn't put it into words. know what i mean?

thanks....will practice, practice

yara

[EnriqueEnriquez]

i SAW the timing, but i couldn't put it into words. know what i mean?



Absolutely. It is frustrating and encouraging at once.

Nice!

EE

[yaraluna]

Absolutely. It is frustrating and encouraging at once.

Nice!

EE


thank you Enrique.

That is one of the reasons why I am very selective in giving in-person readings. I SEE the story, the flow of the cards i HEAR/SEE them talking and telling things....I just don't have the words sometimes to express what i see, and in-person readings are time constrained and full of expectations by the querent!!!

I know the more i do it in person the more i will be able to SAY what i SEE with ease and quickly. To me the tarot oracle is so organic that being in a hurry doesn't fit with it. unless of course that is what the cards want.

deviating now .. ...

back to the topic.... I have been practicing just saying what i see right away the best i can in words and it is working well.

thank you////

[EnriqueEnriquez]

Yaraluna,

That’s excellent.

Sometimes I tell my clients that I am not sure about a certain word I will use to express a certain thing. So, I will tell them what I see, using the best words available, but there is always room to redefine that wording. I love the way the cards give you a certainty in a glance, and the most important things for me is to try at convey that certainty to my client, with honesty. But we are always translating messages from an imaginal language to a verbal one, and I have found that the healthiest way to approach this is by not taking any word as definitive.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

Best,

EE

[Melanchollic]

.


To the Reader,

Here be my simplest key for an Easie and plaine Method teaching how to judge upon the trumps, all two and twenty, of the Carte da Trionfi, including, but not exclusive to the declaring those generall Accidents which in a naturall course depend upon the judgement of timing, and by a most Methodicall way, Instructeth the Student how to Resolve all manner of Question contingent unto Man, viz, of Health, Sicknesse, Riches, Marriage, Preferment, Journies, etc..



Your most humble servant,

RAH ;)



http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x172/melanchollic_photos/ABPattern.jpg

[frelkins]

Does anyone else find M's post a tad cryptic? :)

[Melanchollic]

My apologies 'frelkins'. :( I will elaborate in somewhat clearer language.

Dummett, in The Game of Tarot gives us a simple and obvious way to clearly understand the 22 Triumphs when he points out that of the dozen or so historical orderings, it is the three virtue cards that differ the most from ordering to ordering, and by removing them, a common and obvious order is easily seen.

The first group of six cards, including the Fool, remain constant with the exception of La Papessa who in one ordering or another is placed in every possible slot above the Juggler and below the Pope. Here we see a medieval social hierarchy.

The second group of six always starts with The Lovers and the Chariot paired, usually with the Chariot trumping the Lovers. Time and Fortune again are paired in every ordering, sometimes reversed in their ordering. The Traitor and Death always end this section. Here is an allegory of human life, from our first love to our death.

The last group of seven is the most constant, always starting with the Devil, then the Tower, the Star/Moon/Sun , then ending with the pair, Judgement and The World, with Judgement trumping the World in the Bolognese deck. Here is a medieval vision of the spiritual cosmos.

Those new to Tarot who want to learn more about the historic meaning of the Triumphs can do so at Michael J. Hurst's excellent sites:

http://www.geocities.com/tarot.history/mendicant/MendicantsTale.html

http://geocities.com/cartedatrionfi/

Michael Hurst draws a parallel between the middle section of the trump cycle and Boccaccio’s Fall of Princes motif. So in my above diagram the middle trumps run reverse to the bottom and top tiers (since they are supposedly falling from of the usual direction). This results in a classic sinister/dexter division, with the left being malefic, and the right being benefic, a common device of Western art.

I speculate that the vertical rows may also contain an intended message, and this may in fact be the reason behind the position of the Papessa, and indeed the three virtues, in the Milanese ordering. (I won't go into that now however.)

As reflected in my diagram the three virtues and the World are separated. The virtues move freely between tiers in the various orderings, and thus seem to have been seen to be apart from any of the three specific tiers, and the speculation and opinion on where they should fall was the main reason the orderings differed.

On the positions of the virtues in the Milanese ordering, Bob O'Neill points out,

"According to the Life of Pythagoras by Iamblicus, the soul was composed of three hierarchical levels. The lowest or animal soul was concerned with appetites and governed by the virtue of Temperance. A second part of the soul was concerned with ambition and power and was governed by the virtue of Strength or Fortitude. The highest soul was the rational soul that sought after wisdom and cultivated the virtue of Justice to balance the parts of the soul and the individual human with other humans and the universe. The three virtues are discussed in three consecutive chapters of Iamblicus which was readily available at the beginning of the 15th century."

http://www.tarot.com/about-tarot/library/boneill/virtue


So, the Fool and Juggler (and the cards in the vertical columns above them) could be representative of the lowest soul - the animal soul, the Papess and Empress with the second soul - ambition and power, and the Emperor and Pope with the soul of wisdom. This works even better with the Eastern ordering of the trumps, the so called 'B' ordering -


The Fool/The Juggler = The Soul of Appetites = governance by Temperance

The Empress/The Emperor = The Soul of Will = governance by Fortitude

The Papess/The Pope = The Soul of Wisdom = governance of Justice


Or, as Plato said in The Republic,

"Then we may begin by assuming that there are three classes of men - lovers of wisdom, lovers of honor, lovers of gain?"


