I don't think anyone of sound mind questions that PCS alone, with her own hand, drew the illustrations for the RWS. So what is the issue implied in Tali's remark, "I think we demonstrate clearly and without question, to put the whole matter to rest, that Pamela designed the Minors by herself at the very least." What is the "matter" that is "put to rest" in the book? I don't see any issue to be "put to rest."I've seen an early manuscript of Marcus and Tali's book, which I believe conclusively shows some of the personal and pictorial sources of the Minors - the "image files" from which she drew. Also, she was on her own for much of the time that she was producing the art. There's no question but that the Minor Arcana images were adapted from her life (and we can thank Marcus and Tali for the specifics), but that doesn't mean she wasn't also following material given or told to her by Waite......
"Key . . . since the reformation of the order in 1999." I agree that finds like this are very exciting and institute new modifications to living orders to correct "errors" or make something more "authentic." And who was the link between this German order, many other variations, and the British orders? Probably MacKenzie along with others. All of these people were drawing on every source they could find. And then Gardner drew from Crowley in creating modern Wicca . . . and so on." The mystic numbers, mystic titles, symbols, etc. of each grade of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and of the RR+AC were as well taken directly from the Gold und Rosenkreutz Order. Our order's archives contain the entire esoteric corpus of this essential Rosicrucian order. Indeed, Gold und Rosenkreutz corpus has become a key element in the RR+AC's reformed curriculum since the general reformation of the order in 1999. "
http://www.golden-dawn.com/eu/displaycontent.aspx?pageid=112-gold-rosenkreutz-order
"Whereas it is clear that the Golden Dawn is very different than the Gold und Rosenkreutz order, it also remains clear, however, that there is a continuity of development between the two orders, and that each stand in a unique place in the historical chain of the Hermetic and Rosicrucian traditions."
The piece still missing is any demonstration that Pixie was a Tarot reader and astrologer - that she knew the Tarot history and lore (not to mention occult, astrological and Masonic symbolism) separate from Waite.I don't think anyone of sound mind questions that PCS alone, with her own hand, drew the illustrations for the RWS. So what is the issue implied in Tali's remark, "I think we demonstrate clearly and without question, to put the whole matter to rest, that Pamela designed the Minors by herself at the very least." What is the "matter" that is "put to rest" in the book? I don't see any issue to be "put to rest."
It is hard to tell when you are quoting from wikipedia and when your own commentary begins and ends as it is all mixed in together. Most of what I stated was from my own research long ago and conversations with Poke Runyon when he was annotating the Cipher Manuscript.Wescott certainly agreed with this and believed Mackenzie’s had received permission to open, in Britain, an order that was said to have originated in Germany, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn.
This same GD site concludes: " .... it also remains clear, however, that there is a continuity of development between the two orders ... "
This is what has been called the "Underground Stream" - not a single lineage but branches upon branches deriving from a variety of sources.
It is hard to tell when you are quoting from wikipedia and when your own commentary begins and ends as it is all mixed in together. Most of what I stated was from my own research long ago and conversations with Poke Runyon when he was annotating the Cipher Manuscript.
Are you saying that the Tarot correspondences and links to the grades came from the 18th century German order rather than from MacKenzie? If so, do you have any direct evidence of this? I believe we are talking about the Tarot sources here and what Pixie would have known or not known.
There is a difference between evidence and proof. Not all evidence is equal, it needs to be evaluated based on what is known. The Higgs Boson was theorized before it was proved based on circumstantial evidence. Short of a definitive and conclusive statement from Waite or Smith (and even their own statements could be suspect) we have to intelligently evaluate what evidence there is and draw reasonable conclusions (that can be left open to new evidence emerging).Waite did give Pixie some info to help her design the minor cards, but we have no evidence of it.
Only to those who consider anything not absolutely proved to be, by definition, pareidolia. This perception would throw out all theories and all circumstantial evidence! For instance, this perception would say that just because someone was born and lived all their life in Spain is no proof that they knew Spanish unless there is some primary evidence of their speaking or writing Spainish without assistance from anyone else.The occult, astrological and Masonic symbolism isn't actually in the minors, its a form of 'pareidolia' .
This is what I mean. Since a published accouont by MacKenzie of his meeting with Lévi and statements by others like Westcott who knew he had met Lévi are not enough for you to believe that ANYONE ELSE can be "positive" that MacKenzie knew Lévi it is obvious that no discussion or proof except what you choose to accept is allowed to anyone else.MacKenzie knew Levi . <shrug> I cant be positive and undoubting about it (and I dont think anyone else has been or can be ) .
This is what I mean. Since a published accouont by MacKenzie of his meeting with Lévi and statements by others like Westcott who knew he had met Lévi are not enough for you to believe that ANYONE ELSE can be "positive" that MacKenzie knew Lévi it is obvious that no discussion or proof except what you choose to accept is allowed to anyone else.
http://www.trionfi.com/001/tarot/biography/tarot-history-researchers/kenneth-mackenzie.html
I quote from MacKenzie's account of visiting Lévi and his letter to Westcott in my book Women of the Golden Dawn.
