Question about sequence - emperor and empress

poopsie

I have been wondering -- why does the empress come ahead of the emperor? I do understand the order of the Fool and the Magician but the Emperor and Empress are a mystery to me. I do not mean to insinuate gender issues that the males come first before females. I would just want to find a insightful basis on this one.

Takers, anyone?
 

Babalon Jones

ummm just a thought, but to the Empress is nature in all its guts and glory..."nature, red in tooth and claw" and the Emperor is the force of man, trying to impose order on the glorious chaos of nature.
 

Kali Kitty

From what I understand, the Empress gives birth to the material world and all that's in it, as per the creative number three (from two comes the third and thereby a cycle goes around and around like a wheel birthing all things) and the Emperor as the stable number four puts them into order and creates boundaries and form, through the principle of logos and masculine force.

Jung, however, saw the masculine principle as number three. And I've wrestled with the idea of the Empress a lot because it's so gendered. But in the german language.. the sun is "die sonne" and is feminine, not masculine - in contrast to our Western inheritance of seeing it as associated with the logos principle and all the masculine, "good" qualities.

It IS sexist. So we each have to wrestle with it and figure out for ourselves what we think about that. It's worth doing! You come away stronger for it.
 

kwaw

I have been wondering -- why does the empress come ahead of the emperor? I do understand the order of the Fool and the Magician but the Emperor and Empress are a mystery to me. I do not mean to insinuate gender issues that the males come first before females. I would just want to find a insightful basis on this one.

Takers, anyone?

???
The sequence runs from lowest to highest. The Popesse and Empress are not 'ahead' of the Emperor and Pope, but below them in seqential order - in tarot gaming the Emperor trumps the Empress, the Pope trumps the Emperor.

(In other tarot patterns and games however, the four 'papi' do not trump each other by sequence but by order of play.)
 

Minotauro

well , maybe it is becus I'm gay and all , but about al that sexist stuff...
it bogus , haha , for me anyway , we all have a femenine and masculine side , usually the women will be taught to be more "femenine" and men will be taugfh to be more masculine etc.

and some women are more creatuive and some men are more practical , but it isnt always so.


so the emperor and empress is perhaps oposite forces , true enough BUT they are a couple they are married , they're oposites and partners and neither one exists without the other one.

now what you're looking for , I think, is the numerological aproach , 3 is about birth and fertility because the power of the 1 and the vision of the 2 bring forth the 3 , and the 4 is as mentioned stability. but there are many numerologival theories , I saw a great thread about it in the marseilles sub forum
 

Aeon418

The Maternal Mother is natural and instinctive. She is organic nature.

The Paternal Father is an artificial construct. He is a "man made" creation.

The bond between mother and child is instinctive. But what about bond between father and child?
 

Zechariah13

The Paternal Father is an artificial construct. He is a "man made" creation.
i dont think i have enough time to even BEGIN to mention the problems i have with this

The bond between mother and child is instinctive. But what about bond between father and child?
And, strangely enough, recent child/developmental psychology has shown that the father-child relationship is JUST as impactful, if not MORE impactful and predictive on the development of children.


But to add my own personal 2 cents in: The Majors are a progression, from fool to world, in a sort of narrative. I dont think early means better or worse than anything, just progressing along the story. I mean, think about it, how often in literature does the adventurer(fool) go to the queen (empress) for aid? she is often the only one who can stir the King (emperor) to help instead of simply running his kingdom. Take Orpheus and Euridice for example. He didnt sway Hades' heart to get his love back, he stirred Persephone's. The Empress is simply more approachable than the Emperor, i think
 

Aeon418

i dont think i have enough time to even BEGIN to mention the problems i have with this
What's the problem? Isn't the Emperor, who's number is 4, the first emanation below the Abyss. As such he is the demiurge, or if you wish the first formulation of the ego.
Aleister Crowley said:
Sire and inceptor, Emperor and King
Of all things mortal, hail Him lord of Spring
And, strangely enough, recent child/developmental psychology has shown that the father-child relationship is JUST as impactful, if not MORE impactful and predictive on the development of children.
I wasn't talking about the development of any child. I was talking about the instinctive bond between mother and child being different to that between father and child. Given time a bond does develop between father and child, but it is not the immediate and instinctive bond that characterises mother & child.
 

Minotauro

hmmm, I think it depends , my mother has alwasy been cold and distant only when I grew up and she didnt have to take care of me we became closer , my dad on the other hand loves children , he always wanted to go camping , chat and do all those super cliche father son activities wich I HATE! my mother wanted me to shut up because she was watching tv or talking on the phone.

I believe the bonds are just diferent , perhaps the mother is more obvious , but men change when they become fathers , when they see their child for the first time , etc.

and about the social construct yes, fatherhood could be a social c. but women being super loving mothers is a social construct too , even since they are little they are taught their ultimate goal is to reproduce and not every woman wants that. men on the other hands are taught getting her pregnant is the worst possible consequence XD haha and it isnt what all men think.

if there wasnt a natural father instict , no men would want to have children, EVER.
and I mean ... some species eat their children , and some human mothers kill their babies too, its only natural , haha.

anyway , this exemplifies my answer about oposites and partners at the same time. and how both are necesary.
 

Aeon418

The following is a quote from Astrology, Aleister, & Aeon by Charles Kipp.

Kipp's premise is that one function of the Aeon of Osiris (the age of the Father gods) was to imprint collective human consciousness with the idea of the Paternal Father through religious, moral, and social control. The idea of Paternal Fatherhood may seem natural and normal to us now, but it is a trait that has had to be deliberately programmed into us to balance the instictive male drive to simply "sow his seed" and then disappear due to the fact that humans are not naturally 100% monogamous animals.
Charles Kipp said:
The significant effect of the institution of strict lifelong heterosexual monogamy was to secure the role of paternity within society. Biologically, the identity of an infants mother is not a matter of speculation. There is a visible and inexorable bond between mother and child. Once the seed is planted, however (and usually not for the intended purpose of begetting offspring), the father may become virtually irrelevant to the gestation, birth and subsequent existence of his child. The patriarchal Aeon of Osiris, therefore, codified and substantiated the uniting of the father with the mother in the responsibility for directly attending to the survival of their progeny, thus effecting, in principle, a balance between motherhood and fatherhood in the self-generating process of human perpetuity. It had been the instinctive task of the matriarchy to fashion the male gender into a state of fitness for conscious participation in the generative process of humanity. At the inception of the Aeon of Osiris, the time had come for the male gender to emerge from the womb of the matriarchy and share in the responsibility for it's own development. This theme reiterates the association of femininity with the eternal and masculinity with the temporal aspects of Being. Thus, Woman (in the generic sense) embodies what is, always has been, and forever will be, and Man (in the generic sense) embodies the temporal process of becoming.
With Kipp's last comment in mind observe how the Empress wears the girdle of the zodiac to identify herself with the eternal. Woman (in the generic sense) is the emblem of the All. But the Emperor is related to the sign of Aries on her girdle. Aries is associated with the season of Spring and therefore temporal change within the eternal All. This is one reason why the Empress proceeds the Emperor. She is the symbolic formative matrix of all existence. He is the symbolic force of temporal change within the matrix. (At least according the theories behind the Thoth deck. ;))