Anyway enough background. About the timing question. The A-B alternating timing aspect draws from both the alchemical and geomantic traditions, and is of course totally speculative, though a good deal of thought went into the choices.

The cards labeled A are passive, slow of speed, long of duration, and difficult to change. The cards labeled B are active, fast of speed, short of duration, and change easily.

Taking a querent's question into consideration and applying an appropriate range of possible timings, a general judgement can be predicted with ease. I've had very good results with this simple method.



A Charmed Fool,

RaH

[yaraluna]

My apologies 'frelkins'. :( I will elaborate in somewhat clearer language.

Thank you very much for the background info! interesting.

Anyway enough background. About the timing question. The A-B alternating timing aspect draws from both the alchemical and geomantic traditions, and is of course totally speculative, though a good deal of thought went into the choices.

The cards labeled A are passive, slow of speed, long of duration, and difficult to change. The cards labeled B are active, fast of speed, short of duration, and change easily.

Taking a querent's question into consideration and applying an appropriate range of possible timings, a general judgement can be predicted with ease. I've had very good results with this simple method.

A Charmed Fool,

RaH

thank you. so this method gives you the chance of looking at the speed of when events will happen more than the time (season, month, year, etc). correct? i can certainly see the use of it and will indeed practice this one with my readings.

Rah, do you usually address time questions as a general "fast/slow" timing thing, or do you get to develop that concept into something more specific at times, considering the surrounding cards? know what i mean?

yara

[frelkins]

What puzzles me is the negative, neutral, and positive categories. Because based on the context, it seems to be that all cards could fit in all these categories at different times. . . :)

[EnriqueEnriquez]

For me, it is useful to divide the cards based on the characters’ postures. Their gaze and/or body position would indicate if they are:

Moving forward: Fov, V, XI, VII, XX, XVIII, XVI, XXI, X

Moving backwards: XIIII, II, VIIII, XIII, I, XVII

Stagnated/Static: IIII, XVIII, VI, III, XII, VIII, XV

These considerations, base don the Noblet, may vary depending on the specific deck.

[Melanchollic]

Rah, do you usually address time questions as a general "fast/slow" timing thing, or do you get to develop that concept into something more specific at times, considering the surrounding cards? know what i mean?

yara


Hi yaraluna,



Using this method, and through clarification of a querant's situation, a general period of time can be deduced.

For a standard cross spread of four cards you can get five timings -



AAAA - very slow, very long, extremely unchanging

BAAA - slow, long, relatively unchanging

BBAA - middling speed, duration, etc.

BBBA - fast, short, relatively changeable

BBBB - very fast, very short, highly changeable



Then the diviner determines the possible range an event would likely happen, and divide it into five periods.

Let's say I'm expecting a package delivered sometime today, but I need to go out and run some errands and would like to know when the package will arrive. I know that the delivery man works from 9 to 6. I also know that his route is such that he can't make it to my residence earlier than 10:30. So my options are -



AAAA - From 4:30 through 6:00

BAAA - From 3:00 through 4:30

BBAA - From 1:30 through 3:00

BBBA - From 12:00 through 1:30

BBBB - From 10:30 through 12:00



I also use the device that the more malefic cards that are present in a spread, the more the that time will be inconvenienced for the querent, the more benefic cards present, the more the timing will be convenient for the querent. Assuming of course the inquiry is strictly about timing.



:CL Cheers,
R
A
H


.

[yaraluna]

one thing i noticed with your ABA spread is that it spells ABBA which is "father" in biblical terms.
:P

[frelkins]

RAH, please can you do a sample spread here and interp the timing, because i don't see how this works. thanks! :)

[Melanchollic]

RAH, please can you do a sample spread here and interp the timing, because i don't see how this works. thanks! :)


Hi frelkins,

Here are a couple of readings from my journals. These may help.


Method - 22 trumps with simple French cross.

Position 1 - Signifies Querent
Position 2 - Signifies Quesited
Position 3 - Hidden Influences
Position 4 - After Effects


http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x172/melanchollic_photos/twoexamples.jpg


Example A -

Question - Querent had just finished university and wanted to know whether she should start looking for a job soon or take some time to travel before starting her career.

Cards -

Position 1 - Signifies Querent.... Ms. Pope (neutral, passive, A)
Position 2 - Signifies Quesited.... The Chariot (positive, active, B)
Position 3 - Hidden Influences.... The Empress (neutral, active, B)
Position 4 - After Effects.... Judgement (positive, active, B)

Judgement - The querent is vague, passive (Ms. Pope). A good job presents itself (The Chariot) but won't be available long (Chariot, Empress). In the long term this job will be a positive step, but not a permanent position (Judgement). Timing pattern ABBB (relatively short and quick, soon to change) - the querent should take employment quickly.

Outcome - The querent chose to travel,, and is currently in New Zealand.



Example B

Question - Will Susan and I "hook up"?

Cards -

Position 1 - Signifies Querent... The Pope (positive, active, B)
Position 2 - Signifies Quesited... The Empress (neutral, active, B)
Position 3 - Hidden Influences... Fortune (neutral, active, B)
Position 4 - After Effects... The Moon (neutral, active, B)

Judgement - He is well placed (Pope). She is moderate (Empress). I judged a 'yes'. Timing pattern BBBB (very quick, very short, highly changeable) - the 'relationship' will start very quickly, but will be of short duration (Fortune) and easily forgotten (Moon).

Outcome - The couple 'hooked up', had a heated romance which lasted about three months. When I asked about what happened, the querent told me they really didn't have much in common.


Hope these helped. :)


Cheers,

RaH

[Melanchollic]

Example 3

Question - The querent asks "What is the best time to take my family vacation to Tokyo Disney Resort"?

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x172/melanchollic_photos/example03.jpg

Cards -

Position 1 - Signifies Querent... The Sun (positive, stable, A)
Position 2 - Signifies Quesited... Temperance (neutral, stable, A)
Position 3 - Hidden Influences... The Lover (positive, stable, A)
Position 4 - After Effects... The Tower (negative, mobile, B)

Judgement - The querent planned on taking his family to Tokyo Disney Resort. He wants to go the following year in March, or sometime between May and August. Dividing the possible times into five sections we get -

BBBB = March
ABBB = May
AABB = June
AAAB = July
AAAA = August

The cards give us an AAAB pattern, therefore July is the best time to go.


Outcome - They did indeed go in July, and charged their credit card to the max. (the need for 'Temperance'), but had a 'magical' time at Tokyo Disneyland and DisneySea (The Lovers, The Sun). They got caught in bad traffic on the way home due to a traffic accident (the Tower).



Cheers,

RAH

[Hooked on TdM]

I've been reading and mulling over this thread.. I think I'm starting to grasp a sense of timing due to the major's positions that M provided. I think the Court cards could also work in this sense.

But that drew me to wonder about the minors (Camoin Deck).. I noticed that four majors have a variation of the compass rose. The moon XVIII has a 32 point, the Lovers VI has a 24 point, the Sun XVIIII has a 16 point and the Stars XVII has an 8 point. (Judgment has points to but they don't make up the compass rose.) What all of these have in common is they are dividable by 4, the compass directions of North, South, East, and West. Each direction has a sign. North is earth, South is Air, East is fire, West is water. Each sign has a season (now bare with me here, my observations are based on Canadian seasons.) North is Winter. Winter the ground is frozen, the water is frozen, everything is solid, just like the earth. South is summer. Our heat comes from the south. It lifts our spirits. Everything is in motion in the summer. Hence Air. East is the fall. Our leaves turn amazing colours and often resemble a fire in movement. Our moons are brilliant reds and oranges as if on fire. Our sunrises and sunsets again resemble fires and are amazing to see. West is spring. Everything begins flowing in the spring. We have snow melting and water unfreezes and starts flowing again. Buds burst forth etc.. (Heck even our dirt and mud move! lol) Now with each direction and sign a minor suit is correlated. North and earth is coins, South and air is swords, East and fire is wands, West and water is cups. So each cup represents a season.

The courts don't fit in this at all, plus we can figure time out from their movement. So that leaves us with the pips. However we have ten cards not four or eight so no easy division. So we can either look at it as 1 to 5 as the first half and 6 to 10 as the second or divide it up. 1 and 2 could be early first part of season, 3 middle of early season, 4 and 5 late early season, 6 and 7 early late season, 8 middle of late season, 9 and 10 late season.

I haven't tried this, just sat down and tried to use what I know to reason this out and here's where I landed.

Hooked

[eugim]

Hello Hooked ...
Please forget all you read.
Just guide you and for see what your own eyes tell to you...
Are you seeing helicopters round here ?
No.You re seeing images on a card,so see so watch them carefully strictly baby...


Eugim (The Zorro... )

[Hooked on TdM]

Zorro :)

Yes I went far from my eyes, except for wands looking like fall due to trees, coins the hardened earth in winter, swords as summer, spring as cups. That is my eyes.

*slinks back to looking at the Majors for now..*

Hooked

[eugim]

Ok Baby,you re too I mean too much Celtic...
Or Viking ? (Van ...)

Eugim

[Hooked on TdM]

LOL very Celtic.. strong Irish and Scottish roots.. One look at me and it's obvious.. lol

Hooked

[eugim]

Also I from my mother side (Surnames: Cormack and Tippin )
But I m full red haired...

Eugim